Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[Sridhar]

How does one reconcile the news about Shaurya being a hypersonic cruise missile with the following news reported by PTI only a few hours ago.

http://www.ptinews.com/news/520712_Brah ... 5-7-speeds

Indo-Russian joint venture BrahMos Aerospace is working on a hypersonic cruise missile that can touch speeds ranging from five to seven times that of sound.

Per Ajai Shukla's report, this is exactly what Shaurya is. So what is Brahmos-II? Is Shaurya just a name for B-II? In that case, why is Saraswat talking about it and not Pillai? Or were both teams working on it with Saraswat and his team coming up winners?

What is K-15 then and what are its specs? If its range exceeds 300kms, how is Russia involved?

This is all very confusing as of now.

[Singha]

the hypersonic brahmos will likely be ground/air launched and deliver a much smaller payload (300kg-ish) to reduce cost and position itself as a cheaper item than Shourya and most of IN ships and SSKs can carry it without the major stuff like VL tube that Shourya needs.

21" diameter and launch the puppy from any torpedo tubu. inclined tubes amidships could
accomodate it on IN ships.

also its not clear if B2 will use solid fuel or a improved "kerosene scramjet". Rus has used
such techniques in experimental missiles in the past.

[sanjaykumar]

Its solid-fuel, two-stage rocket accelerates the missile to six times the speed of sound before it reaches an altitude of 40 kilometers (125,000 feet), after which it levels out and cruises towards the target, powered by its onboard fuel.

Have the Indians fielded a hypersonic non-ballistic stage on top of a ballistic missile?

That is, is this a hypersonic vehicle where there is true hypersonic propulsion once boosted to Mach 6 by a solid booster? Does it really only glide? What sort of control surface area does one need to maneuvre a gliding warhead at these velocities?

I think this may be the first known application of hypersonic propulsion.

[K_Rohit]

Its solid-fuel, two-stage rocket accelerates the missile to six times the speed of sound before it reaches an altitude of 40 kilometers (125,000 feet), after which it levels out and cruises towards the target, powered by its onboard fuel.

Have the Indians fielded a hypersonic non-ballistic stage on top of a ballistic missile?

That is, is this a hypersonic vehicle where there is true hypersonic propulsion once boosted to Mach 6 by a solid booster? Does it really only glide? What sort of control surface area does one need to maneuvre a gliding warhead at these velocities?

I think this may be the first known application of hypersonic propulsion.

IMHO, this is all a misunderstanding/misquoting. Shourya is simply a ballistic missile, which after reaching max altitude can cruise for some distance before plunging at the target (at hypersonic speeds, obviously). And I also doubt that the hypersonic speed is in the cruise stage. It is probably in the terminal (ballistic) phase only. It does not make it a hypersonic guided cruise missile.

[Sridhar]

I was also thinking whether Ajai Shukla had understood incorrectly. There is no statement directly ascribed to Saraswat saying that it is a cruise missile.

This is what he says,

“I would say the Shaurya a hybrid propulsion missile”, says Dr Saraswat. “Like a ballistic missile, it is powered by solid fuel. And, like a cruise missile, it can guide itself right up to the target.”

[pralay]

Sounds like Shaurya is 'BADA BHAI' of Bramhos II ,
Afterall Russia can not breach MTCR so bramhos will never go beyond 300km
very interesting development.

[csharma]

The Chinese got all worked up after Saraawat mentioned that India was ahead of China in some aspects of missile technology.

Now India and Saraswat seem to be responding to China by coming out in the open and talking about Shaurya.

[vasu_ray]

if Shaurya is not powered during its hypersonic cruise phase, we should see similar but subsonic GPS/laser guidance kits for bombs launching them at a max. height possible from an aircraft, making the stand off range achieved proportional to the release height along with launch speed, the latter potentially can be augmented by a booster too or move towards supersonic bomb release

[Rahul M]

I was also thinking whether Ajai Shukla had understood incorrectly. There is no statement directly ascribed to Saraswat saying that it is a cruise missile.

This is what he says,

“I would say the Shaurya a hybrid propulsion missile”, says Dr Saraswat. “Like a ballistic missile, it is powered by solid fuel. And, like a cruise missile, it can guide itself right up to the target.”

I would agree, it's called a depressed trajectory ballistic missile IIRC. arun ji's article on shaurya in IDR should be a must read for all.

[Singha]

yeah unlike the B2 which has to be hypersonic and fly at low-altitude, Shourya has luxury of flying high.

B2 is more of a technical challenge imo.

[Sridhar]

True. This makes sense. Everything fits together once you see that Shaurya is not a hypersonic cruise missile. It is a ballistic missile, although with several technically advanced features (canisterized, depressed trajectory, maneuverable RV etc.).

In any case, while the fact that it is suitable for being submarine launched is not new news for this forum, it is still to good to hear it directly from the people who are closely associated with the project.

[shiv]

From Biz Std:

The Shaurya has none of these issues. Its solid-fuel, two-stage rocket accelerates the missile to six times the speed of sound before it reaches an altitude of 40 kilometers (125,000 feet), after which it levels out and cruises towards the target, powered by its onboard fuel.

[Sridhar]

Reading the news article more carefully, Saraswat points to a significant technical advance with the Shaurya - hybrid propulsion. From what I know, this is a technology that involves a solid propellant and a liquid oxidizer. In a standard solid motor, both the propellant and the oxidizer are solid - the result is that the motor cannot be shut off and restarted. Once ignited, it burns till all the propellant is exhausted. In a hybrid propulsion motor, the fact that the oxidizer is in liquid (or gaseous) state and is mixed with the propellant just before combustion implies that its flow can be throttled. i.e. the motor can be shut down, restarted and the thrust adjusted as needed. This is what gives the ability for Shaurya to have a navigation system and for it to conduct in-flight maneuvers.

This is no insignificant technological breakthrough.

[Austin]

From Biz Std:

The Shaurya has none of these issues. Its solid-fuel, two-stage rocket accelerates the missile to six times the speed of sound before it reaches an altitude of 40 kilometers (125,000 feet), after which it levels out and cruises towards the target, powered by its onboard fuel.

In simple terms it does a sustained Depressed Trajectory Flight ( @ 40Km alt ) , such flights allow Short Time Towards target and prevent early warning from ground based radar making it difficult for the opponent to get timely early warning and react. It also makes ABM interception at that altitude difficult due to manouvering based on precalculated trajectory path

This is one of modern approach towards BM development adopted by missile designers, the single stage Iskander-M is another SRBM was capable of doing a 50 km sustained flight @ M 4.

Shourya does it at far higher speed M 6 and has far greater range ,this is a potential first strike weapon ideal for SSBN.

[nrshah]

Shourya does it at far higher speed M 6 and has far greater range ,this is a potential first strike weapon ideal for SSBN.

Sorry to differ, The first strike weapon ideal for SSBN definitely has to be an SLBM with range of over 8000Kms...

During the time of war, we cannot risk the third leg our nuke delivery by going in the coastal waters to release the same. The same has to be done from another corner of the world..

Although, till such missiles comes, it is a good and compromise....

[Willy]

Wasn't Brahmos two supposed to be a 1500 km cruise missile?

[jaladipc]

I go with Shourya being a hypersonic cruize missile instead of a ballistic one.
No report ,neither Saraswath mentioned about having an RV,since the missile will never re-enter.It is just like a long range artillery,but with different values.

This being a solid fueled 2 stage 750km ,1000kg differs Brahmos II which will be a single stage air breathing scramjet with liquid hydrogen onboard and with a range of no greater than 300km.MTCR dont let the Brahmos co to do away with a greater range missile.

could be one of the reason for a parallel development of a better range high mach missile.

Given the Indian contribution in Brahmos mainly surrounds around avionics and guidance,IMHO same can be applied to Shourya to make it another deadly long range anti ship variant.Since 1000kg payload is not needed for AShM role, payload can be traded to get extra range.

Even having a single nuclear warhead of 300-500kg will kick the range towards 1200+km.
For starters having nuclear sea-based deterrent ,this is not bad at all.And it being cruising at hypersonic speeds(6M) neither chinks,nor pakis have any known /under development defences.

[D Roy]

just back from the defexpo:

1. worldwide forces are looking at shaurya type systems. scud type systems have become just too vulnerable in the boost phase.
2. the missile does not leave the atmosphere as reported.
3. it is a quasi quasi BM if you like.
4. the missile spins in flight.
5. can do pretty nifty maneuvers in the declared range envelope.

[K_Rohit]

I go with Shourya being a hypersonic cruize missile instead of a ballistic one.
No report ,neither Saraswath mentioned about having an RV,since the missile will never re-enter.It is just like a long range artillery,but with different values.

This being a solid fueled 2 stage 750km ,1000kg differs Brahmos II which will be a single stage air breathing scramjet with liquid hydrogen onboard and with a range of no greater than 300km.MTCR dont let the Brahmos co to do away with a greater range missile.

could be one of the reason for a parallel development of a better range high mach missile.

Given the Indian contribution in Brahmos mainly surrounds around avionics and guidance,IMHO same can be applied to Shourya to make it another deadly long range anti ship variant.Since 1000kg payload is not needed for AShM role, payload can be traded to get extra range.

Even having a single nuclear warhead of 300-500kg will kick the range towards 1200+km.
For starters having nuclear sea-based deterrent ,this is not bad at all.And it being cruising at hypersonic speeds(6M) neither chinks,nor pakis have any known /under development defences.

From the report itself, it would be wrong to conclude this as a cruise missile. Not enough evidence either ways.

India has yet to demonstrate the capability to build a subsonic cruise missile with significant range (Nirbhay project) and so developing a hypersonic cruise missile while having a parallel project in Brahmos 2 is highly unlikely.

I agree with Sridhar and the other guys that Shourya is a depressed trajectory ballistic missile.

[D Roy]

oh by the way,

CEP is 20 mts.

it can I guess be called an aero-ballistic/ semi-ballistic missile.

The developers said it does have some cruise missile flight profile characteristics.

[Kanson]

India has yet to demonstrate the capability to build a subsonic cruise missile with significant range (Nirbhay project) and so developing a hypersonic cruise missile while having a parallel project in Brahmos 2 is highly unlikely.

Actually it is the reverse. I mean regarding the case of subsonic and hypersonic. Subsonic is like developing jet engine and hypersonic or supersonic is like a rocket engine - no/less moving parts.

[Kanson]

How does one reconcile the news about Shaurya being a hypersonic cruise missile with the following news reported by PTI only a few hours ago.

http://www.ptinews.com/news/520712_Brah ... 5-7-speeds


Quote:
Indo-Russian joint venture BrahMos Aerospace is working on a hypersonic cruise missile that can touch speeds ranging from five to seven times that of sound.


Per Ajai Shukla's report, this is exactly what Shaurya is. So what is Brahmos-II? Is Shaurya just a name for B-II? In that case, why is Saraswat talking about it and not Pillai? Or were both teams working on it with Saraswat and his team coming up winners?

If this could be of any help...Zeenews quoting PTI says..

The hypersonic version of the BrahMos would be built for its air platforms.

http://www.zeenews.com/news604609.html#

[Kanson]

The other article talked about K-15 reaching the altitude of 20km very similar to Brahmos. It is very possible to expect a AShm role for the K-15. ( You heard it first here.)

the problems with target acquisition and real time tracking would still need to be solved. but yes, the profile does make it sound 'interesting' for the role.

Yeah, I know it will be 'interesting'. It will be more 'interesting' to read the news which talked about Agni-II having RADAR.

[tsarkar]

The powerplant doesn’t matter, whether fuelled or air breathing. Definition is decided by trajectory/flight path.

Ballistic missile follows a ballistic trajectory and is typically unpowered for the descent part, except for motors for course correction, whose ranges are minor relative to its range.

Cruise missile have flight path instead of trajectory, and typically fully powered throughout.

Its amply clear by now that Shourya does more than depressed trajectory, and is fully powered throughout. So it could be called a cruise missile, though it looks like a ballistic missile, is fully fuelled and no air breathing power plant.

[Kanson]

oh by the way,

CEP is 20 mts.

it can I guess be called an aero-ballistic/ semi-ballistic missile.

The developers said it does have some cruise missile flight profile characteristics.

Prithvi can be called as aero-ballistic...but they(officially/un-officially) never referred it as having the flight profile of a cruise missile, did they?

[K_Rohit]

The powerplant doesn’t matter, whether fuelled or air breathing. Definition is decided by trajectory/flight path.

Ballistic missile follows a ballistic trajectory and is typically unpowered for the descent part, except for motors for course correction, whose ranges are minor relative to its range.

Cruise missile have flight path instead of trajectory, and typically fully powered throughout.

Its amply clear by now that Shourya does more than depressed trajectory, and is fully powered throughout. So it could be called a cruise missile, though it looks like a ballistic missile, is fully fuelled and no air breathing power plant.

So Shourya is a high-altitude only cruise missile! Thats a new category, aint it?

[Sridhar]

Clearly, this missile is not a pure ballistic missile. A ballistic missile has a ballistic flight profile (i.e. powered at boost phase and free falling after that, little to no guidance or maneuvers). But it is not a cruise missile either - a typical definition of a cruise missile includes several elements
1. Sustained flight, typically using a jet engine or other air breathing engine
2. Lifting wings and control surfaces
3. Guidance

Shaurya might have sustained flight (though it is unclear what the exact flight profile is) and some level of navigation and guidance. However, it does not have the lifting wings and/or control surfaces that typical cruise missiles have. Additionally, it appears that it is capable of a pure ballistic flight (something that cruise missiles are not capable of). Hence, I would not really classify it as a cruise missile. Perhaps the term semi-ballistic missile or quasi-ballistic missile is more appropriate.

On a side note, I wonder what its range would be in a purely ballistic mode.

In any case, semantics aside, this is a significant technological breakthrough for India's missile program in more ways than one.

[jaladipc]

I go with Shourya being a hypersonic cruize missile instead of a ballistic one.
No report ,neither Saraswath mentioned about having an RV,since the missile will never re-enter.It is just like a long range artillery,but with different values.

This being a solid fueled 2 stage 750km ,1000kg differs Brahmos II which will be a single stage air breathing scramjet with liquid hydrogen onboard and with a range of no greater than 300km.MTCR dont let the Brahmos co to do away with a greater range missile.

could be one of the reason for a parallel development of a better range high mach missile.

Given the Indian contribution in Brahmos mainly surrounds around avionics and guidance,IMHO same can be applied to Shourya to make it another deadly long range anti ship variant.Since 1000kg payload is not needed for AShM role, payload can be traded to get extra range.

Even having a single nuclear warhead of 300-500kg will kick the range towards 1200+km.
For starters having nuclear sea-based deterrent ,this is not bad at all.And it being cruising at hypersonic speeds(6M) neither chinks,nor pakis have any known /under development defences.

From the report itself, it would be wrong to conclude this as a cruise missile. Not enough evidence either ways.

India has yet to demonstrate the capability to build a subsonic cruise missile with significant range (Nirbhay project) and so developing a hypersonic cruise missile while having a parallel project in Brahmos 2 is highly unlikely. ( )

I agree with Sridhar and the other guys that Shourya is a depressed trajectory ballistic missile.

May need few corrections in your assessment.
there is no theoretical procedure in missile development.
And whatever you said," With no sub-sonic cruise missile,no one can leap frog to hypersonic" is not valid.
As we all know,India is struggling with turbofans.Even after 25 years,no way near the final product.
But we validated and proved the world a supersonic propulsion in terms of Akash(and this is while struggling to come out with a turbofan)
And 2 national organizations realized scramjet propulsion in their labs and awaiting live model firings.(and this happened while GTRE was struggling with Kaveri)

Shourya is neither a turbofan/turbojet/scramjet..... its a hybrid rocket propulsion.Which means,its not relatively depended on any turbofan based SUB-SONIC developments/realizations.

Both are different types and different classes.

Shourya is not a ballistic missile,which makes sense that it dont carry a RV and not even a depressed ballistic trajectory. And it has an all powered level flight which is in the hypersonic regime. Its a cruise missile of Hi-hi flight.

And a parallel development of Shourya with 700+km range is highly considerable ,given Brahmos II is short legged with <300km range

[K_Rohit]

Just to check- Shourya = K-15 ??

[jaladipc]

Clearly, this missile is not a pure ballistic missile. A ballistic missile has a ballistic flight profile (i.e. powered at boost phase and free falling after that, little to no guidance or maneuvers). But it is not a cruise missile either - a typical definition of a cruise missile includes several elements
1. Sustained flight, typically using a jet engine or other air breathing engine
2. Lifting wings and control surfaces
3. Guidance

I differ.

There is no logic that a cruise missile must have this particular propulsion onleeeeee

And Lifting wings are needed onlee for those which need additional lift and not having enough thrust.
And we cant debate on having control surfaces.Since there were many alternatives for the same.
Shourya does had guidance. which is why it can strike with ~ 20 mts CEP instead of kms.

[Kanson]

Clearly, this missile is not a pure ballistic missile. A ballistic missile has a ballistic flight profile (i.e. powered at boost phase and free falling after that, little to no guidance or maneuvers). But it is not a cruise missile either - a typical definition of a cruise missile includes several elements
1. Sustained flight, typically using a jet engine or other air breathing engine
2. Lifting wings and control surfaces
3. Guidance

Shaurya might have sustained flight (though it is unclear what the exact flight profile is) and some level of navigation and guidance. However, it does not have the lifting wings and/or control surfaces that typical cruise missiles have. Additionally, it appears that it is capable of a pure ballistic flight (something that cruise missiles are not capable of). Hence, I would not really classify it as a cruise missile. Perhaps the term semi-ballistic missile or quasi-ballistic missile is more appropriate.

On a side note, I wonder what its range would be in a purely ballistic mode.

In any case, semantics aside, this is a significant technological breakthrough for India's missile program in more ways than one.

By this definition even the passenger or Airliner can be called as semi/quasi-ballistic. Becoz it has ballistic take-off. Since its major portion of flight is cruise, we always use the term "a/c cruising along". Even Brahmos missile has ballistic take-off and later ramjet picks up. Shaurya is what it is - a hypersonic cruising missile.

[vipins]

Old link to add few things about Shourya.

What was outstanding about the Shourya’s success was the performance of its indigenous navigation system with the help of a ring-laser gyroscope, Mr. Natarajan said on Thursday. He called it “a sophisticated navigation and guidance system produced by the Research Centre, Imarat” (RCI) in Hyderabad.

After the Shourya was fired from its canister, it rose to a height of 50 km and then flew horizontally to reach its targeted site. As it reached its maximum speed, it led to the missile heating up to 700 degrees Celsius. To cool the missile, it was rolled.

only several hundred degrees Celsius was generated during Shourya’s re-entry.

DRDO sources said that although the Shourya needed a silo with a maximum depth of 50 metres to lift off, it could be launched from 30-metre deep silos. It had a booster which fired underground and another which fired in the air.

Just to check- Shourya = K-15 ??

W. Selvamurthy, Chief Controller (R&D), DRDO, said the Shourya missile provided the country with “a second strike capability” because it was a variant of the under-water launched K-15 missile (Sagarika).

[Sridhar]

Vipins: Thanks for posting this article. It clears the air significantly.

Shourya is not a cruise missile. It is also not the first quasi-ballistic missile. You can look up other such missiles being developed by other countries. But it is a big deal for us as it involves a whole set of new technologies that had to be mastered and provides a whole set of new capabilities.

[Sridhar]

By this definition even the passenger or Airliner can be called as semi/quasi-ballistic. Becoz it has ballistic take-off. Since its major portion of flight is cruise, we always use the term "a/c cruising along". Even Brahmos missile has ballistic take-off and later ramjet picks up. Shaurya is what it is - a hypersonic cruising missile.

Ballistic does not refer to the mode of launch but to the flight profile.

[Kanson]

I consider asking members to define what is ballistic and cruise is an insult. A ballistic and cruise differ the way their velocity changes. A missile can have multiple ballistic profile as seen in multi stage ballistic missile or single ballistic profile it it has a single stage. There is major difference between Iskander and Shaurya, if anyone can read the fine print and compare the entire profile. For ex, Iskander in the boot phase propels the missile to its highest mach number and then it settles around 4-5 mach. But Shaurya gradually reaches the mach 6 from the intial phase to cruise phase.

Ballistic does not refer to the mode of launch but to the flight profile

True thats why Shaurya is preferred to be called as cruising missile as the major portion of the flight is in cruising phase.

[Sridhar]

It doesn't really matter what it is classified as, as long as we know what it is capable of, does it? I suggest we let this question rest.

[geeth]

No part of the powered flight is "ballistic". Vice Versa, Ballistic trajectory starts only after the powered flight is over...

[Sridhar]

Precisely. Like I mentioned earlier, a ballistic missile necessarily has a free falling part to its flight profile. And the Shaurya has such a free-falling phase as per the Hindu article. It is not powered during the terminal phase.

Here's the quote from that article.

....according to M. Natarajan, Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister. Its velocity gradually tapered off during the remaining 300 km of its flight and then it plunged vertically over the targeted site in the Bay of Bengal.

[NRao]

Feb 17, 2010 :: Arihant to be armed with ballistic missiles

For what it is worth:

The man steering India’s highly classified nuclear-powered submarine programme has acknowledged for the first time that the warship will be armed with ballistic missiles.

Vice-Admiral D.P.S. Varma (retd), Director General, Advanced Technology Vehicle (ATV) project, told HT at DEFEXPO-2010, “The K-15 submarine-launched ballistic missiles jolly well be there on INS Arihant when it is inducted into the Navy. The N-sub should hopefully be with the Navy by the end of 2011.”

[tsarkar]

K_Rohit –

“Shourya is a high-altitude only cruise missile”

Altitude doesn’t matter in deciding the designation. Even Qassam rockets are ballistic and sea skimmers are missiles.

Sridhar –

“But it is not a cruise missile either - a typical definition of a cruise missile includes several elements”

Neither of the three parameters listed by you are used to decide the designation

“1. Sustained flight, typically using a jet engine or other air breathing engine”
A hang glider or Zepplin is also capable of sustained flight. So definition is decided not by sustained flight, but controlled flight. Propulsion mode doesn’t matter, either.

“2. Lifting wings and control surfaces”
No. Missiles can use vectored thrust with NO control surfaces. Control surfaces definitely assist cruise, but not mandatory.

“3. Guidance”
All missiles are guided. The unguided ones are called rockets, like SNEB 68mm, Russian 80mm etc. So Qassam is a rocket and not missile.

Conventional logic indicates Shourya is a depressed trajectory ballistic missile, however the exuberance of the scientific community & published data indicates it has the versatality of a cruise missile.