Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

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Sanku
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Sanku »

Aditya_V wrote:Sanku-> Please tell me how hitting Pakistan will help when a sizeable portion of our Mass Media is proPakistan. They would definately leak any plans of attack beforehand and in any attack by India would paint the Indian Armed forces as the villian. In such a situation unless we care take of the mass media in the country all action against Pakistan is a lose lose scenario.
Hmm this discussion will go into a different thread actually, but for here, I will only say that if we want to hold ourselves back any number of minor and major issues can be overwhelming.

I do not think the issues are so terrible that they will stop an Indian action.

As to excuse Pakistan WILL provide excuse. We can rest assured it will.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Sanku »

amit wrote:So what's the best course of action? I really don't know and to be frank I'm yet to come across a plan/proposal on these threads that looks as if can work and is doable. We are hearing a lot of we need to be tough, we need to beat the crap out of them etc but we're a little short on the details.
Actually thats not correct many folks have pointed out the course of action in fair amount of detail, so its quite incorrect to say what you have said have.

Please check Rajaram and R Vaidya's posts for example (I will not quote my own suggestions once more) backed up by SSridhar et al as a fairly doable course of action.

Meanwhile some more totally confused statements
US was very reluctant to get involved in the World War as it was busy making a lot of money by selling arms to the desperate Allies. It took a stupid decision by the Japanese to bomb Pearl Harbour to get the US into the war. Once in it, the US was ruthless, undoubtedly. But if you look at it the Pakis have always goaded India into wars and even though India is reluctant to fight - that is start a conflict - once one is underway, each time it has given the Pakis a whalloping, the last one resulting in half the country splitting.
So US hit back after attacked? Well Bhai in case you didnt notice we are being attacked at nearly every opportunity (unless of course to you Mumbai V and the random firing that Pakistani's do while pushing Terrorists across is merely chai-biskoot)
I don't know if we've managed to rebuild this capability - such things would never be in public domain. But common sense seems to say that with so many US and Nato operatives inside Pakiland, it would result in less space for our own operatives to work. I guess in that way we are stymied.
Commons sense says that places which are chaotic and are hot bed of opeatives are free for all places, we can send our own, how will anyone notice whether they are from TTP, Nato or what not?

This is the fertile ground for double-agents quasi-double agents etc etc..

But to some of us thats just another reason to mention why we should only ride it out as long as our own ass is safe.

And before you ask "how do we know our people are not already active" -- I say results are not those which would help India. None of the Indian targets of interests have been hurt.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Philip »

Shiv has hit the nail on its proverbial head.The US is the master puppeteer in the Indian sub-continent right now.It brilliantly used the opportunity that came its way in the aftermath of 26/11 to "squat" in the region,presumably in "hot pursuit" of Osama and his Al Q brigade.We now know that the pursuit was neither "hot" nor was it in any sense a "pursuit".The fiasco at Tora Bora confirmed the suspicions of many that the Paki ISI agents within the so-called Taliban who were rescued by the US, were part of the whole plot.What had happened in Afghanistan is that as in Iraq,orders were not being followed by its lackeys.Remember that the Taliban originally was created by the CIA,ISI and the Saudis and one Osama Bin Laden (whose family are close buddies and partners of the Bush dynasty) was the CIA's golden boy. The "pursuit" of Osama is a sick joke.As long as he is alive and in hiding,the US has a reason for "squatting" and defeacting in our backyard.Long may the "Sheikh" live!

Having attained its objective of squatting in our backyard and close to controlling the Af-Pak region,where all that remains is to eliminate or seduce into acquiescence the hard core anti-US elements there (so that the Kaszakh oil pipeline can run through Af-Pak to the Arabian Sea),the US now wants control over the "whole of the Indian subcontinent"! This is the true gameplan of the US.Pak and its military have been neutered in the usual manner.More toys and pocketmoney for its military.Its traditional hatred of India and desire to continue its normal business of terror and conflict,is now under threat from the US which has offered it a "victory",but not on the battlefield.The US has promised to Pak that it will "deal" with India,just as India believes that the US will "deal" with Pak and "deal" with China! In actual fact,it is Pak who will get the "real deal",as it is far more troublesome to the US than soft servile India.Long standing lover boy Pak,in true rent-boy fashion,has been promised by the US that what it could never accomplish on the battefield,with US connivance it would obtain its objectives as a reward for its decades for "back channel" service to Uncle Sam.

Now what has the US actually promised to its catamite? First,the neutering oif India's military advantage over Pak.This is to be accomplished by selling India US made weaponry,which the US can in any crisis completely disable through its strangelhold over spares,etc.,plus its ability to electronically disable al US made weaponry and sensors in Indian service.With India dependent upon the US for key wepaon systems,it can then NEVER ever go to war with Pak again! This is the most important part of the deal.Attached to this is the fact that India will also be placed in a "nuclear straight-jacket",unable to test in future because of US sanctions over its nuclear industry,where despite the signing of the N-deal with the US,key Indian scientific laboratories and certain PSUs are still on the banned list,barred from dealing with US companies.The huge question mark that still remains over India's H-bomb capability will remain for a v.long time as we have put the handcuffs on ourselves by signing on to the N-deal and handed the key to Uncle Sam!

Apart from thus castrating India conventionally and strategically,the US will next hand over to Pak,by way of these "talks" being held in indecent haste,key concessions on Kashmir (permanent open borders in J&K,so that later on at the opportune moment,Paki "tribals",Paki stromtroopers,might yet again make their assault for the Valley) and obtain from Indian a solemn pledge never to interfere in Paki affairs,especially Baluchistan ,because of the Baluchi proximity to Iran.Iran is hostile to the US,whose govt. it wants to overthrow.All this is possible only because of the MMS govt. at the helm of Indian affairs right now.The Congress party is ensuring servile lackeys heading the chief posts in the administration,who will facilitate the stealth "surrender to Pak".In addition to the headless chickens "heading" India's diplomacy,a posse of so-called intellectuals,artists,scribes,etc.,well funded and looked after by the US are all being roped in to further the "Peace with Pak " cause.Meanwhile,a secret N-deal for Pak is also being arranged,once India and Pak "bury the hatchet".

Thus,by stealth,Pak is being happily awarded all the prizes ,while India will have to take the wooden spoon! Our good doctor,peddlar of snake-oil could even win the Nobel Peace prize along with his Paki counterpart,in the same scandalous fashion with which Uncle O won his (ig)noble prize! In the year where an Indian has resurrected the East India Company,he true East India Company is being brought into being,where the key shareholders and directors are American.We achieved our freedom 60+ years ago,a battle that actually began a century earlier,bit now are in sever danger of losing it by stealth to a new but old imperial power,the true inheritor of the remnants of the Roman Empire,the US of A.
Last edited by Philip on 19 Feb 2010 17:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by amit »

Sridhar,

I'm sorry for a late reply to your very thoughtful post. Was busy elsewhere.
SSridhar wrote:Moving IPL-3 out of India or not will not be a decision taken by GoI, just as it did not have any say in selection of players. It will be done by whatever IPL committee that is responsible for that in consultation with the owners. All that GoI may convey to IPL would be that it would provide comprehensive security coverage.
I'm not too sure that Lalit Modi's IPL can function so independently. It's one thing to decide on not taking Paki players without informing the govt. It's quite another to decide to pack bags and go to South Africa or Australia or wherever without govt consent. Remember last year's case was special as the govt itself was not too keen what with the election dates clashing. I'm sure GoI will impress on both Modi and the team owners the fact that if the IPL moves out then there is very little likelihood of the Commonwealth Games being held. You can't say the cricketers were more vulnerable than athletes who will take part in the games.

IPL may be a private enterprise but it's market is India and if the GoI decides it can make things very difficult.
My point is that slowly and surely, foreign players and sports bodies are beginning to feel the security issue of India... The feeling of 'India being insecure' is creeping into the minds of foreign sporting bodies whether we like to accept it or not. Pakistan has already succeeded in its goal.
I agree with you on this point especially the attempt to show that India is not safe. But apart from just tightening our security and being super vigilant I don't see how else we can ride this out? I'm really curious on this point - that is what we can do to prevent this.
OK. It can't fudge responsibility. It cannot even fudge responsibility for several earlier acts, the latest being 26/11. And yet, nothing happened. Again, let's be clear here. Of course, Pakistan's single minded India-obsession has cost it a leg and an arm. Has it ever cared about the cost ? So long as the friends are there to bale it out, and so long as it can sustain hatred for India among its population, it will not only survive but continue to inflict ever increasing pain on India.
If you look at Pak inspired terrorism over the past decade and a half you'd notice that in the initial years, in fact up to the Parliament attack, from the Paki point of view there was always a window of deniability. The difference today is that I think that fig leaf has gone. And regarding it's friends who, as you rightly point out, are propping it up, my reasoning (please note I'm just speculating and I could be wrong) is that as the Indian economy grows to US$4-5 trillion it will pose an increasing cost on these friends as well. Will that do the trick? I guess only time will tell and we do need more self confident political leadership.
Absolutely. The first priority of any government is providing security to its citizens. There is only so much a Government can do through a defensive posture of strengthening internal security. I am not saying that either this government or the predecessors have done all that they could for strengthening intelligence gathering, swift action, intelligence sharing, equipping the forces etc. But, beyond a point, the source has to be struck. Again, I am not favouring only a militarist solution; it must be a holistic approach. I link terrorism with economic growth nowadays because I am worried that increasing chaos due to terrorism may affect us economically. Until recently, one was talking stand-alone of tackling terror from Pakistan, without linking that with anything else.
I fully agree with this point.

Amit, nobody is saying that we will tackle Pakistan at the cost of Indian economy. In any case, Indians and Indian economy are taking massive hits due to Pakistani terror. We will only be deceiving ourselves if we forget the cost we have incurred and are incurring because of Pakistani terror. This is already affecting the 'roti, kapra aur makhan'.
Good you point this out Sridhar. I brought this point up because there have been a huge number of post which suggest that MMS is only interested in the economy and nothing else. My point is and was that every PM, especially since the start of this millennium has had the economy as the primary focus because that's the mandate they've been handed over by the electorate. Now one can argue that the current UPA govt has not done enough on security but to imply that security and economy are too mutually exclusive domains with no relation to one another is not correct IMO.
I am certainly one of those posters.
Reacting in a manner in which your enemy wants you to and provokes you to, can also be called a form of Dhimmitude can't it? Isn't it the majority opinion on BRF that the whole idea of terror attacks is to provoke another war or at least another Parikram like build up?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by amit »

Sanku wrote:Let me see?

Did LBS ask IA to go easy on Pak? Nopes

Did IG hit the Pakis? Check

Did RG make the Pakis shiver their chaddis? Check

Did ABV let them know what olive green looks like? Ya

Guess who is missing from the list? PVNR and MMS?

About Shri PVNR we know that he was handed a mess, with Yelstin in Moscow, Soviet Union down the tube, A burning Valley post the Rubiya sellout a barely pacified Punjab, a nearly bankrupt GoI etc etc

And what does Shri MMS have to say in his defence? He got a economy put back on the rails, a post Parakram pacified valley, no Naxalism, no major Internal security issues etc etc.

Pliss be telling "every PM did the same thing" somewhere else thank you very much.
:)

Great on rhetoric by very little on specifics.

IG went to war. RG used (according to anecdotal evidence) covert action. AVB used a build up which resulted in neither war or covert action. And during Kargil he didn't let the forces cross the border despite the high casualties.

Can you please be more specific and state which one you think would work?

Please do take into account that we are talking about circa 2010 when we've got the mess in Afghanistan and the US crawling all over Pakistan.

Thank you.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by chetak »

shiv wrote:How can India punish Pakistan?

What does "punishing Pakistan" mean?

Not talking is not punishment. When we talk of punishment someone must feel pain in Pakistan. So who must feel pain? After all there are 165 million Pakis but we should ideally aim punishment at those who cause the most pain to us.
This is probably our biggest problem and the source of all our pain

Why should we give a hoot about who feels the pain in paki land?

If the policies of the paki govt or army is to be countered then the 165 million as a whole should be made to understand that their hostile policies are the cause of their takleef, vis a vis India.

If we foolishly continue business as usual and medical treatment and people to people stuff and WKK then the pakis have understood that they have every thing to gain from India and nothing at all to lose. Is anyone asking WHAT business so many pakis have in India???, so many visas?? Shut it all down or ration it stringently!

If we shutdown every thing and make them, the ornery pakis, beg hard for each scrap from our table then and only then will they understand how the paki army or govt is gumming up the works. That is when they may speak up and perhaps have an effect on the attitude of the powers that be.

The paki army or govt are not different from their people. We saw how the entire lot of them ganged up against us after 26/11. The press, the army, isi, paki aam jantha and the govt at the very highest level blamed Indian Hindu radicals for the Taj and Oberoi attack and seamlessly closed ranks against us.

This is their true and gut reaction to all things Indian.

Is this a lesson that we are forever fated not to learn due to some stupid civilizational genes? Or is sixty years too little time for us to learn?

If we say that there can be no good and bad taliban,why make any similar distinction here? :)
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Sanku »

Amit;

RG used covert action alone? Perhaps you have forgotten Brass tacks? Siachen? Op Chequer board?

Do you really want me to do "ka kha gha" under the quest of specifics?

I dont think you will ever see what I am saying, because despite ALL THE OBVIOUS DATA you will still deny the role of Parakaram in stabilization of J&K and elections there and overall reduction of terror in India. What do I say to people like you who are like "main nahee manooga" (I will not agree).

Meanwhile please dont labour under a misapprehension that I am trying to have a debate with you. I have no such illusions. However I feel if I can counter rank incorrect statements I am doing my bit at what ever level and at whatever platform.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by amit »

Sanku wrote:Actually thats not correct many folks have pointed out the course of action in fair amount of detail, so its quite incorrect to say what you have said have.

Please check Rajaram and R Vaidya's posts for example (I will not quote my own suggestions once more) backed up by SSridhar et al as a fairly doable course of action.
Then I must say that a lot of folks are wasting their time here since nobody in the governments we've had over the past 10 years have implemented or thought of these courses of action. If they had then we'd be free of terrorism by now, nah? God know we need strategic thinkers in the government.
So US hit back after attacked? Well Bhai in case you didnt notice we are being attacked at nearly every opportunity (unless of course to you Mumbai V and the random firing that Pakistani's do while pushing Terrorists across is merely chai-biskoot)
Sigh! As usual you don't read a post properly. You equate the Japanese air force bombing Pearl Harbour and killing hundreds and destroying significant assets of the US navy - a clear act of war - with Pakistan pushing in terrorists into India. I specifically said that whenever the Pakistani Armed forces attacked India, 1965 or 1971, to take two, they were ruthless driven back.
This is the fertile ground for double-agents quasi-double agents etc etc..
Sanku, seriously you should go into government intelligence service, I'm sure they can use you talents, very well. You have such good ideas - this quasi double agent is new one for me. Dictionary.com says quasi means resembling; seeming; virtual. I like the last meaning the most: virtual double agent. Perhaps they can work out of Gurgaon. :)

Meanwhile, I'll have to brush up on my Tom Clancy novels.
Last edited by amit on 19 Feb 2010 17:42, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Pranav »

Philip wrote: Now what has the US actually promised to its catamite? First,the neutering oif India's military advantage over Pak.This is to be accomplished by selling India US made weaponry,which the US can in any crisis completely disable through its strangelhold over spares,etc.,plus its ability to electronically disable al US made weaponry and sensors in Indian service.With India dependent upon the US for key wepaon systems,it can then NEVER ever go to war with Pak again! This is the most important part of the deal.Attached to this is the fact that India will also be placed in a "nuclear straight-jacket",unable to test in future because of US sanctions over its nuclear industry,where despite the signing of the N-deal with the US,key Indian scientific laboratories and certain PSUs are still on the banned list,barred from dealing with US companies.The huge question mark that still remains over India's H-bomb capability will remain for a v.long time as we have put the handcuffs on ourselves by signing on to the N-deal and handed the key to Uncle Sam!

Apart from thus castrating India conventionally and strategically,the US will next hand over to Pak,by way of these "talks" being held in indecent haste,key concessions on Kashmir (permanent open borders in J&K,so that later on at the opportune moment,Paki "tribals",Paki stromtroopers,might yet again make their assault for the Valley) and obtain from Indian a solemn pledge never to interfere in Paki affairs,especially Baluchistan ,because of the Baluchi proximity to Iran.Iran is hostile to the US,whose govt. it wants to overthrow.All this is possible only because of the MMS govt. at the helm of Indian affairs right now.The Congress party is ensuring servile lackeys heading the chief posts in the administration,who will facilitate the stealth "surrender to Pak".In addition to the headless chickens "heading" India's diplomacy,a posse of so-called intellectuals,artists,scribes,etc.,well funded and looked after by the US are all being roped in to further the "Peace with Pak " cause.Meanwhile,a secret N-deal for Pak is also being arranged,once India and Pak "bury the hatchet".

Thus,by stealth,Pak is being happily awarded all the prizes ,while India will have to take the wooden spoon! Our good doctor,peddlar of snake-oil could even win the Nobel Peace prize along with his Paki counterpart,in the same scandalous fashion with which Uncle O won his (ig)noble prize! In the year where an Indian has resurrected the East India Company,he true East India Company is being brought into being,where the key shareholders and directors are American.We achieved our freedom 60+ years ago,a battle that actually began a century earlier,bit now are in sever danger of losing it by stealth to a new but old imperial power,the true inheritor of the remnants of the Roman Empire,the US of A.

Important points to ponder upon. Once we let somebody into our EVM binaries, there's no stopping them from taking over the house.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by amit »

Sanku wrote:Amit;

RG used covert action alone? Perhaps you have forgotten Brass tacks? Siachen? Op Chequer board?

Do you really want me to do "ka kha gha" under the quest of specifics?

I dont think you will ever see what I am saying, because despite ALL THE OBVIOUS DATA you will still deny the role of Parakaram in stabilization of J&K and elections there and overall reduction of terror in India. What do I say to people like you who are like "main nahee manooga" (I will not agree).
Let's cut the chase Sanku. So you're saying we need another Brasstracks, Siachen etc to keep the Pakis tamed? And you think that's doable given the situation in Afghanistan? And with the overt Nuclear overhang as opposed to the suppressed nuclear deterrent during Brasstacks?
Meanwhile please dont labour under a misapprehension that I am trying to have a debate with you. I have no such illusions. However I feel if I can counter rank incorrect statements I am doing my bit at what ever level and at whatever platform.
My, my what anger? I do hope you realise the two sentences are mutually contradictory. You don't want to debate with me and yet you feel compelled to correct "rank incorrect statements" that I make by responding to my posts.

I tell you what I'll make your life simpler by not reacting to your statements. :)
Last edited by amit on 19 Feb 2010 17:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Atri »

shiv wrote:How can India punish Pakistan?

What does "punishing Pakistan" mean?

Not talking is not punishment. When we talk of punishment someone must feel pain in Pakistan. So who must feel pain? After all there are 165 million Pakis but we should ideally aim punishment at those who cause the most pain to us.
Two pronged method..

Salvo of Brahmos to kill off all the senior military and ISI afsars, all over the pakiland, wherever they are... Those who missed, should be killed off, by mossad ishtyle encounters by RAW in pakiland.. along with senior mullahs of LeT and other organisations..

Seriously, how difficult it is for organisation like RAW to carry out a series of assassinations of those who intend to harm us?

Army Top brass which makes up the vital part of nuclear command and control
Senior mullahs who are actively participating in madrassas which are famous for producing jihadis
Prominent non-state actors - hafeez saeed, dawood, tiger memon, and others..
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by amit »

Chiron wrote: Two pronged method..

Salvo of Brahmos to kill off all the senior military and ISI afsars, all over the pakiland, wherever they are... Those who missed, should be killed off, by mossad ishtyle encounters by RAW in pakiland.. along with senior mullahs of LeT and other organisations..
Chiron, you seriously think we can fire a salvo of Brahmos (btw the missile has a range of 290km and so can't reach the badlands in Waristan) with no retaliation?
Seriously, how difficult it is for organisation like RAW to carry out a series of assassinations of those who intend to harm us?

Army Top brass which makes up the vital part of nuclear command and control
Senior mullahs who are actively participating in madrassas which are famous for producing jihadis
Prominent non-state actors - hafeez saeed, dawood, tiger memon, and others..
So you think its as easy as that? Unfortunately, as far as I know we don't have a Rambo working for us in RAW.
Last edited by amit on 19 Feb 2010 17:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by anupmisra »

Awards Night: A Paki spoof
Funny in parts but lost in translation. Notable characters and their infamous quotes "as spoofed":
Dr. Shireen Blackwater Baymaari (I’m a sister, dimwit!): "Not unless you expel the Blackwater agents planted within the audience" and "I can see CIA agents" fame.
Experience a great sense of non-Caucasian fairness with Aafia Fairness Cream
Dr. Deafeningly Danish: Loudest Talk Show Host.
Zion Hamid (most Blessedly Warped TV Personality): I am in India live from the Red Fort in New Delhi, and to prove it, I have with me, Muhammad Bin Qasim! Say hello to our brothers and sisters in Pakistan, Qasim bhai. Every Pakistani is Muhammad Bin Qasim!My next speech to the nation will be delivered from Tel Aviv.
I have with me Aishwarya Rai. Say hello to your new rulers, sister Aishwarya.(That’s Ahmed Qureshi in a sari!)
I am in a bunker designed specially by Peo TV for my brilliant talk show, ‘Meray MutaBak-Bak.’
Jazzakallah! Jazzakallah!
Punjab is in Arabia.
Brother, green is the colour of Islam, it is the colour of Pakistan, and now it is also the colour of my hair.
Gymran Khan!(most Ubiquitous Talk Show Guest): He’s busy negotiating with the Taliban.
Who said pakis don't have a sense of humor? This SDRE-looking paki does.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by milindc »

Chiron wrote:
shiv wrote:How can India punish Pakistan?

What does "punishing Pakistan" mean?

Not talking is not punishment. When we talk of punishment someone must feel pain in Pakistan. So who must feel pain? After all there are 165 million Pakis but we should ideally aim punishment at those who cause the most pain to us.
Two pronged method..

Salvo of Brahmos to kill off all the senior military and ISI afsars, all over the pakiland, wherever they are... Those who missed, should be killed off, by mossad ishtyle encounters by RAW in pakiland.. along with senior mullahs of LeT and other organisations..

Seriously, how difficult it is for organisation like RAW to carry out a series of assassinations of those who intend to harm us?

Army Top brass which makes up the vital part of nuclear command and control
Senior mullahs who are actively participating in madrassas which are famous for producing jihadis
Prominent non-state actors - hafeez saeed, dawood, tiger memon, and others..
The punishment would be to massively increase the allocation for construction of Hydro Electric (run-of-mill) projects on Western rivers with every terrorist attack. India needs to allocate at least $10b and ask the companies to complete these on war-footing.
Every terrorist attack entails the increase of allocation and new projects.....

Pakis are itching for a stalemate fight and with our lethargic progress on strengthening the armed forces we are not in position to inflict grave damage.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Atri »

amit wrote:
Chiron wrote: Two pronged method..

Salvo of Brahmos to kill off all the senior military and ISI afsars, all over the pakiland, wherever they are... Those who missed, should be killed off, by mossad ishtyle encounters by RAW in pakiland.. along with senior mullahs of LeT and other organisations..
Chiron, you seriously think we can fire a salvo of Brahmos (btw the missile has a range of 290km and so can't reach the badlands in Waristan) with no retaliation?
Seriously, how difficult it is for organisation like RAW to carry out a series of assassinations of those who intend to harm us?

Army Top brass which makes up the vital part of nuclear command and control
Senior mullahs who are actively participating in madrassas which are famous for producing jihadis
Prominent non-state actors - hafeez saeed, dawood, tiger memon, and others..
So you think its as easy as that? Unfortunately, as far as I know we don't have a Rambo working for us in RAW.
Its not that difficult as well, if RAW is able to build up and excellent penetration in pakiland.. and I think RAW has decent penetration there.. It does not require Rambo, you see..all that is required is just a will of GOI to give go-ahead... Koota-Yuddha is not that difficult to play, if government puts its entire weight behind RAW...

The range of brahmos is debatable :P

anyways, brahmos option can be exercised only after something as huge as 26/11 (again, if there is will)... Koota-Yuddha is option which is always on.. May be we already are playing Koota-yuddha in pakiland, who knows... just that I would love to see top and middle brass of the TSPA along with senior mullahs as victims of this koota-yuddha since they are precisely the ones who hurt the most to India.. and, it for sure does not require rambo...
Last edited by Atri on 19 Feb 2010 17:49, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by anupmisra »

Pakistan will not hand Taliban suspects to US
Pakistan will not turn over the Afghan Taliban's No. 2 leader and two other high-value militants captured this month to the United States, but may deport them to Afghanistan :roll:
If it is determined that the militants have not committed any crimes in Pakistan, they will not remain in the country :rotfl:
There! That will take care of a paki problem, because then it's an Afghan problem.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by anupmisra »

The new Djinnah
A journalist friend was recently presented with a historic photograph of the founding father in which he was holding his pups. We shouldn’t be surprised if in a few years’ time we come across a doctored photograph of the founding father in a turban and a beard to prove a certain point.
The purpose behind altering details of Jinnah’s personality is the first step towards changing the national narrative.
The country’s survival, hence, does not any longer depend on the struggle of its citizenry to make its political system work, but on establishing an imagined political system which these people guarantee their followers will rid the state of all its evils. Based on puritanical norms, the new political system, which they call the ideal khilafat, can do wonders.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Pranav »

Chiron wrote: Two pronged method..

Salvo of Brahmos to kill off all the senior military and ISI afsars, all over the pakiland, wherever they are... Those who missed, should be killed off, by mossad ishtyle encounters by RAW in pakiland.. along with senior mullahs of LeT and other organisations..

Seriously, how difficult it is for organisation like RAW to carry out a series of assassinations of those who intend to harm us?

Army Top brass which makes up the vital part of nuclear command and control
Senior mullahs who are actively participating in madrassas which are famous for producing jihadis
Prominent non-state actors - hafeez saeed, dawood, tiger memon, and others..
Overt, conventional warfare is not a good idea. Action against non-state actors is OK but preferably it should be deniable. Better to support legitimate aspirations of Sindhis, Pashtuns, Balochis, Shias, secularists etc. Ideas put forward by R Vaidya ji are also more practical.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by harbans »

Lets be clear on one thing here. With the Pakistan we are dealing with there are no solutions that have worked or going to work. Neither talks or military. No solutions have been given here that could/ can be considered to stop terror on a permanent basis. That change cannot come from a military solution without the possibility of massive damage to India, specially since the Jihadi on our West has mastered the art of Nuclear blackmail. This is a very basic point and i am sure that it's not lost upon a lot of strategists in India or elsewhere. Solutions like taking away MFN, reduced diplomatic exchange, stopping the Aman and WKK asses won't bring much difference to Paki aims or it's ability to deliver terror with impunity.

The problem that arises is what after that? Everyone is trying in some way that Pakistan changes it's spots. This GOI seems to think that talking and some limited 'face saving' solution without boundary changes should do the trick. I'm of the opinion that Pakistan will never change it's spots, and so this is a futile effort, given the fact that it's delusions and formation are based on an intense hatred of India.

Another problem why our politicians look lost, is that they have internalized that a 'stable Pakistan' is in India's interests. That's where the folly lies. For every terror act on Indian soil we must invite a Baloch leader in exile for talks, or a Sindh nationalist, or a Pashtun. But we cannot do so and will not do so, till we are thinking that some how Pakistan can be stabilized.

A stable economically and prosperous Pakistan will get NWS, will have massive numbers of warheads and delivery systems and will keep raging on war with us on water, Kashmir and fomenting insurgencies, without us being able to retaliate due to it's mastery of nuclear blackmail and constant lowering of thresholds. We will have to depend on 3.5 friends to control this belligerent neighbor in the foreseeable future if that is the case. And we will never be short of Politicians who will come to power and think they can tall and cajole Pukes into being a good neighbor. Won't happen.

Phillip ji, this is not true:

Remember that the Taliban originally was created by the CIA
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by amit »

harbans wrote:Lets be clear on one thing here. With the Pakistan we are dealing with there are no solutions that have worked or going to work. Neither talks or military. No solutions have been given here that could/ can be considered to stop terror on a permanent basis. That change cannot come from a military solution without the possibility of massive damage to India, specially since the Jihadi on our West has mastered the art of Nuclear blackmail. This is a very basic point and i am sure that it's not lost upon a lot of strategists in India or elsewhere. Solutions like taking away MFN, reduced diplomatic exchange, stopping the Aman and WKK asses won't bring much difference to Paki aims or it's ability to deliver terror with impunity.

The problem that arises is what after that? Everyone is trying in some way that Pakistan changes it's spots. This GOI seems to think that talking and some limited 'face saving' solution without boundary changes should do the trick. I'm of the opinion that Pakistan will never change it's spots, and so this is a futile effort, given the fact that it's delusions and formation are based on an intense hatred of India.

Another problem why our politicians look lost, is that they have internalized that a 'stable Pakistan' is in India's interests. That's where the folly lies. For every terror act on Indian soil we must invite a Baloch leader in exile for talks, or a Sindh nationalist, or a Pashtun. But we cannot do so and will not do so, till we are thinking that some how Pakistan can be stabilized.

A stable economically and prosperous Pakistan will get NWS, will have massive numbers of warheads and delivery systems and will keep raging on war with us on water, Kashmir and fomenting insurgencies, without us being able to retaliate due to it's mastery of nuclear blackmail and constant lowering of thresholds. We will have to depend on 3.5 friends to control this belligerent neighbor in the foreseeable future if that is the case. And we will never be short of Politicians who will come to power and think they can tall and cajole Pukes into being a good neighbor. Won't happen.

Phillip ji, this is not true:

Remember that the Taliban originally was created by the CIA
Harbans ji,

Good post with a lot of very valid points.

Your point about solutions suggested here is IMO important.

I'd also like to add that whatever, IG, RG and ABV did/tried to do to prevent terror were admirable and good. But none of them really worked as a permanent solution, because if they did then we wouldn't have a terror situation today which is fundamentally far worse that what was the situation during their time. For example a Mumbai like terror attack where the Paki ISI backers made no pretence of hiding their tracks would have been unthinkable during, say RG's time.

The situation is far more menacing today than then. And, moreover, it's become far more complicated due to the Afghan situation. If prescriptions which occur on the fly to folks who are participating in a open online forum could work I'm sure the babus who are paid for this kind of jobs would have figured it out by now.

JMT
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by amit »

Chiron wrote:anyways, brahmos option can be exercised only after something as huge as 26/11 (again, if there is will)... Koota-Yuddha is option which is always on.. May be we already are playing Koota-yuddha in pakiland, who knows... just that I would love to see top and middle brass of the TSPA along with senior mullahs as victims of this koota-yuddha since they are precisely the ones who hurt the most to India.. and, it for sure does not require rambo...
Chiron,

Please don't get me wrong. I would also love to see the piglets and their masters get taken out, whether by a Brahmos or by a bullet in their heads. In fact the jingo in me pines for that kind of retaliation and I was beset with anger post 26/11 at the fact that we did not have an immediate military response.

However, when you think of it in a more cooler and rational manner, you'd probably come to the conclusion that you need to do something which, while it may not be spectacular, will cut this Hydra's head for a permanent solution. Now what's this thing we can and should do? I wish I knew but then if I did I'd probably be working for the govt. I just hope the babus who matter have some idea of what will work. Otherwise we and our children are doomed.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Suppiah »

Notice the jehadi pig is not saying they will be handed over to Afghan govt, only they will be 'deported' what that means is after the show is over and Obama's ratings have improved and the arrests slip out of Page 1, 2, 3 etc., they will be released and claimed that they slipped into Afghan and are no longer in Pakbarian animalistan.

Unkil surely knows this and would not be amused...it will also anger rank and file pure animals who will now be wondering who amongst them is the next ISI bakra for sacrifice...reactions of both should be fun to watch.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Pranav »

As regards external life support to the Pakis, the following would be a desirable architecture:

An agency like FoDP ("Friends of Democratic Pakistan") to be made the nodal agency for disbursement of military and non-military aid to the Pakis. There has to be sufficient Indian input into the decisions made by this agency. The aid packages should be designed so as to combat Islamist indoctrination, and support the groups being oppressed by Paki Jihadist-Military elites.

All baaps must channel their aid only through this agency or face consequences as regards access to Indian markets, raw materials, nuclear and defense contracts etc.

As yet India may not have the clout to bring this about, but it is something to aim for.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Philip »

Harbans,the radicalisation of Islamic republics of the former SU to revolt thereby,was a plan during the Cold war.Afghanistan was the first major conflict where it was put into being.The covert ops of the US,ISI and Saudis too-with private players like the Bin Laden group and others,entered the fray with the "Taliban" led by radicalised leaders sponsored and supported by the unholy triad.The problem was that when you radicalise or become radicalised like Osama,there is only a bigoted "black and white" vision that results.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by amit »

Pranav wrote:All baaps must channel their aid only through this agency or face consequences as regards access to Indian markets, raw materials, nuclear and defense contracts etc.

As yet India may not have the clout to bring this about, but it is something to aim for.
Boss,
This is a very important point IMO. However, you can't swing this with a US$1.3 trillion economy. Just as a reality check we need to note that even Poodlistan has an economy which in 2008 was US$1 trillion more than what ours is today - that is US$2.3 trillion. Even Italy which is likely to be the next after the PIGS to go belly up in EU has a GDP in the range of US$2.3 trillion.

However, IMO we can swing it once we cross the US$4 trillion (or so) threshold which, according to current estimates we should reach around 2020 or so.

And that's why even though it's not fashionable on this thread and is looked upon as a sign of Dhimmitude, I keep on hammering on the importance of the GDP number to make it economically costly for Paki's friends to arm it against India.

<<<<Ducking for cover, before the anti economy barbs start!>>>> :)
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by harbans »

I'd also like to add that whatever, IG, RG and ABV did/tried to do to prevent terror were admirable and good. But none of them really worked as a permanent solution

Attempted yes, but if BRF was there then,they too would have faced flak, including PVNR. It's only sometimes in hindsight things look better. In the 80's we had many killed by Paki trained Khalistani terrorists. Sometimes on a daily basis. The 93 Bombay blasts was in PVNRs time and was clearly the work of ISI and it was obvious the main perpetrators left for Pakibarianstan via Dubai hours before the blasts. What was done? We just picked up the bones and carried on. It's been 17 long years and the perpetrators of the most dastardly terror act on Indian soil still have sanctuary under the ISI. So yes while everyone wants to prevent terror, none had a solution to stop it on a permanent basis. Because there is no solution that exists with Pakistan.

When we or say the US talks of NK or Iran, they don't think of dismantling NK or Iran. But changing the way they think or do business with the rest of the world. With Pakistan this does not apply. Paki's will do business normally with the rest of the world unlike NK and Iran but will always create terror for India. So you cannot change Paki thinking. You have to change the Paki state.

Ideally we should at a minimum start responding with calling a Baloch/ Sindh independence leader for talks next time a Pune like attack takes place, instead of inviting Paki leadership. The former may help more than the latter. :)
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by harbans »

As regards external life support to the Pakis, the following would be a desirable architecture:

An agency like FoDP ("Friends of Democratic Pakistan") to be made the nodal agency for disbursement of military and non-military aid to the Pakis. There has to be sufficient Indian input into the decisions made by this agency. The aid packages should be designed so as to combat Islamist indoctrination, and support the groups being oppressed by Paki Jihadist-Military elites


What if the Paki economy does stabilize and it does'nt need 3.5 FODP? They are a 180 million strong nation. Population same size as Russia. They can get quota's for textiles and small manufacturing items in exchange for keeping terror out of their respective countries. Sort of hafta only. Once that happens, they will focus solely on India with impunity. So it won't work in the long term.

Harbans,the radicalisation of Islamic republics of the former SU to revolt thereby,was a plan during the Cold war.Afghanistan was the first major conflict where it was put into being.The covert ops of the US,ISI and Saudis too-with private players like the Bin Laden group and others,entered the fray with the "Taliban" led by radicalized leaders sponsored and supported by the unholy triad.The problem was that when you radicalize or become radicalised like Osama,there is only a bigoted "black and white" vision that results.

Philip ji, actually the roots of radicalization are also older this very conventional thought. Airavat ji's post a couple pages back is very correct and throws light on this. Also again the Taliban did'nt fight the Soviets, though many who fought joined the Taliban later. It's Ok to be critical of US policies, but lets not shove truth under the carpet.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by RamaP »

Any discussion about TSP and possible cure for menace emanating from that land is a bit incomplete without considering Uncle's possible overbearing covert influence over India's internal political system. The direction of India's foreign policy affairs especially w.r.t to TSP in the course of UPA 1 & 2 has been more comfortable for Uncle's interests than ours. If such a situation had developed say a decade or so back, we could have hoped to change the government using ballot power and elect a new leadership who cared a bit more about India's interests.

However, nowadays I am even more concerned as to whether there will ever be an ideal leadership who truly cares about India's interests over Uncle's priorities. The conspiracy theory that bothers me the most is about EVMs. If EVMs are truly compromised and if Uncle has a say in India's internal political affairs, then I guess we can safely say good bye to any chances of India giving a fitting reply to TSP in the near as well as distant future. Adding to that is the tremendous influence wielded by the Indian media, who apparently is driven by a not so subtle uncle sponsored agenda. If the above factors are even partially true, then it is truly a worrisome situation for our nation. In such a scenario, our nation would have no other choice but to keep a rather huge collection of dossiers with predefined text template ready to be sent to TSP in response to all the future terrorist bloodbaths.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by amit »

harbans wrote:What if the Paki economy does stabilize and it does'nt need 3.5 FODP? They are a 180 million strong nation. Population same size as Russia. They can get quota's for textiles and small manufacturing items in exchange for keeping terror out of their respective countries. Sort of hafta only. Once that happens, they will focus solely on India with impunity. So it won't work in the long term.
Harbans ji,

There's no way in Hell that the Paki economy can stabilise until and unless it settles into peaceful coexistence with its giant neighbour. And to do that it has to kill the jihadi demon, clean up the school syllabus which breeds hatred and detoxify the entire population of the hatred and conspiracy warmongering that seeps through it.

In fact for the Paki economy to become like that of a normal country growing by the dint of its own efforts the whole raison d'etre of the blighted nation would be gone. It's more likely we'll have snowfall in Hell before that happens.

Only massive infusion of funds from the 3.5 friends will keep the country afloat. Economic activity will soon become zilch. Already the textile industry is in a shambles and that country doesn't have any innovation worth speaking about.

Of course all these arguments will fall flat if one of the pious manages to capture a few Dijins and get them to ramp up economic growth 400 per cent. :rotfl:
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Pranav »

amit wrote:
Pranav wrote:All baaps must channel their aid only through this agency or face consequences as regards access to Indian markets, raw materials, nuclear and defense contracts etc.

As yet India may not have the clout to bring this about, but it is something to aim for.
Boss,
This is a very important point IMO. However, you can't swing this with a US$1.3 trillion economy. Just as a reality check we need to note that even Poodlistan has an economy which in 2008 was US$1 trillion more than what ours is today - that is US$2.3 trillion. Even Italy which is likely to be the next after the PIGS to go belly up in EU has a GDP in the range of US$2.3 trillion.

However, IMO we can swing it once we cross the US$4 trillion (or so) threshold which, according to current estimates we should reach around 2020 or so.

And that's why even though it's not fashionable on this thread and is looked upon as a sign of Dhimmitude, I keep on hammering on the importance of the GDP number to make it economically costly for Paki's friends to arm it against India.

<<<<Ducking for cover, before the anti economy barbs start!>>>> :)
A $4 trillion economy would help. But that would not be sufficient. India will never have enough clout without a highly credible thermonuclear deterrent. And India will never get that deterrent as long as there is this ingrained Dhimmitude.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by shiv »

Pranav wrote:
A $4 trillion economy would help. But that would not be sufficient. India will never have enough clout without a highly credible thermonuclear deterrent. And India will never get that deterrent as long as there is this ingrained Dhimmitude.
Even having a an arsenal of bombs higher than our currently universally accepted 4 kiloton fission bomb capability will not give us that clout. Just because we are afraid of Paki nukes we assume that Pakis think like us and are afraid of our nukes. They are not. It is an example of a cognitive trap to assume that the other guy thinks like you.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by shravan »

Pakistan: Explosion kills 2 in Peshawar store; 4 Mercy Corps workers kidnapped in Baluchistan
ISLAMABAD (AP) - A police official says a small explosion in a store that sold sugar has killed two people and wounded two others in Pakistan's main northwestern city of Peshawar.

Gulfat Hussain said no group has immediately claimed responsibility.

Also Friday, four Pakistanis working for the international aid group Mercy Corps were kidnapped by gunmen in the Qila Saifullah area of southwest Baluchistan province, local police official Mohammad Iqbal said. Mercy Corps officials declined to offer any immediate comment.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by shiv »

There are at least two sets of ideas that various people have put forward on this thread relating to dealing with the former Hindus of North West India currently called Pakistanis. :mrgreen:

One is to bomb the crap outta them - which is a great idea.
The second are a set of reasons why India is not doing that. If I may summarize (from memory) and a quick reading, the reasons why India is not attacking Pakistan include
  • MMS is looking for Nobel prize
  • Indians are cowards
  • The US is dictating terms
MMS looking for Nobel is a temporary problem. He will be out of the reckoning within the decade. Indians being cowards is well known to the Pakis and has not changed for millennia and is not looking like it will change soon. We have to attack Pakistan after MMS goes taking cognizance of Indian cowardice.

But what about the US? How will India get permission from the US?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by sarvadharam »

Few pages back in this thread "Divide and rule" played by Brits and Americans in India was discussed. Talking of that game we think mainly of Hindu vs Muslim. But we hardly pay attention to the game played among the Indian leadership. This speech by Malcom X aptly explains my point.

[youtube]<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/znQe9nUKzvQ&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/znQe9nUKzvQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>[/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znQe9nUKzvQ

SO they encouraged House Ns(Naram Dals) and made sure that power was transferred to them. And yes i don't consider post DeenDayal Upadhayaya BJP/Janasnagha Field Ns(Garam Dals).
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by RamaY »

shiv wrote:There are at least two sets of ideas that various people have put forward on this thread relating to dealing with the former Hindus of North West India currently called Pakistanis. :mrgreen:

One is to bomb the crap outta them - which is a great idea.
The second are a set of reasons why India is not doing that. If I may summarize (from memory) and a quick reading, the reasons why India is not attacking Pakistan include
  • MMS is looking for Nobel prize
  • Indians are cowards
  • The US is dictating terms
MMS looking for Nobel is a temporary problem. He will be out of the reckoning within the decade. Indians being cowards is well known to the Pakis and has not changed for millennia and is not looking like it will change soon. We have to attack Pakistan after MMS goes taking cognizance of Indian cowardice.

But what about the US? How will India get permission from the US?
Good summary Shiv-ji!

Small correction is that it is Indian leadership that is coward, not Indians. The problem of Indians needing to identify and elect strong leadership is of different nature.

Once we solve point 2, points 1 and 3 will be solved.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Neela »

amit wrote:
I'd also like to add that whatever, IG, RG and ABV did/tried to do to prevent terror were admirable and good. But none of them really worked as a permanent solution, because if they did then we wouldn't have a terror situation today which is fundamentally far worse that what was the situation during their time. For example a Mumbai like terror attack where the Paki ISI backers made no pretence of hiding their tracks would have been unthinkable during, say RG's time.The situation is far more menacing today than then. And, moreover, it's become far more complicated due to the Afghan situation. If prescriptions which occur on the fly to folks who are participating in a open online forum could work I'm sure the babus who are paid for this kind of jobs would have figured it out by now.

JMT
Indeed. Looking by how shamelessly the likes of SVaradarajan peddling the talks-no-matter-what line, we have gotten ourselves into a big mess here. PLease think about the above line twice. It is quite ridiculous. But then again, no point in blaming an short sighted, US citizen batting for US interests on "India's national newspaper" when we have only our politicians to blame!

I am thinking it is got more to do with the aftermath. Every PM in N.Delhi and the shell-garlands selling vendor in Kanyakumari knows the outcome in a war with PAkistan. But : do a vast majority of Indians see Pakistan as a dangerous, with no other intention but to destroy INdia
nation. I don't think so. I think this sentiment has to be established in the minds of most Indians. Without this thought, the ability to take casualties in a war with the Indian public is very limited. See, we have been slowly drugged into this situation where we say X casualties is ok as long as X is not a large number like 1000. And disturbing this situation is what, IMO, all politicians fear.

Assuming after a war, say 6000 Indians die in a span of 30 days . Now after the war, the PM would have to face the oopposition, the WKKs, peaceniks etc. Plus the intl press wouldnt be sympathetic to our cause either. With reputation at home and abraod damaged, it is political suicide for anyone doing this!


JmyT!
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by amit »

shiv wrote:
  • MMS is looking for Nobel prize
  • Indians are cowards
  • The US is dictating terms
MMS looking for Nobel is a temporary problem. He will be out of the reckoning within the decade. Indians being cowards is well known to the Pakis and has not changed for millennia and is not looking like it will change soon. We have to attack Pakistan after MMS goes taking cognizance of Indian cowardice.
Funnily enough if I remember correctly there was talk that Vajpayee was also looking for the Nobel Peace Prize during his Lahore bus yatra phase. For example this old Independent report says:
It was, for example, less than a year ago that Mr Vajpayee was plausibly said to be dreaming of getting the Nobel Peace Prize for bringing India and Pakistan together. India, under his government, has moved barely one inch towards achieving a political solution to the festering problem of Kashmir – but that is not for want of Mr Vajpayee's trying. He has repeatedly announced initiatives intended to jolt the stalemate in the direction of peace. Each time the hawks at his side have managed to frustrate him.
What's this with Indian PMs that the moment they get the gaddi in Delhi they look for the Noble Peace Prize by showering love and affection on the Pakis?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by Hari Seldon »

What's this with Indian PMs that the moment they get the gaddi in Delhi they look for the Noble Peace Prize by showering love and affection on the Pakis?
All following JLN's footsteps only. Only JLN's daughter disavowed JLN's footsteps twice (once in '71 then again in '75). LBS was also perhaps no wannabe Nehru.

The most ardent followers of WKK-awards were Morarji and IKGujral - maxm damage to Yindia they ensured. Aaak-thoo.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by shiv »

sarvadharam wrote:Few pages back in this thread "Divide and rule" played by Brits and Americans in India was discussed. Talking of that game we think mainly of Hindu vs Muslim. But we hardly pay attention to the game played among the Indian leadership. This speech by Malcom X aptly explains my point.
This same sentiment can be translated into words in many different ways. One such interpretation that I hear is:

The high caste rulers of India sold themselves out to the foreign rulers, admiring and imitating their ways leaving Indic culture to the poor downtrodden real Indians who were uninfluenced by the foreign rulers.. This is the explanation that makes reservation and positive discrimination a good idea for the real field negro Indians. It gives a recognizable group to bash.

The Pakistani view of the same thing is that where the high caste rulers were defeated the real assorted kafir Indians (untouchables etc) could be ruled over by the true rulers of the faith.

In both cases it was the high caste bad guys who had to be bashed. This sentiment still runs in India.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Post by munna »

“The shoulders are slouched and the mood is of overall hopelessness”! Make no mistake the mood is indeed despondent and the talks have begun as a result of some serious kick on the collective musharraffs of dilli billis. At the heart of this sudden reversal of fortunes lies India’s biggest foreign and strategic policy failure in the past 2 or 3 decades. To put it succinctly the current time from the perspectives of strategic and foreign policy is 1990s redux. Although I have been harsh on ABV and his NDA regime, time has come to acknowledge his contributions to the economy, infrastructure and diplomacy of India. He set the stage and in fact was the first PM who openly declared a sustained 8% growth of India as feasible.

MMS inherited extremely robust economy and strategic space from ABV and could have used it to great effects and he tried, but now it seems like that he has failed spectacularly. The foreign-service and establishment of Dilli bought the story of yindoo-yumreeki bhai bhai lock, stock and barrel. The entire nation was sold this entente via the Indo-US nuke deal and indeed we bought it. Friends, in interest of truth and objectivity I also admit to being taken in by the charm offensive and believed that there was some fundamental convergence going on. We betrayed our old allies and stifled our institutions lest our new friend might mistake it for “cold warrior” mentality. The idea was to let the Khanate squat in the region and be a net provider of security to one and all while we focus on our development. The Indian government and PMO never pictured the Black Swan that financial crisis would turn out to be. Khanate has no clothes and desperately seeks a face saving option. Baba hopium wants to sell the surrender and retreat of khan as some sort of victory just before he is scheduled to lose his next election. Baba Hopium and the entire establishment believe India to be a benign giant that is incapable of causing any problems or upheaval anywhere. Thus they believe that the only player in the Asian theatre worth arm twisting is India. Indians as per the khanate administration can be effectively made to sign away concessions because of two factors (a) Relative capacity degradation: This means that Indian capacity in terms of strategic and conventional capabilities stands degraded when compared to the kind of progress made by other players in the region. Hence we truly lack the capabilities as of now to count for much (b) Lack of Will: A slightly controversial point but there is acceptance of the racist “purelander” point of view that India and its leadership lack stomach for hard options. Hence there is almost smug complacency that in times of crisis the only leverage India has is to approach and petition khan. Khanate truly believes that for India TINA factor dictates its relations with khan. In some ways they are right too, after all under MMS we have destroyed and damaged old alliances.

The talks dear rakshaks are meant for only one thing and that is to concede, concede and concede. The only hope now lies in the triple entente of Khayyam, Chekhov and Premchand. The establishment has given up all hope and is waiting to somehow ride out the term of hopium baba. MMS has at least allowed the old channels to be reopened, as visible from Khayyam and Chekhov’s statements after the London conference. The establishment has now dug in and hopes to fight rear guard to stall and stymie the bhestern pressure. Pray India pray for now as they say in Hindi movies “ Ab isse dawa nahi dua ki zaroorat hai” (only prayers may save him and not medicine). India should not become the Poland of Asia.
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