Indian Naval Discussion

ankit-s · Post by **ankit-s** » 18 Feb 2010 17:13

what has double hatches got to do with the current discussion...however let me tell you 'ALMOST' all tankers, rather almost all Fuel/liquid storage above ships are done under double hatches. Simply because it acts as a simplified barrier, is easier to maintain and is generally safer.

So why were you worried with sloshing effects and came up with tape anology? if it is not for the outer hull (welding joints we were talking abt) of the tanker........?

The cargo hold or hatch (in harbour parlance) is a place where cargo is kept under the cover. As the concerned item is a tanker, its cargo is a fuel, because it is a refueller, hence it carries cargo (fuel) in a double hatch - which (cargo) does not even touch the outer hull - and u were talking about your wrong analogy of sloshing and tape material - very irrelevant!

Hatchway, hatch – A covered opening in a ship's deck through which cargo can be loaded or access made to a lower deck.

Even the iliterate mukadam (a deck worker - a shore based one who follows the foreman´s command) knows it. Before I left for USA I was working at Kandla port with J M Baxi and company as a supervisor, cause I was born there, I am a coastal boy who has boarded many ships. I have practicals on this whereas others (laymen) might by looking at theories and definitions

For each hold-hatch there is a dedicated crane responsible for loading or discharging (dry cargo).

ankit-s · Post by **ankit-s** » 18 Feb 2010 17:27

a big YES...structural integrity is affected by polishing the weld joints in any scenarios where the weld joint may be exposed to pressures higher than the coeff of elasticity of the weld joint

This is ABOVE from you:

And here as UNDER:

The ship is LAUNCHED...not commissioned. There is a big difference. Lets see the pics when she is commissioned. Whenever welds are done, they are done this way (yes sir)...and then they are polished down (and this applies to almost any welding which is done).

There is a jury out there - in the form of forumites.........

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 18 Feb 2010 22:57

There are 24 Barak-8's infront of bridge (4x3) cells on each side.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 19 Feb 2010 04:49

vavinash wrote:There are 24 Barak-8's infront of bridge (4x3) cells on each side.

2x4, just like in Barak-1

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 19 Feb 2010 05:12

What a waste for a 7000 tonne ship. So it has 32 Barak-8's in total?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Feb 2010 06:07

32 barak8 is a waste of the new mf-star-mki radar. even the P15 carries 48 Shtil's. 48-64 is more befitting a principal combatant.

the type45 DDG of similar size has 48 aster30 cells.

we continue to waste significant amt of space for those RBU mounts instead of finding a stealth housing perhaps on the sides or atop the bridge.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 19 Feb 2010 08:12

Project 15 INS Chennai model (Kolkata class)
I see 2 4x2 VLS clusters right behind the main gun, and 2 smaller 4x2 VLS clusters behind them.

Where are the 4x3 clusters or 32 cells of same kind?

--Added later---
Ok.. what I thought was a row seperator could be a row by itself, that would mean 2 4x3 (24) further back from the gun.

K_Rohit · Post by **K_Rohit** » 19 Feb 2010 10:11

a_kumar wrote:Project 15 INS Chennai model (Kolkata class)
I see 2 4x2 VLS clusters right behind the main gun, and 2 smaller 4x2 VLS clusters behind them.

Where are the 4x3 clusters or 32 cells of same kind?

--Added later---
Ok.. what I thought was a row seperator could be a row by itself, that would mean 2 4x3 (24) further back from the gun.

What seems to be confirmed:
24 Barak-8
16 Brahmos
2 AK-630 on each side
1 gun
HWT and LWT
2 RBUs

questions for people back from DEFExPO or who have seen the model:
1. No confirmation of Barak-1 for CIWS? Can Barak-1 be fired from Barak-8 launchers? Can the vertical launchers carry a mix of Barak-1 and Barak-8s? Much like the Spyder- QRSAM?

2. Is there a 24-cell Barak-8 aft of the funnel, before the hangar? Making it a total of 48 cells in all?

singha- why do you say 32? Do you mean 24?

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 19 Feb 2010 10:33

MiG 29Ks at INS Hansa.

Courtesy: Livefist

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 19 Feb 2010 10:35

Shameek wrote:MiG 29Ks at INS Hansa.

Courtesy: Livefist

PAD - Programme AD?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Feb 2010 11:00

compare the size of brahmos array and barak8. it seems to me each cover is
for 2 tubes. so 16 covers means 32 barak8 in front imo.

ships of this size usually have a 2nd array atop or ahead of the helicopter
hanger. It is most surprising if Kolkata does not have anything there? (cant
see it from this angle)

051C has 4 revolver VLS right on top of heli hanger
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface ... ou_02large

K_Rohit · Post by **K_Rohit** » 19 Feb 2010 11:16

Singha wrote:compare the size of brahmos array and barak8. it seems to me each cover is
for 2 tubes. so 16 covers means 32 barak8 in front imo.

ships of this size usually have a 2nd array atop or ahead of the helicopter
hanger. It is most surprising if Kolkata does not have anything there? (cant
see it from this angle)

051C has 4 revolver VLS right on top of heli hanger
http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface ... ou_02large

OH! are you saying that the cells in front are Barak-8 and the ones closer to the bridge are Brahmos? Oh! Are we sure? the cells near the bridge look very small.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Feb 2010 11:58

sorry I was mistaken - the back ones are Barak8. but looking at their sdre size why cant they stuff 32 right
there by moving things around a little inside? this is a capacious ship. two more cells lengthwise along the side anyone?

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 19 Feb 2010 12:31

>>>If a subsequent inspection certify that complete peneteration has taken place between the joints, (without which submarine can not enter water), so what is the big deal if the surface is grinded and polished for acoustic rubber tiles ?

ankit_s,

I doubt whether you are familiar with electric arc welding..do you understand the meaning of full penetration welding? when you ask the question "what is the big deal?", I feel you do not really understand what the big deal is!

Let me ask you : to begin with, why anybody would deposit additional molten metal, if it is to be ground off subsequently?

So, please realise that there is a purpose of creating a bulge on the weld joints - and this is achieved over several welding runs, depending on plate thickness. No surveyor is going to approve it, if you make it flush with the plate or grind it subsequently to make it flush, because the strength is reduced.

Secondly, grinding away the weld metal is not an easy process. It takes enormous time and skill and is often considered a wasteful exercise.

Thirdly, there is a risk of the griding wheel making deep cuts into the base plate - nobody will take a chance, particularly with critical load bearing structures, because it creates local stress concentration spots, worsens corrosion problems etc.

Ofcourse, skilled welders can create a better finish - Then again, in what position you weld matters a lot in final finsh.

I would request you to stop arguing for the sake of argument.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 19 Feb 2010 13:49

Will or has India discreetly bid for 1 of the 2 Aircraft carriers under construction in UK??

Since the formal construction of the first carrier officially started, potential foreign buyers have also taken note of the QE class carriers, with particularly India expressing an interest in the design and capabilities of the class. While India is only just in the process of taking over the former Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov for $2.3 billion, any potential British sale of carrier technology to an Asian country would naturally be a very sensitive and highly political matter.

http://www.isn.ethz.ch/isn/Current-Affa ... &id=112906

bijeet · Post by **bijeet** » 19 Feb 2010 14:00

Indian Navy to induct 4 'lethal' MiG-29K into its fleet

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Feb 2010 14:36

Nerpa/Chakra to arrive in May.

http://www.ptinews.com/news/524083_Akul ... dia-by-May

Vinay Shukla

Moscow, Feb 18 (PTI) Indian Navy will regain its underwater warfare nuclear capability in the next 60-days with the Russians assuring that the Akula-II class attack submarine the Nerpa would be delivered by mid-May.

The assurance that the nuclear submarine would be delivered "strictly on schedule" was given by top Russian shipbuilding officials to the Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, who is to visit New Delhi on a state visit next month.

Nerpa has been handed over to the Russian Navy for its sea trials.

"The 518th project, the Nerpa submarine is currently completing trials in the Pacific basin. We believe that we will be able to deliver it on time, according to agreed schedule," Chief of the United Shipbuilding Corporation Roman Trotsenko told Putin at today's meeting.

ankit-s · Post by **ankit-s** » 19 Feb 2010 14:54

Let me ask you : to begin with, why anybody would deposit additional molten metal, if it is to be ground off subsequently?

How is submarine surface so smooth so that 4 inch thik ( 2.8 X 3 feet) anechoic tile is adhesively bonded to it without 1 mm disbond?

If a presure hull, that of submarine can be smooth n polished - so can be any ship!

All I am saying is tha it is a doable (weld) job from the beginning thats all.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Feb 2010 15:24

IN has now assured the "boys" will play around 20km off the coast minimum

Goa Congress blasts navy jets’ sonic booms

arun · Post by **arun** » 19 Feb 2010 15:46

Just a reiteration of what was already disclosed namely that the Indian Navy would be increasing its MiG 29K / KUB fleet from 16 (4 delivered, 12 on order) to 45 by ordering 29 more .

Defence Minister A.K.Anthony:

India to order 29 more combat jets for navy

19 Feb 2010 ………………….

“As per the navy's requirements we will be buying 29 additional fighter aircraft from Russia," Antony told reporters after formally inducting the navy's first four MiG-29Ks.

He, however, did not lay down a timeframe for signing the fresh contract and the delivery of the additional jets. …………………..

ET

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 19 Feb 2010 21:42

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Dc2Wx4jR9F8/S ... MG2858.JPG

This was in the L&T section. Does it have anything to do with P-28's or P-28A's? Is L&T building something for IN? It looks like some Sigma designs I had seen.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 19 Feb 2010 21:53

vavinash wrote:http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Dc2Wx4jR9F8/S ... MG2858.JPG

This was in the L&T section. Does it have anything to do with P-28's or P-28A's? Is L&T building something for IN? It looks like some Sigma designs I had seen.

It's probably L&T's stealth corvette design. It's not P28 or P-28A as the info board reads 1800 T mass. IIRC P-28 is around 2500 T and P-28A should be around the same.

It's a positive development that some body except the Naval Design Bureau is designing warships for the first time in India.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 19 Feb 2010 22:42

>>>How is submarine surface so smooth

Have a look at the Foxtrots and judge for yourself how smooth/wavy is the surface. Also have a look at where all the weld joints ground..

Further, if you have hands on experience with the laying of rubber tiles on submarine hull, please explain the process. Or else, I request you to stop speculating.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 20 Feb 2010 01:28

I don't remember IN ordering 1800 tonne corvettes? Thats more like Patrol ships. Whatever happened to the new MCMVs that were supposed to join in 2008??

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 20 Feb 2010 03:34

Cross posting from China Military Watch thread

Indians offer help to China shipping

John · Post by **John** » 20 Feb 2010 04:44

Singha wrote:sorry I was mistaken - the back ones are Barak8. but looking at their sdre size why cant they stuff 32 right
there by moving things around a little inside? this is a capacious ship. two more cells lengthwise along the side anyone?

Most likely due to $$ reasons 32 more Barak-8 will easily cost $ 100 million more, with Barak being used for point defense IN found that the mixture of 32 each to be adequate for air defense. Not that i agree with it but it all comes down to $$$.

The fitting for 1800 ton corvette is similar to P-28 with the exception of Herakles like radar in place 3D CAR.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 20 Feb 2010 07:33

ok. I hope they keep some empty space though for future installation in MLU if need be.
the Type45 is also relatively austere for a ship that size. only the french are going for A70 sylver to hold brahmos sized land attack missiles (naval scalp).

I dont think anyone here is going to be happy unless we see a KDX3-MKI in Karwar as the new CG class of IN

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 20 Feb 2010 07:55

India-made stealth submarine to be tested next month

THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: After the ‘eye in the sky’, here is a home-grown spy in the sea. India is all set to test its ‘‘Autonomous Underwater Vehicle-150’’ off the Chennai coast next month. Developed by the Durgapur-based Central Mechanical Engineering Research Institute (CMERI), a unit of the Council for Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR), the unmanned vehicle, has immense civilian and military potential.

‘‘AUV-150 will be tested for sea-floor mapping and monitoring of environmental parameters, such as current, temperature, depth and salinity,’’ CMERI director Gautam Biswas told TOI. ‘‘Once the technology is proven, it will be customised for military applications, like mine counter-measures, coastal monitoring and reconnaissance. It will also be very useful in cable and pipeline surveys.’’

The project was sponsored by the ministry of earth sciences and had technical assistance from IIT-Kharagpur. ‘‘A full-scale prototype was put to freshwater test in Idukki dam in Kerala recently. All navigational parameters functioned satisfactorily,’’ said S N Shome, group head for robotics and automation at CMERI under whose supervision the AUV took shape.

The prototype weighs 490 kg, is 4.8 metres long and has a diameter of just 50 cm. It packs a wide array of gadgets into its slender frame — depth sensor, altimeter, sonar and GPS and payload sensors — apart from a hybrid communication system that uses radio waves while on the surface and acoustic underwater.
The remote controlled vehicle uses a Lithium polymer battery and can operate up to depths of 150 metres at speeds of 2-4 knots, say sources.

The AUV will leapfrog India to a select group of nations, like the US, Australia, Germany, Russia, Korea and Japan, which are vigorously pursuing autonomous underwater technology and underwater robotics. ‘‘The institute had been working on the project since 2003, but with the stress being on indigenization, it was bound to be time consuming,’’ said S Nandy, a scientist associated with the project.

ankit-s · Post by **ankit-s** » 20 Feb 2010 12:46

Have a look at the Foxtrots and judge for yourself how smooth/wavy is the surface. Also have a look at where all the weld joints ground..

How in the world you are able to see (beneath tiles) through 4 inch thick rubber tiles in a foxtrot case?

Australian Navy had problems (wear off) with these tiles on the Collins and they came up with electromagnatic waves device to inspect the disbond (0.01 to 1.5 millimeters) - something human eyes can not see through..........

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 20 Feb 2010 13:06

>>>How in the world you are able to see (beneath tiles) through 4 inch thick rubber tiles in a foxtrot case?

Still, have a look...You will realise it doesn't have any rubber tiles. Further, the wavy plates in bow section is clearly visible, as well as the weld joints on the hull. It is bare metal all the way from bow to stern.

Now, don't come back and say since it doesn't have rubber tiles, there is no need to grind...

Anyway, I am not inclined to discuss this matter any further with you.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 20 Feb 2010 13:44

ankit-s wrote:Have a look at the Foxtrots and judge for yourself how smooth/wavy is the surface. Also have a look at where all the weld joints ground..

How in the world you are able to see (beneath tiles) through 4 inch thick rubber tiles in a foxtrot case?

because the foxtrot doesn't have anechoic tiles. IIRC it was you who was arguing how smooth the submarine surface looks ignoring the fact that modern subs don't show the metal surface of the hull at all.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 20 Feb 2010 15:26

Differences Between MiG-29 Of IAF & Navy - Livefist

HI-REZ PHOTOS: MiG-29K Induction Day - Livefist

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 20 Feb 2010 15:30

FIRST PHOTOS: The Limited Upgrade Sea Harrier (LUSH) Of The Indian Navy - Livefist

PHOTOS: The Ilyushin-38 Sea Dragon - Livefist

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Feb 2010 15:54

I don't understand why the IN does not induct a few more IL-38s,just 5 SD versions are totally inadequate,despite our TU-142s also being available.The 8 P-8Is will supposedly be replacements for the Bears and will arrive only in a few years tiime,so what happens to the small IL-38SD group then? We have supposedly cancelled the RFP for medium MRPs.Pak has 7 upgraded P-3 Orions to harass the IN.There are reportedly several available mothballed IL-38 airframes which could easily be acquired so that we have at least 8 of the same which will last us until 2020. There was an intersting pic of a naval MRP version of the AN-74 (with its overwing engines) in "IAF" markings which would fill the medium MRP role very well.This size and type of aircraft would be preferable to the turbo-prop ATR MRP versions,as it could carry a range of anti-ship and anti-sub missiles like Klub,perhaps even B'Mos.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Feb 2010 16:58

Well the irony is IN refused to upgrade IL-142M to SD standards just because there was a price gap of ~ $200 - 300 million between what IN was willing to pay ( $500 million ) and what Russian expected , the last and best price from Russia was IIRC ~ $750 million.

SD upgrade with airlaunched Brahmos would have been lethal and long arm punch of IN.

Lets see what P-8I is capable of doing. They should have got the entire IL-38 and Tu-142M fleet to SD standards and keep it as a hedge against any unforeseen issue arising out of P-8I either operational issue and non-ops like sanctions.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 20 Feb 2010 17:45

Navy Inducts its Most Modern Fighters
The Indian Express

While six of the modern fighters — which the Navy says With Some Justification are Even More Advanced Than the IAF’s Su-30 MKI — have arrived in Goa and have been inducted into the Black Panthers squadron

Defence Minister A K Antony in the cockpit of a MiG-29 K fighter in Goa on Friday

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Feb 2010 18:04

It would be good to get the IN 29K DACT'd/BFM'd with IAF MKI

John · Post by **John** » 20 Feb 2010 20:45

Austin wrote:Well the irony is IN refused to upgrade IL-142M to SD standards just because there was a price gap of ~ $200 - 300 million between what IN was willing to pay ( $500 million ) and what Russian expected , the last and best price from Russia was IIRC ~ $750 million.

SD upgrade with airlaunched Brahmos would have been lethal and long arm punch of IN.

Lets see what P-8I is capable of doing. They should have got the entire IL-38 and Tu-142M fleet to SD standards and keep it as a hedge against any unforeseen issue arising out of P-8I either operational issue and non-ops like sanctions.

IL-142M you mean Tu-142M or Il-38s? Anyway i doubt either platform can carry Brahmos i think Brahmos corp was little optimistic in showing that Mig-29, Mig-27, vanilla Su-27 and Tu-142 all can carry them. Only platform that has been confirmed officially for it is Su-30mki and Su-34.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 20 Feb 2010 20:53

a_kumar wrote:Project 15 INS Chennai model (Kolkata class)
I see 2 4x2 VLS clusters right behind the main gun, and 2 smaller 4x2 VLS clusters behind them.

Where are the 4x3 clusters or 32 cells of same kind?

--Added later---
Ok.. what I thought was a row seperator could be a row by itself, that would mean 2 4x3 (24) further back from the gun.

What are those "similar to Barak cells" on the hangar, just behind the second chimney and on the second radar mast?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Feb 2010 22:13

John wrote: IL-142M you mean Tu-142M or Il-38s? Anyway i doubt either platform can carry Brahmos i think Brahmos corp was little optimistic in showing that Mig-29, Mig-27, vanilla Su-27 and Tu-142 all can carry them. Only platform that has been confirmed officially for it is Su-30mki and Su-34.

Yes I mean Tu-142M , I think both the Tu-142M and IL-38SD should be Brahmos capable (atleast internal if not wings as they may need to be strengthened ) though the numbers it can carry may vary .

Most of the Su-30 4+ Gen fighter should be Brahmos capable which includes MKI/MKM/MKK/34