Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[Austin]

But you can bet on open source you can find more information on Agni than Topol-M , well for most part thanks to Aruns write up.

Well then you should not blame DRDO, right ? You know well DRDO didnt hired Arun for their publicity.

Well I am not blaming them , what I am stating is DRDO too is as vocal about its Agni as MITT is about Topol. The opensource info on Agni so more due to Aruns work there

But about the official information both DRDO and MITT crow about their stuff.

[Singha]

technically is it possible for a ICBM TV to gather/carry some fuel on it ways up,
then RV drops off and becomes a beast of a scramjet which flies at 50,000ft and
Mach20 on a zig zag path toward its target for say last 2000km ?

[Kanson]

Well I am not blaming them , what I am stating is DRDO too is as vocal about its Agni as MITT is about Topol. The opensource info on Agni so more due to Aruns work there

But about the official information both DRDO and MITT crow about their stuff.

Official policy sir..you think w/o Gov nod people will talk abt Strategic systems. On the contrary do u hear similar type of talk on K-15 and other SLBM in development?

[Kanson]

technically is it possible for a ICBM TV to gather/carry some fuel on it ways up,
then RV drops off and becomes a beast of a scramjet which flies at 50,000ft and
Mach20 on a zig zag path toward its target for say last 2000km ?

without scramjet, RV can do high mach numbers with additional motor(s) doing zig zag. Minuteman achieved that at that time itself this zig zag RV. Gathering LO2 is possible - theoretically. Benefit of using scramjet is it reduces the fuel load by taking the oxidiser(o2) from the atmosphere. If ICBM has to carry that fuel , you can better use an ordinary simple motor....

[Singha]

background pic is of a Agni railway TEL, PSed over some desert scenery
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 723525.JPG

[manjgu]

kanson ji... on your formulation of LCH carrying ARM 's. while it looks theoritically possible but not sure if it is done practically as tsarkar rightly pointed out. You seem to assume that such missiles are available in plenty/profusion and choppers are geared for firing such missiles. i have no idea really on this matter. i sincerely hope the ARM does not cost more that what it is supposed to bust??

[Varoon Shekhar]

"Very well researched, insightful, splendid analysis."

But why is the guy dismissive of the idea of a missile being accepted or inducted, after 3-4 tests? Isn't this supposed to the standard around the world.

[Victor]

Depressed trajectory of a missile is a flight path that is flat rather than parabolic in order to reduce time to target and give the least possible warning to the enemy. It is achieved with active guidance and control throughout the entire flight, including terminal stage. The interesting thing is that it is designed to deliver a first strike at short range from a submarine. The idea is to subdue and delay enemy retaliation long enough for longer-flying but more accurate missiles to take out enemy silos. The less-accurate depressed trajectory missiles simply explode a series of devices in the airspace high above enemy missile sites to make their navigation systems unusable for the required amount of time.
From here:Launch on warning.

[sumshyam]

Sky’s the limit

Beijing’s dismissal of the DRDO’s claims that its missile technology is superior to that of China might provoke knee-jerk patriotism in Delhi. But no one in the world disputes that China is way ahead of India in missilery and military uses of space. By transferring missiles and their production technology, China has also put Pakistan ahead of India. Instead of acknowledging the reality and redoubling the effort to catch up, the DRDO is making extravagant claims. Take, for example, its head V.K. Saraswat’s claim that the Agni-III, with its 3000 km range, is ready for “induction” by the services. A weapons system inducted after just four tests including one failure? This is the kind of sanctimonious self-congratulation that the DRDO has doled out for decades. Because they wrap themselves in the flag, we are not supposed to ask questions, only clap. Saraswat has claimed that “there is no need to produce and store missiles in today’s world”. Really? China has more than 1000 missiles pointed at Taiwan; and is producing and deploying missiles in scores every year.

This could be ignored but for the fact that it has begun to create diplomatic problems for India. Take the claim that India is developing anti-satellite weapons. Here he is talking about a weapon system that does not exist; and the Chinese have conducted ASAT weapon tests in 2007 and 2010 without making any claims in advance. Did he have the political clearance to say this? Did he consult the foreign office which is campaigning in Geneva against an “arms race” in outer space? Even bolder is talk of targets for Agni-III in China and Pakistan. Since when has it become the DRDO’s responsibility to decide on nuclear targeting? One had assumed that was the job of the nuclear command authority under the prime minister.

Meanwhile, the ministry of defence appears to have no oversight of the DRDO and the minister, A.K. Antony, seems out of the loop. Speaking at a conference in Delhi last week, Antony thundered against the “militarisation of space”. Has anyone informed the poor minister that space has been “militarised” for decades? The international debate today is about deploying weapons in space. While the minister of defence makes banal statements, his scientific adviser is boasting about space weapons. Why Delhi, which claims to be a responsible nuclear power, allows this dangerous drift at the MOD and DRDO is one of those known unknowns in Delhi.

[Sridhar]

This seems to be an editorial in the Indian Express. Hence the absence of the author's name. Shekhar Gupta and his team making sense?

[geeth]

>>>I'm thinking your definition is a very basic one. Doesnt apply to multiple or multi stage propulsion.

It is not my definition saar! read what is "ballistic", you will understand what I mean.

If the warhead after following a ballistic trajectory, is guided in its terminal stage, then, that portion is no more ballistic. In ballistic trajectory, gravity alone acts - like a stone thrown up.

[pkudva]

How many guys in this forum still feel the rage given my the govt is final....well i would again like to know no country in the world makes public the ranges of the strategic missiles.

Hence i rate the range of the agni-3 even more and agini-2's range may be near 3000kms. just a feeling by looking at the dimensions of the agni-3 ,its looks huge and bulky carrying lot of fuel on board.

Hence,it will be foolish for the govt to sat that agni-5 will not be an ICBM, according to me it will be a true ICBM.

[Sridhar]

Sanku –

I will define it as a cruise missile, because it has a controlled flight path throughout, with a boost, sustain and probably terminal boost flight profile.

But if it has a significant ballistic phase as well, then it cannot be classified as a cruise missile. While we don't know full details yet, there are some indications that it has a ballistic phase (read the T.S.Subramaniam article for instance).

Hybrid motor – Dr Saraswat meant dual pulse solid propellant motor as described earlier by Austin & me. That is the latest in thing in propulsion, it allows the 276 kg Barak 8 fly longer and perform better than the 720 kg Akash.

Could you support this conclusion? What in any of the public domain information gives any evidence of dual pulse solid propellant motor in the Shaurya? Depressed trajectory does not automatically mean dual pulse. BTW, Dr. S did not use the phrase 'hybrid motor', he specifically used the phrase 'hybrid propulsion', which has unambiguous meaning. So if he did not mean what he very clearly said, who knows what he meant!

Everything is speculation. The only unambiguous piece of information was about hybrid propulsion, but as per Ajai even that is not true. (there is of course still the possibility that Dr. S meant what he said, but Ajai does not understand it).

[Kanson]

kanson ji... on your formulation of LCH carrying ARM 's. while it looks theoritically possible but not sure if it is done practically as tsarkar rightly pointed out. You seem to assume that such missiles are available in plenty/profusion and choppers are geared for firing such missiles. i have no idea really on this matter. i sincerely hope the ARM does not cost more that what it is supposed to bust??

To be frank i dont know what our military planners are upto. Thats why the question.

The question was asked on the basis that the whole warfare is undergoing transformation across the spectrum and the setbacks faced by the Apache in Iraq. To put it the other way, what is the intended role for LCH ?

[Kanson]

"Very well researched, insightful, splendid analysis."

But why is the guy dismissive of the idea of a missile being accepted or inducted, after 3-4 tests? Isn't this supposed to the standard around the world.

Nope, I was sarcastic....

You see...from the link i quoted USA planned to field this new technology( Hybrid propulsion, not so new) by 2005/10, Now India claims it had fielded such tech in one of their missile.

Work will start in earnest on hybrid rocket engine components in FY98 as part of this international cooperative effort. The technology developed from this work could feed future missile programs in the 2005 - 2010 time frame.
....
From this the technology will then be ready for a interested missile system program office such as AMRAAM or AIM 9-X to pick up and include in their missile system.

Now read once again the title of the Shaurya piece written by Ajai.

I reads: "Shaurya surfaces as India’s underwater nuclear missile: New “hybrid” technology more advanced than China’s or Pakistan’s"

It will be all clear why we say we are advanced wrt to China. Now what that paper actually done is similar to communist propaganda...It has the same cadence and it pull you to stupor upon convincing with their point. Unless one has to some background to understand ...all poor abduls will definitely fall for it.(Just go through the comment section in Indian express). That is the state of journalism in India and from Indian express...run by Shekhar Gupta (thanks Sridhar). I have seen Gupta in some TV program and he doesnt seems to be cynical. But this piece reeks of communist propaganda...Maybe like Hindu...this Newspaper might have selectively sold their soul to Panda?

Foot note: 1. DRDO hasnt revealed many of the things done in Agni and Shaurya...It will take sometime for the world to understand...I would say, in my capacity, Agni has more latest technology than one can imagine and i can say it is superior to Trident.

2. From the current missile man of India
Hybrid propulsion: There are two stages in Hybrid propulsion - solid propulsion and liquid propulsion. This kind of propulsion compensates the disadvantages of both propulsion systems and has the combined advantages of the two propulsion systems.

[Kanson]

>>>I'm thinking your definition is a very basic one. Doesnt apply to multiple or multi stage propulsion.

It is not my definition saar! read what is "ballistic", you will understand what I mean.

If the warhead after following a ballistic trajectory, is guided in its terminal stage, then, that portion is no more ballistic. In ballistic trajectory, gravity alone acts - like a stone thrown up.

Good sir, I'm not saying you are wrong....What i'm trying to say is Ballistics is a vast field of study and has different branches...

[ramana]

Agni TD was also a hybrid by this definition. It had a solid fuel first stage and liquid fuel second stage.

[KrishG]

Agni TD was also a hybrid by this definition. It had a solid fuel first stage and liquid fuel second stage.

No it's not for different stages. A hybrid rocket stage generally has solid fuel and liquid oxidizer. They together form a single stage. The liquid oxidizer is injected into the solid CC to ignite the fuel. ie The rocket has aspects of both solid and liquid engines.

The main advantage of the hybrid rocket is that you can throttle the engine by controlling the rate of liquid oxidizer injected which a pure solid rocket can't. A lot of thrust can be generated while at the same time you can throttle it to an extent.

[Anujan]

Agni TD was also a hybrid by this definition. It had a solid fuel first stage and liquid fuel second stage.

There are modern Gel propellants. Storable and non leaky unlike liquids, Controllable and restartable unlike solids.

[vasu_ray]

what is the chance that a variant of Shaurya will be the long range ABM interceptor the PDV with altitude ceiling at 150-200kms? afterall, PAD is a Prithvi variant

from wiki, SM-3 from the Aegis system is smaller in dimensions with altitude ceiling at 250kms and has 4 stages

[Kanson]

Agni TD was also a hybrid by this definition. It had a solid fuel first stage and liquid fuel second stage.

Can be called..along with PAD. But if we take the littile help from the "missile man" in defining what is hybrid, we have to see whether Agni TD negates the disadv of two systems(solid and liquid) and co-opts their advantages. The answer is it is not. So we moved from Agni TD to full fledged solid fuel Agni 2. Whereas Gel propulsion can be called as Hybrid as it exihibits all the properties and characters of Hybrid propulsion.

[Kanson]

what is the chance that a variant of Shaurya will be the long range ABM interceptor the PDV with altitude ceiling at 150-200kms? afterall, PAD is a Prithvi variant

from wiki, SM-3 from the Aegis system is smaller in dimensions with altitude ceiling at 250kms and has 4 stages

You cant equate PAD/PDV with SM-3 but with THAAD. THAAD is designed for both exo and endo intercepts so as PAD/PDV. THAAD has energy management to pluck the low hanging fruit. PAD does that via modified Prithvi liquid engine. So you can expect PDV to have something similar, provided Shaurya is a hybrid propulsion and India has mastered the hybrid propulsion.

[csharma]

Kanson, Can you describe some of the technologies in Agni that you think are innovative/world class. Thanks.

For Shaurya, I think the hybrid propulsion makes it world class and ahead of regional competition. For Agni 3, it is not clear to me.

[Kanson]

^^ Two things can be shared...
1. Accuracy: Latest French SLBM is stated to have the accuracy of 300-400m. For the Conventional Tident( not the original Trident-D5) - the latest one - it is announced to have 10 m. But for Agni-3 it is said to be in single digit - demonstrated. There is possible use of tech *similar* to terrain matching systems.

2. Trajectory shaping: It can shape the trajectory at the end game to hit variety of targets. Very useful to hit hardened targets as well as any targets using conventional explosives.

You can get an idea if you go throu' this.
http://www.armscontrolwonk.com/2486/can ... sian-silos

[Nalla Baalu]

IIRC the video clip from Press Conference following successful Agni-3 trial, Dr. Saraswat's says something like... '... it is this one area we are ahead of the chinese...', and the context was ABM interceptors. Going by yardstick of mere number of tests of the BMD system, it was more than reasonable statement. Media played it out of context and seemed to suggest that we are ahead Chinese in entire range of missile technologies. Couple of days later, there was a response from some Chinese defence university professor/analyst who seemed to suggest in response to Dr. Saraswat's statement that Indian BMD programme has not matured in the area of detection, possibly alluding X-band class long range BM detection radars.

The Indian Express editorial says that Chinese have conducted two ASAT tests one in 2007 and another in 2010. Wasn't the 2010 chinese test their first BMD test? I feel the editorial belongs to 'defence reporting errors' thread as well.

SA to RM said something reasonable and the chinese un-official response was measured. Trust DDM to make a mountain out of mole hill.

...For Shaurya, I think the hybrid propulsion makes it world class and ahead of regional competition. For Agni 3, it is not clear to me.

[Kanson]

^^ Ok fine. If Shaurya is indeed a hypersonic cruise missile and comes with this so called hybrid proplusion then we have to accept the fact that India has fielded hypersonic curise missile much ahead of others, just as Brahmos is the only supersonic cruise missile deployed in the world and that proves that India is much ahead of others in missile technology. Why to pop before it hatches, no?

[sumshyam]

^^ Ok fine. If Shaurya is indeed a hypersonic cruise missile and comes with this so called hybrid proplusion then we have to accept the fact that India has fielded hypersonic curise missile much ahead of others, just as Brahmos is the only supersonic cruise missile deployed in the world and that proves that India is much ahead of others in missile technology. Why to pop before it hatches, no?

hereis a link...in the support for the Hypesonic claim.

Anyhow wiki says that ::

defence scientists say the high-speed, two-stage Shaurya has high maneuverability which also makes it less vulnerable to existing anti-missile defence systems.[7] Shaurya can reach a velocity of Mach 6 even at low altitudes. On November 12, even before the missile crossed a distance of 300 km, it reached a velocity of Mach 5, heating up its surface to 700{+0} Celsius.

[vasu_ray]

Thanks Kansonji, hopefully the hybrid propulsion shows up in the PDV as well, and until the Chinese SSBNs venture into Indian ocean we may not see a naval deployment of ABM interceptors?

[John]

^^ Ok fine. If Shaurya is indeed a hypersonic cruise missile and comes with this so called hybrid proplusion then we have to accept the fact that India has fielded hypersonic curise missile much ahead of others, just as Brahmos is the only supersonic cruise missile deployed in the world and that proves that India is much ahead of others in missile technology. Why to pop before it hatches, no?

Shaurya is a quasi ballistic missile similar to Israel's LORA?

[vasu_ray]

In case of north and north east deployment of Shourya and ABM interceptors how well we could utilize the mountain rangess for altitude launch?

1) given, Shourya's first stage booster is separated at 5km altitude from sea level

2) The Sword fish radars will have a better view of Tibet and beyond improving its tracking range hence the ABM interceptors with longer range and flight ceiling can be deployed?

[Kanson]

^^ Ok fine. If Shaurya is indeed a hypersonic cruise missile and comes with this so called hybrid proplusion then we have to accept the fact that India has fielded hypersonic curise missile much ahead of others, just as Brahmos is the only supersonic cruise missile deployed in the world and that proves that India is much ahead of others in missile technology. Why to pop before it hatches, no?

Shaurya is a quasi ballistic missile similar to Israel's LORA?

LORA is a typical SRBM with a typical Ballistic trajectory. But upon re-entry it manoeuvers to what IAI calls as "shaped trajectory flight" and hits the target. So it could be called as Quasi ballistic missile.

But Shaurya, from various sources, appeared to have a flat trajectory. And from Ajai's story on Shaurya says it is stated as a cruise missile.

Now top DRDO scientists have revealed that the Shaurya is not a ballistic missile, as it has been thought to be; it is actually a hypersonic cruise missile, which never leaves the atmosphere.

So we cant say Shaurya is similar to LORA. But it is similar to a tactical missile having Strategic tinge, or it is otherway around, a Strategic missile with tactical use.
--------------
Brahmos CEO talked of only air launched role for hypersonic Brahmos 2.

BrahMos Aerospace CEO and managing director A Sivathanu Pillai told reporters here on Tuesday that a final shape of the project, aimed at developing the aerial version of BrahMos missile that could traverse at speeds between Mach 5 to Mach 7, would emerge shortly.

More at : Modalities of BrahMos-II project to be finalized soon http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/ind ... z0gEDjHsN3

Further this blog states

The laboratory testing of the missile has started. Another, longer ranged variant is also being considered, although joint development would not be possible, since Russia is a signatory to the MTCR".

Though this could be possibly mean Indian version of Brahmos missile for longer range, it stands out clear that India is engaged in the development of hypersonic cruise missile, apart from the Joint Indo-Russian hypersonic Brahmos missile.

[Kanson]

Thanks Kansonji, hopefully the hybrid propulsion shows up in the PDV as well, and until the Chinese SSBNs venture into Indian ocean we may not see a naval deployment of ABM interceptors?

Barak NG is supposed to have ABM capability. So plans are afoot.

Thanks Shyam.

[Austin]

^^^ It would be interesting to see who takes the responsibility in developing the scramjet engine for Brahmos 2 ,scramjet engine will form the heart of such hypersonic missile.
Lets hope this time DRDO develops the engine and not the other way around.

[Prem Kumar]

^^ Two things can be shared...
1. Accuracy: Latest French SLBM is stated to have the accuracy of 300-400m. For the Conventional Tident( not the original Trident-D5) - the latest one - it is announced to have 10 m. But for Agni-3 it is said to be in single digit - demonstrated. There is possible use of tech *similar* to terrain matching systems.

Kanson: do you have any evidence to backup the Agni-3 single digit accuracy claim (or) is this some panwalla info? From the reports published so far, the CEP claim for Agni-3 is 40m

[vasu_ray]

Barak NG is supposed to have ABM capability. So plans are afoot.

Thanks Shyam.

Shyamji, if Barak NG goes that way, will the land based Barak variants be far behind?

[tsarkar]

Sridhar,

Since old people like me & Dr Saraswat are exposed to jargon and theories all our lives, we often tend to correlate new events with old jargons/theories rather than invent new terms like salesmen.

So I consider Sea Harrier capable of better maneuvering than Su-30 and that is sacrilege to many in BR. Most chaps use the terms like Cobra/Kulbit while I use VIFF that was coined two decades ago.

So when Dr Saraswat says hybrid propulsion, and we can see visually know his baby is fully solid fuelled, without any air intakes indicating engines or liquid engines, we can understand he is not speaking of hybrid propulsion in the classical sense, but two different solid propellant modes.

Similarly 40 km is too low an altitude even for depressed trajectory at 750 km range. Agni 1, which is ballistic, reaches an altitude exceeding 100 km for a range of 700 km. We can do the calculations (that I am presently lacking time to do) that can prove it mathematically as well. Plus it is published that Shourya is powered throughout, and that takes it out from the ballistic missile category.

[Kanson]

^^ Two things can be shared...
1. Accuracy: Latest French SLBM is stated to have the accuracy of 300-400m. For the Conventional Tident( not the original Trident-D5) - the latest one - it is announced to have 10 m. But for Agni-3 it is said to be in single digit - demonstrated. There is possible use of tech *similar* to terrain matching systems.

Kanson: do you have any evidence to backup the Agni-3 single digit accuracy claim (or) is this some panwalla info? From the reports published so far, the CEP claim for Agni-3 is 40m

http://frontierindia.net/gni-3-flight-t ... e[quote]It was a text book launch and followed the trajectory with single digit guidance accuracy. All the subsystems of the Missile functioned in a copybook manner giving an outstanding integrated performance of the Missile in terms of Range and accuracy. [/quote]
http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 102369.ece

An elated V.K. Saraswat, Scientific Adviser to the Defence Minister, called it “a fantastic launch and a hat-trick.”

Talking to The Hindu from Wheeler Island, he said, “it shows the maturity of the missile’s design and the quality of its systems because we have had three successes in a row without any blemish.”

“The flight gave us the full range and pin-point accuracy. The missile travelled accurately its entire range to its last decimal place as we had planned. ”

40m was set as expected accuracy, i.e. necessary accuracy needed for the strategic role as kind of benchmark. But what was achieved was much more than that, exceeding the expectation. Any ball hit over the rope line in Cricket is called Sixer. Even if it crosses the stadium and not just the boundary mark, in official status, it is called Sixer only, na, something like that. There was similar description attributed to the accuracy of the Prithvi/Dhanush missile too.

[Kanson]

Barak NG is supposed to have ABM capability. So plans are afoot.

Thanks Shyam.

Shyamji, if Barak NG goes that way, will the land based Barak variants be far behind?

I'm not shyam...yes land variants can also do that. And dont mix up that with ADD/PAD. Every missile in future is expected to have some form of ABM capability. And Barak land variants does that. If Stunner can, why not Barak. Pls google for Stunner missile details.

[Kanson]

^^^ It would be interesting to see who takes the responsibility in developing the scramjet engine for Brahmos 2 ,scramjet engine will form the heart of such hypersonic missile.
Lets hope this time DRDO develops the engine and not the other way around.

I was hoping it would be that way. An Indian official is quoted to have tested the hypersonic missile in the lab setup. By the words going around, the missile man is determined to personally see India a hypersonic missile hub. You see "hub"

[Kanson]

IIRC the video clip from Press Conference following successful Agni-3 trial, Dr. Saraswat's says something like... '... it is this one area we are ahead of the chinese...', and the context was ABM interceptors. Going by yardstick of mere number of tests of the BMD system, it was more than reasonable statement. Media played it out of context and seemed to suggest that we are ahead Chinese in entire range of missile technologies. Couple of days later, there was a response from some Chinese defence university professor/analyst who seemed to suggest in response to Dr. Saraswat's statement that Indian BMD programme has not matured in the area of detection, possibly alluding X-band class long range BM detection radars.

The Indian Express editorial says that Chinese have conducted two ASAT tests one in 2007 and another in 2010. Wasn't the 2010 chinese test their first BMD test? I feel the editorial belongs to 'defence reporting errors' thread as well.

SA to RM said something reasonable and the chinese un-official response was measured. Trust DDM to make a mountain out of mole hill.

...For Shaurya, I think the hybrid propulsion makes it world class and ahead of regional competition. For Agni 3, it is not clear to me.

May i humbly submit the Indian superiority in Missile technology in the words of Seniors instrumental to DRDO agency's achivement.
1. Akash
http://www.drdo.org/dpi/prahlada_interview.html

Tactical missiles, which strike several war jets flying faster than sound, are more complex. Only three or four countries such as the US, Russia and France have developed operational multitarget-handling surface-to-air missile systems. With last month's user trials of Akash, India has entered the club. China and Taiwan may soon follow suit.

But there is something more to Akash. It uses solid fuel. No country, except Russia, has mastered solid fuel technology in tactical missiles. Not even the US. That way, DRDO scientists consider Akash superior to the US Patriot.

2. Agni

"We feel our accuracy is better than China's DF 21," Saraswat said of the Agni-III, a "China-specific deterrent", according to India's The Telegraph on Wednesday.

As for China, the DRDO scientists said the 2,500-km DF-21 missile is the closest it has to Agni-III. Beijing is also working on other versions, including carrying it over 6,000-km to 8,000-km range, yet “our accuracy is better than China.”

India on Wednesday announced it will test Agni-V missile with a range of 5,000-kilometre within a year, asserting the country’s capability to develop ballistic missiles remains ahead of China.

Agni-III is technologically superior and more accurate than Chinese missiles, according to Agni Program Director Avinash Chander.

3. Regarding BMD and Supersonic missile, these doesnt need any highlightment...

So in general one can say, Indian missile tech is considered to be superior to China and not just in BMD alone.