From that piece
“She deserves a less demanding job after three excruciating years in Pakistan,” a diplomatic source told
“She deserves a less demanding job after three excruciating years in Pakistan,” a diplomatic source told
For this we need many BR like forums. More the better. There should be 50 such sites with atleast 100-200 millions debating on the internet - "internet Hindus". that should do the jobkgoan wrote:There is a solution to Pakistan that no one talks about.
The way to normalise this solution, so that it becomes a standard talking point is . . . to talk about it! A lot.
But how, given pakee nukes? Simple: BR should begin discussing, on multiple threads in each of the three open forums, on how India should go about <b><i>launching a thunderbolt from the blue</i></b>.
There need to be multiple threads. On the Mil Tech forum on technical issues here on the geopolitical issues, on the TEF on the economic issues etc. For a period of 2-3 years or as long as it takes for the <b><i>Indian media </i></b> to start discussion it openly.
Let's see kgoan. Let me see if I can cook up something and cross post my earlier article as a seed for more thoughts..kgoan wrote:shiv:
Yes. Well, someone else did and mentioned it. But this idea isn't mine. The geo-economic situation is starting to get funny again.
Timelines are being forced to be compressed by situations outside the usual boxes, what happens in Greece, will the German banks have cardiacs because of E. Europe, how will the Sino-US thing play out - which way will Obama jump once he feels his oats and *becomes* the POTUS rather than simply filling the *office* of the POTUS. (A curious American evolution observed in every POTUS, over the last few decades.)
Over the next couple of years as things come to a head, the solution of "yeah, well we can just kill all you Pakees you know, everyones talking about it" may have a significant utility.
Or so say some. And it is something *only* a place like BR can do. (Actually, its something that *noone* else can do openly. And it MUST be done openly.
There is a dilemma in this. If you think of saving lives nothing could be more noble than this. But if you are thinking in terms of shrinking the influence of sanity and withdrawing people from what was old India - then this action gives the Pakiban a walkover.Suppiah wrote:Like Israel does with Jews, India should have a permanent, no questions asked policy of granted immediate residency rights as well as citizenship to all minorities caught amidst the fanatic barbarian terrorist animals of Pakistan.
Yes, it does. But we don't want that territory unless it is completely cleared of barbaric animals, do we? We should forget 'old India' and happily write off that piece of land because it has gone away carrying scum that we dont need...Muslims that believed in humanity and living as friends with other religions stayed in India...a good bargain IMHO.. Notice I do not recommend this strategy for Bangladesh, because there is a critical mass there that can hold on and make a difference, there is no such chance with Pakbarian animalistan.shiv wrote:There is a dilemma in this. If you think of saving lives nothing could be more noble than this. But if you are thinking in terms of shrinking the influence of sanity and withdrawing people from what was old India - then this action gives the Pakiban a walkover.Suppiah wrote:Like Israel does with Jews, India should have a permanent, no questions asked policy of granted immediate residency rights as well as citizenship to all minorities caught amidst the fanatic barbarian terrorist animals of Pakistan.
Pakistan will not win, it will lose. Entire Islamic West Asia will lose because that will be 400% proof that these animals cannot live with kufr.Jarita wrote:^^^ Exactly. Pakistan will finally win when all minorities are out.
Besides, it is a dangerous precedent for us to set being a secular nation with a large muslim population. Tomorrow if the Shias come to India from Pakistan for asylum, will we turn them away? So we cannot set this precedent. What happened in 1947 happened. Unfortunately Hindus/Sikhs/Buddhists etc will have to apply for asylum across the world.
Tuesday, February 23, 2010
13 killed in Mingora suicide attack
41 injured as suicide bomber hits security forces’ convoy in Mingora * British woman who had recently embraced Islam also killed in blast, husband injured
MINGORA/PESHAWAR: Thirteen people, including three security personnel and four women, were killed and 41 others injured when a suicide bomber hit a security forces’ convoy in Mingora city on Monday, official sources said.
The attack in Swat’s capital city – shattering the calm in the restive district – occurred at the busy Nishat Chowk of Mingora town when a suicide bomber hit the security forces’ convoy, which was on its way to the Circuit House. ........................
Daily Times
For this issue, I just think saving lives of Hindus and Sikhs in TSP and nothing more than that. No strategy or vategy here. Otherwise the remaining one will just not survive. in just this case, India should should offer based on religion and nothing is non-secular of hindutva in it.shiv wrote:There is a dilemma in this. If you think of saving lives nothing could be more noble than this. But if you are thinking in terms of shrinking the influence of sanity and withdrawing people from what was old India - then this action gives the Pakiban a walkover.Suppiah wrote:Like Israel does with Jews, India should have a permanent, no questions asked policy of granted immediate residency rights as well as citizenship to all minorities caught amidst the fanatic barbarian terrorist animals of Pakistan.
ramana wrote:Already people are going thru contortions to disclaim earlier personas.
Mani Shankar Aiyer on TV was indicative of what I believe is the latest line of thought in GoI. I am guessing that to be as follows.Suppiah wrote:Yes, it does. But we don't want that territory unless it is completely cleared of barbaric animals, do we? We should forget 'old India' and happily write off that piece of land because it has gone away carrying scum that we dont need...Muslims that believed in humanity and living as friends with other religions stayed in India...a good bargain IMHO.. Notice I do not recommend this strategy for Bangladesh, because there is a critical mass there that can hold on and make a difference, there is no such chance with Pakbarian animalistan.shiv wrote: There is a dilemma in this. If you think of saving lives nothing could be more noble than this. But if you are thinking in terms of shrinking the influence of sanity and withdrawing people from what was old India - then this action gives the Pakiban a walkover.
The way I see it is as follows. There is an Indian constituency that says do not talk to Pakistan.shiv wrote: Brajesh Mishra: The only way out is to strengthen internal defences (Only internal defences? No war?) so much so that both these countries understand that pressure on India will no longer be able to work..
I suppose you mean "overly simplistic". Well, let's take a more detailed look at it then. The Taiwan Straits Crisis of 1995 http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~john ... /ross3.pdf was precipitated when the US gave a visa to Lee Teng-Hui, a Taiwanese President who was seeking to maximize Taiwan's wiggle room by proposing a "two-state solution" to the One China policy that most countries in the world recognized at that point. No formal diplomatic relations existed between the US and Taiwan at that point, and none exist today, in recognition of the One China policy by Washington. In this context, Lee's visit to the US was deemed unacceptable by China as they interpreted it as US approval of Lee's stance.amit wrote:I’m afraid this is an overtly simplistic assessment of China’s stand vis a vis Taiwan. China is very explicit on its claims on Taiwan and yet the Taiwanese armed forces have been armed by the US for decades and was definitely till recently far superior to the Chinese forces in terms of quality.Rudradev wrote:On this note one should consider Taiwan, the rival that has long been propped up by the West against the PRC. For decades, Taiwan's GDP and rate of growth towered over that of PRC, a differential that has never applied to Pakistan against India. The Taiwanese were also supplied by the West with the latest armaments, all directed against the PRC. Yet, the PRC never made compromises with respect to Taiwan, in order to catch up with Taiwan's GDP or develop economically in its own right. It stood up to the Western proxy, armed itself with enough capability to invade the island if necessary, and still continued with its own economic development in an unflagging manner.
Ironically, it is the overt economic sanctions threatened by a 4-trillion-dollar China today that have not been effective. The arms sales by the US to Taiwan is still on the cards as far as I know. There are good reasons for this.It’s only now that China has threatened overt economic sanctions against US entities which arm Taiwan. Before it’s typical reaction was a lot of bluster and military exercises and pointing more missiles against Taiwan etc. Nothing was directed against the US except for a lot of verbiage. Let’s not put Uncle Jiang on a pedestal for the sake of promoting one POV.
I'm afraid this is where you are wrong. On two counts.I’m sorry boss but either you did not understand my argument or you are twisting it.Today we say: $1.3 trillion GDP isn't enough for us to stand up to Pakistan (let alone the US). It isn't enough for us to consolidate our strategic, diplomatic and security interests even in our own near abroad. Instead we must do exactly as the US says, and pursue peace with Pakistan at any cost, at least until 2015 or whenever we have a $4-$5 trillion GDP (as China has now).
Let's say we do this (at the incalculable price of sacrificing our national interest even within the confines of our own neighbourhood). Let's say we continue along the path MMS is taking now and wait to develop a $4-$5 trillion GDP.
When we have it, what then? Will we look at China's $10 trillion GDP and say "well, $4 or $5 trillion doesn't really cut it in terms of global influence. Let's just make more compromises and count on losing another six or seven thousand Indian lives to terrorism every year until we hit the $10 trillion mark"?
This makes no sense to me at all. India is not a corporation, not a cash cow with shareholders to answer to. India is a nation, a nation of people whose interests must be secured for generations to come. For all their ruthless corporatism the Chinese have never lost sight of the difference.
I’m quite clear in my mind that we are at a level where we can swat the Pakistanis any time we want to provided the US and its friends don’t prop them up. However, the whole premise of my argument is how we can realistically build influence within the US so that it makes sense for pressure groups on Capitol Hill to drive a change in the US govt policy.
And ultimately the levers of US power is best manipulated via US business interests. In order to get them sufficiently interested we need a bigger economy so that the prize of economic cooperation with India is bigger and is worth letting the Pakis go.
This just shows how much of a "partner" the US actually considers India. We take orders, but let alone being consulted on US strategic and diplomatic decisions, the Americans don't even bother to inform us about them!K_Subrahmanyam wrote: There are underlying worries over whether in exchange for cooperation in fighting the Afghan Taliban and the other terrorist groups Pakistan would have obtained U.S. and NATO promises to get their mediatory intervention on the Kashmir issue. Further concerns are, relying on the U.S. gratitude for action against some of the jehadi groups whether Pakistan may carry out more terroristic attacks on India and hope for the U.S. and NATO putting pressure on India not to retaliate. The Indian fears have very valid bases and the Indian agencies have to assess the consequences arising from the latest developments for India carefully and initiate steps for optimum preparedness to meet such contingent threats.
Exactly right. And that is the problem today. We have a $1.3 trillion dollar economy, which is in fact the world's fourth largest in GDP-PPP terms. But we cannot stand up to a Pakistan which has a negligible economy. Thanks entirely to the pathetic excuse for "leadership" residing in New Delhi.Now will it pan out after we hit US$4-US$5 trillion? I think it’s obvious that that’s not an immediate given. It will ultimately depend on the political leadership and whether they have the political acumen and skill to use this new found economic clout to India’s advantage. If we don’t have the right leadership even the world’s third or fourth largest economy would not help.
Sorry, this is simply inaccurate.The other point is at present even assuming we had a “braveheart” Nationalist government in power today, we/they wouldn’t have the wherewithal to sufficiently sway US interest groups.
This is not the same as my point about the ongoing nature of such projects. The bomb project had been *finished* (was not "ongoing") by the time PVNR came to power. Yet PVNR did not test it. All said and done I don't blame him for this, given the dire economic straits we were in during the early part of his regime.I’m sure you’re referring to Operation Parakram here as apart from that mobilization I don’t recall any other coercive actions from the NDA govt apart from heavy rhetoric. (Please note here that while the NDA govt pulled the nuclear trigger and deserve compliments for that, the ground work was done by the PVNR govt. This is the same as your point later about the ongoing nature of such projects. The NDA govt did not pull Pokharan out of its hat).Previous governments have exercised coercive diplomacy against Pakistan (and the US) without ending up in a confrontation, yet leading to very tangible national security benefits.
Boss, please tell me which country in the world today has managed to effect a "permanent solution" against the external sources of its international political problems?You have highlighted the benefits which Parakram brought. And I personally think it was a good move on the part of the NDA govt.
But I’m sure you’d agree that even that didn’t prove to be a permanent solution. We may have got Musharraff browning his pants but despite that there were the Delhi and Ayodhya blasts after that, not to speak of Mumbai.
I don't think we should be pursuing coercive diplomacy against Pakistan alone (it is true, they have so little to lose that coercive diplomacy has its limits with them).So long term I don’t see how coercive diplomacy would/will work with the Pakis as long as we can’t wean away the Amercians.
Cognitive dissonance perhaps prohibits you from seeing this; but in fact, that is exactly what happened during Parakram. We threatened to play the spoiler in Afghanistan; the US backed off from its traditional nodding and winking at Paki terrorism, and made the Pakis do a 180 on infiltration into Kashmir.Undoubtedly it’s basic baniya logic. But it’s also baniya logic that you need to get to the capability to be able to do that. How do you propose that India does that? By playing a spoiler with Iran and in Afghanistan? Do you think the US would be so scared of that they will back off from Pakistan? If wishes were horses…It is to squeeze the US so that they guarantee our interests, economic and political and military, in exchange for our avoiding a confrontation.
Given that the MMS regime has decided to pursue its policy of pandering to Pakistan and the US despite the cost in Indian lives, I don't know what constitutes a "better option".I agree with you on this but the point is we really don’t know yet whether the holding operation has failed or not. I don’t know how it was done or whether it is just good fortune but the fact remains that after 26/11 it was the first time since terror strikes started in India outside of J&K we’ve had more than a year without any incidents before the Pune blast.If the MMS government can guarantee the safety of the Indian people by internal security means alone, and without yielding any concessions to the Pakistanis, well and good. If it cannot guarantee the security of the Indian people while maintaining its "holding operation" then the "holding operation" has failed and must be replaced by a strategy that imposes retaliatory costs on those endangering the Indian people... no two ways about it.
I agree with you the IPL and Commonwealth Games are prime targets as would be the Hockey World Cup and the remaining two One-Dayers with South Africa. Now there’s two options before India. One is the easy way out. Take IPL overseas and cancel all the other events. Or tighten security as much as possible and hope for the best. Now tell me what is the better option?
The lease of the INS Chakra, an event to which I specifically referred, was during the NDA government. You are right that we had established the intent to develop an ATV even before that.I’m sorry but your facts are bit mixed up here. The ATV programme started much before the NDA govt. However, procurement of big ticket defence items is not the issue. It’s the willingness to test missiles and develop new ones. You know if the govt really wanted to go slow on defence it could have deferred the anti ballistic missile tests, the Agni 3, Shourya and a host of other projects which all seem to be moving towards culmination.This is why it can take years for anything to happen. The nuclear submarine ATV program was begun by the NDA government in leasing INS Chakra from the Russians but has only borne fruit today. Missile research, LCA development, Arjun development all proceed at their own pace no matter who happens to be the government of the day. If any of these programs meet their milestones during a particular government's tenure, it does not necessarily mean that the government of the day should get any credit for it.
Of course, the government *can* if it wants, change things. The PM (along with his MOD and COAS) can take personal interest in accelerating defense acquisitons and if he does, it will have a dramatic effect. The MRCA could be decided on and purchased within weeks if MMS decided to move on it.
Yes, I've seen press reports, and I'm quite aware of who controls the overwhelming majority of English language media in India.And I’m sure you’ve seen press reports that state that there’s a move to speed up the MRCA acquisition. Also there’s a massive move to ramp up security in the North East. Now surely you’re point is not that the UPA govt which is a cat in the west becomes a tiger in the east?
Sorry boss, this is just too funny.I agree with you on this. And it is the singular responsibility of the non-Congress parties that they have kept the ghost of Bofors alive all these years by not getting to the bottom of the so called Rs64 crores kickbacks and the net result has been a badly crippled the Army which hasn’t been able to induct much needed artillery for more than two decades. Was it too difficult to bring the perpetrators of this kickback to book in the years that VP Singh and others were in power or more later when the NDA govt was in power for six years? Neither was that done, nor did the non Congress govts have the nerve to go out and buy new guns. Isn't just picking up the UPA govt on this a case of selective blame fixing?Since the 1960s, the only GOI that has actively prioritized jumpstarting the military acquisitions process has been the Rajiv Gandhi government. Of course they were sloppy about kickbacks and such, and lost re-election largely on account of the Bofors scandal.
What the US is conveying is that Pakistan has done all it can do in the investigation on 26/11 and nothing more should be expected from them and that it was time for India to resume the composite dialogue."As you know, a great deal of progress was made between 2004 and 2007."I think we and the Indians and the Pakistanis themselves hope that that progress can be reestablished," Blake {Assistant Secretary of State for South and Central Asia Robert Blake} said.
In addition to what the NYT reporters say about questions being raised about the start of an American withdrawal in July 2011, Centcom chief Gen Petraeus has clearly said in NBC TV’s Meet the Press programme, also on Sunday, that the Marja operation is only “the ‘initial salvo’ in a military campaign that could last 12 to 18 months”.
Eighteen months from now, gentlemen, takes us to August 2011. If the ‘military campaign’ ends in August, by when will the Americans withdraw please, after they have handed over to the non-existent Afghan army? And since when have deadlines such as these which have to do with operations, ever been met in military history? So no strategic depth very soon either, sirs, so stand easy use hanky.
...
And now for Mullah Brother! Where the blazes was this man just three weeks ago? We were told soon after his arrest that the ISI took action when the Americans gave it ‘accurate’ information. As a Pakistani who has seen the shenanigans of the ISI for well on 40 years, what I should like to ask is why the omnipotent Mother of All Agencies did not know where the ‘director-general military operations’ of the Afghan Taliban was, by its self? Why did (unwelcome, remember?) foreigners have to give this ‘premier’ agency information on the mullah which led to his arrest?
As an aside, a request to their lordships of the Supreme Court who have just recently humbled an elected government all ends up. The ISPR has announced that whilst promotions of generals are to be ratified by the government, it is the army chief’s very own prerogative to give extensions to whichever general he wills. Suo motu notice, my lords? For, after all, all the organs of state are to remain within their own constitutional limits.
Mushism of the week: “You should come to Pakistan — it’s the most happening place in the world, where there’s never a dull moment” – Gen Pervez Musharraf, London, Feb 15, 2010. The man ought to be ashamed of himself to refer to our unfortunate country in the way that he did, where tens of people die violently every single day at the hands of the demons let loose by himself and others of his ilk. Happening place indeed. Why doesn’t he himself come back?
Again, TIFWIW.Obama stranded in Marjah.US troops caught in a Taliban trap. Obama in Afghanistan----nothing to learn, nothing to forget.
When USSR failed to prevail in Afghanistan in 1988, India faced the jihadis diverted from the Afghan front. We are still confronting them.
If US fails to prevail, a new breed of battle hardened jihadis of post 9/11 vintage will be on us. We must plan to stop them in Pakistan.
We can't afford to do nothing till they enter our territory. They must be neutralised in Pak territory..
Time to start thinking, strategising & acting now. We can't stop them without covert action
Tragedy that not only politicos, but even strategic thinkers like K.Subramanian don't understand the life-saving importance of covert action
Nation-saving, life-saving covert capability here & now is the need of the hour. We have become a nation of breast-beaters
Breast-beating, not action has become our derfining characteristic.
Oh. . Shri Raman is wrong. We are talking to Pakistan asking them to neutralize these dark & evil forces in Pakistani territory itself. The US will guarantee that to us. All we need to do is to keep quiet before, during and after we talk, watching the fun unfold.Hari Seldon wrote:B Raman garu on twitter. TIFWIW
http://twitter.com/ramanthink
Breast-beating, not action has become our derfining characteristic.
Ok, let's rephrase that. The Times of India, a publication believed to be willing to sell column space to the highest bidder, launched Aman ki Asha.amit wrote:TOI's Aman ki Asha tamasha is one of the most idiotic campaigns I've seen and the articles printed there seems straight out a kind of WKKs in Wonderland bringing the latest news to your living room kind of idioticy.When the GOI responded to this dismal state of affairs by launching "Aman ki Asha", and then making this offer of talks... I think that sent a lot of optimistic fence-sitters over the edge into complete loss of faith in the government. The continuation of this travesty after Pune has not helped.
However, saying GOI launched Aman ki Asha without any proof is unfortunately akin to floating a Strawman. And very soon this will become a part of popular BRF folklore and people will keep on repeating it.
Yes, we must have learned it from the Congress government and other, ahem, Non State Actors.And we all know that something repeated sufficiently enough becomes the truth. A good psy-ops tool I must say.
In another blow to the Taliban senior leadership, Pakistani authorities have captured Mullah Abdul Kabir, a member of the group’s inner circle and a leading military commander against American forces in eastern Afghanistan, according to a Pakistani intelligence official.
Hari Seldon wrote:B Raman garu on twitter. TIFWIW
http://twitter.com/ramanthink
.Obama stranded in Marjah.US troops caught in a Taliban trap. Obama in Afghanistan----nothing to learn, nothing to forget.
When USSR failed to prevail in Afghanistan in 1988, India faced the jihadis diverted from the Afghan front. We are still confronting them.
If US fails to prevail, a new breed of battle hardened jihadis of post 9/11 vintage will be on us. We must plan to stop them in Pakistan.
We can't afford to do nothing till they enter our territory. They must be neutralised in Pak territory..
Time to start thinking, strategising & acting now. We can't stop them without covert action
Tragedy that not only politicos, but even strategic thinkers like K.Subramanian don't understand the life-saving importance of covert action
Nation-saving, life-saving covert capability here & now is the need of the hour. We have become a nation of breast-beaters
Breast-beating, not action has become our derfining characteristic.
Observing that India is “shocked” by the idea of international community talking to the Taliban, a noted Pakistani scholar has said that New Delhi has been virtually pushed into talks with Islamabad.
“I think the Indians have been pushed into talks. They’ve been quite shocked by this idea that the international community is now ready for some kind of dialogue with the Taliban, and obviously they want to find out from Pakistan what they want to do,” Ahmed Rashid, author of Descent into Chaos said at the prestigious Council on Foreign Relations.
I think one reason is that, obviously, there’s been a lot of pressure from the Americans and from the international community, and even from within India. But I think the Indians were very shocked by the London conference on Afghanistan a few weeks ago in which the entire international community decided that it would be a good thing to start this reintegration with the Taliban,” Mr. Rashid said.
“The idea of talking to the Taliban is anathema to India, because it would simply mean for India that, you know, Pakistan would get a huge say in a future Afghanistan. And don’t forget, India spent 10 years in the ‘90s having no presence in Afghanistan, because Pakistan ran the Taliban and the Taliban regime did not allow the Indians in at all,” he said in response to a question.
Replace the t with c and you know what BR is talking about..csharma wrote:What is the trap in Marjah that B Raman is referring to? I am not aware of any large US casualties though they may be bogged down.
If US can't prevail in Afghanistan, it's claim to superpowerdom would ring hollow.
Suppiah wrote: But when all this let us keep talking charade reaches point of absurdity - when serious folks, not MSI types, talk about border free South Asia and nonsense of that sort, that's when it is time to call a halt. Not until then..that's so far off..
That is not true...India WAS there, only backing NA forces basing itself in Tajikistan and actively working with Iran and others to go against Taliban. 9/11 happened or we would have known if that strategy worked or not - we can always go back to that, this time with some extra anti-Taliban Pashtuns thrown into the soup...sanjaykumar wrote:And don’t forget, India spent 10 years in the ‘90s having no presence in Afghanistan, because Pakistan ran the Taliban and the Taliban regime did not allow the Indians in at all,” he said in response to a question.
Questions will need to be asked, or else Pakistan will use it as a means of infiltration. Apart from such caveats, yes.Suppiah wrote:Like Israel does with Jews, India should have a permanent, no questions asked policy of granted immediate residency rights as well as citizenship to all minorities caught amidst the fanatic barbarian terrorist animals of Pakistan.
Just to clarify..what I mean is each individual need not prove harassment, simply being a minority in Pakbarian animalistan is enough proof of being harassed, threatened with forced conversion or murder etc. Obviously they need to prove that they are indeed minority..A_Gupta wrote: Questions will need to be asked, or else Pakistan will use it as a means of infiltration. Apart from such caveats, yes.