Su-30: News and Discussion

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 Feb 2010 16:32

in fact 023 will be from the first or second batch of the mki.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 24 Feb 2010 17:04

Rahul M wrote:in fact 023 will be from the first or second batch of the mki.

Enough bhailog

Bacche ki jaan loge kya?

anand_sankar · Post by **anand_sankar** » 24 Feb 2010 17:47

Brake chute wear... first chute (top) visible fraying in centre-right corner.

That apart... The point I am trying to make is trying to figure out the accumulated flight hours of SB 023. We all know SB 001-18 were plain-jane flankers, from SB 019, MKI begins. So SB 023 must have done quite some air miles by now and must be one of the first for overhaul. I am sounding out my sources on this one, the initial batch of the MKI fleet (even if Russian made) must be due to go to HAL Nashik for refurbishment. Those initial MKI's like the Su-30K's must have been put through a lot simply for training.

The quality of the paint job... well I have no clue how to judge that, but why would you repaint an aircraft if it is due to go to the maker soon?

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 24 Feb 2010 19:04

Vayu Shakti from LiveFist
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 707487.JPG

SB140

I'm eager to see SB200 some day! Jingo dream....

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 24 Feb 2010 19:33

Singha wrote:but the "business end" of those ugly 120mm cannons sure left a swathe of mayhem.

sir, iirc that part of the plane is deliberately left unpainted since the guns firing will lead to loss of paint anyway. seem to remember reading somewhere.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Feb 2010 20:53

true . but I was referring to abrams tanks.

a MKI with a rheinmetall 120mm in semi-auto mode would be purely orgasmic

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Feb 2010 21:17

andy B wrote: I dunno what really is wrong with the chutes sure they look a little muggy and dirty but then again one would look like that if they had to hold back a 30 tonne stallion and then get cramped into an area that is tens of times smaller than their orignal size when deployed...again this a observation onlee.

Frankly those chutes do not look frayed at all to me. I would like to be shown what it is about those photographs that reveals frayed chutes just for my own education. There is nothing frayed about them. If I am mistaken I will learn something. No. That is what we are all here for noobie or oldbie.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Feb 2010 22:56

Those chutes are good - hand washed perhaps - but good. The "muck" is just due to shading and not dirt.

On SB 023 we should expect paint peeling, etc!!!!! They do get beat up. Better condition than the Ks we sent back.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 25 Feb 2010 04:02

Anurag wrote:Vayu Shakti from LiveFist
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 707487.JPG

SB140

I'm eager to see SB200 some day! Jingo dream....

Where is the second pilot?

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 25 Feb 2010 04:22

He's got his head against the back of the seat.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Feb 2010 06:08

Aditya G wrote:
Anurag wrote:Vayu Shakti from LiveFist
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 707487.JPG

SB140

I'm eager to see SB200 some day! Jingo dream....
Where is the second pilot?

He is there alright, but need not be there.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 25 Feb 2010 06:35

rakall wrote:
Singha wrote:yeah, only china has beautifully painted and non-muddy gear. I have seen pix of the 3rd ID on the march to baghdad and man some of those humvees, trucks and tanks sure looked on the verge of falling apart. there would be a point where frayed chutes get replaced, being dropped
on the runway daily is not good for spit and polish.

but the "business end" of those ugly 120mm cannons sure left a swathe of mayhem.

Just pain the Su30MKI's after every flight.. keep the jingos "sexy and brand new paint" happy !!!!

Bloody hell -- the bortnumber 023 means it is Russian make... We cant even blame HAL for that crappy paint job !!!

hahaha..Rakall that was exactly my thought ! I first thought- oh God, HAL built hoga toh mar gaye..there will be host of comments on how HAL paint isn't good, quality of workmanship isn't good, etc..turned out to be SB023..Russian built.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 25 Feb 2010 06:39

tsriram wrote: sir, iirc that part of the plane is deliberately left unpainted since the guns firing will lead to loss of paint anyway. seem to remember reading somewhere.

its actually due to the heat that is a result of the gun-gases. paint will peel off for sure. They use copper grease as well to the gun port to protect it from the heat of the gun-gases and thats what causes the copper-coloured look near the gun port.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 25 Feb 2010 06:44

Kartik wrote:
tsriram wrote: sir, iirc that part of the plane is deliberately left unpainted since the guns firing will lead to loss of paint anyway. seem to remember reading somewhere.
its actually due to the heat that is a result of the gun-gases. paint will peel off for sure. They use copper grease as well to the gun port to protect it from the heat of the gun-gases and thats what causes the copper-coloured look near the gun port.

Fellas, quick question (hope it ain't stupid) but does peeling of the paint affect Rambha's RCS signature?? I can understand it would affect IF it were painted with RAM coatings, but to my untrained eyes, it looks like 23 wasn't applied RAM coatings... please elaborate!

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 25 Feb 2010 09:44

Anurag wrote:He's got his head against the back of the seat.

and he is shy.. he is looking away from the camera !!

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 25 Feb 2010 11:02

shiv wrote:Frankly those chutes do not look frayed at all to me. I would like to be shown what it is about those photographs that reveals frayed chutes just for my own education. There is nothing frayed about them. If I am mistaken I will learn something. No. That is what we are all here for noobie or oldbie.

what is the tattered material in the space between the 2 chutes?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Feb 2010 16:54

AdityaM wrote:
shiv wrote:Frankly those chutes do not look frayed at all to me. I would like to be shown what it is about those photographs that reveals frayed chutes just for my own education. There is nothing frayed about them. If I am mistaken I will learn something. No. That is what we are all here for noobie or oldbie.
what is the tattered material in the space between the 2 chutes?

That "tattered material" is the primary chute that pops out first - billows in the gale that is blowing when the plane needs to slow down and that primary chute pulls out the folded secondary chutes that then billow and actually slow the plane down.

After the secondary chutes are deployed and the plane slows to almost a standstill there may not be enough wind reaching the primary chute to keep it billowed giving a tattered appearance. Another thing is that in aircraft such as the LCA the cap over the tip of the tail chute housing is in turn attached to the top of the primary chute and you will find that cap and primary chute spinning and twisting around looking like a misshapen chute.

Will post some video links later

Watch the primary chute deploy at 2min34 sec. Watch what it does after that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRY1aWw4lgY

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Feb 2010 20:26

AdityaM wrote: what is the tattered material in the space between the 2 chutes?

Drogue parachute

...................

Drogue parachutes are sometimes used to deploy a main or reserve parachute by using the drag generated by the drogue to pull the main parachute out of its container. .....................................

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 26 Feb 2010 14:18

cross posting

This was speculated by BR jingo's from long time
Latest Vayu has a report on a new AAM-L,being jointly developed by India and Russia,named "K-100-1"with NPO Novator proposed partner DRDO,this is a new variant of R-172,and range between 250-400km,this missile is a Awacs Killer.

bye bye Erieye

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 26 Feb 2010 14:37

Well i was at the chandan firing range ( close to pokhran) to watch the demo and the 2 heat seeking missiles missed the intended target ( which was a hot source on a parachute) fired from Su 30 i guess... bye bye not so quick IMHO !!

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 26 Feb 2010 16:08

If I recollect the last FPD I watched in mid 90s, MiG-23 (now retired) launched flares (the heat source on parachute) while fighters fired missiles on the flares after allowing the MiGs to zoom away.

The older generation IR missiles would invariably hit the flares while the newer ones, designed to ignore flares, would miss.

I guess a Chukar/Lakshya might have yielded better results.

BTW, I had seen the R-73 flip 180 after launch from a Sukhoi. Amazing. The Aussies could do so only now.

negi · Post by **negi** » 26 Feb 2010 16:18

BTW, I had seen the R-73 flip 180 after launch from a Sukhoi. Amazing. The Aussies could do so only now.

Yes me too I guess it was some vayu shakti or similar exercise and it was shown live on DD-National (back late 90's). I guess the Sukhoi (most probably K) first released some flares and then fired the Archer the missile did a 180 deg and hit one of the flares.

That exercise also showed

1. Mig-21's pounding a ground target with S-5 rockets. (they missed it on the first pass

)
2. Jags taking out a small target via LGBs (was it a MATRA ? ).
3. Mi-24 Hind taking out a rickety jeep/ground target .
4. A group of iirc '4' Mig-27s executing a carpet bombing of an airstrip .

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Feb 2010 16:32

R-73 flip was by su-30K (not mki) @ vayushakti -99. first one missed, second one hit. the commentator said it was the first missile firing by the su's.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 26 Feb 2010 18:44

The R-73 flipping should no longer be a novelty or is it still one? I would think that most top notch short range missiles should have mastered this trick by now. With an off-bore capability approaching or exceeding 90 degrees and a robust HMS slaving capability they all should have it.

Am I missing something?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 26 Feb 2010 18:47

back in 99 with internet in its infancy (to be read as no youtube) it was a novelty.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 26 Feb 2010 19:20

Rahul M wrote:back in 99 with internet in its infancy (to be read as no youtube) it was a novelty.

Nevertheless the missile firing clip was recorded by me and is on BR. Albeit low quality.

The url
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/CLIPS/
The clip
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/CLIPS/vs-sukhois.mpg

In those days it used to take 30 minutes to render 1 minute of video using a Pentium 100 MHz with 4 MB RAM

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Mar 2010 19:11

India set to buy 42 more Russian Su-30 fighter jets

The new air-superiority fighters will come on top of the 230 already contracted from Russia in three deals worth a total of $8.5 billion.

"The [new] order is being placed due to the insufficient number of fighter squadrons in the Indian Air Force and would allow us to eliminate potential threats," a source in the Indian Defense Ministry told RIA Novosti.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 02 Mar 2010 19:25

Austin wrote:India set to buy 42 more Russian Su-30 fighter jets

The new air-superiority fighters will come on top of the 230 already contracted from Russia in three deals worth a total of $8.5 billion.

"The [new] order is being placed due to the insufficient number of fighter squadrons in the Indian Air Force and would allow us to eliminate potential threats," a source in the Indian Defense Ministry told RIA Novosti.

For 3 billion $ for 42 --> 71 million $ per plane

. That is no way cheap ... although better then Mirage upgrade. May be Russian want to charge us as per MRCA price

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 02 Mar 2010 19:32

Austin wrote:India set to buy 42 more Russian Su-30 fighter jets

"The [new] order is being placed due to the insufficient number of fighter squadrons in the Indian Air Force and would allow us to eliminate potential threats," a source in the Indian Defense Ministry told RIA Novosti.

I hope they would come with latest avionics and IRST...something like Su-35 with canards....would be new Su-30MKIs.
I hope.

HarishV · Post by **HarishV** » 02 Mar 2010 19:35

The new air-superiority fighters will come on top of the 230 already contracted from Russia in three deals worth a total of $8.5 billion.

"The [new] order is being placed due to the insufficient number of fighter squadrons in the Indian Air Force and would allow us to eliminate potential threats," a source in the Indian Defense Ministry told RIA Novosti.

US$3 billion for 40 more aircraft - that works out to almost 75 million$ a pop.
Is this adjusted for inflation or is there more than just aircraft being sold here. We already have most of the maintenance infrastructure in place.

Also is this lack of foresight on part of the IAF given the fact that the Su-30's weren't exactly filling the boots of any other aircraft, and they should have ordered more than 300 Rambhas in the first placE?

sourab_c · Post by **sourab_c** » 02 Mar 2010 19:40

HarishV wrote:
Also is this lack of foresight on part of the IAF given the fact that the Su-30's weren't exactly filling the boots of any other aircraft, and they should have ordered more than 300 Rambhas in the first placE?

Well, ordering more earlier would not have made any difference considering the slow production rate of these planes. We could've ordered a 1000 earlier but we'd still have a 100 in our arsenal till now.

neeraj · Post by **neeraj** » 02 Mar 2010 19:44

RKumar wrote:
Austin wrote:India set to buy 42 more Russian Su-30 fighter jets
For 3 billion $ for 42 --> 71 million $ per plane . That is no way cheap ... although better then Mirage upgrade. May be Russian want to charge us as per MRCA price

This price should be the total cost which should include armament and spares.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Mar 2010 19:58

The new deal - 42 for $3 billion - should be a newer version as compared to the earlier planes from the 90s (my guess).

However, 272 MKIs for $11.5 Billion - since the 90s - is another way to look at it. That is what 42 mil/MKI?

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 02 Mar 2010 20:09

neeraj wrote:This price should be the total cost which should include armament and spares.

This is like a follow on order. So what we bought last time, will also be bougth this time also. I read somewhere, orgional price was 42 million a plane and now it is 72, which is too much for me.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 02 Mar 2010 20:32

NRao wrote:However, 272 MKIs for $11.5 Billion - since the 90s - is another way to look at it. That is what 42 mil/MKI?

We can distort the facts to hide behind it and satisfy ourself.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Mar 2010 20:56

RKumar wrote:
NRao wrote:However, 272 MKIs for $11.5 Billion - since the 90s - is another way to look at it. That is what 42 mil/MKI?
We can distort the facts to hide behind it and satisfy ourself.

Sure, that is one route.

the other is to face those very facts. One of them is when the MKI was first envisioned nobody - even a lot at Sukhoi - gave it a chance. So, then, India flew under the radar and picked up a great plane for pennies. Recall that India then did not have funds and was actually doing a favor to a Russian PM/Prez.

Today the same MKI is a better plane than it was then + everyone knows India can pay more + India is willing to pay more + Russian politics has changed.

So, it is a combination of things.

Out of curiosity did you expect to pay what India paid for an MKI in the early 2000 or so?

Added l8r:

I would expect inflation, currency rates, etc to weigh in into the matter.

HarishV · Post by **HarishV** » 02 Mar 2010 21:19

Well, ordering more earlier would not have made any difference considering the slow production rate of these planes. We could've ordered a 1000 earlier but we'd still have a 100 in our arsenal till now.

You may want to tone it down - Rakshak's don't like this to be called "slow" - just that the pace keeps up with the size of the order in question

But on a more serious note, why are we just ordering 2 more squadrons worth of MKI's only at this point? Especially knowing the obvious delays in delivery of the LCA and the delay in conclusion of MMRCA contract. Considering even at US$75 million they are still cheaper than some of the MMRCA aircraft. We still won't make bare-bones squadron strength with just 40+ more MKIs.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 02 Mar 2010 21:38

NRao wrote:
Sure, that is one route.

the other is to face those very facts. One of them is when the MKI was first envisioned nobody - even a lot at Sukhoi - gave it a chance. So, then, India flew under the radar and picked up a great plane for pennies. Recall that India then did not have funds and was actually doing a favor to a Russian PM/Prez.

Today the same MKI is a better plane than it was then + everyone knows India can pay more + India is willing to pay more + Russian politics has changed.
So, it is a combination of things.
Out of curiosity did you expect to pay what India paid for an MKI in the early 2000 or so?
Added l8r:
I would expect inflation, currency rates, etc to weigh in into the matter.

You are right that we took the risk and that paid very well. Regarding inflation/currency rates/politics etc, that always play who is in need. That way we can justify T-90 ToT delays, Air carriers cost escalation etc.

Regarding my expection, increase of 20-25% is ok but 70% no way. But a wise man will pick a hint form this, I fear we might get 5th gen plane for 100 million initially, but not at later stage when system is stable and mature because same argument will be valid then. So better India put some serious money for local R&D and have fall back option if deal/relation turn sour.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Mar 2010 22:04

Ah. I c.

The 20-25% is for increase in inflation, cost of parts, etc. The remaining 30-35% is because India has become a rich country (in def matters ONLY), Indian companies did not produce, IAF wants to build out NOW, etc.

On PAK-FA we will have to wait and see which way the wind blows. There is the MCA (or the NGFA? or the AMCA?) - from published reports the IAF wants HAL/ADA to be independent of others in all respects.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 02 Mar 2010 22:15

NRao wrote:Ah. I c.

The 20-25% is for increase in inflation, cost of parts, etc. The remaining 30-35% is because India has become a rich country (in def matters ONLY), Indian companies did not produce, IAF wants to build out NOW, etc.

On PAK-FA we will have to wait and see which way the wind blows. There is the MCA (or the NGFA? or the AMCA?) - from published reports the IAF wants HAL/ADA to be independent of others in all respects.

You can say inflation, spares (must have with initial orders

), good deal, cost for new developments, fixes etc. Rest 50-45% is arm twisting, rich country etc.