Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Feb 2010 22:54

tsarkar, In the mid-90s ISRO had a program to develop hypersonic rockets. There were two launches atop a ASLV booster and then no more follow-up reports. Maybe it morphed into this version.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 17 Feb 2010 23:01

Yes, hypersonic rocket flight was an established goal of the Indian scientific community from late 80's to late 90's. And all of it went silent this decade. So I concur with your deduction that a lot of research has been happening in India to enable the capabilities exhibited by Shourya.

Plus the confidence shown by Navy/Army is different than the enthusiam (or lack of it) shown for other systems. I mean, everyone is positive & exuberant about Shourya.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Feb 2010 23:05

Shourya can do both a pure BM flight if you look at the RV it does show its a high beta RV and capable of reentry , if they do a pure BM flight they will certainly get far higher range if they fire at energy efficient trajectory but that would also make it vulnerable for early detection and ABM system.

Shourya is also capable of sustained DT flight typically at 40 - 50 km at hypersonic speed which reduces its range but gives it effective punch , there is a trade off and one also need to take care of heat generated by such sustained DT flight and manage it.

One can give any fancy name one wants , but what it does is what can be accurately termed as sustained DT flights.

The Iskander-M does the same profile at lower speed @ M 4 , the russian call the same trajectory as Quasi Ballistic path link

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Feb 2010 23:21

negi wrote:^ I wonder if reducing heat signature is practically viable on an expendable platform , however they say Russia developed the Topol-M keeping in mind the vulnerability of the BMs in boost phase from ABM measures which rely on early warning ; it is said Topol-M first stage boosts the missile into more energetic mid course in a very short span of time compared to old generation missiles leaving the adversary with very little time to react as far as boost phase interception is concerned.

Paging Austin for more details.

Topol-M boost phase flight time has been reduced by 4.5 times compared to its liquid fuel cousin SS-18 according to its designer , i have seen figures for SS-18 boost phase flight varying from 300 to 700 sec.

What they do is typically manage the thermal and RF signature of the manouverable warhead and decoys that accompany it making target discrimination extremely difficult if not impossible , the manouvering warhead can itself give a tough time for ABM system.

Any ABM system will have a hard time dealing with Agni-2/3 manouvering warhead and A-5 with its MIRV will carry decoys with manouvering warhead , i think Ajay Shukla confirmed some time back that A-5 MIRV will have manouvering warhead

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 17 Feb 2010 23:23

Instead of focusing on the semantics, let's discuss the capabilities.

Let me repeat a question from before. In a pure ballistic configuration, what would be the range of this missile (given its known parameters such as propellant loading)? Any informed guesses (or better than that)? This is an important question since it would be useful to know what its range is as an SLBM, with say a 500 Kg payload. Austin? Anybody else?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Feb 2010 23:26

Sridhar wrote:Instead of focusing on the semantics, let's discuss the capabilities.

In a pure ballistic configuration, what would be the range of this missile (given its known parameters such as propellant loading)? Any informed guesses (or better than that)? This is an important question since it would be useful to know what its range is as an SLBM, with say a 500 Kg payload. Austin? Anybody else?

Some time back Arun_S gave a figure of atleast ~ 1500 km for a pure BM flight all things being equal , Does some one have Arun_S article on Shourya which came in IDR ?

DT flight severely dent the range of BM , I have seen figures in literature for SLBM of greater than 8000 km BM range achieving ~ 3000 km for a DT flight at an altitude of ~ 200 - 300 km.

BTW DT flight between the 2 biggies were considered destabilizing due to lack of warning time and at one time there were proposal brought out to ban DT flights all together but that didnt go too far.

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 17 Feb 2010 23:29

Thanks. One correction that would need to be made is that this is a hybrid propulsion missile, whereas it was earlier assumed to be a solid missile. That would change the specific impulse (Isp) and hence the range calculations. Typically, hybrid propulsion has higher Isp than pure solid (but this is of course dependent on the specific propellant/oxidizer combination). So perhaps one should think of the 1500 kms range as a lower bound.

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 17 Feb 2010 23:33

ramana wrote:tsarkar, In the mid-90s ISRO had a program to develop hypersonic rockets. There were two launches atop a ASLV booster and then no more follow-up reports. Maybe it morphed into this version.

I don't quite understand. All ISRO rockets including the earliest sounding rockets and of course the SLV-3 and ASLV were hypersonic. So what exactly was ISRO testing on top of the ASLV booster?

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 17 Feb 2010 23:34

Problem is that fuel mass fraction is unknown, ISP is unknown, payload is unknown. And DRDO's figure of 750km is the one number that the range is not.

From various descriptions, of course deliberately garbled, this missile carries a payload vehicle that describes a non-ballistic flight path, is powered, and has terminal guidance.

A scramjet/O2 harvesting system is a distinct possibility, unless it carries oxidizer for flight at 50 km.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 17 Feb 2010 23:35

Arun_S article clearly puts range of shaurya @ 1200 km for 500 kg and 1800 km for 200 kg payloads.
http://www.indiaresearch.org/Shourya_Missile.pdf

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 17 Feb 2010 23:40

I think the so called hybrid propulsion is two different type of solid propellant used with different burn rates to get Isp conditioned for flight trajectory , which means say a boost phase will give highest Isp while a cruise/DT phase will give slightly lower sustained Isp with longer burn solid fuel grain.

Just guessing here i could be wrong.

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 17 Feb 2010 23:40

Since you are so stuck up about precision, here are the corrected statements (the meanings would have been obvious when read in the context of the entire thread, but here it is for the record)

tsarkar wrote: “But it is not a cruise missile either - a typical definition of a cruise missile includes several elements”

Neither of the three parameters listed by you are used to decide the designation

“1. Sustained flight, typically using a jet engine or other air breathing engine”
A hang glider or Zepplin is also capable of sustained flight. So definition is decided not by sustained flight, but controlled flight. Propulsion mode doesn’t matter, either.

Sustained powered flight. I hope you also understand the word 'typical'. It does not mean that it is a necessary condition.

“2. Lifting wings and control surfaces”
No. Missiles can use vectored thrust with NO control surfaces. Control surfaces definitely assist cruise, but not mandatory.

This I believe is a part of the definition of cruise missiles.

“3. Guidance”
All missiles are guided. The unguided ones are called rockets, like SNEB 68mm, Russian 80mm etc. So Qassam is a rocket and not missile.

"Guidance through the course of the flight." Guided ballistic missiles are only guided in the initial phase and perhaps to a limited extent at the terminal phase. Cruise missiles are guided all the way through.

Conventional logic indicates Shourya is a depressed trajectory ballistic missile, however the exuberance of the scientific community & published data indicates it has the versatality of a cruise missile.

Austin's link pointed to the term 'exoatmospheric cruise missile' for the Iskander, in addition to the quasi-ballistic term. I guess Shourya is somewhere on the continuum between a ballistic and cruise missile.

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 17 Feb 2010 23:41

sanjaykumar wrote:A scramjet/O2 harvesting system is a distinct possibility, unless it carries oxidizer for flight at 50 km.

Saraswat has clarified that it has hybrid propulsion - i.e. solid propellant with a separate (probably liquid) oxidizer.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Feb 2010 23:43

Sridhar, it was called ABR-200 and google says was tested twice in 1992 and no more info after that. It was atop a Rohini rocket and then gets launched.

Just a data point. Might or might not be related to this.

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 17 Feb 2010 23:44

Vavinash:

Thanks for posting Arun's article. The new information since then is that it has hybrid propulsion. Some adjustment is needed as a result of that.

Austin: Thanks. Will look up more info on this.

Ramana: Thanks. The name 'ABR' might stand for air breathing rocket (but that is not what the Shourya is). This might be related to ISRO's eventual plans to have a reusable launch vehicle with an air breathing rocket. Will look that up as well.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 17 Feb 2010 23:47

Austin wrote: Does some one have Arun_S article on Shourya which came in IDR ?

I've the draft of that article he sent me before publishing. I'm not sure if it is the same as the published one. give me a ping if you need it.

edit :

Sridhar, it was called ABR-200 and google says was tested twice in 1992 and no more info after that. It was atop a Rohini rocket and then gets launched.

ABR indeed stood for air breathing rocket as austin says. I always thought it was related to the air breathing hypersonic program, not this.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Feb 2010 23:47

Sridhar wrote:
sanjaykumar wrote:A scramjet/O2 harvesting system is a distinct possibility, unless it carries oxidizer for flight at 50 km.
Saraswat has clarified that it has hybrid propulsion - i.e. solid propellant with a separate (probably liquid) oxidizer.

Sridhar where did he say this? Because DRDO has a program called HSTDV.

DRDO's answer for ISRO’s RLV : Hypersonic Technology Demonstrator Vehicle (HSTDV)

Why :
A technology demonstrator to master aerodynamic design, aero-thermal design, materials and hot structures at hypersonic flight mach numbers

How:
1. HSTDV is attached to a rocket
2. When the rocket reaches 35 KM, a Cruise Vehicle (CV) containing a single scramjet engine burning kerosene fuel is released
3. Cruise Vehicle (CV) attains hypersonic speed at 6.5 mach number and operates autonomously for 20 secs.

Lead:
Defense Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL), Hyderabad

So this could be an evolution/implementation of that?

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 17 Feb 2010 23:50

Austin wrote:I think the so called hybrid propulsion is two different type of solid propellant used with different burn rates to get Isp conditioned for flight trajectory , which means say a boost phase will give highest Isp while a cruise/DT phase will give slightly lower sustained Isp with longer burn solid fuel grain.

Just guessing here i could be wrong.

I don't think this is it (though a hybrid propulsion does not preclude what you are saying). I think when Saraswat refers to hybrid propulsion with solid propellant, he is referring to a system where there is a solid propellant ignited using a separate liquid oxidizer (say nitrous oxide or LOX). The purpose is to be able to shut down, restart and throttle the engine as needed (by controlling the flow of the oxidizer). This is consistent with Shaurya's capabilities. A pure solid rocket motor has the propellant and oxidizer mixed together, and once ignited it cannot be shut down and restarted.

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 17 Feb 2010 23:53

Ramana,

This is what Saraswat says in Ajai Shukla's article

“I would say the Shaurya a hybrid propulsion missile”, says Dr Saraswat. “Like a ballistic missile, it is powered by solid fuel. And, like a cruise missile, it can guide itself right up to the target.”

Cannot be more direct than this. The only interpretation is that it has hybrid propulsion of the type I have described.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Feb 2010 23:59

Yes I went back and read the same. He sure says its hybrid propuslion but in same breath says it starts out "like a Ballistic Missile and guides itself like a cruise missile".

I think the hybridization is in the concept of making a B/M fly like a C/M in the upper atmosphere. Its not in the traditional use of hybrid fuel(solid and liquid) engine.

Regardless of what powers it, its quite a complex vehicle and should defeat most of its challengers.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Feb 2010 00:02

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scramjet_programs

Russia had some good stuff going...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Feb 2010 00:07

sridhar ji, any liquid used, either as a fuel or oxidizer will be unlikely for a wooden round missile that is designed to be in 'ready to fire' mode for years on end.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 18 Feb 2010 00:12

Sridhar,

I'm very much aware of what Mr. Natarajan said. I also know what Saraswat said describing Shaurya as one of top ten missile of its class. Agni- I has a depressed trajectory for 700km. Prithvi like Shaurya uses the body lift to generate range. Agni - II has HAM to guide the missile to the target. All these thing doesnt earned the reputation of calling them as one of the top ten missile. The idea of the program is to reudce the drag at hypersonic regime at lower altitude( so far 50, 40, 20 km are reported). Just a recount of what Cruise is: Its a flight phase which provides just enough thrust to overcome the drag to maintain the flight. In short - the program is all about that.

For what its worth, from Ajai blog:

MiG said...
Wow! This puts the Shaurya in a completely new perspective! If India has indeed perfected such a missile, it will have in its arsenal a weapon that no other country does.

However, something still puzzles me. You say that "Its solid-fuel, two-stage rocket accelerates the missile to six times the speed of sound before it reaches an altitude of 40 kilometers... after which it levels out and cruises towards the target, powered by its onboard fuel"

What kind of propulsion does this missile use in the cruise phase? If I recall correctly, a ramjet cannot work at those speeds. So is it powered by a scramjet? Or does the rocket motor boost the missile to Mach 6, after which it slows down before the ramjet powers up?

Thanks in advance

Broadsword said:

MiG:

I'm not 100% sure, but you are probably right.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 18 Feb 2010 00:20

Austin wrote:DT flight severely dent the range of BM , I have seen figures in literature for SLBM of greater than 8000 km BM range achieving ~ 3000 km for a DT flight at an altitude of ~ 200 - 300 km.

would this range be true if after the ballistic phase in Agni-5, the 3rd stage+RV dunks into the atmosphere say 1000km from the designated point of impact

the 3rd stage in Agni-5 if replaced by the hybrid propulsion motor could sustain the hypersonic cruise flight at 50kms altitude and the day a working scramjet takes over the same can happen at even lower altitudes making it even harder for the ABM systems

so Brahmos 2 might be the demonstrator of a scramjet based hypersonic engine

now a MIRV after RV separation from the bus will not have a 3rd stage to sustain however it compensates by the decoys to defeat the ABM systems

it would be a day of reckoning if we get the Chinese to offer a treaty both on missiles and nukes

anyways after the powered cruise phase what is the speed of the Shourya RV at impact point?

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 18 Feb 2010 00:26

SaiK wrote:Is it required to have hypersonic speeds for Air to Surface/Land missiles (benefits against B-I)? Since its optimized for air launches, what kind of targets are we talking with this hypersonic B-II?

One possibility: SEAD operations like taking out S-300 systems from stand-off ranges. Even if its expensive, we might use B-II if it can guarantee a high kill probability

negi · Post by **negi** » 18 Feb 2010 00:39

Shaurya has two stages so plenty of room there for having different fuel/grain composition to achieve a tailored thrust profile to operate in specific regimes . As far as 'cruising' or guiding the missile until target is concerned I guess so long as the round has enough KE it can be guided to the target even during terminal 'coasting' phase so for all practical purposes it can be called as a cruise missile and since its speed and flight profile are different from subsonic cruise missiles its CEP would vary accordingly.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 18 Feb 2010 00:39

AFAIK, Exocet is a solid fueled cruise missile. So, the technology exists for quite sometime.
Irrespective of the actual definition of hybrid propulsion, I do not think Sourya uses liquid oxidizer. Such success(similar to firing of cryo engine or realisaion of an aesa building block) will be reported in the news or techfocus as independent technological achievement of a defence lab much before actual utilisation in a weapon system. Till date, no such news. Austin's explanation of different gains seems to be most likely scenario.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 18 Feb 2010 00:54

negi wrote:As far as 'cruising' or guiding the missile until target is concerned I guess so long as the round has enough KE it can be guided to the target even during terminal 'coasting' phase so for all practical purposes it can be called as a cruise missile and since its speed and flight profile are different from subsonic cruise missiles its CEP would vary accordingly.

even during coasting phase the RV shouldn't be vulnerable to ABM systems, I wonder if we test this against our own s-300 systems?

in theory you can trade the KE for range but become vulnerable

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 18 Feb 2010 00:57

Rahul M wrote:sridhar ji, any liquid used, either as a fuel or oxidizer will be unlikely for a wooden round missile that is designed to be in 'ready to fire' mode for years on end.

Rahul,

As you are likely aware, having a liquid oxidizer does not mean that the missile is not storable for long periods of time or that it requires complicated pre-launch preparation. Nitrous oxide (laughing gas), for instance, is a possible oxidizer that is a stable liquid under compression at room temperature and can be stored for long periods quite safely.

I am quite convinced as of now that
a. This does not involve a scramjet engine (otherwise Saraswat would have mentioned it and also the scramjet being pursued by DRDO involves a liquid - kerosene - as propellant).
b. This is a restartable hybrid propulsion engine, with solid propellant and separate oxidizer (there is no info on the state of the oxidizer, but I am presuming it is liquid).

Maybe I am wrong, but time will tell.

negi · Post by **negi** » 18 Feb 2010 01:11

I tried to google up , can we have some launch sequences of a Hybrid propellant based rocket/missile ? I am wondering if we can make out a Hybrid propellant based missile from a solid/liquid fueled missile by looking at the exhaust plume . Shaurya's first stage launch sequence is very similar to any solid fueled missile .

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 18 Feb 2010 01:17

jaladipc wrote:I go with Shourya being a hypersonic cruize missile instead of a ballistic one.
No report ,neither Saraswath mentioned about having an RV,since the missile will never re-enter.It is just like a long range artillery,but with different values.

This being a solid fueled 2 stage 750km ,1000kg differs Brahmos II which will be a single stage air breathing scramjet with liquid hydrogen onboard and with a range of no greater than 300km.MTCR dont let the Brahmos co to do away with a greater range missile.

could be one of the reason for a parallel development of a better range high mach missile.

Given the Indian contribution in Brahmos mainly surrounds around avionics and guidance,IMHO same can be applied to Shourya to make it another deadly long range anti ship variant.Since 1000kg payload is not needed for AShM role, payload can be traded to get extra range.

Even having a single nuclear warhead of 300-500kg will kick the range towards 1200+km.
For starters having nuclear sea-based deterrent ,this is not bad at all.And it being cruising at hypersonic speeds(6M) neither chinks,nor pakis have any known /under development defences.

I dont think Shaurya has terminal guidance - i.e. a seeker. Which is why it will not be a "longer range Brahmos" in the AShM role. The guidance system of Shaurya from reports so far is RLG. Given its depressed trajectory and capability to maneuver at hypersonic speeds & still be acccurate, the RLG's performance is pretty amazing. That being said, an RLG is an inertial navigation system and cannot replace a terminal seeker. Brahmos must have close to pinpoint accuracy to take out a ship. Shaurya can perhaps take out a carrier group if nuclear-armed (we had discussions about this in the context of a new Chinese ballistic missile which will supposedly threaten U.S carrier groups).

Added later: I was going through Ajai Shukla's blog. And he states

Next, my article brings out the very important point about terminal guidance in the Shaurya.

Hmmm ... this is interesting. What is meant by terminal guidance here??

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 18 Feb 2010 01:25

Sridhar wrote:
Rahul M wrote:sridhar ji, any liquid used, either as a fuel or oxidizer will be unlikely for a wooden round missile that is designed to be in 'ready to fire' mode for years on end.
Rahul,

As you are likely aware, having a liquid oxidizer does not mean that the missile is not storable for long periods of time or that it requires complicated pre-launch preparation. Nitrous oxide (laughing gas), for instance, is a possible oxidizer that is a stable liquid under compression at room temperature and can be stored for long periods quite safely.

I am quite convinced as of now that
a. This does not involve a scramjet engine (otherwise Saraswat would have mentioned it and also the scramjet being pursued by DRDO involves a liquid - kerosene - as propellant).
b. This is a restartable hybrid propulsion engine, with solid propellant and separate oxidizer (there is no info on the state of the oxidizer, but I am presuming it is liquid).

Maybe I am wrong, but time will tell.

Agreed on (a) - if it was a scramjet, we would have seen air intakes on the missile (unless its encased). Plus Ajai Shukla's report states that it is air-independent

Why are you convinced about (b)? There have been nothing in the reports that say anything about re-starting or variable speeds

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 18 Feb 2010 01:38

negi wrote:I tried to google up , can we have some launch sequences of a Hybrid propellant based rocket/missile ? I am wondering if we can make out a Hybrid propellant based missile from a solid/liquid fueled missile by looking at the exhaust plume . Shaurya's first stage launch sequence is very similar to any solid fueled missile .

Shaurya's 2nd stage is attributed with hybrid propulsion, however according to Arunji even this stage is expended before reaching 50km altitude meaning the RV is on its own during the powered cruise phase?

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 18 Feb 2010 01:39

India ready to export cruise missiles

A senior company executive, who asked not to be named, told AFP "serious negotiations" were under way with South Africa, Brazil and Chile for a maritime version of the missile while Indonesia has been offered a land-based BrahMos.
The joint venture stipulates the missile cannot be sold to "unfriendly countries," the 10-billion-dollar joint venture's marketing chief Praveen Pathak added.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 18 Feb 2010 05:14

This seens to be the GPS / GLONASS later IRNSS guided bomb kit
From Livefist:

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 18 Feb 2010 07:04

Craig Alpert wrote:India ready to export cruise missiles
A senior company executive, who asked not to be named, told AFP "serious negotiations" were under way with South Africa, Brazil and Chile for a maritime version of the missile while Indonesia has been offered a land-based BrahMos.
The joint venture stipulates the missile cannot be sold to "unfriendly countries," the 10-billion-dollar joint venture's marketing chief Praveen Pathak added.

Expect MTCR to restrict missiles to 275 Kms.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 18 Feb 2010 08:51

NRao wrote: Expect MTCR to restrict missiles to 275 Kms.

Still quite capable!!! Put the missile 100 km inside the terriorty and it will still be able to target enemy sites 175 kms away, keep it closer at say 75 Kms, it can target 200 kms away.. That's no puny distance, when blowing up bunkers, and important landmarks, especially since the list of countries have borders surrounded with rivals along that line!!!!

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 18 Feb 2010 09:12

Austin wrote:I think the so called hybrid propulsion is two different type of solid propellant used with different burn rates to get Isp conditioned for flight trajectory , which means say a boost phase will give highest Isp while a cruise/DT phase will give slightly lower sustained Isp with longer burn solid fuel grain.

Just guessing here i could be wrong.

I was also thinking along the same lines..

It is not only the flight profile that differentiates the "ballistic" and "cruise" missiles in general.. but, all of the operational so called cruise missiles are air-breathing... all of the so called ballistic missiles are non-air breathing.

in that sense - no way Shaurya is going to be a air-breathing cruise missile.. all it can do is a fairly long sustained flight at its peak altitude... and probably has some amount of fuel left during its terminal phase to help it execute ABM-evasive manuevers...

In trying to put it in a "purely layman's language", Col Shook Law created a little bit of unintentional confusion/speculation..

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Feb 2010 09:50

rakall wrote:I was also thinking along the same lines..

It is not only the flight profile that differentiates the "ballistic" and "cruise" missiles in general.. but, all of the operational so called cruise missiles are air-breathing... all of the so called ballistic missiles are non-air breathing.

in that sense - no way Shaurya is going to be a air-breathing cruise missile.. all it can do is a fairly long sustained flight at its peak altitude... and probably has some amount of fuel left during its terminal phase to help it execute ABM-evasive manuevers...

In trying to put it in a "purely layman's language", Col Shook Law created a little bit of unintentional confusion/speculation..

.

Indeed unnecessary confusion by Col Shook .... Scramjet, Ramjet,Cruise missile and what not.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 18 Feb 2010 10:01

Found this interesting graph in the following link which was posted in DefExpo thread...
http://sayaredefenceworld.blogspot.com/ ... graph.html

See the graph carefully... that sets a lot of speculation about the range of Agni-3... the altitude & time of flight (at nearly mid-flight) coincide with the 800-900sec time of flight and 350-400km altitude generally reported in news. And now look at the range achieved...

so most likely in the most recent test the Agni3 was tested (hopefully with a max payload) to a max range of 3000km.. Nothing more..