Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 21 Feb 2010 02:01

There is no Reliance in "Gujrat".

^^ so where is it ! My uncle, cousin/s work in Reliance/s.. Communication, Refinery, Petrochemicals etc...they are all in Gujarat.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 21 Feb 2010 02:17

ashish raval wrote:
There is no Reliance in "Gujrat".
^^ so where is it ! My uncle, cousin/s work in Reliance/s.. Communication, Refinery, Petrochemicals etc...they are all in Gujarat.

Gujrat (Urdu/Punjabi: گجرات) is a city in Pakistan. It is the capital of Gujrat District and the Gujrat Tehsil subdivision in the Punjab Province. ...

amdavadi · Post by **amdavadi** » 21 Feb 2010 02:30

Pakis would never attack reli or jamnagar.They would end up loosing more than they can bargain for.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 21 Feb 2010 04:22

amdavadi wrote:Pakis would never attack reli or jamnagar.They would end up loosing more than they can bargain for.

I am talking of non state actors, the kind that attacked Taj hotel, Oberoi and the Parliament

amdavadi · Post by **amdavadi** » 21 Feb 2010 04:56

i am also talking about paki non-state, state actor. They are after all created & control by TSPA.They will never dare to
attack reli or anywhere near jamnagar. They have too much to loose to attack reli or any property control by reli brothers.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 21 Feb 2010 05:47

Let's refocus: Kashmir, not Kabul

Never mind Af-Pak: The world urgently needs to fix Kash-Pak. We must do everything we can to make these peace talks work, for everything, including the Afghan conflict and the lives of hundreds of millions of people, depends on Pakistan's generals being proved wrong.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 21 Feb 2010 05:53

The Pindi Manifesto

At one point during the interview, Gen Kiyani intoned emphatically, “Yes, we are India-centric.” He then went on to spell out his reasons, taking quite seriously Indian army chief Deepak Kapoor’s cold start doctrine articulated in December last. General Kiyani said, “We have unresolved issues, a history of conflict and now the cold start doctrine. Help us resolve these issues so that we can shift our attention from the eastern borders to the west. Let us normalise these burning issues. We want peaceful coexistence with India. After all, India has the capability, and good intentions can change overnight.” Strong words these.

General Kiyani also opposed the idea of India training the Afghan National Army. “Strategically, we cannot have an Afghan army on my western border which has an Indian mindset. If we have an army trained by Pakistan, there will be better interactions on the western border.” Expect an intense jostling for space between India and Pakistan in Afghanistan.

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 21 Feb 2010 06:39

Strat reporting:
"Senior members of Pakistan People’s Party advised President Asif Ali Zardari to ignore the immunity granted under the constitution, and present himself before the court, Aaj News reported on Feb. 20. According to the advisers, presenting himself before the court will not only improve the party’s reputation, but will also show that the president respects the judiciary. The president was also told that he can present himself in any proceeding of his case, but that he will make the final decision himself."

Question is how long can he survive, and who will replace the kleptomaniac.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Feb 2010 07:07

Mahendra wrote:
amdavadi wrote:Pakis would never attack reli or jamnagar.They would end up loosing more than they can bargain for.
I am talking of non state actors, the kind that attacked Taj hotel, Oberoi and the Parliament

There is another way of looking at the diversity of terrorist targets. I am not saying that what I say is the ultimate truth but it is certainly one among a whole range of possibilities.

As per their own statements Pakistani terrorist groups are trying to show that they can attack "any target" in India and that nobody is safe. Until 26/11 they had promised at least one spectacular terrorist attack every year - so that they and their cause would not be forgotten. (only 2009 was an exception) One of the ideas that they express is that India should spend large amounts of money and effort into protecting every soft target in India - but still they will be able to get through and attack someone or the other - showing that they are still there, their cause is alive and that they will not be forgotten and that they will keep fighting.

If you consider even one terrorist attack on India (from Pakistan) as a victory for Pakis and a failure for India, the war is already lost. But if you take a more callous attitude and say that we will protect 999 out of 1000 targets but will not be able to protect the 1000th and that some attacks will get through then you find that the number of attacks that are being conducted is far smaller than what can be done. We are not even protecting 999 out of 1000 soft targets. We are protecting only 25 out of 1000.

So how come only 1 out of the remaining 975 is being attacked? Good luck.good karma is one explanation. Another is good vigilance and intel. A third explanation is that this is all those terrorist groups are capable of, despite their bluster.

Paki math corrected later..

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 21 Feb 2010 07:08

Vir Sanghvi supports covert operations

http://epaper.hindustantimes.com/Articl ... 002&mode=1

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 Feb 2010 07:19

ashish raval wrote:
There is no Reliance in "Gujrat".
^^ so where is it ! My uncle, cousin/s work in Reliance/s.. Communication, Refinery, Petrochemicals etc...they are all in Gujarat.

Ashish, look at the highlighted spellings. There is a 'Gujrat' in Pakistan made famous by the 'Chor of Gujrat', Chaudhry Shujat Hussain and his clan.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 21 Feb 2010 07:30

It will be interesting to see the reaction of Pakistanis to Vir Singhvis' article. (And what's with the blue eyes?)

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 21 Feb 2010 07:34

shiv wrote: As per their own statements Pakistani terrorist groups are trying to show that they can attack "any target" in India and that nobody is safe. Until 26/11 they had promised at least one spectacular terrorist attack every year - so that they and their cause would not be forgotten. (only 2009 was an exception) One of the ideas that they express is that India should spend large amounts of money and effort into protecting every soft target in India - but still they will be able to get through and attack someone or the other - showing that they are still there, their cause is alive and that they will not be forgotten and that they will keep fighting.

A lot of bluster to camouflage the fact that most attacks are planned and timed for specific immediate political goals.

You noticed this, I hope, about the suspect arrested in South Korea.
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/na ... 61127.html

The suspect first came to Seoul in 2001 using a false passport, but was deported in June 2003 by the Immigration Service, according to authorities.

However, he returned within two months, using a new name and passport, with his wife, two sons and four daughters.

New name and passport suggests official collusion when he renamed himself and got the passport. By 2003, the US probably had its systems watching Pakistan entry-and-exit (remember 9/11?) and to get by without alarm bells ringing this man needed help. First came to Seoul in 2001: I doubt this guy is a recent ISI recruit. I suspect that Pakistan was putting people in place for possible future use back in 2001.

Don't mistake the Pakistani terrorist enterprise as some short-term ad hoc thing. And if they're creating assets in South Korea, how much more so in India. If they're not hitting India it is either because Indian intel. has managed to reduce their assets or else because a hit doesn't serve their particular political purposes, whatever they are at this point in time.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 21 Feb 2010 07:53

pgbhat wrote:Let's refocus: Kashmir, not Kabul
Never mind Af-Pak: The world urgently needs to fix Kash-Pak. We must do everything we can to make these peace talks work, for everything, including the Afghan conflict and the lives of hundreds of millions of people, depends on Pakistan's generals being proved wrong.

From this article:

For India, resolution is worth a loss of face. For Pakistan, it never will be.

The usual mantra of the west ... force SDREs to pay the price so that Pakis leave the west alone. Unfortunately, the SDREs are ruled by the good doctor MMS who always tries to squeeze SDREs as much as he can possibly get away with.

There have been some Indics in the Congress who have been trying to stem the tide, but they seem to be getting pushed out.

Watch out for the manufacturing of consent for appeasing the Paki Jihadist-military elite on Kashmir. EVMs, the controlled media and false-flag incidents would play a role.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 21 Feb 2010 08:27

The west needs to be told that if they are so hell-bent on appeasing the Pakis, then they should hand over Alaska to the Pakis. Leave India out of it.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 21 Feb 2010 08:42

I've never got a staisfactory answer questioning the wisdom of western tribalism or white brotherhood whatever you want to call it: After 9/11, where was the need for pipsequeaks like Canada/UK/Australian etc to jump on the US bandwagon? Islmaists attacked US on 9/11 as revenge for what they see as unjust US policies against them. It had nothing to do with Canada or UK or Australia. And just as Canada, ignoring TSP terror against India, pompously lectures to India on the need to resolve Kashmir to appease TSP, I wonder how much goodwill Canada would have got from Islamists had it lectured to US post 9/11 to resolve Arab-Israeli issues, and other gripes Isalmists have with US in the middle east: from supporting dictators, to grabbing their oil etc.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 21 Feb 2010 09:13

The usual mantra of the west ...

this is my pet peeve. gospel not mantra. G.O.S.P.E.L., gospel. stories akin to elephant's teeth. mantras at the very least live up upto some meter, hence may have some measurable linguistic value. gospel is pure hava. so next time you feel the urge to use mantra when you what you are really looking to say is unfounded fantasy, say gospel. please.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 21 Feb 2010 09:49

IMF sure to give us a tough time

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=27386

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan is expected to face stiff resistance in getting the country’s newly agreed budget deficit of 5.1 per cent approved in the IMF Executive Board meeting, scheduled for February 24, in Washington to qualify for the next tranche of $1.2 billion. Opposition by certain member countries is being apprehended by Pakistan’s financial minders.

...

The US, Germany and the UK have traditionally supported Pakistan within the IMF. Even India extends support in the Executive Board meeting, but there are some three to four countries, surprisingly headed by Egypt, the Muslim brotherly country, which in the earlier meetings of the board had opposed granting further relaxations to Pakistan for future tranches despite its peculiar issues like the war on terror etc.

...

Now to achieve the target of 5.1 per cent, Pakistan will slash down the development budget to somewhere between Rs 270-280 billion, but the Finance Ministry wants the development budget to be brought down to Rs 250 billion. The IMF has been asked that Pakistan would increase its revenue to Rs 1,380 billion, which is still difficult as only 4 months left to end the current fiscal, not enough time to achieve the target.

However, the official feared that Pakistan might not remain within the newly agreed 5.1 per cent budget deficit, rather it would exceed keeping in view the increasing defence and security-related expenditure and debt servicing. The official said the IMF had also identified the inter-corporate circular debt in the energy sector as a major issue of Pakistan.

The Fund has expressed it dismay over the failure of the government to resolve it once for all despite the fact the government has generated twice the amount required to retire the circular debt by marketing its TFC (Terms Finance Certificates) to the banks.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 21 Feb 2010 09:51

Country’s defence a sacred mission: PM

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=27388

Reiterating the resolve of his government to give priority to the nuclear programme and defence of Pakistan, Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani on Saturday expressed the confidence that the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission (PAEC) would strive to maintain credible minimum deterrence capability of the country commensurate with regional environment and future requirements.

“The defence of the country is a sacred mission and its solidarity a challenging responsibility,” he said while addressing scientists and engineers at the Khushab Nuclear Complex (KNC).

...

Gilani is the first prime minister of Pakistan, who visited the KNC.

Even the powerful prime ministers Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, Shaheed Benazir Bhutto and Mian Nawaz Sharif had never visited the KNC. But Prime Minister Gilani made a history on Saturday when being a chief executive of the country he visited the KNC.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 21 Feb 2010 09:53

China to help set up economic zone in Punjab

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=225276

Punjab Industrial Estates Development and Management Company (PIEDM) and a Chinese organization Asia International Development (AID) have inked a letter of understanding to set up a special economic zone besides a large industrial city in the Punjab involving an investment of $7 billion.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 21 Feb 2010 09:57

CIA wants Baradar sent to Afghanistan

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... -120-rs-05

The CIA wants Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar transferred to an American prison near Kabul for interrogation, US officials said.

Senior US officials, who spoke to various media outlets on the condition that they are not identified, said the Americans were not satisfied with the interrogation and wanted to take charge.

Interior Minister Rehman Malik said on Friday that once Pakistani agencies completed their investigation, Mullah Baradar could be handed over to his country of origin, which is Afghanistan, but not to the US.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 21 Feb 2010 09:57

abhishek_sharma wrote:China to help set up economic zone in Punjab

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=225276

Punjab Industrial Estates Development and Management Company (PIEDM) and a Chinese organization Asia International Development (AID) have inked a letter of understanding to set up a special economic zone besides a large industrial city in the Punjab involving an investment of $7 billion.

PIEDM is on facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=191836415461

Its website is still under construction:
http://www.pie.com.pk/

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Feb 2010 09:58

A_Gupta wrote: Don't mistake the Pakistani terrorist enterprise as some short-term ad hoc thing. And if they're creating assets in South Korea, how much more so in India. If they're not hitting India it is either because Indian intel. has managed to reduce their assets or else because a hit doesn't serve their particular political purposes, whatever they are at this point in time.

Not disputing this.

But when you look at any point in time after 1990 when Paki terrorism started hitting India the Paki terorists said

1) There's more to come.

And Indians responded by saying

2) We're doing what we can, but yes, there is more to come.

What did K Subrahmanyam say last week?

"Fasten your seat belts" - there's more to come

What did Paki handlers say during 26/11 "There's more to come. Th sis only the trailer"

What did the Pune attack and the infiltration bids indicate "There's more to come"

The Pakis and their terorrists are in it for the long run. We are in it for the long run as well. But what is new or surprising about all this? I see the paning out of history as follows.

Pakistan as an Islamic state was created after a few deft political moves backed by some force inside India. This really did give many Pakis the idea that force would get them what they wanted. In fact force very nearly worked in 1947-48 when half of Kashmir was annexed.

By 1962 the ruling cabal of Pakistan - mainly the army felt that India's 1962 weakness could be exploited by using force. That was what the 1965 war was about. In fact there was a feeling expressed by Ayub Khan that short sharp blows at the right time would bring India down. It did not work that way.

By 1971 there was a feeling in Pakistani circles that the defence of the East lay in the West. Any Indian hanky panky in East Pakistan would be defeated by a devastating occupation of Western India by West Pakistani forces (as occurred in 1965 as per popular Paki mythology). Again, things did not work this way.

It was after 1971 that the Pakistani military angrily and reluctantly accepted the fact that short intense blows -i.e formal war are not going to bring India to its knees. That is when the idea of jihad was implemented. Islam for indoctrination of hate and the Paki military for training and logistics. And they started "bleeding India" and promising "There's more to come"

That is what we are facing now. And yes there is more to come. Especially because Islam is used for indoctrination, destroying Pakistan the nation state is hardly going to prevent the use of large swathes of Paki territory for terrorism. That was Zia and Bhutto's main gift to the ummah and the world.

For an Indian viewpoint the Naxals are as important a problem as Paki terror. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Less terror - more importance to Naxals. More terror - less importance to Naxals. Terror and Naxals - both get importance. Naxals and Pakis would be natural allies but I don't know how the ideologies would mix.

the ponit I am trying to make is that taking down Pakistan as a nation state in an act of over war does not have too many takers within India as being a good idea. Pakistan is doing its stuff on the cheap, and let me be both callous and frank - India is getting away cheap. Declaring overt war on India would be costly for Pakistan. They know it and that is why they don't do that. They also know that an Indian declaration of open war on Pakistan would be costly for India while being relatively cheap for Pakistan.

Both India (victim of Paki terror) and Pakisan (source of Pak terror) are paying costs which neither side wants to increase. India is bearing its own costs but Paki expenses are being met by the US. That is why declaring war is more costly for India than Pakistan, and that is why the US needs to be neutralised.

But all we talk about is how to fight war against Pakistan, ignoring the elephant in the room the US of A which has funded and kept the India hating Paki armed forces alive and healthy from 1964 or so.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 21 Feb 2010 10:27

For an Indian viewpoint the Naxals are as important a problem as Paki terror.

Actually, more important. The country is stable when the middle class and poor believe that one day they can join the elite (the elite here being those who own the police), or at least lead a comfortable unmolested life. That is why economic growth is often stabilizing - if some benefits are widely distributed in the population. The Naxalites pose a direct challenge to that belief, as they don't buy into that. Pakistan only poses a physical threat. And that is why Naxalites will be coopted or crushed, at whatever the cost, but Pakistan will continue indefinitely.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 21 Feb 2010 11:31

Perhaps it is late where you are-that does not make much sense.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 21 Feb 2010 11:33

SSridhar wrote:
There is no Reliance in "Gujrat".
Ashish, look at the highlighted spellings. There is a 'Gujrat' in Pakistan made famous by the 'Chor of Gujrat', Chaudhry Shujat Hussain and his clan.

Sridhar, I thought he talked about Terrorist attack in Reliance, Gujarat and not Paki Gujrat ! Apologies

Malayappan · Post by **Malayappan** » 21 Feb 2010 11:36

Swapan's sharp pen pokes!

There are some assessments tucked inside, which pretty much sums up the situation.
Talking to Pak is blind man’s bluff
And I loved the concluding line -

For some time, it has been the unstated assumption of the UPA Government that foreign policy is beyond popular comprehension and best left that way. The punishing demands of democratic accountability can at best be encountered with ‘nuanced’ sophistry. It’s a clever Brahmanical ploy that confuses our own people but never succeeds in deterring the marauders.

This is the real situation and we need to deal with it. All who have access please activate to provide feedback. And those who don't (like me!) start blogging, tweeting and commenting! Let us do our bits.

Malayappan · Post by **Malayappan** » 21 Feb 2010 11:38

And there is one more Op-Ed, again in the Pioneer - A ‘moth-eaten’ India? Chandan Mitra this time

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Feb 2010 11:44

Malayappan wrote:Swapan's sharp pen pokes!

There are some assessments tucked inside, which pretty much sums up the situation.
Talking to Pak is blind man’s bluff
And I loved the concluding line -
For some time, it has been the unstated assumption of the UPA Government that foreign policy is beyond popular comprehension and best left that way. The punishing demands of democratic accountability can at best be encountered with ‘nuanced’ sophistry. It’s a clever Brahmanical ploy that confuses our own people but never succeeds in deterring the marauders.
This is the real situation and we need to deal with it. All who have access please activate to provide feedback. And those who don't (like me!) start blogging, tweeting and commenting! Let us do our bits.

What is a Brahmanical ploy? Is this man saying that a Brahmanical ploy is one that aids maurauders? What is the meaning of "Brahmanical ploy" when used by a Paki author versus one who is an Indian critical of the Indian government?

Assuming that Manmohan Singh is all that various people on here have accused him of being from time to time

Plodding bureaucrat
traitor
lover of America
employee of multinational coporations

or even if he is not...

How can he stop Pak glaoting and how can ge get the US away from Pakistan and stop the US from giving arms and money to Pakistan. What is special about Manmohan's Brahmanism that makes him less effective with the US than say Narasimha Rao or Indira Gandhi? Or that flash in the pan Vajpayee? He is no more effective than them and no less effective.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 21 Feb 2010 11:57

The "Brahminical ploy" is in not communicating with the people assuming such matters are above the pay grade of people outside the inner circle. Do you believe the Indian citizen knows that he has to absorb collateral damage in the form of terror attacks and talks with Pakistan in pursuit of greater strategic goals? Or as a more practical matter, that they better take extra precautions every time the government "talks" with Pakistan because terror attacks will inevitably follow such "talks"?

Plus, MMS may be just as much a "Brahmanical plotter" as his predecessors, but can still be perceived as ineffective because people are better educated and information is more easily available.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Feb 2010 12:06

A_Gupta wrote:
For an Indian viewpoint the Naxals are as important a problem as Paki terror.
Actually, more important. The country is stable when the middle class and poor believe that one day they can join the elite (the elite here being those who own the police), or at least lead a comfortable unmolested life. That is why economic growth is often stabilizing - if some benefits are widely distributed in the population. The Naxalites pose a direct challenge to that belief, as they don't buy into that. Pakistan only poses a physical threat. And that is why Naxalites will be coopted or crushed, at whatever the cost, but Pakistan will continue indefinitely.

I believe as you do that Naxals will be crushed although I hope we can do well for the ill governed people who are becoming the foot-soldiers and cannon fodder of Naxalites.

But doesn't that say a lot about why Pakistan cannot be crushed? Pakistan has been given a huge swathe of territory that is "internationally recognised" as a sovereign nation state. And the "world order" (Formerly, Britain, now the US) does not look kindly at any changes of borders not approved in Washington as being good for the US. What is good for the US is good for the "world order".

So the sovereign nation state of Pakistan has only had an army as government for decades, but that army has been kept healthy and wealthy by the US. It is all very well to accuse Manmohan Singh of a sell out to the US but as I see it India being coerced by some US action is normal. If India gets coerced with some pointless and ineffective whining it is called "standing up to the US". if India gets coerced without a word it is "India selling itself to the US" Either way India's actions vis a vis Pakistan are powerfully restricted and hemmed in by a series of US actions starting from the provision of a ready made Air Force with supersonic jets in 1964, to the delivery of nuclear capable F 16s after it was known that Pakis acquired nukes from China.

On BRF we are often silly enough to speak of a Paki stock market when we all actually know that monetary inflows from the US have kept the Paki enonomy alive all these years. War with Pakistan is universally acknowledged as likely to be stalled/restricted by "International pressure". It does not take too much brain power to understand that such pressure will not be coming from Sao Tome and Principe. The US can make or break thinga for India (and Pakistan) in an India Pakistan conflict. Pakistan will not go down until the US is taken down.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Feb 2010 12:07

vera_k wrote:The "Brahminical ploy" is in not communicating with the people assuming such matters are above the pay grade of people outside the inner circle.

I see. And where does that definition come from. may I ask?

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 21 Feb 2010 12:11

shiv wrote:I see. And where does that definition come from. may I ask?

From the two sentences preceding the mention of the term!

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 21 Feb 2010 12:14

vera_k wrote:The "Brahminical ploy" is in not communicating with the people assuming such matters are above the pay grade of people outside the inner circle. Do you believe the Indian citizen knows that he has to absorb collateral damage in the form of terror attacks and talks with Pakistan in pursuit of greater strategic goals? Or as a more practical matter, that they better take extra precautions every time the government "talks" with Pakistan because terror attacks will inevitably follow such "talks"?

Plus, MMS may be just as much a "Brahmanical plotter" as his predecessors, but can still be perceived as ineffective because people are better educated and information is more easily available.

Vera_K,

just a min. is he doing it for some "greater strategic goal"? There is no evidence of such, so please stop using such phrases which give a cover for the govt doing nothing.

Unless of course if you mean by "greater strategic goal", you mean MMS winning Nobel or Rajmata's blessings.

Shiv,

Two days ago in this very thread you were saying something on the lines like without any evidence we (as in some BRfites) are idiotic believing that MMS kowtowing to US is a childhood ghost story and today you come up with

But all we talk about is how to fight war against Pakistan, ignoring the elephant in the room the US of A which has funded and kept the India hating Paki armed forces alive and healthy from 1964 or so.

Is this some "greater strategic goal" as in your piskological experiment or as some people would call, plain old trolling.

got your post

"The wicked witch was severely reprimanded and banished and she went away for ever"

I grew up with stories like these and nowadays I will believe anything similar - like US tells India and India listens. It is my upbringing

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 12#p826112

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Feb 2010 12:18

ravi_ku wrote: Shiv,

Two days ago in this very thread you were saying something on the lines like without any evidence we (as in some BRfites) are idiotic believing that MMS kowtowing to US is a childhood ghost story and today you come up with

But all we talk about is how to fight war against Pakistan, ignoring the elephant in the room the US of A which has funded and kept the India hating Paki armed forces alive and healthy from 1964 or so.
Is this some "greater strategic goal" as in your piskological experiment or as some people would call, plain old trolling.

In fact I do not believe MMS is kowtowing to the US any more than all our great and patriotic leaders have done in the past. The others have kowtowed secrealy and with protest - like PVNR's nuclear test and Indy Gandhis punishment of 90,000 rapists. MMS is openly doing what has to be done - take cognizance of tyhe elephant in the room and not get trampled by it. Sorry if facts irritate you enough to think it is trolling.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 21 Feb 2010 12:19

I enjoy the use of Brahmin for all the ills of Indian politics!

It is a great journalistic and political crutch!

Heard of a freak call Illaya or something that can bring in this issue even when discussion nuclear deterrence?

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 21 Feb 2010 12:23

shiv wrote: In fact I do not believe MMS is kowtowing to the US any more than all our great and patriotic leaders have done in the past. The others have kowtowed secrealy and with protest - like PVNR's nuclear test and Indy Gandhis punishment of 90,000 rapists. MMS is openly doing what has to be done - take cognizance of tyhe elephant in the room and not get trampled by it. Sorry if facts irritate you enough to think it is trolling.

Shiv,

Yes, other have done it, but it was clear that it was done under protest. We do not hear a murmur of protest from MMS and even before US asks for it publicly, he is going to do it. Oh yes, he is making sure, he himself is not trampled by it. This part I completely agree, India not being trampled- not so much.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 21 Feb 2010 12:25

Malayappan wrote:And there is one more Op-Ed, again in the Pioneer - A ‘moth-eaten’ India? Chandan Mitra this time

what about joint sovereignty? Why can’t undivided J&K have a united quasi-Parliament thereby abolishing borders and giving equal say to India, Pakistan and the “people” of the State over its destiny? Washington, which loves such complex arrangements that facilitate a permanent foothold for itself in strategic regions, (erstwhile Yugoslavia being a case in point) has privately pushed this line for long.

As I told you guys several posts ago, Sujata Bose, good "South Asian" boy from Harvard was articulating this position a few years back at the Asia society as the big white boys were nodding in approval for a job well done. Pretty soon, MMS will superceede the "good South Asian" clique, he will be invited to Oslo.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Feb 2010 13:01

RayC wrote:I enjoy the use of Brahmin for all the ills of Indian politics!

It is a great journalistic and political crutch!

Heard of a freak call Illaya or something that can bring in this issue even when discussion nuclear deterrence?

Thanks for noticing the nuance.

Kancha Ilaiah has few followers on this forum. Pakis have few followers on this forum. When Pakis or Ilaiah make casteist remarks we hear howls of protest. But otherwise it seems quite acceptable to see a pejorative definition of Brahminical - as long as the person using a casteist expression is saying things that one wants to hear.

Reverse casteism is alive and well even as people purport to struggle to protect that which is Indic. At best this is a cognitive bias. Or else it is hypocrisy.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 21 Feb 2010 13:05

ravi_ku wrote:
shiv wrote: In fact I do not believe MMS is kowtowing to the US any more than all our great and patriotic leaders have done in the past. The others have kowtowed secrealy and with protest - like PVNR's nuclear test and Indy Gandhis punishment of 90,000 rapists. MMS is openly doing what has to be done - take cognizance of tyhe elephant in the room and not get trampled by it. Sorry if facts irritate you enough to think it is trolling.
Shiv,

Yes, other have done it, but it was clear that it was done under protest. We do not hear a murmur of protest from MMS and even before US asks for it publicly, he is going to do it. Oh yes, he is making sure, he himself is not trampled by it. This part I completely agree, India not being trampled- not so much.

This is exactly what I said on the previous page, when it looked like trolling to you.

shiv wrote:..as I see it India being coerced by some US action is normal. If India gets coerced with some pointless and ineffective whining it is called "standing up to the US". if India gets coerced without a word it is "India selling itself to the US" Either way India's actions vis a vis Pakistan are powerfully restricted and hemmed in by a series of US actions starting from the provision of a ready made Air Force with supersonic jets in 1964, to the delivery of nuclear capable F 16s after it was known that Pakis acquired nukes from China.