Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[Philip]

A good report here on Shaurya,with a video clip.
http://www.defense-update.com/products/ ... 70210.html

Excerpt:

At Defexpo 2010 the missile was displayed without the container shroud, mounted on a land-mobile erector-launcher. According to V K Saraswat of the India Defense Research and Development Organization (DRDO), the Shaurya can be launched from under water as well as from land. The missile is contained in a gas-filled canister stored inside the submarine's hull and uses a two-stage solid propelled rocket after launch. To achieve high accuracy, the missile is capable performing trajectory corrections using an on-board inertial navigation system. Described as a 'hybrid' missile, Shaurya can shape its descent trajectory, posing a difficult target for missile interceptors. Overall, the missile has an accuracy of 20-30 meters Circular Error Probable (CEP), contributing to effective conventional attack capability, in addition to the nuclear strike option.

In the future, Indian Navy Submarines to Deploy with a mix of Shaurya and Bramhmos missiles. The Shaurya shares the same canisters already used by the Brahmos tactical, supersonic cruise missile, offering the submarine a wide range of surface attack options. Shaurya made the first launch in 2008, nine months after the launch of the K-15. The first Submarine launched Brahmos test is expected by mid-2010.

The supersonic Brahmos will also be a principal missile to equip the six Indian Navy Project 75 submarines, for which the Indians are considering the Russian Amur class sub. Another sub being considered is the German Class-214. Plans to install the missile in the fifth and sixth Scorpene class submarines were cancelled after the Indian Navy decided to equip these subs with air independent propulsion (AIP), thus extending the submarine to its maximum length.

[Victor]

If the missile never leaves the atmosphere and flies at a fixed altitude for most of its flight, it is a cruise missile. The "ballistic" part maybe has to do with the launch booster stage which gets the missile to its cruising height quickly after which a scramjet takes over. Similar concept to hypersonic cruise missiles still on the drawing board like the Boeing X-51.

The nose of the Shourya at launch looks like a cap that will be discarded after an underwater launch. If so, this would only be necessary if the snout had a Brahmos-like intake for an air-breathing engine.

[MN Kumar]

This seens to be the GPS / GLONASS later IRNSS guided bomb kit
From Livefist:

That looks like an air launched Torpedo. The Aircraft in the background might be the Boeing P8I.

[Sanku]

The nose of the Shourya at launch looks like a cap that will be discarded after an underwater launch. If so, this would only be necessary if the snout had a Brahmos-like intake for an air-breathing engine.

There are Shourya video clips with nose cone being blown off and other static pics without the nose cone, none of them show any air breathing signs.

I read Arun_S article once more -- that can be surely taken as definfitve.

Some things that are clear are K 15 program --> Led to Shourya and Sagarika --> they are at least ballistic in the sense of ballistic launch -- though they have a launch phase IR suppression ideas implemented.

What we know furthere from the article as folks pointed out are
1) Hybrid propulsion
2) Shaping the descent.

Its pretty certain that Shaurya is what Austin is talking of -- a well implement DT ballistic missile with neat feature for heat dissipation and additional fancy stuff for final entry profile.

The only open question in my mind is what is hybrid about the propulsion system? Two different types motors for different stages? Or a restartable motor like Sridhar mentions?

Fun times never the less.

[shukla]

Israeli Rafael & Indian BEL join hands for JV on advanced missile systems...

http://www.livemint.com/2010/02/1722214 ... ans-J.html

[K_Rohit]

X-post...to see if anyone has an answer to this Q..

HAL officials today said that over 15 more ground runswould be carried out for the Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), before it takes off for its first flight, which is likely towards the end of February or first week of March. So far all ground runs have been successful.

Just curious...what anti-radiation missiles are carried by our helos? Do MI-25/35s carry them and will the same ones be used by LCH?

Also, I imagine air-to-surface missiles implies anti-tank missiles. Right?

[tsarkar]

Sridhar,

The only reason I clarified was to ensure we understand what exactly is meant by ballistic missile or cruise missile capability and then benchmark Shourya capabilities against them to understand what the advancement in technology are.

I do respect your right to have a different PoV, but we need to align ourselves with facts.

“Sustained powered flight.”

Smerch, Katyusha, S-24 240 mm rockets in direct fire mode have sustained powered flights. Yet are they called cruise missiles? No, because their flight path, though powered, isn’t CONTROLLED. That is what differentiates a cruise missile from others, in the sense its flight path can be controlled throughout.

“This I believe is a part of the definition of cruise missiles.”

No, there are missiles that cruise (or even climb) without lifting surfaces like AGM-69 with a 200 km range and Kh-15 with 400 km range. Glide bombs have lifting surfaces and long ranges, but no control over flight path, so they are just bombs and not missiles.

"Guided ballistic missiles are only guided in the initial phase and perhaps to a limited extent at the terminal phase."

No, BM use INS, gyros, accelerometers and/or ground beacons and are guided throughout.

Rakall -
The reason most cruise missiles are air breathing is to save on the oxidizer weight. As we all can assess using publicly available information, India is strong in rocketry and weak in engine technology. So if we make a cruise missile that uses rocketry, then it’s a significant achievement.

Prem –
INS is a good enough for terminal homing for static targets. French ASMP cruise missile in service today uses nothing more than an INS. However for targeting moving targets, a seeker is necessary. However Shourya is too expensive for anything smaller than an aircraft carrier. Typical Shourya targets would be POL depots, ammo dumps, power stations, airfields, shipyards, railway junctions, etc, for which, like ASMP, INS will suffice.

Austin –
You are correct in identifying dual thrust solid propulsion. The only other missile class that flies similar to Shourya today are LRSAM & BVRAAM. Most BVRAAMs & long range SAM like Standard and Barak-8 use dual thrust to have a boost-sustain-terminal boost profile quite similar to Shourya.

Sanku –
Solid fuelled motors aren’t restartable, however, propellant grains can be arranged as per the desired burn profile to ensure propulsion supports the requisite flight path.

Rohit - AFAIK, no helicopter anywhere carries any anti radiation missile. They fly too low and too slow for effective SEAD, though US did use Apaches for this role in Iraq using laser guided hellfires and unguided FFAR.

[Sanku]

tsarkar, what according to you is Shourya -- if you were to chose a category name(s) what would your take be? Just curious?

Also whats your take on hybrid motors? Whats your understanding of what Dr Swarswat said?

[rakall]

Sridhar,


Rakall -
The reason most cruise missiles are air breathing is to save on the oxidizer weight. As we all can assess using publicly available information, India is strong in rocketry and weak in engine technology. So if we make a cruise missile that uses rocketry, then it’s a significant achievement.


.

Right.. but the message I wanted to convey by saying "airbreathing" is that the "dont leave atmosphere" thing.. Most ballistic missiles (of longer range) leave the atmosphere -- and they are powered only for initial few seconds of their flight... almost none of the cruise missiles do -- they are powered through the entire flight..

And in my opinion there is nothing in Shaurya that qualifies it as a typical cruise missile.. that part of confusion/speculation, IMHO, is due to "Lost in Translation".

Consider Agni-3 -- out of the 800-900secs of its flight time it is powered only for 160-180seconds split between the two stages.. typically the motor burn is over long before it reaches the max altitude.. The question is how long is the Shaurya "powered" during its flight?

In Shaurya - what they would have done is to provide some kind of thrust even after it reaches its max altitude.. may be like the low burn motor that Austin referred to.. Even in that case the low burn has to occur for over 300-400secs (for being effective even after reaching 40km altitude)... that looks unlikely !!! Or it is a on-of burn -- tough for solid propellant motors.

What magic did they do?

[K_Rohit]

Rohit - AFAIK, no helicopter anywhere carries any anti radiation missile. They fly too low and too slow for effective SEAD, though US did use Apaches for this role in Iraq using laser guided hellfires and unguided FFAR.

Thanks for this tsarkar- this is exactly what I thought. But if you notice the info board next to the LCH model display, it mentions anti-radiation missiles. Hence, was curious! Is this just a show/marketing gimmick or is there an anti-radiation version of Nag, etc being developed?

[Sridhar]

Prem Kumar,

I am using two data points, taken together for the conclusion that it is a hybrid propulsion motor as the definition itself means - i.e. with solid propellant and separate (typically liquid) oxidizer.

1. There is a direct quote from Saraswat referring to "hybrid propulsion". Note that he is not referring to "hybrid missile" or some other variant of the term. He is specifically referring to "hybrid propulsion", which is a standard term with an unambiguous meaning. Two stages with different grains is nothing new or out of the ordinary and is not "hybrid propulsion". This is not some journalist with poor knowledge of terms - Saraswat is not likely to use the term unless he means it.

2. The stated capabilities of the missile point to hybrid propulsion. The Hindu report points to variable speeds. The Ajai Shukla report points to specific maneuvers. It also appears from these reports to have a ballistic phase. These point to the ability to throttle (and potentially stop & restart) the missile, not just thrust vector it. This is not a conclusive data point in itself, but supports the first data point.

We will know more over time, but this is my conclusion based on currently available data in the public domain.

[Sridhar]

tsarkar,

Each of the three conditions are not sufficient conditions by themselves. But they all need to be simultaneously present for it to be a cruise missile. I did not say that either condition 1 or 3 would make it a cruise missile, but both. If you note this, you would see that there is little difference between your point about controlled flight and mine. Sustained powered flight, combined with guidance all the way gives rise to controlled flight all the way. No?

The second condition (wings and/or control surfaces), I agree is not a strong condition, but has generally been seen since cruise missiles (which typically stay within the earth's lower atmosphere) benefit from the lift and the control that wings and/or control surfaces provide. Hence, this is typical of cruise missiles (albeit one can argue that it is not necessary).

Guidance all the way through does not mean the mere presence of INS or other systems, which ballistic missiles might have. But the ability to make significant adjustments to the flight path. Most ballistic missiles are incapable of doing that during the ballistic phase, apart perhaps from minor adjustments at certain phases of the flight.

[Sridhar]

I have posted a comment on Ajai Shukla's blog asking for direct confirmation about the kind of propulsion. (it has not been published yet). Let's see if he can find a direct answer to the question.

[a_kumar]

Israeli Rafael & Indian BEL join hands for JV on advanced missile systems...

http://www.livemint.com/2010/02/1722214 ... ans-J.html

Good Pointer. Interesting snippets.

“Missiles developed here use command guidance. You can have a radar that can send signals for command guidance. At present that is what is done in Akash,” the official said. “Seekers have been tried in India for Nag missiles. But (more) mature technologies will be helpful as well.”

The executive was referring to a seeker, which is a missile guidance device aboard an interceptor missile that searches for and homes in on a target
.....

He also said that the proposed facility will eventually be scaled up to develop new technologies in missile seekers depending on the projects it can secure from India.

Drori said his firm is not looking at a 49% participation in the joint venture as it feels the Indian government may not allow that. “We do not want to do that. Its unachievable. The government will not approve. We will be happy with 26%,” he said.

Israelis are game! Watch those who are complaining about the 26% limit.

[Gerard]

The nose of the Shourya at launch looks like a cap that will be discarded after an underwater launch. If so, this would only be necessary if the snout had a Brahmos-like intake for an air-breathing engine.

Air breathing has nothing to do with the cap

In this video of a Russian R-39 launch, the cap can be clearly seen
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSn6_p8DTww

interesting snippet regarding the cap on Russian SLBMs

http://www.wmdinsights.com/I4/R_NewDetails.htm

For the first time in the history of Soviet/Russian submarine-building, “Bulava” will be launched at an angle to the submarine’s course instead of vertically. This should enable submarines to launch missiles without completely stopping as was the case with all previous types of SSBNs. The new launch method also allows elimination of a special “cap” (“cavitator”), which weighed several tons, on top of the missile. On previous types of submarine-launched missiles, this “cap” helped to clear a path through the water for the missile and was dropped once the missile reached the surface.

[Craig Alpert]

Israelis are game! Watch those who are complaining about the 26% limit.

Nothing beats their Intelligence Gathering.. While everybody else TRIED, they ALREADY KNEW that it was going to be pegged at 26 %...
Def Ministry Expects 15-20% Rise in Budget Allocation

...................
"I am hopeful of an increase of at least 15-20 per cent," he told reporters on the sidelines of Assocham International Conference on Indian Defence here.
................
Asked whether there was any plan to increase the 26 per cent cap on FDI in defence sector, Raju said at the moment, the government was not thinking on this line though there is a request from the industry.

"We are not considering it (increasing the FDI cap) at this moment," Raju said.

Refusing to give any time-frame for increasing the FDI cap in defence sector, he said, "We will see if there is a need in the future. The government in its wisdom has now restricted it to 26 per cent."

[Gerard]

More on the cap
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/russia/r39.htm

The ARSS ensures the amortization of rocket, hermetic sealing the cavity of mine and safety of rocket for the submarine, it allows the submerged submarine rocket carrier from the tube to the significant depth opened by cover. All load-bearing elements of rocket, necessary with its operation on the ground environment and aboard the ship, with exception of middle supporting skirt, are placed on the ARSS and housing of rear compartment, jettisoned in the initial phase of flight after the output of rocket from the water.

At the moment of launch a special solid-propellant grain, located on the ARSS, create the gas current protection in the form of cavity, which decreases the hydrodynamic loads on the rocket. Command to the starting of first-stage engine will be given at the moment of the output of rocket from the tube. Ignition of the first stage engine occurs after leaving the tube. With start of the first-stage engine after exiting from the water the rocket for the purpose of providing safety of submarine takes away to the side. Starting system in flight is removed by special engines from the rocket and also it takes away to the side.

[Kanson]

between Shaurya model

[vasu_ray]

With Shaurya, it makes more sense that the 2nd stage with the sustaining motor continues the hypersonic flight

while thats where things stand, in future can the RV have a scram jet engine and part of the payload weight is actually fuel for it? or any scram jet engine will have to be as long as the current 2nd stage?

the materials (strength wise) needed for a scram jet driving a small RV should be feasible

[Sridhar]

Here's Ajai Shukla's response to my question about hybrid propulsion on his website

Sridhar:

Dr Saraswat was talking about the flight trajectory, not the propellant. There is no separate liquid oxygen oxidiser.

Maybe it was all a storm in a teacup, in which case I apologize for pushing the discussion along those lines. Perhaps there was some wishful thinking on my side. I will still say that I have some hope that Dr. S referred to a hybrid propulsion engine since he used that term very clearly.

(BTW, I did not suggest a liquid oxygen oxidizer, only a separate, likely liquid, oxidizer).

[Luxtor]

India eyeing Javelin, the fire-and-forget missile

India is in talks with the United States to buy Raytheon's Javelin fire-and-forget missiles that have been used in Iraq and Afghanistan, Walter Doran, Asia president at the U.S. firm, told Reuters on Monday.

Why do we need Javelin when we have Nag? Is Nag a different type of anti-armour missile than Javelin? Maybe Javelin is a MANP-ATGM and Nag is too heavy to be a MANP-ATGM?

[Singha]

javelin is man portable, nag is not. the correct question is javelin vs Milan2T (which I believe BDL hyd already makes). I guess javelin is top attack, while Milan2T is not.

with 4000 new milans in pipeline and a reported 30,000 made
under license by BDL over the years (some may have expired by
now from mid 80s), this is our mainline man portable atgm.

javelin may be a fishing expedition that found some takers in
SF/para community or new mountain divs.

---

Indian Army to Purchase 4100 Milan 2T Anti Tank Guided Missiles in USD 120 million Deal

Daily News & Updates
Dated 26/1/2009
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Times of India reports that the Indian Army has gone in for an urgent order of 4,100 French-origin Milan-2T anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs). Defence ministry sources said the Rs 592-crore (USD 120 million approx.) order for 4,100 Milan-2T missiles was cleared after 26/11, with the government finally fast-tracking several military procurement plans.

MILAN 2T is manufactured by the European defense giant MBDA which is also involved in few other defense deals with the Indian government. MBDA is a missile manufacturer with operations in France, Germany, Italy and Britain.

India and Pakistan are currently reorganising their mechanised forces to achieve strategic mobility and high-volume firepower for rapid thrusts into enemy territory. India has plans to progressively induct as many as 1,657 Russian-origin T-90S main-battle tanks (MBTs), apart from the ongoing upgradation of its T-72 fleet.

But with Pakistan looking to procure T-84 MBTs from Ukraine to bolster its already strong fleet of T-80UD, Al-Khalid and other tanks, India wants its infantry battalions to have potent anti-armour capabilities.

This can be gauged from the fact that the latest order for 4,100 advanced Milan-2T missiles with tandem warheads to replenish the Army's dwindling ATGM stock comes barely a few months after the Rs 1,380-crore contract for a staggering 15,000 Konkurs-M missiles. Defence PSU Bharat Dynamics Ltd (BDL), incidentally, manufactures variants of the second-generation 2-km-range Milan and 4-km-range Konkurs ATGMs, under licence from French and Russian companies, at around Rs 4.50 lakh per unit.

As for the third-generation Nag ATGM, with a 4-km strike range, Army has already placed an initial order for 443 missiles and 13 Namicas (Nag missile tracked carriers). But the Nag is still to become fully operational almost two decades after it was first tested.

DRDO contends that Phase-I of Nag's user-trials were successfully completed last month, with Phase-II now slated for May-June. "Pre-production of Nag is underway at BDL. It's is a fire-and-forget missile, with potent top-attack capability to hit a tank's vulnerable upper portion like the gun turret,'' said an official.

Moreover, Nag's range will be extended to over 7-km in its airborne version named "Helina'', to be fitted on "Dhruv'' Advanced Light Helicopters, each configured to carry eight missiles in two launchers. Incidentally, Nag is the only "core missile system'' of India's original Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme (IGMDP), launched way back in 1983, whose development work is yet to be completed.

The IGMDP was closed in December 2007 after DRDO declared development work on all other missiles ― Agni, Prithvi, Akash and Trishul ― was over. While work on strategic nuclear-capable missiles like Agni-III (3,500-km range) and Agni-V (over 5,000-km) is being "undertaken in-house'', India is now increasingly look at foreign collaboration in other armament projects to cut delays.

[krishnan]

Also Milan is wire guided where as Javelin isnt

[Austin]

If DRDO is given the mandate to develop a man portable version of Nag they can deliver it , unless Javelin purchase is making few people rich there is no point in pursuing it.

Nag has F&F capability they need to make it manportable which is doable.

[Singha]

either way at the engagement range of 2-4km both seem to work,
people cannot use these weapons in forests and such...only relatively open territory.

for heavier Nagish weapons, fire n forget IIR guidance is best.

[Tamang]

Sky's the limit

Beijing's dismissal of the DRDO's claims that its missile technology is superior to that of China might provoke knee-jerk patriotism in Delhi. But no one in the world disputes that China is way ahead of India in missilery and military uses of space.

By transferring missiles and their production technology, China has also put Pakistan ahead of India. Instead of acknowledging the reality and redoubling the effort to catch up, the DRDO is making extravagant claims. Take, for example, its head V.K. Saraswat's claim that the Agni-III, with its 3000 km range, is ready for "induction" by the services.

[tsarkar]

Sanku –

I will define it as a cruise missile, because it has a controlled flight path throughout, with a boost, sustain and probably terminal boost flight profile.

It is a cruise missile in terms of flight characteristics rather than components.

It is a cruise missile that DOESN’T use usual cruise missile components, but rather usual ballistic missile components.

Hybrid motor – Dr Saraswat meant dual pulse solid propellant motor as described earlier by Austin & me. That is the latest in thing in propulsion, it allows the 276 kg Barak 8 fly longer and perform better than the 720 kg Akash.

Rakall –

“Consider Agni-3 -- out of the 800-900secs of its flight time it is powered only for 160-180 seconds split between the two stages.. typically the motor burn is over long before it reaches the max altitude.. “

That I believe is the key difference between Shourya and Agni – My interpretation is post boost, the dual pulse motor, based on the propellant grain arrangement, moves into a sustain mode. I strongly suspect there is a terminal boost pulse fired like Barak-8.

“The question is how long is the Shaurya "powered" during its flight?”

This is the key question in interpreting Shourya performance.

Sridhar,

The response to your query strongly points towards dual pulse motor. Normal AAM/SAM coast during terminal homing, but Barak 8 fires a second pulse giving it enhanced energy to deal with speeding/maneuvering targets.

From published data, http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ind ... sam-03461/

“The Barak 8 missile reportedly extends its range to 60-70 km/ up to 42 miles, thanks to a dual-pulse solid rocket motor whose second “pulse” fires as the missile approaches its target. This ensures that the missile isn’t just coasting in the final stages, giving it several chances at a fast, maneuvering target.”

No offense taken from anyone, nor intended towards anyone. What upset me was people taking the discussion tangential by saying it doesn’t have lift generating surfaces, it doesn’t have air breathing, no terminal guidance, so Ajai and Dr Saraswat are taking nonsense.

What they were saying all along is that Shourya has a controlled flight path/trajectory, that is the defining feature of a cruise missile. I wanted to convey that characteristics and performance defines a missile as ballistic or cruise, rather than components.

[K_Rohit]

OT alert!

I have been a lurker for years and have started posting only recently. But the quality of the discussion on Shourya reminds me of old BRF. Good debate without needless passion and emotions. Have enjoyed it and learnt from it.

[Sanku]

Thanks tsarkar, however if I may say so

so Ajai and Dr Saraswat are taking nonsense.

The above was not what the folks were saying IMVHO, what was being discussed was, since we have come to associate cruise missiles with certain components and features, and Shouyra is supposed to be a cruise like missile, does it have any of the components that we missed out previously? Or some other magic? Just trying to make sense of it.

[Austin]

Hybrid motor – Dr Saraswat meant dual pulse solid propellant motor as described earlier by Austin & me. That is the latest in thing in propulsion, it allows the 276 kg Barak 8 fly longer and perform better than the 720 kg Akash.

Indeed the sustained cruise/DT trajectory and use of dual pulse solid propellant is the latest achievement in BM , we will see in the future many countries adopting the same approach to deal with ABM/EW threats.

Interestingly the single stage Iskander-M also uses a dual pulse propellant and follows the same approach as far as trajectory of flight goes link

[Sanku]

Any articles on dual pulse propellants that can be posted please?

Some further details on general tech?

[Kanson]

“I would say the Shaurya a hybrid propulsion missile”, says Dr Saraswat. “Like a ballistic missile, it is powered by solid fuel. And, like a cruise missile, it can guide itself right up to the target.”

Hybrid propulsion in general means any one or more different propulsion to run locomotives, diesel subs (diesel engine N Battery), CODAG etc.

But when it comes to rocketry...it denotes the solid fuel and liquid oxidiser as Sridhar mentioned.

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/ssc/micho ... ation.html

Hybrid Propulsion Demonstration

Michoud Operations is leading an industry/government team studying hybrid propulsion technology. Hybrid propulsion provides the potential for launch vehicles that are lower in cost, more reliable, safer and environmentally compliant. The hybrid system under study is powered by a combination of solid, non-explosive fuel and a liquid oxidizer. Unlike solid rockets currently in use, the hybrid system can be throttled, shut off and restarted during flight.

http://www.fas.org/spp/military/program ... ctical.htm

The Air Force is focusing its effort instead on the application of hybrid propulsion to tactical missiles. Recent tests of hybrid fuels and oxidizers show there is great promise for this technology area.

But who knows....looks n words can be deceptive.

[Kanson]

Sky's the limit

Beijing's dismissal of the DRDO's claims that its missile technology is superior to that of China might provoke knee-jerk patriotism in Delhi. But no one in the world disputes that China is way ahead of India in missilery and military uses of space.

By transferring missiles and their production technology, China has also put Pakistan ahead of India. Instead of acknowledging the reality and redoubling the effort to catch up, the DRDO is making extravagant claims. Take, for example, its head V.K. Saraswat's claim that the Agni-III, with its 3000 km range, is ready for "induction" by the services.

Very well researched, insightful, splendid analysis. I looked for the author name, there is none. Can anyone help me to find the gentleman who written this, I like to congratulate him.

[Kanson]

I tried to google up , can we have some launch sequences of a Hybrid propellant based rocket/missile ? I am wondering if we can make out a Hybrid propellant based missile from a solid/liquid fueled missile by looking at the exhaust plume . Shaurya's first stage launch sequence is very similar to any solid fueled missile .

Here it is..

[Kanson]

No part of the powered flight is "ballistic". Vice Versa, Ballistic trajectory starts only after the powered flight is over...

I'm thinking your definition is a very basic one. Doesnt apply to multiple or multi stage propulsion.

What do you call the steam catapulting of aircraft from aircraft carrier ? However once in air, it uses its own propulsion to change the flight profile. Sameway it applies to missiles tooo.

[Austin]

Yeah DRDO just went over board with we are ahead statement , some times the kind of public posturing that DRDO does ( Saraswat, Pillai etc ) reminds me of the next door guy AQ Khan.

I have never heard till date even a single Russian missile scientist claiming so many good things about Brahmos although its a join development compared to what our DRDO folks dish out.

[Kanson]

Rohit - AFAIK, no helicopter anywhere carries any anti radiation missile. They fly too low and too slow for effective SEAD, though US did use Apaches for this role in Iraq using laser guided hellfires and unguided FFAR.

tsarkar ji. Nowadays even AAA guns are RADAR cued. If the Army is doing a combined manoeuver along with LCH as air arm against formation embedded with low level Air defence systems like Tunguska will the Anti radiation missile will not come in handy ? Or, how it will ? If there is LCH there will also be aircraft doing the SEAD role ?

[Kanson]

Yeah DRDO just went over board with we are ahead statement , some times the kind of public posturing that DRDO does ( Saraswat, Pillai etc ) reminds me of the next door guy AQ Khan.

I have never heard till date even a single Russian missile scientist claiming so many good things about Brahmos although its a join development compared to what our DRDO folks dish out.

For their lapse in doing that in Brahmos, they did it in Topol-M and Bulava. Isnt it?

Austin ji, just curious abt your use of term "sustained DT" for Shaurya. Doesnt matter whether Shaurya did cruise of DT. But when you say "sustained" there is no depressed trajectory isnt it ? depressed trajectory is for free falling object. When sustained it is not free failing, right ? I guess "sustained DT" is oxymoronic.

[Austin]

For their lapse in doing that in Brahmos, they did it in Topol-M and Bulava. Isnt it?

Thats their own baby isn't it , dont our Agni folks do that for their own baby

But you can bet on open source you can find more information on Agni than Topol-M , well for most part thanks to Aruns write up.

[Kanson]

But you can bet on open source you can find more information on Agni than Topol-M , well for most part thanks to Aruns write up.

Well then you should not blame DRDO, right ? You know well DRDO didnt hired Arun for their publicity.