C-17s for the IAF?

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GeorgeWelch
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Brando wrote:Why haven't they built a rail line to Ladhak even after 60 years ?

Hoping to buy special aircraft to lift one tank at a time is not only very expensive but also very inefficient and would not solve the underlying logistical problem at all since all the PLAAF would need to do is bomb the airfields and ALGs.
Airfields are actually very hard to put out of commission

Railways on the other hand are very vulnerable to both conventional and terrorist/guerrilla attacks.

But the heart of your question is 'Why have air transport at all?'

If you believe you can ship the biggest items you will need via land, why can't you ship smaller items by land too?
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by NRao »

Brando wrote:Why haven't they built a rail line to Ladhak even after 60 years ?

Hoping to buy special aircraft to lift one tank at a time is not only very expensive but also very inefficient and would not solve the underlying logistical problem at all since all the PLAAF would need to do is bomb the airfields and ALGs.

If a railway line could be built for less than the cost of 10 C17s or 3 billion USD (which is very much possible) than it is a much better utilization of that tax payer money than some fancy airplanes! (not to mention all the domestic jobs it would create ! )

I would venture to guess that such purchases are more than just armed forces needs. Like many others.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Craig Alpert »

Shalav wrote: The IAF has to transport troops across the Indian landmass, the IL-76s or cheaper alternatives are good enough. We don't need to pay Rs. 18000 crores for shiny expensive toys in order for them to be competent enough.
When Indian troops are in battle, and a decision is made by a BALLZY cheif commander to give a befetting reply DEEP INSIDE enemy terriortiy, how do you plan on doing this?? IF you don't have air transport, capable of going "half way across the world" how would you send your troops to parts of Afghanistan, Northen most cities in China??

As far as the IOR is concerned, A&N islands, fine IN has made better use of indegenization, but do you believe that they will develop a transport aircraft similar to C-17 OVERNIGHT??? what would you do if you need to defend the territory from terrorissts overnight?? forget A&N, recently Maldives and Sychelles are where major Indian ports are being developed.. Their President, asked India's help to stop their young citizens from being brainwashed from Islamic Jihad. If Indian troops need to go there to avert major catastrophe, how do you suppose they go there?? Fly AI??? or hop on VikramAditya and Arihant, and get their 20 days later??? LOGISTICS my friend needs to be WELL PLANNED!!! Defensive thinking is so PASSE!!! think OFFENSIVE... Having something capable of lifting, troops/carriers with the payload, range of C-17 is something the IAF required YESTERDAY!!!!
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Shalav »

All that capability means nothing if the C17s are sanctioned and we can't use them!

There is little chance of Russian equipment being sanctioned, while there is a great chance of US equipment being sanctioned.

I would rather have a supplier who at-least makes the effort to get me the spare parts, rather than the supplier who raises his hands and says "sorry boss, my gormint will not allow me to send you spare parts". It has happened with Indian Sea Kings and Sea Harriers before. There is no guarantee it won't happen again.

Indian troops can be carried on the IL76 as they can on the C17s, as they can be to Afghanistan or Tibet or the Andamans.

I am not getting an answer to "why paying more for sanction prone equipment is better than paying for less for sanction proof equipment".

The question is can you use the capability if they are sanctioned? There are no guarantees from the US that they will never be sanctioned. If there is such a guarantee I would not object. But if there is a chance of sanctions as is presently the condition, why pay Rs. 18,000 crores - pay less and also be sure of equipment availability when needed.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Craig Alpert »

Shalav wrote:All that capability means nothing if the C17s are sanctioned and we can't use them!

There is little chance of Russian equipment being sanctioned, while there is a great chance of US equipment being sanctioned.

I would rather have a supplier who at-least makes the effort to get me the spare parts, rather than the supplier who raises his hands and says "sorry boss, my gormint will not allow me to send you spare parts". It has happened with Indian Sea Kings and Sea Harriers before. There is no guarantee it won't happen again.

Indian troops can be carried on the IL76 as they can on the C17s, as they can be to Afghanistan or Tibet or the Andamans.

I am not getting an answer to "why paying more for sanction prone equipment is better than paying for less for sanction proof equipment".

The question is can you use the capability if they are sanctioned? There are no guarantees from the US that they will never be sanctioned. If there is such a guarantee I would not object. But if there is a chance of sanctions as is presently the condition, why pay Rs. 18,000 crores - pay less and also be sure of equipment availability when needed.
You simply don't understand the meaning of SANCTIONS and LACK OF SPARES do you???
One one hand you Consistently keep claiming that Russians have not Sanctioned anything in the past, GREAT, how about ARM TWISTING with PRICING and SUPPLY OF SPARES... what good is it to buy an aircraft when you can't fc-uking FLY IT due ot LACK of spares!!! The US govt. was Sacntioned, NOT that it LACKED spares, the Russian's WITHOUT being sanctioned WERE UNABLE to help out the IAF !!!!
You are going to end up grounding your fleet no matter what!!
and You can't answer, because YOU DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER!!!
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by chakkunny »

IMHO, the money involved is so big that one would argue that tactical solutions can be evolved to change a scenario requiring an airlift capability provided by a flight of C17s to one requiring a squdron of IL 76s. For instance, (again with Madrassa Math) a 30 ton payload capability would deliver 600 rounds of Nag ATGM at 50 kgs, which comes to just USD15M at USD25K a pop. Why bother with lifting one tank apiece when I can move enough capability to stop a regiment sized thrust with the same payload capability. Of course, the scenario is exaggerated, and I'm not attempting to argue that a light infantry centric force can do what a heavy unit can. However, I find it difficult to believe that meaningful airborne capabilities cannot be obtained, without having to move loads that exceed an IL 78's cargo dimensions. Shortcomings can be compensated by alternatives. I agree that those have a cost too, but the margins that the Tax payer is shelling out for a sweet spot airlift capability is ridiculous. My guess is that we can bankroll a DRDO program for a Weisel-MKI for this kind of margin.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Shalav »

Craig there is no need to shout and be rude. Quoting cliches and yelling is not a substitute for reason.

As I see it - you are supporting the option that we pay the US more for equipment and capability we can get cheaper from the Russians. You want us to overlook the possibility of sanctions on US equipment even though we have never been sanctioned by Russia. I think that's an unreasonable request.

If we are getting screwed by both suppliers (as I summarize from your yelling) and paying them for the privilege, why pay one supplier more when we can get more tonnage capability for less from the Russians?

PS: Also there is no need to quote my entire post when you reply immediately after - most people can follow discussions here you know.

--- added later---
When the US sanctions its military equipment supplies it also includes spare parts, it is effectively the same as the Russians not being able to supply spare parts. Again the question arises "So why pay them more?"

As I see it, at-least the Russians will try to do something. The US companies do not have to do anything.
Last edited by Shalav on 25 Feb 2010 00:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by negi »

C-17 acquisition is more to please the Unkil by the UPA gobmint strateghic lift is just an ostensible justification ; hell IA is yet to accept and induct Arjun in required numbers to even talk about acquiring dedicated heavy lift TA for Arjun sized high density payload. As for IL-76 and its capability to airlift the T-90 well did anyone bother to check if the new version with uprated engine can do the job ?

Infact the very fact that like other acquisitions from Unkil this is not a multi vendor tender it looks like this deal is born out of political compulsions than service GSQRs else how do we explain Gobmint's response to Arty,M2k upgrade and MRCA tender in comparasion ?

And what happened to Gobmint's bean counters who snubbed the IAF's selection of Airbus A-330 MRTT as their mid air refueler and all this in the name of "COST" ? C-17 by that logic should not even figure in anyone's wild imagniation .
Last edited by negi on 25 Feb 2010 00:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Shalav wrote:As I see it - you are supporting the option that we pay the US more for equipment and capability we can get cheaper from the Russians.
You can't get the capability from the Russians at any price.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by GeorgeWelch »

negi wrote:As for IL-76 and its capability to airlift the T-90 well did anyone bother to check if the new version with uprated engine can do the job ?
It's not the weight, it's the width.

It simply doesn't fit

New engines do nothing to address the problem that the Il-76 cargo box is too small
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Shalav »

That is a mistatement.

Please do not quote brochure figure here, since the image and article clearly mentions the T72 was transported on the IL76.

According to your brochure even the T72 would not fit in - but they did - and there is plenty of room on either side (> 4") to fit the T90 - I believe my eyes not not propagandu.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... 7/0133.jpg
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Shalav wrote:Please do not quote brochure figure here, since the image and article clearly mentions the T72 was transported on the IL76.
Right, NOT the T-90
Shalav wrote:According to your brochure even the T72 would not fit in
Say what? The Il-76 was always advertised as being able to carry the T-72

It's just that the Soviets didn't actually do it because it was TOUGH
Shalav wrote:and there is plenty of room on either side (> 4") to fit the T90 - I believe my eyes not not propagandu.
I repeat, have your eyes seen any pictures of a T-90 inside an Il-76?

Why don't you read the article that picture is attached to?

If you read the article you would know that the problem is that tanks don't have very fine control. Trying to get it positioned within inches is simply something it's not designed to do.

Fitting the T-72 was very tough, half or more of the planes were damaged in the attempt. Making the tank another 7.5" wider moves it from the realm of 'difficult' to 'impossible'.

Disabling all your cargo planes as you try to load clumsy tanks is counter-productive
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Shalav »

Doesn't matter it was done once and can be done again.

We don't have to pay Rs. 18,000 crores for sanction prone equipment. US equipment is too expensive for India and what it requires. We don't need to transport troops to the "Northern cities of China" The main task of the IAF transporters is to get troops and supplies to the army on India's borders. For that we can get more airlift capability for less price from the Russians.

And did I mention Russian equipment does not come with strings attached like end-use agreements and probability of sanctions!
Last edited by Shalav on 25 Feb 2010 01:09, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Shalav wrote:Doesn't matter it was done once and can be done again.
It was NOT done once.

It has not ever been done and it never will be done.

Please point me to this account of a T-90 on an Il-76 you seem to believe exists.

A T-90 is NOT the same as a T-72.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Shalav »

Well the article on BR states it was done so it was done.

Like I someone mentioned earlier, most equipment in Rail transported within India anyway. The IAF does not need expensive sanction prone shiny baubles. It needs sanction proof muscle. The C17 is not sanction-proof reliability for the IAF.

Over that it is very expensive.

PS:
That was my "But it is not sanction-proof" rona dhona for this page. I will be back on page 18 (hopefully not before then)
Last edited by Shalav on 25 Feb 2010 01:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Shalav wrote:Well the article on BR states it was done so it was done.
Which article?
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Shalav »

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... ewoor.html

Ray saab pointed it out in the first post of this page.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Samay »

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Shalav wrote:As I see it - you are supporting the option that we pay the US more for equipment and capability we can get cheaper from the Russians.
You can't get the capability from the Russians at any price.
can you elaborate on the term 'capability' with some links,as you seem too sure on what you are saying ??
Last edited by Samay on 25 Feb 2010 01:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Shalav wrote:http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Histo ... ewoor.html

Ray saab pointed it out in the first post of this page.
There is no reference to the T-90 anywhere in that article.

Care to try again?
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Shalav »

Pedantry gets you nowhere.

If the T72 can be airlifted, the T90 can be too, I see more than 10cm of space on either side of that of the T72 being offloaded from the IL76 in Leh.

The T72 can certainly be there. So the C17 does not provide any capability the IL76 can't as far as Indian needs are concerned.


---added later---

BTW here's a T90 on an IL-76

http://pilot.strizhi.info/photos/d/2485 ... 050_mk.jpg
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Samay wrote:
GeorgeWelch wrote:You can't get the capability from the Russians at any price.
can you elaborate on the term 'capability' with some links ??
It's simple.

Russia 'offers' (in the theoretical sense, since neither is in production) 2 airlifters that 'bracket' the C-17.

The Il-76 is too small to carry all the largest equipment (T-90, Arjun, AW-101, larger MRAPs, etc)

The An-124 has no tactical/short-field capability.

The C-17 is the only airlifter that can carry the largest equipment to the smallest fields.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Craig Alpert »

Shalav wrote:We don't need to transport troops to the "Northern cities of China" The main task of the IAF transporters is to get troops and supplies to the army on India's borders.
Maybe you'd prefer Chinese Troops in Norther part of India then??
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Shalav »

re: T90 - see image above

The C17 is too expensive and too sanction-prone for the marginal upgrade in capability it provides.

As regards

re: Smallest fields - now we are in my area. Please define the following

Payload (metric t)
Altitude (in m or ft)
field length (in m or ft)
fuel load (in kg or lb)

we can check your claims mathematically.

re: Chinese troops in India. The C17 by itself will not prevent a Chinese invasion, just like the IL-76. But they can both be used to ferry troops and equipment to the front. Only the IL-76 will do it cheaper without the threat of sanctions. It will also carry the T-90 India's MBT despite claims to the contrary.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Surya »

if thats the T 90 inside a IL 76

oh boy not even a sheet of paper can go in the gap between wall and tank :mrgreen:
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Shalav wrote:---added later---

BTW here's a T90 on an IL-76

http://pilot.strizhi.info/photos/d/2485 ... 050_mk.jpg

Congratulations, good find

So apparently you can cram a T-90 in an Il-76 . . . somehow

However, there are still many things you simply cannot cram in. Arjun, larger MRAPs, certain construction equipment, larger helicopters, etc.

The point still stands that if you need the capability to move these items, the Il-76 is not an option
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Shalav »

Surya,

A little exaggerated, but since it does fit in the IL-76 cargo box, we can lay to rest the spurious claims of the T-90 not being able to fit into the IL-76 cargo box.

George,

Apparently you do not want to let us mathematically test your other contention of landing in smaller fields. When you do have your numbers ready let us know. I will need to do a little research on the C17, but given those numbers we can test the scenarios you present.
Last edited by Shalav on 25 Feb 2010 02:00, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by negi »

Shalav nice find I guess you can rest your case. :wink:
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Surya »

Shalav

not arguing that - just knowing how much toruble thye had with the T 72 loading - wondering how they must have struggled with the & 90 load


would like a read of what they did , how much time they took and make sure there was a take off with that :mrgreen:

But for now you have a point.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by GeorgeWelch »

Shalav wrote:Apparently you do not want to let us mathematically test your other contention of landing in smaller fields. When you do have your numbers ready let us know. I will need to do a little research on the C17, but given those numbers we can test the scenarios you present.
I don't have time to check right now, will look at it later
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Gilles »

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Please show me a picture of a T-90 on an Il-76.

No such picture exists
Well now that a picture of a T-90 inside an IL-76 has been produced, you, dear Sir, show us a picture of an Indian Arjun inside a C-17. While you are at it, I would also like to see a Canadian Leopard II inside a Canadian C-17 and a British Challenger 2 tank inside a British C-17.

I suspect the sole reason the Aussies purchased used M-1 Abrams tanks at the same time they purchased the C-17 is because its the only modern main battle tank that is certified to fit inside the C-17.

The difficulty in loading the T-72 inside the IL-76 was because instead of having an engineering team work on developing a technique of loading and unloading the tank into the aircraft and writing an instruction manual on how to perform the task (as the US did to load the M-1 Abrams into the C-17), the IAF flight crews had to improvise a method through trial and error when they were tasked with airlifting T-72s to Sri Lanka. I did not read that they had any problems with subsequent T-72 airlifts such as the one to Leh which is mentioned the article, probably thanks to the lessons learned in the initial airlift.

Now I would like to actually SEE a C-17 land on a real 3500 foot unpaved runway with a 39 tonne payload in the belly. I do not want to see a C-17 land in under 3500 feet on a long dry, asphalt runway, I know it can do that, I want to see the real thing. I am also dying to see a C-17 land in any of those mountain unpaved airstrips where the An-32s routinely land. Just a little demo, with an Arjun in the hold.......

Finally about the Il-76. Nine hundred and sixty (960) Il-76 airframes were built. More than all US C-141s (285), C-5s (131) and C-17s (±200) put together. There are still over 200 IL-76s in airline service today and about as many in military service. There are also several hundred grounded ones in the world, old, damaged, derelict, time-expired, or just neglected.

The original engines of the IL-76 (D-30) are the most common aircraft engines in Russia. It is found not only on the IL-76 but on the IL-62 and the Tu-134, Tu-154. The new version, the PS-90, is still in production and is found on the IAF A-50 AWACS, on the IL-76TD-90 but also on the IL-96 and on the Tu-204.

Many of the avionics and parts of the IL-76 are common to other popular Russian and Ukrainians models.

To claim that it is hard to find parts for an Il-76 is just plainly ridiculous. If those who want to back such a claim can produce a single Il-76 in the world whose owner has money to buy parts but cannot find a certain part to fix his IL-76, let us hear about it.

There are only 26 Commercial An-124s in the world and only one An-225. Not a single one of them is grounded for lack of parts. Why ? They are money makers.

The only Il-76s that are grounded for lack of parts are those whose owners have no money to buy them.
Last edited by Gilles on 25 Feb 2010 03:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Brando »

GeorgeWelch wrote:Airfields are actually very hard to put out of commission

Railways on the other hand are very vulnerable to both conventional and terrorist/guerrilla attacks.
Actually, airfields are not too hard to put out of commission. Without enough level space for an aircraft to take off, an airfield is no better than an agricultural field.
Also, train tracks are much cheaper, easier and quicker to repair than airports.
GeorgeWelch wrote: But the heart of your question is 'Why have air transport at all?'

If you believe you can ship the biggest items you will need via land, why can't you ship smaller items by land too?
If India seriously hopes to defend its borders by relying on "airlift" to meet its basic logistical needs, then it has no chance in hell of holding on to its borders! Air transport can only be reliably used as an axillary supply mechanism during contingency situations. No nation worth its salt would try to defend a border that it can't supply over land. Road and Rail allow you to transport enormous amounts of men and material at very cheap rates and quite effeciently when compared to air transport. A C17 can transport 1 tank, while a train can transport a battalion at less cost!

The question then is NOT "why have air transport at all? " but rather "What role should air transport play in the overall logistical picture ?".
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by RayC »

C17 Note short take off and landing

Watch this youtube video on C 17

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVHZzjRz ... re=related

Note the C 17 on a dirt runway and the various loads.
Last edited by RayC on 25 Feb 2010 06:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by bhavani »

brando,

I think what you say makes perfect sense. Extending train tracks and building a pretty good road network is the best way to build a good logistical network.

We need to spend on the train network and road network on our eastern borders and and western borders. C-17 is just a real expensive toy that only likes of unkle can afford.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Gilles »

Shalav wrote: BTW here's a T90 on an IL-76

http://pilot.strizhi.info/photos/d/2485 ... 050_mk.jpg
I took a closer look and became suspicious when I noticed that the tank was so far forward in the cabin. In an Il-76, such a heavy load would have been installed right underneath the wing spar, which is not visible in this picture...

This Russian T-90 is actually inside an An-22.......

Sorry............
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Gilles »

RayC wrote:C17 Note short take off and landing

Watch this youtube video on C 17

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVHZzjRz ... re=related

Note the C 17 on a dirt runway and the various loads.
For the millionth time: Everyone claims the C-17 can land on unpaved austere runways of 3500 feet x 90 feet, but no one ever does it. Its great to land a light and empty C-17 in under 3,500 feet on a 10,000 foot runway.

I want to see one land on an actual 3500 runway with a payload in it (for landing without a payload is useless).

I found ONE 3900 foot landing US Air Force landing in Vestmannaeyjar, Iceland with one whale as payload, and ONE 3,850 foot landing by the RAF at UK's Cosford after having delivered a helicopter to a museum.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK---Air ... b99634735c

In actual 3500 foot unpaved runways with a real payload, it never does it. Never. Any idea why ? A wild guess maybe ?
Last edited by Gilles on 25 Feb 2010 07:14, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by RayC »

The idea to have a raillink is a good one.

However, a couple of issues have to be borne in mind with regards to railway in Ladakh.

The valleys are narrow and it is a barren land with no cover. Therefore, the road hugs the valley along the river and is barely capable of two lane traffic. At places, of course it opens up. But they are few and far between and unless the rail link is all through, it will be meaningless.

The very fact that the road is there, which is prone to avalanches, snow slides and landslide and it takes up the available space or space created by cutting the side of the mountains, one wonders if there will be space to have a double line rail link.

From the military point of view, because Ladakh is barren and the valleys are narrow, movement of all types are easy for interdiction. During the Kargil War, it will be recollected that this was a problem, even though air force was not used by the enemy and if they had it would have created a greater problem.

I would not like to get into details, but there is adequate actions taken to ensure that war matériel is adequate to take on the contingencies. Airlift is basically to augment in an emergency or for inaccessible areas like the Siachen.

For those who are keen on the economics, one could work out the cost of the ATF, pilots pay and allowances, housing of the air staff that flies and maintains an aircraft, cost of maintenance of an air cargo aircraft vs that of many aircraft required to lift the payload of a larger aircraft.

For instance, it is cheaper to fly in by charter people going or coming from leave than using many trucks bringing them up and down from their areas of deployment to the railhead. Yet, prima facie without calculating the overall economic, the gut feeling is that truck movement should be cheaper that moving men by air!
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by RayC »

Gilles wrote:
RayC wrote:C17 Note short take off and landing

Watch this youtube video on C 17

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVHZzjRz ... re=related

Note the C 17 on a dirt runway and the various loads.
For the millionth time: Everyone claims the C-17 can land on unpaved austere runways of 3500 feet x 90 feet, but no one ever does it. Its great to land a light and empty C-17 in under 3,500 feet on a 10,000 foot runway.

I want to see one land on an actual 3500 runway with a payload in it (for landing without a payload is useless).

It never does it. Never. Any idea why ? A wild guess maybe ?
If one observes the video clip
C-17 Globemaster III arrives at Dover AFB
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVHZzjRz ... re=related
it will be realised that the dust that one observes behind the C 17 is the dust being kicked up from an unpaved runway.

Those who have seen aircraft land and take off on a tarmac will realise that such dust is not kicked up.

I would not guess. Since you know, do tell us.
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by RayC »

Gilles wrote:
RayC wrote:C17 Note short take off and landing

Watch this youtube video on C 17

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVHZzjRz ... re=related

Note the C 17 on a dirt runway and the various loads.
For the millionth time: Everyone claims the C-17 can land on unpaved austere runways of 3500 feet x 90 feet, but no one ever does it. Its great to land a light and empty C-17 in under 3,500 feet on a 10,000 foot runway.

I want to see one land on an actual 3500 runway with a payload in it (for landing without a payload is useless).

I found ONE 3900 foot landing US Air Force landing in Vestmannaeyjar, Iceland with one whale as payload, and ONE 3,850 foot landing by the RAF at UK's Cosford after having delivered a helicopter to a museum.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/UK---Air ... b99634735c

In actual 3500 foot unpaved runways with a real payload, it never does it. Never. Any idea why ? A wild guess maybe ?
Hope this helps:

Image

If you watch the video you will observe this event.

Now if the IAF wants to buy this aircraft, I take it that they would be wise enough like us to not take things at face value and instead validate each of the claim made by the manufacturers.
Gilles
BRFite
Posts: 517
Joined: 08 Nov 2009 08:25

Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by Gilles »

RayC wrote: If one observes the video clip
C-17 Globemaster III arrives at Dover AFB
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVHZzjRz ... re=related
it will be realised that the dust that one observes behind the C 17 is the dust being kicked up from an unpaved runway.

Those who have seen aircraft land and take off on a tarmac will realise that such dust is not kicked up.

I would not guess. Since you know, do tell us.
It is an unpaved runway. But its a very long one. And often, as I've written on this very forum, these "unpaved" runways were custom built in the United States and one in Australia to allow C-17 "unpaved" practice. But they are built to a standard that would support even the heaviest of heavy jets.

In the United States, in Canada and in Australia, where there are thousands of civilian unpaved runways, the C-17 NEVER lands in any of them, because it would destroy them (the runways, not the aircraft :roll: ) if it did.

That is why they make "special" "unsurfaced" runways where they practice. And none of these are only 3500 feet long, although anyone who talks about the C-17, including two different people on your Dover Air Force base video, claim that "it can land on 3500 foot runways"
Last edited by Gilles on 25 Feb 2010 10:33, edited 1 time in total.
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: C-17s for the IAF?

Post by RayC »

IL 76

Crew
6 or 7
Length
46.6m
Height
14.42m
Wingspan
50.5m
Maximum Take-Off Weight
170t
Load-Carrying Capacity
47t
Powerplant
4 x D-30kp turbofans

The runway length are:
Il-76TD, 1,700m (take-off) and 1,000m (landing).
Il-76TD90, 1,450m (take-off) and 930m (landing).
Il-76TDF, 1,800m (take-off) and 990m (landing).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHa0FZaRw2Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEorHiHP ... re=related

IL 76 Landing
http://www.fouye.com/video.php/14564

C 17 Landing and fire reverse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9bNOkE9FUg

C17 take off and landing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2awzBWwr3Y

Very Close View of Take Off C 17
http://vimeo.com/861246

C 17

Flight crew 2 pilots
Observer positions 2

Technical specification C 17
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/mil ... 17spec.htm
Last edited by RayC on 25 Feb 2010 10:42, edited 3 times in total.
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