Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Jan. 29, 2010

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 22 Feb 2010 21:49

Another reference to Pakistan - No 1 demographic catastrophy

http://www.businessinsider.com/10-count ... n-growth-1

Population change by 2040: +38%
Median age in 2010: 21.3
Median age in 2040: 29.4
Birth rate: 65 out of 223

Pakistan is rapidly becoming the fourth most populous country in the world, but that does not make it one of the BRICs. Far more than neighbors India and China, Pakistan lacks the infrastructure for educating its surging population and the economy for employing them.

"Time is running out to put appropriate policies in place. The absence of this may result in large-scale unemployment and immense pressure on health and education systems. In short, a socio-economic crisis may take place, making the demographic dividend more of a demographic threat,” said Durr-e-Nayab of the Pakistan Institute of Development Economics.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Feb 2010 21:51

CRamS wrote: What a disgrace that MMS is the only leader, that India, a nation of a billion people can trot out to represent them. I can't recall who said that, but a nation always doesn't deserve the leaders it gets, but the leaders it gets are, whether in a democracy or a dictatorship, are representative of the people's ethos, culture, history, aspirations, etc at large.

This mahatma has never been elected but always nominated even for the post that he is currently occupying.

We don't deserve this but greater powers are at play than just the Indian people or the electorate.

Which other country or people will ever tolerate or accept so docilely the power structure that we have?

A puppeteer with full authority and no responsibility!

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 22 Feb 2010 22:01

Jarita wrote:Another reference to Pakistan - No 1 demographic catastrophy

This raises a point on which some research is needed. Namely that neither the US nor China can reverse the laws of physics, economics and finance. They can prop up a near-viable Pakistan but not much more. Can we draw up a balance sheet for Pakistan and see how close to the brink it is?

What I'm getting at is suppose you had an enemy that was a small country of 6 million people. Well that could be Israel or it could be Haiti. The implications for you of superpower support to each of those countries is rather different. Now Pakistan lies somewhere in the continuum between these two extremes, obviously, and is in the class of countries of 100-200 million people. Still, an objective evaluation of where it is would be useful.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 22 Feb 2010 22:03

A rhetorical question - if India is going to make unilateral concessions to Pakistan because of the US, then why is the US insisting that India undergo a process of talks, etc. Why not just force India to announce the concessions up front?

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 22 Feb 2010 22:12

A_Gupta wrote:
Jarita wrote:Another reference to Pakistan - No 1 demographic catastrophy
This raises a point on which some research is needed. Namely that neither the US nor China can reverse the laws of physics, economics and finance. They can prop up a near-viable Pakistan but not much more. Can we draw up a balance sheet for Pakistan and see how close to the brink it is?

What I'm getting at is suppose you had an enemy that was a small country of 6 million people. Well that could be Israel or it could be Haiti. The implications for you of superpower support to each of those countries is rather different. Now Pakistan lies somewhere in the continuum between these two extremes, obviously, and is in the class of countries of 100-200 million people. Still, an objective evaluation of where it is would be useful.

It matter not. It is important in the geopolitical narrative of west & middle east to have a strong Islamic nation in the subcontinent. The country will not be allowed to fail at our expense. Unless we step in and change the play

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 22 Feb 2010 22:31

Another Paki trained terrorist planning to plead guilty:
New York terror suspect Najibullah Zazi to plead guilty

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 22 Feb 2010 22:35

Jarita wrote:
What I'm getting at is suppose you had an enemy that was a small country of 6 million people. Well that could be Israel or it could be Haiti. The implications for you of superpower support to each of those countries is rather different. Now Pakistan lies somewhere in the continuum between these two extremes, obviously, and is in the class of countries of 100-200 million people. Still, an objective evaluation of where it is would be useful.

It matter not. It is important in the geopolitical narrative of west & middle east to have a strong Islamic nation in the subcontinent. The country will not be allowed to fail at our expense. Unless we step in and change the play

I dont know how long will it take to understand this. India has to step in and do the work.
“India cannot escape the responsibility of tomorrow by evading it today.”

Tamang · Post by **Tamang** » 22 Feb 2010 22:40

Headlines Today video report - Hafiz Saeed threatens India with jihad

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 22 Feb 2010 22:55

Just conjecture (I maybe am more optimistic abt pple than most) but if a politicians and bureaucrats are selling India out, it is out of fear and not necessarily greed in this particular scenario. I would not put greed out of the picture but this is fraught with risks and no amt of nobel prizes will be reward enough (that can also be thrown into the mix later).
I wonder how much US/UK intelligence has on our politicians to keep their traps shut and make them acquisient. This has to be from top down.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 22 Feb 2010 23:00

Acharya wrote: I dont know how long will it take to understand this. India has to step in and do the work.
“India cannot escape the responsibility of tomorrow by evading it today.”

And how do we know what work India has to do without a better knowledge of the ground reality?

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 22 Feb 2010 23:04

Tamang wrote:Headlines Today video report - Hafiz Saeed threatens India with jihad

1947 this beast tasted blood and since then will not stop baying for more and more blood. We cannot change it back to a herbivore. But do we have the will to destroy it - which is the only solution?
As long as there is this fundamentalism, India will be target. 20th century fundamentalism is the creation of certain agencies (of course the propensity was there). Does India have the will to destroy it? That is the only solution.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 22 Feb 2010 23:09

shiv wrote:US has given USD 12bn as aid to Pakistan. It has even sent it some F-16s recently. America is not anti-India.(really?? Well blow me down! )

The situation is a bit more complex than that. US forces are also in Afghanistan taking the fight to the jihadis. Is that not a pro-India activity? India could have replaced the US in Afghanistan, thereby removing the last bit of Pakistani leverage on the US, if it could afford to increase defence expenditure - which it is not able to do because of an unfinished development agenda at home.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Feb 2010 23:14

vera_k wrote:
shiv wrote:US has given USD 12bn as aid to Pakistan. It has even sent it some F-16s recently. America is not anti-India.(really?? Well blow me down! )
The situation is a bit more complex than that. US forces are also in Afghanistan taking the fight to the jihadis. Is that not a pro-India activity? India could have replaced the US in Afghanistan, thereby removing the last bit of Pakistani leverage on the US, if it could afford to increase defence expenditure - which it is not able to do because of an unfinished development agenda at home.

The US certainly wants Indian boots to replace american boots in afghanistan.

That is certainly an anti India wish or proposal!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 22 Feb 2010 23:15

Some was talking about taking the 'cheap' options. This pay rent as long as possible attitude is causing Sikh-beheadings

This is what I meant when I said the leadership being businessmen instead of protectors of Bharatiyata. That is the "Raja Dharma" GOI must be doing. Everyone for one and one for everyone.

If Bharat wants to protect lives then it should protect Indian lives first, irrespective of the costs.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 22 Feb 2010 23:16

chetak wrote:The US certainly wants Indian boots to replace american boots in afghanistan.

That is certainly an anti India wish or proposal!

I don't follow why that is an anti India wish or proposal. Why do you think Indians are not being deployed to Afghanistan? IMO it all comes down to the financial cost involved.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 22 Feb 2010 23:17

A_Gupta wrote:
Acharya wrote: I dont know how long will it take to understand this. India has to step in and do the work.
“India cannot escape the responsibility of tomorrow by evading it today.”
And how do we know what work India has to do without a better knowledge of the ground reality?

So you are for Indian proactive action in afpak, at fundamental level.

When will India be ready for action in your opinion? Another 10 years?

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 22 Feb 2010 23:20

Meanwhile, in pookistan, you must have friends in high places to travel free. PIA pilot flies friend sans boarding pass

A pilot of Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) flew his friend to London without ticket and boarding card bypassing all formalities, Geo News reported Monday. Defying all rules and regulations, Gardezi stunned personnel of the FIA, immigration and the ASF that formalities will be completed later.

The flight than departed but soon was forced to land at Karachi airport again after a passenger Azam Khan got heart attack. Allah sees and knows all

Captain Hamid declared himself as a close friend of Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani and Salim Zaidi called him as a friend of President Asif Zardari.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Feb 2010 23:32

vera_k wrote:
chetak wrote:The US certainly wants Indian boots to replace american boots in afghanistan.

That is certainly an anti India wish or proposal!
I don't follow why that is an anti India wish or proposal. Why do you think Indians are not being deployed to Afghanistan? IMO it all comes down to the financial cost involved.

The NDA lot almost got us into iraq because Bush was very keen to see Indian troops there. Mercifully we managed to escape that. Thanks to the commies ( who sometimes unknowingly do good ).

The amrekis are now increasingly seeing afghanistan as a regional problem and are wishfully hoping that the "regional" power will step up and play its part.!

The Indians are vary of being pulled into such a un winnable conflict because the amrekis will continue to extend full support to their favorite illegitimate monster son through the CIA.

And you will have the shitty al-qaeda jehadi lot heading for mainland India as fast as they can.

Finance is not even mentioned as you would end up spending billions of dollars per week with supply lines at the mercy of iran, russia and the porkis.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 23 Feb 2010 00:11

Could it be that the upcoming love making between MMS and TSP under the tutelage of Unkil is more related at begging TSP a role for India in Afganisthan than anyhing to do with Kashmir? In other words, Unkil sees India as a useful idiot in Afganisthan as doing all the heavy lifting once Stanaley boy get 6 medals of honor, Patreius gets 8, Mullen gets 10; Holbrooke gets Nobel piss; after scaring a few rope trick Talibunnies and leaving. TSP is another useful idiot who provides "good terrorists" to make sure both Afghanis and Indian SDREs behave. But since India wants to be involved in Afganisthan, Unkil has said make love to TSP first and see if they will allow you. What an impending super power India under MMS has become.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 23 Feb 2010 00:47

Boss everyone let us get a few things clear, so that there is no unnecessary heartburn and analyses are more accurate.

1. MMS is all about status quo. He is there so that Rahul Gandhi can become PM of India, as the head of the congress party.
2. By current trends, only with Rahul Gandhi can we expect India to take new initiatives, that have been accumulating for some time now. ABV was the last PM who did things that were building up on the PM's desk. (before this IG and JN were perhaps the only two PMs who did this). So let us pray that Rahul Gandhi is a Jingo like us.

3. To do these things, one needs a leadership, which will engage forthcomingly with other international leaders and get things done. In international diplomacy, babus do 90% of the job, the National leader sets policy and does the untying of the knots - that's about 10%.
MMS is not doing the untying of the Knots.
4. But have faith, MMS is NOT going to give away J&K to Pakistan. He will not do it, he does not have the authority to sell it to the Congress I or the people of India. The current status quo will be maintained. He will do very well with what mandate he has been given, and I suspect history will view his time on the PM's chair very very favorably. His repeated peace overtures to Pakistan seem more directed at cooling the temperature so that he gets the space to do the things he has the mandate for. No point in reading too much into these repeated peace initiatives.
5. What we need be more aware of is what have other PMs (IG, ABV) promised pakistan and the americans with regard to J&K in the past.
I hear this LOC=International Border coming up with irritating regularity, which is against what I was raised up to believe, and it is against the parliament resolution. There are suggestions, that at Simla IG is supposed to have told ZAB that LOC=IB is OK with India.
6. So the current dispensation at GoI will more or less bide the time, enter into deals to keep the boat in the middle of the river, and try to hand over to the next dispensation, by keeping the nation in as best a situation as possible, with a much stronger economy, and a much improved military might. DON'T EXPECT ANYTHING DRAMATIC TO HAPPEN AT INDIA'S INITIATIVE.

My personal opinion is that:
1. With time US's support to Pakistan will only increase, not decrease. The US is not leaving afghanistan. Pakistan's military spending is being nearly completely subsidized by its 1+2.5 friends, its economy might totter at the brink but will NOT be allowed to fall over.
2. The international community will frown at any changing of borders done unilaterally. So attacking pakistan to liberate POK is not on the table.
3. Pakistan does not have the military muscle to do another 47 or 65. It does not have the inclination in current times to do a kargil presently. (even with Kargil, musharraf's aims were modest - Apart from the 'walk into siachen' taking over the valley was not envisaged as fesable. No possibility of that being attempted in the near future)
4. We can't do a 71 on balochistan, not with the current military strength, and the current leadership.
5. All this essentially means that India is not going to war with Pakistan in the near future at all. What India can and will do is to make things very difficult for the pakistani army.
6. Hafiz-e-pig is jumping up and down, he is getting too prominent for his own good. Limelight is never good for those with shady characters.

More on this a little later. Please give your opinions.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 23 Feb 2010 01:06

A_Gupta wrote:
I dont know how long will it take to understand this. India has to step in and do the work.
“India cannot escape the responsibility of tomorrow by evading it today.”

And how do we know what work India has to do without a better knowledge of the ground reality?

That is why India spends so much money on Military, agancies and other departments which are paid to find out the ground reality and what work India has to do.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 23 Feb 2010 01:36

Delhi had better watch out for the next 36-48 hrs. Everytime haiz-e-pig jumps up and down with a mike in his hand, his sleeper cells wake up.

After Pune there is going to be an incrementally increased level of terror attack, most possibly in Delhi itself.

Perhaps a series of simultaneous bomb blasts. Everyone there and in other major cities, be careful

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Feb 2010 01:53

In other words as it gets closer to the 'talks' date expect more attacks.

negi · Post by **negi** » 23 Feb 2010 01:59

Gagan I would just say all said and done MMS is hajjaar times better than the crown prince ; former at least rose through the ranks as far as the system is concerned .

amdavadi · Post by **amdavadi** » 23 Feb 2010 02:00

Talks going to be this week? I suspect someone is not happy about ind-paquis talk.

Who knows, someone who wanted to be invited for chai-biskoot, didnt got the invitation in the mail so what better way to rang mein bhang.

amdavadi · Post by **amdavadi** » 23 Feb 2010 02:08

He is the only prime minister who has never won a lok sabha seat.There were other prime minister in the past who came from rajya sabha, but they did get elected on lok sabha seat once they became PM. MMS chose health reason not to contest LS seat.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 23 Feb 2010 03:10

What difference does it make if he is elected or not?
The indian voters have elected lucchas and lafangas in hundreds in each general election.
Rapists, felons, gun runners, SIMI members, match fixers, black marketeers routinely fight and win elections

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 23 Feb 2010 03:20

Talks with Pakistan will be restricted to terrorism, says Nirupama Rao

http://www.hindu.com/2010/02/23/stories ... 771000.htm

Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao on Monday made it clear that talks with Pakistan later this week would be restricted to India’s “core concerns” over cross-border terrorism.

Asked whether India would be willing to discuss Kashmir if Pakistan brought up the issue, she evaded a direct reply saying: “We have to move slowly and deliberately on all issues.”

...

“We hope we can build, in a graduated manner, better communication and a serious and responsive dialogue to address issues of concern between our two countries,” she said.

In the past, India’s efforts to normalise relations with Pakistan had been “undermined” by Islamabad’s failure to deal with Indian concerns on terrorism, she said, pointing out that calls for “jihad” against India by Pakistan-based militant groups continued to be made openly even as the two countries were preparing for talks.

...

“Act decisively”

It was “essential,” she said, that Pakistan cracked down on anti-India groups and got rid of terror infrastructure.

...

Ms. Rao acknowledged that in the face of threat to its own security from terrorists Pakistan had taken some steps but said these were “selective” measures and did not go far enough.

...

She enumerated the steps India was taking to protect itself from cross-border terror but said terrorism could not be dealt with by national efforts alone.

“Global efforts to tackle the problem also need to be intensified. Terrorism needs to be countered collectively and expeditiously,” she said and called for early adoption of a Comprehensive Convention on International Terrorism tabled at the United Nations in 1996.

...

In her speech, “Perspectives on Foreign Policy for a 21st Century India,” Ms. Rao described India as a “force of moderation” in the region.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 23 Feb 2010 03:22

All issues concerning bilateral ties will be discussed: Krishna

http://www.hindu.com/2010/02/23/stories ... 750100.htm

All issues concerning bilateral ties, “time permitting,” will be taken up during India-Pakistan Foreign Secretary-level talks on Thursday, External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna said here on Monday.

Mr. Krishna stated this while replying to a question whether India would take up the killing of two Sikhs in North-West Frontier Province.

India has maintained that while it will focus on terrorism, Pakistan can raise issues of vital concern to it at the talks which, External Affairs Ministry sources said, could last between two and two and a half hours.

Bhima · Post by **Bhima** » 23 Feb 2010 03:29

Beheadings Shatter Sense of Security for Non-Muslims in Pakistan

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 23 Feb 2010 03:51

Nothing to it folks-not Pakistani government, not koran, not religion, not Muslims, not ordinary Pakistanis. Pakistan secure for non-Muslims only.. Whew that is a relief.

lakshmikanth · Post by **lakshmikanth** » 23 Feb 2010 04:02

With talks in mind, India takes softer view on beheading

After a JDAM attack would it read: After JDAM attack, India takes mild view not to impact the on-going talks

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 23 Feb 2010 06:14

amdavadi wrote:He is the only prime minister who has never won a lok sabha seat.There were other prime minister in the past who came from rajya sabha, but they did get elected on lok sabha seat once they became PM. MMS chose health reason not to contest LS seat.

This is very important because it conveys that one would follow the necessary trial by fire needed for every sword that is used in the arsenal. Sure enough, many swords that go through the trial by fire are of low quality and perhaps even blunt to the point to be called a sword. However, when sword has its mettle, it should not have any qualms about going through the trial by fire, just because many other instruments not worthy of be called a sword also goes through the same process.
Shunning of the process, doesn't do good for claiming that the quality of sword is going to be higher even if it did not go through the process.

kgoan · Post by **kgoan** » 23 Feb 2010 06:23

There is a solution to Pakistan that no one talks about.

And because no one talks about it, it remains so far outside GoI and everyones conceptual standards that to even mention it creates a level of takleef within Dillis, and everone elses, gupshup saloons that is astonishing.

The way to normalise this solution, so that it becomes a standard talking point is . . . to talk about it! A lot.

It was on BRF a decade ago where PakeesLand as Terror Central was first described - does anyone remember Calvins email discussion with that turd Cohen about Paki terror anymore? We didn't get anywhere then, but pakeeLand as terror cental is so standard now its barely worth talking about.

The solution is, of course, obvious. It's N^3's "Give Peace a Chance, Destroy Pakistan" meme.

But how, given pakee nukes? Simple: BR should begin discussing, on multiple threads in each of the three open forums, on how India should go about launching a thunderbolt from the blue.

A first strike that leaves a nuclear footprint against the face of the Pakjabi terror apparatus.

There need to be multiple threads. On the Mil Tech forum on technical issues here on the geopolitical issues, on the TEF on the economic issues etc. For a period of 2-3 years or as long as it takes for the Indian media to start discussion it openly.

Unless there are multiple interlinked threads that discuss this solution threadbare, it won't be taken seriously. It won't be taken seriously, at first anyway.

All these threads will be wrong for the first few threads, but as the exercise goes on over the months we will eventually arrive at possible doable scenarios, scenarios that others will be forced to consider because they won't know who else is reading those threads and what their reaction to such a scenario is.

That timeline seems like a long time. But those of us who've been on BR for 10 odd years shouldn't have a problem with that - there are multiple threads on BR that have gone on for multiple years.

But 2-3 years from now, if BRF sticks with it. . . ?

India may never launch a nuclear strike. But the open discussion of it alone . . .

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 23 Feb 2010 06:26

At least on humanitarian grounds, those guys should be considered for asylum etc.

Perhaps GoI is being careful not to set a precedence.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Feb 2010 06:36

CRamS wrote:Could it be that the upcoming love making between MMS and TSP under the tutelage of Unkil is more related at begging TSP a role for India in Afganisthan than anyhing to do with Kashmir? In other words, Unkil sees India as a useful idiot in Afganisthan as doing all the heavy lifting once Stanaley boy get 6 medals of honor, Patreius gets 8, Mullen gets 10; Holbrooke gets Nobel piss; after scaring a few rope trick Talibunnies and leaving. TSP is another useful idiot who provides "good terrorists" to make sure both Afghanis and Indian SDREs behave. But since India wants to be involved in Afganisthan, Unkil has said make love to TSP first and see if they will allow you. What an impending super power India under MMS has become.

OK That's one theory. But there is another one I have cooked up while you were watching. MMS is a risk taker of a sort - he actually risked the government for the nuclear deal. I am beginning to suspect there is a quid pro quo with America in which India talks but America is expected to deliver.

This theory (of mine) is only good as long as America actually delivers. If the US does not deliver MMS will have to lose sleep (or not lose sleep) as Pakis kill more Indians in terror attacks an behead more non pious people in the holy land of the Pubes (Lice Be Upon Them)

The scary part about talks with Pakistan is like your son telling you that he is going to visit a brothel and stay there for a week for academic reasons and will not actually be a customer there. Mani Shankar Aiyar's glee and triumphalism and gloating while referring to India's U turn on talks makes him look like a case of "substance abuse". Like the brothel visiting son you have to trust the GoI in this case. If you were never a supporter of the government how do you trust the government? They had better come out on top from these "talks"

Shalav · Post by **Shalav** » 23 Feb 2010 06:39

The GoI is terrified of being seen as communal. Be they formed by the left or the right. They would rather give in to communal pressure to as not be seen as victimising Indians who follow the Muslim faith. Thats the greatest victory of the jholawalla's, they have paralyzed govt. action based on perceived takleef.

Notice the GoI gave in to communal forces and will not renew the visa of Taslima Nasreen. What's female empowerment as weighed against the takleef of the jholawalas - right?

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 23 Feb 2010 06:39

Gagan wrote:At least on humanitarian grounds, those guys should be considered for asylum etc.

Perhaps GoI is being careful not to set a precedence.

Govt shld NOT give asylum because there are thousands of groups discriminated against in Pak. Can't set this precedent. Let US give asylum

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Feb 2010 06:42

kgoan wrote:There is a solution to Pakistan that no one talks about.

And because no one talks about it, it remains so far outside GoI and everyones conceptual standards that to even mention it creates a level of takleef within Dillis, and everone elses, gupshup saloons that is astonishing.

The way to normalise this solution, so that it becomes a standard talking point is . . . to talk about it! A lot.

It was on BRF a decade ago where PakeesLand as Terror Central was first described - does anyone remember Calvins email discussion with that turd Cohen about Paki terror anymore? We didn't get anywhere then, but pakeeLand as terror cental is so standard now its barely worth talking about.

The solution is, of course, obvious. It's N^3's "Give Peace a Chance, Destroy Pakistan" meme.

But how, given pakee nukes? Simple: BR should begin discussing, on multiple threads in each of the three open forums, on how India should go about launching a thunderbolt from the blue.

A first strike that leaves a nuclear footprint against the face of the Pakjabi terror apparatus.

There need to be multiple threads. On the Mil Tech forum on technical issues here on the geopolitical issues, on the TEF on the economic issues etc. For a period of 2-3 years or as long as it takes for the Indian media to start discussion it openly.

Unless there are multiple interlinked threads that discuss this solution threadbare, it won't be taken seriously. It won't be taken seriously, at first anyway.

All these threads will be wrong for the first few threads, but as the exercise goes on over the months we will eventually arrive at possible doable scenarios, scenarios that others will be forced to consider because they won't know who else is reading those threads and what their reaction to such a scenario is.

That timeline seems like a long time. But those of us who've been on BR for 10 odd years shouldn't have a problem with that - there are multiple threads on BR that have gone on for multiple years.

But 2-3 years from now, if BRF sticks with it. . . ?

India may never launch a nuclear strike. But the open discussion of it alone . . .

Good thinking kgoan.

Did you see this? Maybe this can serve as the first post to kick things off?

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 87#p767587

Malayappan · Post by **Malayappan** » 23 Feb 2010 06:51

^^^
Let us do it! But we might need something more direct to effect rather than a general 'Deterrence' thread?