J & K news and discussion

[muraliravi]

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... epage=true

Government ready to facilitate return of Sikh youth: Chidambaram

Is it an U-turn or was the TOI report a news plant against Chiddu

[jamwal]

Consider this Indian national and resident of Jammu and Kashmir

http://marypmadigan.files.wordpress.com ... ageboy.jpg

Is rational discussion possible with this sort? Or should people just laugh and move on?

He does not look like a Kashmiri.

He is dark and he is snub nosed!

SDRE effect maybe.
Kashmiris do eat lots of rice afterall

From wiki:
Shakeel Ahmad Bhat (born around 1978), labeled as Islamic Rage Boy by bloggers around the world, is a Kashmiri Muslim Protester who has been on photographs on the frontpages of many newspapers and has become a cult figure on the Internet. He has been featured in newspapers such as the Times of India, Middle East Times, France 24. and The Sunday Mail

[A Sharma]

The Frozen Frontier

[Airavat]

Terror attacks are mere incidents

"It would do no credit to Vajpayee’s successors in BJP to create hurdles in the effort to pick up threads anew after the Mumbai atrocities" he said and added the process of dialogue should not become a zero sum game as a result of partisan political interest. The Mufti said the peace process has to rise above the incidents and knee jerk reactions.

If terror attacks are mere incidents, which we should ignore and rise above, then why of why, dear PDP patron, do you and your party get upset over even smaller incidents of someone getting injured or manhandled by security forces in the Kashmir region of J&K State? Why do you call for protests over these small incidents?

[RayC]

Antidote to stones of fury: better homes

The Omar Abdullah government is working on a scheme to quell unrest in downtown Srinagar, a strong separatist stronghold, with a flurry of development projects.

Part of the plan is to decongest the region by shifting many of its residents to new and improved housing colonies in the city suburbs.

In one house many families live together. Then in such dwelling they also have handicraft factories. This creates a psychological suffocation. They take it out on the SF given the provocation, imagined or otherwise.

By spreading these people out, it will also prevent them to congregate quickly or scheme (which is feasible since they are all huddled together and it is not a problem to attend meetings etc at the drop of a hat.

[Avinash R]

^
^Mufti should have ignored his daughter's kidnapping by terrorists instead of releasing arrested terrorists in lieu of her freedom. Only then he would have some credibility to give these type of sermons.

[RamaY]

The solution to Cashmere problem comes when a PM of India and India parliament shows his balls and abolish A370.

[RayC]

The solution to Cashmere problem comes when a PM of India and India parliament shows his balls and abolish A370.

Why so?

How about Raj Thackeray and Bal?

Are they any different?

And yet they are from the same stock as Savarkar, who was a nationalist.

Kashmir is A 379 and Maharastra is MP (Muscle Power) and Goonda gardi!

Neither the Union nor the State Govts can do a damn in Maharastra!

I think you can't buy land or have a house in Sikkim!

Why?

[Carl_T]

Ending 370 is the solution because it prevents integration of a vast section of the country into the cultural milieu of the nation.

[RamaY]

RayC ji

Didn't understand the relationship between a manly PM and Raj/Bal Thakre.

A370 is prohibiting other Indians from settling in JK. Once this is removed the Indian population will bring the necessary equilibriam.

While Raj/Bal Thakre are narrow-minded, they did not occupy the policy positions in the last decade and half. There is a limit to chauvinism in a democratic setup. It is a different thing that Bal Thakre doesn’t see this, perhaps for valid reasons. Raj Thakre is in the game for INC not for SS.

That said, this thread is about JK, not Mumbai. So request you to focus.

[CRamS]

The solution to Cashmere problem comes when a PM of India and India parliament shows his balls and abolish A370.

I agree, but doing so will propel TSP into a tizzy, perhaphs they will interpret it as a declaration of war. Its 3.5 friends will castigate India at the UN for its provocation. The Kashmiri Muslims will go into feversih pitch, WKKs and assorted Kuldip Nayars and Praveen Swamis and Bakaras and Rajdeeps not to mention Arundathis wll all but declare India a Hindu fascist state and call for US intervention. In short, India is a pygny of a power, soft as a jelly bean to make such a move and be able to withstand the world's furious reaction.

[RamaY]

CRamS garu,

If India as a nation and GOI as its representative cannot withstand the (multi-dimensional) pressure in establsihing its philosophy and soverignity in JK then what is the purpose of million-strength IA, nuke-weapons, top grade IT/technology provess, visionary leadership, and 1+ billion population?

How could we expect an outsider, be it UN or US or PRC or TSP to respect our rightful demand when we ourselves are not sure of it?

[RayC]

RayC ji

Didn't understand the relationship between a manly PM and Raj/Bal Thakre.

A370 is prohibiting other Indians from settling in JK. Once this is removed the Indian population will bring the necessary equilibriam.

While Raj/Bal Thakre are narrow-minded, they did not occupy the policy positions in the last decade and half. There is a limit to chauvinism in a democratic setup. It is a different thing that Bal Thakre doesn’t see this, perhaps for valid reasons. Raj Thakre is in the game for INC not for SS.

That said, this thread is about JK, not Mumbai. So request you to focus.

I don't want to be confrontationist.

The equation of Bal and Raj and your contention of the PM and Article 370 if you have not understood, then it is sad. True, I did not spell it out in very clear terms, but then observing your posts I thought you were sagacious to understand!

Article 370 makes Kashmir sanitised

Bal and Raj is also trying to sanitise Maharastra!

One is by the Constitution and the other is by dadagiri!

I am focussed. I presume I have more experience of J&K than you. I have also lived a great part of my childhood and my service in Maharastra and also worked in a Maharastrian unit. I do claim that I understand Maharastra to a great extent.

Therefore. while one is using the Constitution to keep people out, the other is using dadagiri and fear to keep non Mahrastrians out!

No rocket science.

Why I brought it in this issue is because what is sauce for the goose, should it not be sauce for the gander?

Yes, Article 370 is ridiculous, but then so is Bal and Raj's crap.

BTW, why cannot I have a house in Sikkim?

[RamaY]

RayC ji

Valid questions. Kindly give me some time to research and respond.

[CRamS]

CRamS garu,

If India as a nation and GOI as its representative cannot withstand the (multi-dimensional) pressure in establsihing its philosophy and soverignity in JK then what is the purpose of million-strength IA, nuke-weapons, top grade IT/technology provess, visionary leadership, and 1+ billion population?

How could we expect an outsider, be it UN or US or PRC or TSP to respect our rightful demand when we ourselves are not sure of it?

Indeed thats the question even I introspect about. I was only pointing out the reality.

I think what is going on in India is a silent sort of "civil war" between nationalists and others who are at best are ambivalent about the idea of an India that asserts its Hindu identity, and this will continue until one side can overwhelm the other. If the nationalists win, TSP will be history, while if the other side wins, India will go the former Soviet union and Yoguslavia way.

The problem with nationalists is that they have nothing much to show unlike TSP nationalists (army/ISI/LeT). So this gives the other side in India ammunition in claiming that their approach is paying dividneds, for e,g. 9% growth, no terror attack since Mumbai (Pune notwithstanding), pat on the back by the white boys, nuke deal etc. But if the nationalists can take the war to TSP, and then do the equal equal, you dismantle LeT, then we stop pummeling you, then the other side in India will have no leg to stand on.

[Neshant]

TSP nationalists

doubt they are nationalist. more like feudalist.

[Gerard]

BTW, why cannot I have a house in Sikkim?

Article 371 F of the Indian Constitution?
Or more accurately - the Sikkim state land acquisition law that is protected under article 371F?

[Carl_T]

I agree, but doing so will propel TSP into a tizzy, perhaphs they will interpret it as a declaration of war. Its 3.5 friends will castigate India at the UN for its provocation. The Kashmiri Muslims will go into feversih pitch, WKKs and assorted Kuldip Nayars and Praveen Swamis and Bakaras and Rajdeeps not to mention Arundathis wll all but declare India a Hindu fascist state and call for US intervention. In short, India is a pygny of a power, soft as a jelly bean to make such a move and be able to withstand the world's furious reaction.

Even if the Kashmiri Muslims get angry, what are they going to do if we are effective in cutting off the supply of weapons to the valley?

I'm sure the IA does this, but IMHO as long as we keep choking the supply of arms to the valley and integrate it into the union, it can work.

[Carl_T]

I don't want to be confrontationist.

The equation of Bal and Raj and your contention of the PM and Article 370 if you have not understood, then it is sad. True, I did not spell it out in very clear terms, but then observing your posts I thought you were sagacious to understand!

Article 370 makes Kashmir sanitised

Bal and Raj is also trying to sanitise Maharastra!

Isn't that the point, that ethnic "sanitisation" in the manner of the Thakres is enshrined in the Constitution?

[Sanku]

Uhhh article 370 is in the CONSTITUTION OF INDIA

Is Raj T also a part of CONSTITUTION ?

Despite all the BS that Raj T has done, check the list of dead in Pune? How many "Marathi speakers?"

Let us stick to topic and not bring in all manners of unconnected issues.

[Carl_T]

~deleted~

[Sanku]

Uhhh article 370 is in the CONSTITUTION OF INDIA

Is Raj T also a part of CONSTITUTION ?

I don't know if you were responding to me, but that is exactly what I said.

Err nopes, to RayC.

[CRamS]

I agree, but doing so will propel TSP into a tizzy, perhaphs they will interpret it as a declaration of war. Its 3.5 friends will castigate India at the UN for its provocation. The Kashmiri Muslims will go into feversih pitch, WKKs and assorted Kuldip Nayars and Praveen Swamis and Bakaras and Rajdeeps not to mention Arundathis wll all but declare India a Hindu fascist state and call for US intervention. In short, India is a pygny of a power, soft as a jelly bean to make such a move and be able to withstand the world's furious reaction.

Even if the Kashmiri Muslims get angry, what are they going to do if we are effective in cutting off the supply of weapons to the valley?

I'm sure the IA does this, but IMHO as long as we keep choking the supply of arms to the valley and integrate it into the union, it can work.

We have been trying for the past 20 years, but nothing changes on the ground. TSP's induction of LeT has been a game changer. Prior to that India had pretty much rendered Hizbul a bunch of goats, and Kashmiri Muslims will have slowly accepted the reality; Indian democracy would have done the trick; have them by their b@lls, and then win their hearts and minds through bengin incentives. But LeT, which is basically TSPA, gives India a run for its money, and kept Kasmiri Muslims' hatred of India alive and kicking. India physcially controlls the valley, but TSP, through its political proxies (APHC) and LeT thwarts any forward movement to cement India's soviergnty irreversibly. Nothing will change unless and until India can extract a stiffer price from TSP.

As it stands now, the joint soverignty BS is gaining currency, and its the best both sides can get given the ground realities. But something like that would suit TSP just fine in the interim, but it would a total sell out and disaster for India; albeit in slow motion. Given Indian public's penchant for "great power" delusion, and no opposition to speak of, US, through its proxies like MMS is inexorably pushing this strategy, which the gullible Indian public will lap up.

[Carl_T]

We have been trying for the past 20 years, but nothing changes on the ground. TSP's induction of LeT has been a game changer. Prior to that India had pretty much rendered Hizbul a bunch of goats, and Kashmiri Muslims will have slowly accepted the reality; Indian democracy would have done the trick; have them by their b@lls, and then win their hearts and minds through bengin incentives. But LeT, which is basically TSPA, gives India a run for its money, and kept Kasmiri Muslims' hatred of India alive and kicking. India physcially controlls the valley, but TSP, through its political proxies (APHC) and LeT thwarts any forward movement to cement India's soviergnty irreversibly. Nothing will change unless and until India can extract a stiffer price from TSP.

As it stands now, the joint soverignty BS is gaining currency, and its the best both sides can get given the ground realities. But something like that would suit TSP just fine in the interim, but it would a total sell out and disaster for India; albeit in slow motion. Given Indian public's penchant for "great power" delusion, and no opposition to speak of, US, through its proxies like MMS is inexorably pushing this strategy, which the gullible Indian public will lap up.

My issue is this: LeT/JeM etc can be state-backed powerful groups in PoK and TSP. However, how do they exactly project their power in J&K? Is there a weapons and cash smuggling network that we have not been able to shut down? If there is a cross-border network, can we shut it down by physically sealing the J&K borders? Can/do we send UAVs to patrol the LoC?

[Sanku]

My issue is this: LeT/JeM etc can be state-backed powerful groups in PoK and TSP. However, how do they exactly project their power in J&K? Is there a weapons and cash smuggling network that we have not been able to shut down? If there is a cross-border network, can we shut it down by physically sealing the J&K borders? Can/do we send UAVs to patrol the LoC?

Thats a pretty basic question, aint it?

They project power in J&K by sending in men, material and money, all three, in substantial quantity.

Yes, one approach could be to physically seal the border, along with a stronger internal security system in deeper areas, this has been a continuing approach of IA (Brig RayC has often talked about the 3-tier system in place). There is also border fencing.

However given the terrain, the really difficult weather (which knocks down fences even) and the sheer length of border, combined with the TSPA support for infiltration; it is difficult to ensure 0 rate of entry.

Further the Terrorists can also get into J&K through other routes in India, including via Nepal. Thus the fortress concept is both expensive and difficult to practice and also has lacunae.

The other approach is to shut of the valve of those sending the men and material by directing pressuring TSPA so that they cease and desist or their hands are tied; this is what was attempted by NDA govt and was pretty successful (Parakaram) leading to the turn around and a fairly improved picture today.

[CRamS]

My issue is this: LeT/JeM etc can be state-backed powerful groups in PoK and TSP. However, how do they exactly project their power in J&K? Is there a weapons and cash smuggling network that we have not been able to shut down? If there is a cross-border network, can we shut it down by physically sealing the J&K borders? Can/do we send UAVs to patrol the LoC?

In addition to what Sanku said, let me add that this where hardcore Islam comes in. Even any half-brained people would have accepted the reality that India will not part with the valley but is looking for other ways to achieve peace and would reciprocate. Look at the #of initiatives India has launched, all to no avail. But the LeT are hardcore suicidal scum. They are dying for glory in Allah's paradise including 72. You kill 10, another 100 more will be motivated. So thus, no matter how much you seal the border, those who are not scared of dying will cross and create mayhem. This is where the RAPE come in. If you extract a price from them, then we can begin to tackle the LeT problem. Anyway, all what I saying is not new, we on BR have spent reams and reamls of pages regurgitating and beating to death what I just said. India needs a game changer.

[dnivas]

He does not look like a Kashmiri.

He is dark and he is snub nosed!

SDRE effect maybe.
Kashmiris do eat lots of rice afterall

From wiki:
Shakeel Ahmad Bhat (born around 1978), labeled as Islamic Rage Boy by bloggers around the world, is a Kashmiri Muslim Protester who has been on photographs on the frontpages of many newspapers and has become a cult figure on the Internet. He has been featured in newspapers such as the Times of India, Middle East Times, France 24. and The Sunday Mail[/quote]

wow, never realized he had his own wiki. "rage boy"

[Carl_T]

They project power in J&K by sending in men, material and money, all three, in substantial quantity.

However given the terrain, the really difficult weather (which knocks down fences even) and the sheer length of border, combined with the TSPA support for infiltration; it is difficult to ensure 0 rate of entry.

Further the Terrorists can also get into J&K through other routes in India, including via Nepal. Thus the fortress concept is both expensive and difficult to practice and also has lacunae.

If not completely cutting off the supplies, is it not possible to use unmanned surveillance like UAVs to patrol areas instead of risking men to do so in harsh weather? Perhaps we would be able to cover huge areas of land that way.

Do electrified fences exist like in Jurassic park?


The reason I'm asking about how well we seal J&K is because I talked to a Pakistani guy some while back, and he told me about how one of his relatives likes to cross over the border and travel through India.

[Carl_T]

In addition to what Sanku said, let me add that this where hardcore Islam comes in. Even any half-brained people would have accepted the reality that India will not part with the valley but is looking for other ways to achieve peace and would reciprocate.

While being important I don't think "hardcore Islam" is to blame. IMHO this is primarily an ethnic nationalism that has been happy to use Islam as its rallying point to create a nation from an imagined community while finding sympathy from other imagined "kindred spirits" of Muslims. From my (limited) experiences, Kashmiri Muslims consider themselves to be a separate people, and if that is so, then they will see India's opposition to giving up Kashmir as a mere roadblock to their eventual imagined independence.

I feel hardcore Islam is a later additive, coinciding with the surge in religiosity in the 80s.

Look at the #of initiatives India has launched, all to no avail. But the LeT are hardcore suicidal scum. They are dying for glory in Allah's paradise including 72. You kill 10, another 100 more will be motivated. So thus, no matter how much you seal the border, those who are not scared of dying will cross and create mayhem. This is where the RAPE come in. If you extract a price from them, then we can begin to tackle the LeT problem. Anyway, all what I saying is not new, we on BR have spent reams and reamls of pages regurgitating and beating to death what I just said. India needs a game changer.

Apart from the military front, there has to be a response to their ideology. To come out against Islamism ideologically I think we should consider controlling what mullahs say, (if it is not done already) and if need be, covertly appoint our own.

[Airavat]

From my (limited) experiences, Kashmiri Muslims consider themselves to be a separate people

There are Hindu, Muslim, Sikh kashmiris, but if only Muslims regard themselves as "a separate people" then it's hardcore Islam. The earliest days of this Islamism (featuring attacks on non-Muslims) were in the 1920s and 30s, not just in the Kashmir region of J&K, but across all India.

[Carl_T]

From my (limited) experiences, Kashmiri Muslims consider themselves to be a separate people

There are Hindu, Muslim, Sikh kashmiris, but if only Muslims regard themselves as "a separate people" then it's hardcore Islam. The earliest days of this Islamism (featuring attacks on non-Muslims) were in the 1920s and 30s, not just in the Kashmir region of J&K, but across all India.

I never said there is no hardcore islam, but it is not the main cause. Rather it is the consequence of Islamic separatism.

You're making big leaps in logic in order to do that. If Kashmiri Muslims say that Islam is an integral part of their "national identity" juxtaposed with other national identities, it doesn't mean it's "hardcore islam".

Hardcore islam refers to adherence to a particular set of beliefs, not about its role in national identity.

Unless of course you think that Jinnah was a follower of "hardcore islam"!

[svinayak]

There are Hindu, Muslim, Sikh kashmiris, but if only Muslims regard themselves as "a separate people" then it's hardcore Islam. The earliest days of this Islamism (featuring attacks on non-Muslims) were in the 1920s and 30s, not just in the Kashmir region of J&K, but across all India.

Only Indian muslims look at Islam as a seperate nation. No other country follows this logic.

[CRamS]

Carl_T:

For me hair-splitting distinctions don't mean much. Yes, Kashmiri Muslims do consider them separate: combination of their Pakijabi like TFTA superiority complex & Islam.

[Carl_T]

- CRS
They don't mean too much to me either, but discussion of "hardcore Islam" as the problem needs hair-splitting.

[Sanku]

They project power in J&K by sending in men, material and money, all three, in substantial quantity.

However given the terrain, the really difficult weather (which knocks down fences even) and the sheer length of border, combined with the TSPA support for infiltration; it is difficult to ensure 0 rate of entry.

Further the Terrorists can also get into J&K through other routes in India, including via Nepal. Thus the fortress concept is both expensive and difficult to practice and also has lacunae.

If not completely cutting off the supplies, is it not possible to use unmanned surveillance like UAVs to patrol areas instead of risking men to do so in harsh weather? Perhaps we would be able to cover huge areas of land that way.

Do electrified fences exist like in Jurassic park?


The reason I'm asking about how well we seal J&K is because I talked to a Pakistani guy some while back, and he told me about how one of his relatives likes to cross over the border and travel through India.

Electrified fences exist in places as well as plain vanilla fences, UAVs will help but not a bullet proof solution (in fact look at the total length that has to be monitored 24x7 and see how many UAVs and how many sorties you will need. In short UAV will help only marginally more.

UAVs are indeed being used.

Also Pakistani's can indeed travel through India legitimately right now (sad but true)

------------------------

Also all nations based on "Islamic identity" eventually end up as Hardcore Islamic in short spans of time.

[RayC]

Sanku,

Any idea how these fences are organised and how the terrorists are stopped?

[AjayKK]

Kashmir valley's stone pelters graduate to petrol bombs

Stone-throwers have added lethal petrol bombs to their armoury to target security forces in strife-torn Kashmir. The disturbing trend is now fast catching up with the youth.

“Petrol bombs were thrown at security forces some places during recent stone pelting incidents. Youngsters were seen using those petrol bombs,” CRPF spokesman Prabhakar Tripathi said.

Nearly 1,500 CRPF jawans have been injured in stone pelting incidents in the past one-and-a-half years. Around 373 vehicles were also damaged due to stone pelting during that period.

“We are interrogating them. The government has proof at hand to show that huge money in being pumped into such violent activities by vested interests. They don’t have any ideology. The government will soon expose the sponsors of the stone throwers,” Jammu and Kashmir chief minister Omar Abdullah said.

The hard-line faction of Hurriyat Conference has called for a Kashmir Bandh on Saturday to protest the crackdown on stone throwers.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_ka ... bs_1349687

[Avinash R]

Stone-pelting an act of war: J-K govt

The Jammu-Kashmir government has decided to arrest stone-pelters for 'waging war against the state', a crime punishable with death or life in jail. The state has already slapped the Public Safety Act against eight stone-pelters, all between 15 and 18 years old, over the past week while 16 youths from downtown Srinagar are being tried under section 121 of CrPC (waging war against the state). Sources in the state Home Department told The Indian Express that the government was ready with PSAs against "20 more such youths"...

[Sanku]

Sanku,

Any idea how these fences are organised and how the terrorists are stopped?

RayC, I am a little confused about your question, in the sense you have yourself talked a lot about these aspects on the forum, yet you are asking me something which is pretty basic and definitely you would know far far more than I would. So I am a little confused, what exactly are you asking of me.

However just for fun some open source info

nice pics are here
http://www.allvoices.com/news/5094128-b ... ched-alert

Some more info
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/EL03Df05.html

Fencing in J&K was first attempted in 1994 but was stopped because of relentless Pakistani fire. Fencing along the international border in Jammu began in early 2001. Progress has been slow, as the BSF has had to work under constant Pakistani shelling. Work on the LoC started around May this year. The barrier is no ordinary fence. Around 260 aggregate tons of cement, iron pickets and steel wire are required to fence a kilometer, writes Murali Krishnan in the Indian weekly newsmagazine Outlook. A kilometer of fence costs between Rs 2.5 million (US$55,000) and Rs 3 million depending on the terrain, and the entire fencing project in J&K is estimated to total around Rs 11 billion.

More daunting then the monetary cost of the fence is the physical challenge involved in erecting it. Travel and transport to the site are not easy tasks and often involve days of trekking. The fence runs through difficult terrain, snaking across high mountains and through thick forests and deep ravines. Fencing is not possible in some areas where the topography is particularly difficult for workers to overcome.

The Indian fence along its western frontier is part of a multi-tier security setup, including sensors, thermal imagers and night-vision devices. When completed, the fence will be electrified in some sections where infiltration is particularly high. While infiltration is said to have fallen in some sectors where the fence has been erected already, there have been cases where militants have managed to get through after cutting the wire.

And some more
http://www.financialexpress.com/news/tw ... er/123217/

The 743 km-long fence, at places electrified and backed by a host of state-of-the-art human detection gadgets like sensors and thermals, was the showpiece of the year for the Army and played a significant role in India taking a major initiative to deinduct troops from Jammu and Kashmir (J&K), first time since 1989.

[Murugan]

Stone Pelting Gang Leader Caught