Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

[Sanku]

I read last four pages


The official order to induct Arjun's was actually taken in 1998. Till today EVEN the 124 it prescribed have not been inducted, and sure, its all IAs fault.

If folks want 5000 tanks to be all Arjun's in next two days, I am sure the jingo dream thread would suffice. In real life -- let us be very cognizant of basic limitations of Indian Mil-Ind complex.

Meanwhile; if some one really wants a Jeehard, it should be directed at GoI for not funding and managing the Mil-Ind complex in the right manner.

The truth is simple; there are 2500 vacanices waiting for Arjun; it will fill it whenever its ready.

Meanwhile; is there a upgrade path for Arjun? Any plans for Arjun Mark II? Should CVRDE be ALREADY working on the next gen and showing where they can go if given a chance? (A comparison is with ADA's MCA -- as LCAs get ready to operationalize)

Isnt that the much more important question rather than picking the scabs of a 30 year olf disaster?

[rohitvats]

I read last four pages:roll:

You read the last four pages of the debate and are still giving the same arguments which have been de-bunked. Time for me to use.

The official order to induct Arjun's was actually taken in 1998. Till today EVEN the 124 it prescribed have not been inducted, and sure, its all IAs fault

The fact that the serial production of Arjun began in last two years is minor detail, I assume. And the fact that IA conducted AUCRT only in December 2007-August 2008 and came with different sets of requirements/improvement is another minor nitpick. And as late as mid-2008 (after the AUCRT) the IA brass lied to the Parliamentary Defence Standing Committe on the Renk Transmission issue is another small fly in the ointment. But these details and their implications is generally lost on people who have already made up their mind. In case you feel like, you can read the Development History of Arjun Tank here:

http://frontierindia.net/history-of-arj ... evelopment

Let me qoute a para for posterity and for sake of reference for those who are willing to learn:

1995 – 2000

A set of dedicated trials as directed by the COAS was carried out during August – December 1995 successfully.

The Prime Minister P.V Narsimha Rao dedicated the MBT Arjun to the nation in January 1996.

The Army designated the XV PPS tank as the reference tank for production.

In the year 1997, 11 PPS tanks participated in Indian Army Exercise “AGNIR.ATI-t.” (A clarification on the name of the exercise is needed. It could be Exercise Agnirathi). 10 Arjun Tanks successfully completed the exercise. But the Army again came back with suggestions and modifications. In November 1997, the final list of suggested modifications and “joint Action Plan” for the implementation and certification was drafted. DRDO implemented the modification to the satisfaction of the Indian Army.

The Indian Amy again put the improved tanks to trials. The 43rd Armoured Regiment conducted the automotive trials. The trials were successful and Arjun tank was brought ready for full scale production.

The Arjun MBT project was successfully closed at Rupees 305 Crores. The final acceptance by the Indian Army led to placement of order for 124 Arjun Tanks in 2002.

DRDO transferred the design and other drawings to the manufacturing agency HVF in 2002.

The Authorised Holder of the Sealed Particulars is with DRDO till certain maturity level is reached in production, i.e, the first 30 tanks produced by HVF will have quality control certified by DRDO. After that Arjun Tank will be certified by DGQA.

And before you ask me why the delay, please read the whole production story here: http://frontierindia.net/indian-army-ge ... -mbt-arjun. Again, allow me to quote a section of the report:

As there was a long gap from the R&D phase to production phase from 1993 to 2000, problems related to re-establishing production lines and vendor sources and resolving overseas issues like technology denial in view of Pokhran testing, change over and mergers of OEMS for the critical items, delayed initial commencement of production. In order to meet the production requirement, additional infrastructure facilities and machine tools were established at HVF, Avadi and Ordnance Factory, Medak. However, the first pilot batch of production tanks was handed over to Army on 7th August 2004 in the presence of the then Defence Minister Shri. Pranab Mukherjee. During subsequent production, Army insisted upon the demonstration of medium fording capabilities of MBT Arjun. Both CVRDE and HVF, continuously worked on war footing, to meet the stringent requirement of medium fording to a height of 2.1m in water with preparation time of 30 minutes as retro-fitment solution and demonstrated successfully to Defence Minister Shri A.K.Antony and other dignitaries on 2nd July 2007. Subsequently, the production tanks were incorporated with all medium fording modifications and the next batch of nine tanks were handed over by Sep 2007.

Meanwhile, Army carried out the Accelerated Usage Cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT) in 5 phases on two tanks from Nov 2007 to Aug 2008 covering more than 8000 km and 800 rounds of firing in each tank. AUCRT is required for assessing the spares requirement for the entire life of the tank besides evaluation of reliability of tank. Each phase consists of 1000kms run and 100EFC (Approx. 160 rounds of APFSDS and HESH – Primary and secondary rounds) over a temperature range of -5 to 500C. One of the main issues during AUCRT trials was the failure of the bearings of Transmission of M/s RENK, Germany, due to rise in lub oil temperature. However, this was immediately solved by modifying the software during AUCRT itself and the efficacy of the software was proved for more than 4000kms. However a comprehensive solution of modifying the bearing assembly by providing a special coating was carried out to take care of the temperature problem and the retrofitment of bearing assembly being carried out in all the tanks.

The outcome of AUCRT trials raised the confidence levels of the users over the reliability and endurance of MBT Arjun and they confirmed that the overall performance of the MBT Arjun during the stringent AUCRT trials was satisfactory and cleared the production tanks with minor modifications suggested during AUCRT, for induction. Both CVRDE and HVF along with DGQA agencies worked out methodologies to introduce all AUCRT modifications within shortest time frame and the next batch of 17 tanks were handed over to Army by 3rd March 2009.

I hope next time you want miss these minor details. Thank you.

[Sanku]

rohitvats; spare me the lecture on "details" I have read pretty much every post on Arjun and all the brouhaha on it. The reason that I repeat the same things is because hey every one on the thread is doing exactly the same.

Its all a big mela.

Meanwhile let me yawn and repeat my question

Meanwhile; is there a upgrade path for Arjun? Any plans for Arjun Mark II? Shouldnt CVRDE be ALREADY working on the next gen and showing where they can go if given a chance? (A comparison is with ADA's MCA -- as LCAs get ready to operationalize)

IA will take in Arjun when it is ready; as shown by clearing of predefined trials between all the stake holders -- till then all the emotional angst about "how IA is this or that and why did they use word X instead of Y, thats lying" etc etc is pop corn variety.

What is CVRDE doing for Arjun upgrade path is the only question I am interested in, that too me is actually the most important question.

Along with how Avadi is addressing all the repeated quality issues.

Those are real questions

The other minor questions which are never discussed are --
Where's the engine and transmission indegnisation plan? Why is not moving faster?
Whats the deal with PPP in mil automotive design?

This emotional hand wringing just keeps the focus away from real debate.

[RayC]

I read last four pages:roll:

You read the last four pages of the debate and are still giving the same arguments which have been de-bunked. Time for me to use.

The official order to induct Arjun's was actually taken in 1998. Till today EVEN the 124 it prescribed have not been inducted, and sure, its all IAs fault

The fact that the serial production of Arjun began in last two years is minor detail, I assume. And the fact that IA conducted AUCRT only in December 2007-August 2008 and came with different sets of requirements/improvement is another minor nitpick. And as late as mid-2008 (after the AUCRT) the IA brass lied to the Parliamentary Defence Standing Committe on the Renk Transmission issue is another small fly in the ointment. But these details and their implications is generally lost on people who have already made up their mind. In case you feel like, you can read the Development History of Arjun Tank here:

http://frontierindia.net/history-of-arj ... evelopment

Let me qoute a para for posterity and for sake of reference for those who are willing to learn:

1995 – 2000

A set of dedicated trials as directed by the COAS was carried out during August – December 1995 successfully.

The Prime Minister P.V Narsimha Rao dedicated the MBT Arjun to the nation in January 1996.

The Army designated the XV PPS tank as the reference tank for production.

In the year 1997, 11 PPS tanks participated in Indian Army Exercise “AGNIR.ATI-t.” (A clarification on the name of the exercise is needed. It could be Exercise Agnirathi). 10 Arjun Tanks successfully completed the exercise. But the Army again came back with suggestions and modifications. In November 1997, the final list of suggested modifications and “joint Action Plan” for the implementation and certification was drafted. DRDO implemented the modification to the satisfaction of the Indian Army.

The Indian Amy again put the improved tanks to trials. The 43rd Armoured Regiment conducted the automotive trials. The trials were successful and Arjun tank was brought ready for full scale production.

The Arjun MBT project was successfully closed at Rupees 305 Crores. The final acceptance by the Indian Army led to placement of order for 124 Arjun Tanks in 2002.

DRDO transferred the design and other drawings to the manufacturing agency HVF in 2002.

The Authorised Holder of the Sealed Particulars is with DRDO till certain maturity level is reached in production, i.e, the first 30 tanks produced by HVF will have quality control certified by DRDO. After that Arjun Tank will be certified by DGQA.

And before you ask me why the delay, please read the whole production story here: http://frontierindia.net/indian-army-ge ... -mbt-arjun. Again, allow me to quote a section of the report:

As there was a long gap from the R&D phase to production phase from 1993 to 2000, problems related to re-establishing production lines and vendor sources and resolving overseas issues like technology denial in view of Pokhran testing, change over and mergers of OEMS for the critical items, delayed initial commencement of production. In order to meet the production requirement, additional infrastructure facilities and machine tools were established at HVF, Avadi and Ordnance Factory, Medak. However, the first pilot batch of production tanks was handed over to Army on 7th August 2004 in the presence of the then Defence Minister Shri. Pranab Mukherjee. During subsequent production, Army insisted upon the demonstration of medium fording capabilities of MBT Arjun. Both CVRDE and HVF, continuously worked on war footing, to meet the stringent requirement of medium fording to a height of 2.1m in water with preparation time of 30 minutes as retro-fitment solution and demonstrated successfully to Defence Minister Shri A.K.Antony and other dignitaries on 2nd July 2007. Subsequently, the production tanks were incorporated with all medium fording modifications and the next batch of nine tanks were handed over by Sep 2007.

Meanwhile, Army carried out the Accelerated Usage Cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT) in 5 phases on two tanks from Nov 2007 to Aug 2008 covering more than 8000 km and 800 rounds of firing in each tank. AUCRT is required for assessing the spares requirement for the entire life of the tank besides evaluation of reliability of tank. Each phase consists of 1000kms run and 100EFC (Approx. 160 rounds of APFSDS and HESH – Primary and secondary rounds) over a temperature range of -5 to 500C. One of the main issues during AUCRT trials was the failure of the bearings of Transmission of M/s RENK, Germany, due to rise in lub oil temperature. However, this was immediately solved by modifying the software during AUCRT itself and the efficacy of the software was proved for more than 4000kms. However a comprehensive solution of modifying the bearing assembly by providing a special coating was carried out to take care of the temperature problem and the retrofitment of bearing assembly being carried out in all the tanks.

The outcome of AUCRT trials raised the confidence levels of the users over the reliability and endurance of MBT Arjun and they confirmed that the overall performance of the MBT Arjun during the stringent AUCRT trials was satisfactory and cleared the production tanks with minor modifications suggested during AUCRT, for induction. Both CVRDE and HVF along with DGQA agencies worked out methodologies to introduce all AUCRT modifications within shortest time frame and the next batch of 17 tanks were handed over to Army by 3rd March 2009.

I hope next time you want miss these minor details. Thank you.

Negi,

If Groshkov is ok for your navy, I presume anything is OK for all!

Ask your father, who is of the Navy, is he is satisfied with what's with the Navy.

I spoke to an ex COAS and I would not like to reproduce what he had to say!

I will just give a hint - he said the Arjun was Mk 1!!

If they whose lives are at stake do not know what is good for them, then I wonder why we great Indian warriors of the BRF don't join the Forces and make it greater and be ready to die with what indigenous stuff is given.

Why are you Armed Forces children not joining the Armed Forces? Why be in the sideline?

Uncle Shyam wants you!

Change it to a pagri and All IZZZ well

[rohitvats]

................<SNIP>...http://frontierindia.net/history-of-arj ... evelopment

Let me qoute a para for posterity and for sake of reference for those who are willing to learn: <SNIP>...............

Negi,

If Groshkov is ok for your navy, I presume anything is OK for all!

Ask your father, who is of the Navy, is he is satisfied with what's with the Navy.

I spoke to an ex COAS and I would not like to reproduce what he had to say!

I will just give a hint - he said the Arjun was Mk 1!!

If they whose lives are at stake do not know what is good for them, then I wonder why we great Indian warriors of the BRF don't join the Forces and make it greater and be ready to die with what indigenous stuff is given.

Why are you Armed Forces children not joining the Armed Forces? Why be in the sideline?

Uncle Shyam wants you!

Change it to a pagri and All IZZZ well

The post you've quoted in above statement is mine and not from Negi. If the question is directed at me, please clarify. Thank you.

[chackojoseph]

Depends upon the COAS spoken to. I have access to some COAS and Admirals and Air chief marshals due to my work. None of the COAS i know seem to have such unprintable words for Arjun Tank.

[rohitvats]

rohitvats; spare me the lecture on "details" I have read pretty much every post on Arjun and all the brouhaha on it. The reason that I repeat the same things is because hey every one on the thread is doing exactly the same.

Its all a big mela.

Meanwhile let me yawn and repeat my question

Meanwhile; is there a upgrade path for Arjun? Any plans for Arjun Mark II? Shouldnt CVRDE be ALREADY working on the next gen and showing where they can go if given a chance? (A comparison is with ADA's MCA -- as LCAs get ready to operationalize)

IA will take in Arjun when it is ready; as shown by clearing of predefined trials between all the stake holders -- till then all the emotional angst about "how IA is this or that and why did they use word X instead of Y, thats lying" etc etc is pop corn variety.

What is CVRDE doing for Arjun upgrade path is the only question I am interested in, that too me is actually the most important question.

Along with how Avadi is addressing all the repeated quality issues.

Those are real questions

The other minor questions which are never discussed are --
Where's the engine and transmission indegnisation plan? Why is not moving faster?
Whats the deal with PPP in mil automotive design?

This emotional hand wringing just keeps the focus away from real debate.

So, if someone calls your bluff, it becomes lecture? When facts and figures fly in face of your assertions and arguments, you resort to rehtoric devoid of any logic and reason. You chose to make claims about non-availability of Arjun even though you knew the "detail"? Please, spare me the drivel.

Actually, the kind of arguments that you make and tactics that you use while debating the Arjun issue, in terms of shifting the goal post when your bluff is called, examplifies the smoke and mirror tactics used by those who want to scuttle the Arjun program. You have nary a fact or figure, yet you argue for the sake of it.

Meanwhile; is there a upgrade path for Arjun? Any plans for Arjun Mark II? Shouldnt CVRDE be ALREADY working on the next gen and showing where they can go if given a chance? (A comparison is with ADA's MCA -- as LCAs get ready to operationalize)

How ingenious can you get? IA has ordered a grand total of 248 Arjuns and you're talking about MKII. Here is an organization that casts aspertions on the baseline product (which is equal, if not better, than its favorite toy), contrary to every documented proof, and you're talking about MKII. Actually, I forsee that what you ask for, is going to be the latest tactics of 'powers-that-be' to further delay the Arjun programme (in terms of induction in numbers). I can actually visualize DGMF saying,"Get me the MK II version with this and that, and then we'll see".

And while we're at it, can you tell me what is update path of T-90?

IA will take in Arjun when it is ready; as shown by clearing of predefined trials between all the stake holders -- till then all the emotional angst about "how IA is this or that and why did they use word X instead of Y, thats lying" etc etc is pop corn variety.

Since you know all the details of Arjun story, can you tell me one parameter, only one, in terms of which Arjun is not ready? I'm waiting to be educated.

Along with how Avadi is addressing all the repeated quality issues.

How does that stand against the Arjun Tank? Last I heard, and our freind d_berwal was good enough to share the info, that the problem applies to production of T-90 as well. Did you hear the IA stopping the ongoing induction of T-90 till evey thing is sorted out@Avadhi?

The other minor questions which are never discussed are --
Where's the engine and transmission indegnisation plan? Why is not moving faster?
Whats the deal with PPP in mil automotive design?

How is the induction of Arjun in numbers related to above arguments? Or are you telling me that unless we fully indigenise the Arjun, we're not going to induct the tank in strength? Psst...let me tell you a small secret--the whole lot of T-90 inducted in first and second phase were imported....only now have the 'indian' T-90 rolled out and that also, a grand total of 10 tanks.....

Next time, save us the "Lecture" and stick to facts and some common sense.....

[Kanson]

Kanson, if he is from the IA, he would not want to do it because once you tie down to a set of defects, you cannot claim that everything else is wrong with the Tank. So d_berwal will never answer your question just like he is ducking Surya's question.

Ok ji, i take ur advice.

[Kanson]

Depends upon the COAS spoken to. I have access to some COAS and Admirals and Air chief marshals due to my work. None of the COAS i know seem to have such unprintable words for Arjun Tank.

It all depends upon whom you have spoken to and you are right. Roy Chowdhury is a firm suppoter of Arjun.

As per individuals I have spoken with in the past, Indian Army has a strong reason to induct Arjun Tanks. It is expected Al-Khalid tank is putting on weight, as it adds on new systems in future Mark phases.

Does this have the blessings of DGMF ? Atleast the ex-DGMF says they want to be like IN in project mangement from now onwards. Dont see anything like that from the current DGMF.

[Sanku]

Facts yeah; like IA lied and there was sabotage. All the tests were fraud -- despite the fact that ALL STAKE HOLDERS were involved.



Meanwhile The Russians do have a upgrade path to T 90 --> the black eagle.

So tomorrow when the push comes to shove and there are newer generation tanks on the battlefield --> will CVRDE take another 30 years?

I dont see a 300 a/c order for LCA, why is ADA talking of MCA?

Let us be blunt here --> The Arjun is in current state because this is the best our Mil Ind complex can do in current form --> Finding scape goats with X, Y or Z is not going to cut it.

And all my questions are related to ONE and ONE aspect ONLY --> WHAT IS THE UPGRADE PATH FOR THE MIL-IND COMPLEX?

[Aditya_V]

Sanku- > You cannot improve on a product in Vaccum, unless the Army orders 500 + Arjun in its current state, our Miltary Industrial COmplex will not develop. You cannot do your graduation unless you pass 10 and 12th. The Arjun is good enough to inducted, improvements will come once we have learned how to manufacture. A Hero Honda or Bajaj cannot be where we are today with the first CD 100 or KB 100. SImilarly, we did to develop a domestic market. In WWII bot the Sherwins and T-34's were inferior to the Tiger but with numbers they overcame the Germans. The state of American miltary technology before and after WWI was totally different. Unless we produce somthing we can never learn.

[chackojoseph]

It all depends upon whom you have spoken to and you are right. Roy Chowdhury is a firm suppoter of Arjun.

Does this have the blessings of DGMF ? Atleast the ex-DGMF says they want to be like IN in project mangement from now onwards. Dont see anything like that from the current DGMF.

The point I am making is that all COAS's are not same. So, we cannot go by the opinion of one. If one has an unprintable opinion, its ok.

I can't answer the second Q directly. But, these are the people who are closely associated. To be more specific, it is not just one person who takes these decision. Ofcourse they are divided into various camps. Sometimes one camp weighs more than the other.

Another thing I figured out is the decision taking is volatile. I report something one time and then I see ground has shifted. Case in the point is Tank Ex. One time it looked impossible and next year I report 2 of them will be tested.

But, I tried to give a overall picture of how tanks might evolve in South Asia.

[Sanku]

Sanku- > You cannot improve on a product in Vaccum, unless the Army orders 500 + Arjun in its current state, our Miltary Industrial COmplex will not develop. You cannot do your graduation unless you pass 10 and 12th. The Arjun is good enough to inducted, improvements will come once we have learned how to manufacture. A Hero Honda or Bajaj cannot be where we are today with the first CD 100 or KB 100. SImilarly, we did to develop a domestic market. In WWII bot the Sherwins and T-34's were inferior to the Tiger but with numbers they overcame the Germans. The state of American miltary technology before and after WWI was totally different. Unless we produce somthing we can never learn.

Aditya_V; that is partially correct but not completely.

For example, its clear that LCA does not have a large order book YET, however, LCA upgrades and MCA are already in pipe line.

For R&D -- the money which comes HAS to be independent of customer orders to an extent, thats why its call R&D. If CVRDE does not have the money to have future drawing board projects -- it sorely needs to be funded. This is critical and independent of current state of Arjun.

The above is a point I have been trying to drum in to those who frankly are tripping over hair cracks in cement while missing the real issue at hand.

I expect CVRDE to quickly move to
1) establish a core R&D strength in critical areas which are currently missing
2) Have a second line product in pipe line
3) Fix QUALITY issues in manufacturing

A lack of the above is CRIMINAL and is NOT IAs fault. If it baby sits CVRDE (which if you read the Arjun saga it has done a LOT over the 30 years) good but the responsibility ultimately rests with CVRDE/DRDO/MoD -- thats how our system is structured today and hence it is these folks who have responsibility.

[Kanson]

Meanwhile; is there a upgrade path for Arjun? Any plans for Arjun Mark II? Shouldnt CVRDE be ALREADY working on the next gen and showing where they can go if given a chance? (A comparison is with ADA's MCA -- as LCAs get ready to operationalize)

What is CVRDE doing for Arjun upgrade path is the only question I am interested in, that too me is actually the most important question.

Duh..what? Mk2?...Why sir ur interested in Mk2? Did the IA confirmed more order above 124? Or, did they released the new GSQR for the Mk2 or is there any letter of intent from the Army for the Mk2 with firm orders...and you know drdo is not minting money...from where comes the expenses for the development. Did Army willing to co-fund the mk2 development? Before comapring LCA and MCA, is the Army is determined to act as IAF ? IAF placed firm orders for both LCA mk1 and mk2.

The other minor questions which are never discussed are --
Where's the engine and transmission indegnisation plan? Why is not moving faster?
Whats the deal with PPP in mil automotive design?

who will produce engine and transmission for the punny 124 tanks...break even is ~500. Confirm the order in numbers and then lets talk abt transmission and engine...and by the way talk is cheap...

For example, its clear that LCA does not have a large order book YET, however, LCA upgrades and MCA are already in pipe line.

For R&D -- the money which comes HAS to be independent of customer orders to an extent, thats why its call R&D. If CVRDE does not have the money to have future drawing board projects -- it sorely needs to be funded. This is critical and independent of current state of Arjun.

On both counts you are wrong...there is a firm order and large order for the LCA...

[Kanson]

I can't answer the second Q directly. But, these are the people who are closely associated. To be more specific, it is not just one person who takes these decision. Ofcourse they are divided into various camps. Sometimes one camp weighs more than the other.

From 2007 i'm hearing about more orders. But thanks for providing some positive news. It always gives hope.

[rohitvats]

Facts yeah; like IA lied and there was sabotage. All the tests were fraud -- despite the fact that ALL STAKE HOLDERS were involved.

Nope, dear sir. The above arguments are used by likes of you to obfuscate the issue at hand and talk nonsense.

Facts like Arjuns "hardened electronics" work in blistering heat of Pohkaran while the good old T-90 needs an environment system. Guess, the tanks were missing Siberia. Fact like Arjun has far superior crew protection system than any of Russian T-XX tanks. Fact like Arjun is ready for production and induction in large numbers. But they are all lost on you and your ilk.

Meanwhile The Russians do have a upgrade path to T 90 --> the black eagle.

So, Black Eagle program is next step in T-90 development cycle?

Like I said earlier, you argue for sake of it and have nothing worthwile to add to the disucssion. But like every cloud having a silver lining, there are actually two postives that come out from your posts. One, the shaky wicket of Arjun bashers becomes amply clear when shown the facts and figures and other, it help this abdul to increase post count. Now who would have thought of that.....

As for the statement above, did you even bother to check what Black Eagle program is or better what it was was and what is its present status? And ever heard of so called T-95 or Object 195 project and what it is?

Read these on Black Eagle ( this is from wiki-not very diffucult to find):

The Black Eagle tank (Russian: Чёрный Орёл, Chyorny Oryol, or Obyekt 640) was a presumed prototype main battle tank produced in the Russian Federation. It was thought to have been developed by the KBTM design bureau in Omsk in the late 1990s. A production version of this tank has not been publicly demonstrated, and it is unknown whether development continues. The Russian military has denied the existence of the project.[1]

Recent information seems to suggest that the Black Eagle program has been halted due to the acceptance of the T-90, built by Uralvagonzavod, into the Russian military. This is also compounded by the fact the company responsible for the Black Eagle's design, Omsk Transmash, has been in a state of bankruptcy since 2002. As of July 2008, the Russian army plans to adopt a new Uralvagonzavod tank after 2010, possibly to be designated T-95.[3]

Col. Vladimir Voitov, head of research at the Main Directorate of the Armored Troops, denied the existence of the tank in an interview with the Echo Moskvy radio in September 2009. "There was no such project...and those 20-year-old pictures show a mock-up of a futuristic tank which remained just a product of someone's imagination," ... "the turret of the vehicle did not have anything inside."[1]

Now please read these on T-95/Object 195 (from Vasiliy Fofanov's Russian Armor page):

new MBT was developed by V. Potkin's design team in Nizhny Tagil, at the Uralvagonzavod Plant where all the latest Russian tanks except the T-80 were manufactured.

This vehicle is intended to become the new Russian MBT and was planned to enter service in 1994, but due to lack of financing it is still on the testing grounds (according to some reports it has cleared the testing phase around March 1999). As a result, the Russian Army is stuck with the obsolete designs of T-64/T-72/T-80/T-90 line for much longer than it wishes.
The MBT doesn't yet have any lofty name and hides behind some obscure "ob'ekt" designation. In March 2000 the Defense Minister Igor Sergeev, while visiting Nizhny Tagil, said that Russia now "has a new T-95 tank" referring to the MBT being discussed here. It is unclear if this means that the vehicle is finally fielded (as only a fielded vehicle may get T-95 designation), or he just used the term that is sufficiently known in the West to avoid getting into details.

And all my questions are related to ONE and ONE aspect ONLY --> WHAT IS THE UPGRADE PATH FOR THE MIL-IND COMPLEX?

So, now the limelight is away from the Arjun to Indian Mil-Ind complex? Chalo, at least indirectly you accepted that you've no more mud to throw at the Arjun. But as for above, the answer lies in the acceptance of IA that a domestic product, especially a MBT, can be developed by DRDO+associated organizations. LCA will lead to MCA...we know how much we struggled with LCA because of lost opportunities earlier....I hope we do not go down the same path in case of MBT Design and Development.

PS: Some sentences have been highlighted later.

[chackojoseph]

From 2007 i'm hearing about more orders. But thanks for providing some positive news. It always gives hope.

Please read the bottom lines too. I have already given the finer prints.

Another thing I figured out is the decision taking is volatile. I report something one time and then I see ground has shifted.

[Sanku]

Meanwhile; is there a upgrade path for Arjun? Any plans for Arjun Mark II? Shouldnt CVRDE be ALREADY working on the next gen and showing where they can go if given a chance? (A comparison is with ADA's MCA -- as LCAs get ready to operationalize)

What is CVRDE doing for Arjun upgrade path is the only question I am interested in, that too me is actually the most important question.

Duh..what? Mk2?...Why sir ur interested in Mk2? Did the IA confirmed more order above 124? Or, did they released the new GSQR for the Mk2 or is there any letter of intent

As I am sure, the IAF has for MCA right

IAF placed firm orders for both LCA mk1 and mk2.

Firm orders for mk2?

.

On both counts you are wrong...there is a firm order and large order for the LCA...

Please SHOW the link saying firm and large orders for LCA?

rohitvats;

quit kidding; ALL the points I raised remain relevant and you have no answers to any

The entire history of Arjun development is well documented with massive delays and test failures; the order that IA does place can not even be manufactured on time. There is no upgrade path for it.

And BTW -- > its only in the emotionally blinkered world that you guys are living in that you make statements like "you have no mud to throw at Arjun"

I have no mud to throw on ANYONE. I am pragmatically looking at what is the reality instead of hyperventilating and looking for conspiracy theories.

[Kanson]

IAF placed firm orders for both LCA mk1 and mk2.

Firm orders for mk2?

.

On both counts you are wrong...there is a firm order and large order for the LCA...

Please SHOW the link saying firm and large orders for LCA?

by providing the link for lca, will u accept IA scores poorly on desi products...?

[rohitvats]

.............<SNIP>.........

rohitvats;

quit kidding; ALL the points I raised remain relevant and you have no answers to any

................<SNIP>..............

The entire history of Arjun development is well documented with massive delays and test failures; the order that IA does place can not even be manufactured on time

You make statement as above and then claim others are kidding. It's not me whose kidding. So, because the project has had development problem, one should not induct it? Don't tell it to those who developed LCA and those who'd be inducting the system. It's you who has been posting nonsensical arguments which have no relevance to the debate at hand: The lack of induction of Arjun in strength in IA inspite of the tank meeting all required parameters.

ALL the points I raised remain relevant and you have no answers to any

Please show me one point raised by you to which I have not answered and shows that you've been talking nonsense all this while? All the points that you've raised have been drubbed by me based on hard facts and not some "I know better" arguments. You had made certain comments against the Arjun Tank and I had not only de-bunked them but had asked you to clarify/expand on your arguments. And as expected, you've conviniently forgotten to answer any one of those. The reason is quite simple; your arguments are all hot air and no substance.

So, now it all boils down to "upgrade potential" of Arjun? So, if you cannot trash the project on its current standing, start talking about the future? Sure, Arjun has no upgrade path like T-90 has the super-duper Black Eagle .....But do educate us lesser mortals on how did you arrive at this gem of conclusion about lack of upgrade potential? Let me guess.."I'm me and I know better"...save me the inanities please......

As for the balance part of your post.....well it is same old, same old.....somethings really don't change....

[d_berwal]

Most probably next order of ARJUN is a serial upgrade call it MARK II or I or III

UPGRADES
- Integrated BMS (Arjun / T-90)
- CLGM
- Active Protection System (Arjun / T-90)
- Laser Warning Control System (LWCS)
- Mobile camouflaging system (MCS) (Arjun / T-90)
- Upgarded FCS

[Sanku]

Kanson>> IAF placed firm orders for both LCA mk1 and mk2.

Firm orders for mk2?

by providing the link for lca, will u accept IA scores poorly on desi products...?

Perhaps if you could
1) First write out what you want to say in acceptable understandable language
2) Explain how the link for lca demonstrates the IA scores poorly on desi products

Also note I was talking in context of Mk2. It is well known that IAF has a firm order for 20 + another option for 20 (which has been recently converted to firm order as well)

Compare this with firm order for 124 Arjuns in 1998 and most probable follow on orders has the Avadi finally manages its way to provide the first 124 after muddling its way through production issues and such.

[Sanku]

Most probably next order of ARJUN is a serial upgrade call it MARK II or I or III

UPGRADES
- Integrated BMS (Arjun / T-90)
- CLGM
- Active Protection System (Arjun / T-90)
- Laser Warning Control System (LWCS)
- Mobile camouflaging system (MCS) (Arjun / T-90)
- Upgarded FCS

Great list, this is the sort of stuff I was hoping we would hear from CVRDE and not from some one supposedly in the Anti-Arjun camp on BRF.

[d_berwal]

Most probably next order of ARJUN is a serial upgrade call it MARK II or I or III

UPGRADES
- Integrated BMS (Arjun / T-90)
- CLGM
- Active Protection System (Arjun / T-90)
- Laser Warning Control System (LWCS)
- Mobile camouflaging system (MCS) (Arjun / T-90)
- Upgarded FCS

Great list, this is the sort of stuff I was hoping we would hear from CVRDE and not from some one supposedly in the Anti-Arjun camp on BRF.

I am not Anti ARJUN... I love the tank... But i Love T-90 also

[Sanku]

The lack of induction of Arjun in strength in IA inspite of the tank meeting all required parameters.

But the issues found during joint testing?

Oh yes I forgot thats SABOTAGE only, how can it be anything else right?

Sigh......

You had made certain comments against the Arjun Tank and I had not only de-bunked them but had asked you to clarify/expand on your arguments. And as expected, you've conviniently forgotten to answer any one of those. The reason is quite simple; your arguments are all hot air and no substance.

That's because I have NOT made any comments against the TANK itself.

Let me repeat -- the tank is good as per the reports -- however there were issues which are being fixed and as they are fixed IA will take in the tank.

If Avadi can be persuaded to manufacture them of course.

It is you who is running around the town ascribing lying cheating and sabotage.

Simple fact -- there is nothing deep or mysterious or inexpliable about whats happening -- its simple straightforward and visible.

The fact that our Mil-Ind complex w.r.t. tank making is lacking is a fact however odious and that is how things are -- and that is how things will remain unless GoI gives a kick to systems and makes it move.

[Sanku]

I am not Anti ARJUN... I love the tank... But i Love T-90 also

I know yaar, I am merely pointing the tendency of clubbing anyone who points out the fact that the tortured saga of Arjun is not IAs fault as anti-Arjun.

[d_berwal]

I am not Anti ARJUN... I love the tank... But i Love T-90 also

I know yaar, I am merely pointing the tendency of clubbing anyone who points out the fact that the tortured saga of Arjun is not IAs fault as anti-Arjun.

Like Vayu shakti 2010, gov should also show a live 2 hr exersise of T-90 formations in desert call it, Iron Horse 2010... with UAV live feed... lot of T-90 haters will fall in love instantly

[rohitvats]

But the issues found during joint testing?

Oh yes I forgot thats SABOTAGE only, how can it be anything else right?

Sigh......

Care to point out which issues?

That's because I have NOT made any comments against the TANK itself.

Let me repeat -- the tank is good as per the reports -- however there were issues which are being fixed and as they are fixed IA will take in the tank.

Again, which issues are preventing IA from ordering more tanks?

If Avadi can be persuaded to manufacture them of course.

And where has Avadhi ever said that they will not/cannot manufacture Arjuns?

Let see you put your money where your mouth is....

[Sanku]

But the issues found during joint testing?

Oh yes I forgot thats SABOTAGE only, how can it be anything else right?

Sigh......

Care to point out which issues?

No; since you are supposedly well versed with the details, you will know what the result of the last tests.

If not google.

[rohitvats]

..........<SNIP>...........

No; since you are supposedly well versed with the details, you will know what the result of the last tests.

If not google.

Aha!!!......you'd make the PA proud in the downhill skiing arena......but to give credit where it is due, NLI actually held its ground till they could not more.......you've done a real fast exit.....

This coming from someone who knows all the "details" of Arjun saga.......sigh!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Surya]

Seriously

who but the IA and Philip dreams about manufacturing Mark 2 or futuristic tanks without productionising AND deploying the first version and following with incremental improvements??

[Surya]

Like Vayu shakti 2010, gov should also show a live 2 hr exersise of T-90 formations in desert call it, Iron Horse 2010... with UAV live feed... lot of T-90 haters will fall in love instantly


We see enough promotional videos of them zooming up and down but then we see them opened up like sardine cans after a skirmish

What we need to see is it take hits from other tanks (especially 120 mmm non russian ones) and what survives inside? You can get the best crash dummies and put them inside and record it.


Oh and by the way - we do not hate the T 90 - just think its a dead end in tank design, will leave a lot of dead Indian crews and find the Arjun superior. Reverse the numbers and you will not hear fro us.

[Mihir]

Meanwhile; is there a upgrade path for Arjun? Any plans for Arjun Mark II? Shouldnt CVRDE be ALREADY working on the next gen and showing where they can go if given a chance? (A comparison is with ADA's MCA -- as LCAs get ready to operationalize)

Is this what passes for a "real" question in your book? I didn't know that the MCA was being developed as an LCA upgrade. Going by this analogy, the answer to your question would be "Abhay". Or "Bhim".

PS: There is a well-defined upgrade path for the Arjun too, though it doesn't stand the scrutiny of the "is it to the Mk-I what the MCA is to the LCA?" kind.
http://frontierindia.net/arjun-mk2-the-futuristic-mbt

[nrshah]

who but the IA and Philip dreams about manufacturing Mark 2 or futuristic tanks without productionising AND deploying the first version and following with incremental improvements??

IAF with ADA.... LCA has not been inducted unlike Arjun whoose regiment is already inducted. In spite, ADA and IAF are working on Mark 2 and AMCA/MCA/NGFA or whatever you would like to call

[Kanson]

From 2007 i'm hearing about more orders. But thanks for providing some positive news. It always gives hope.

Please read the bottom lines too. I have already given the finer prints.

Another thing I figured out is the decision taking is volatile. I report something one time and then I see ground has shifted.

Ok joseph, lets see how this pans out. Unlike a admiral of BR fame who promised akula load of mithai, atleast i will get u a swiss chocolate, if Tank Ex got selected. Good or bad, let keep the news flowing.

[Surya]

nrshah

bad comparison

They are all on paper and some CAD server somewhere. hazy on funding , design stage etc

Also the IAF has some idea of what the MCA should be and the MCA is not a follow up to LCA - diff category.

Lets see what huffy and tuffy guys have in mind for a tank of the future - 20yr out.


on the other hand

The merkava 1 came into service with some problems - sorted out in subsequent production runs
then Merkava 2 , 3 and 4


so it would mean for the next set of Arjun orders - feedback on the first batch deployment.

[Kanson]

by providing the link for lca, will u accept IA scores poorly on desi products...?

Perhaps if you could
1) First write out what you want to say in acceptable understandable language
2) Explain how the link for lca demonstrates the IA scores poorly on desi products

Also note I was talking in context of Mk2. It is well known that IAF has a firm order for 20 + another option for 20 (which has been recently converted to firm order as well)

Compare this with firm order for 124 Arjuns in 1998 and most probable follow on orders has the Avadi finally manages its way to provide the first 124 after muddling its way through production issues and such.

Sir.....ur the one who first compared the IAF LCA procurement with Arjun. IAF placed firm orders for both Mk1 and mk2. If needed i can even provide the audio file for the LCA mk2 order from Def. Minister. Current Mk2 order is for 5 squadrons and RPF for the mk2 engine issued is for ~ 100 engines. Now where is the Arjun mk2 order placed by IA? So dont compare the IAF with IA. IA comes lowest of the pegging order when it comes to desi product. Both IA and IN were hit by scandals. One is bofors and other is U-209. Now IN is currently struggling only with sub arm. Even with Gorky, IN had a backup in the form of IAC-1 and it has plans for IAC-2 and further. But in case of IA, it has problem with Artillery, Armoured tanks, Anti-air missiles, ...etc. Shaurya is designed from the start as Naval missile and samething abt the Brahmos. But Akash which was made designed for the Army and see who inducted it first, it is IAF. There is no justification for IA by any means for not ordering Arjun in requested numbers. - simple, case closed.

Dont do this number game. you want to compare 124 against ~ 4000 tanks and 48 against ~ 600 aircrafts?

[nrshah]

nrshah

bad comparison

You were the first to compare ---

Meanwhile; is there a upgrade path for Arjun? Any plans for Arjun Mark II? Shouldnt CVRDE be ALREADY working on the next gen and showing where they can go if given a chance? (A comparison is with ADA's MCA -- as LCAs get ready to operationalize)

--- and when same MCA is compared, u say it is bad comparison. U criticize CVRDE saying it does not have any details on next get and gives point of MCA as an example and subsequently rebuts your own statement saying bad example

They are all on paper and some CAD server somewhere. hazy on funding , design stage etc
Also the IAF has some idea of what the MCA should be and the MCA is not a follow up to LCA - diff category.

Don't you think it is because IAF is more involved in the LCA Project than Army in Arjun . I mean what prevents IA also to get involved in the next version /FMBT..

And to clear you, LCA mk2 is not on paper, Some serious actions like RPF for engines etc are all issued, Work of AESA radar has already started at LRDE.....

Lets see what huffy and tuffy guys have in mind for a tank of the future - 20yr out.

And ya what IA has thought of its requirements regarding FMBT...

on the other hand

The merkava 1 came into service with some problems - sorted out in subsequent production runs
then Merkava 2 , 3 and 4
so it would mean for the next set of Arjun orders - feedback on the first batch deployment.

So did Israeli army rejected Merkava 1 because it had some problems? over 250 Merkava 1 were ordered and built before going for 2 or 3 or 4....

Do you know what is the size of inventory of MBT in Israeli army? It is close to 1500 tanks.. An order of 250 signifies 16% of tank force committed to Mk 1 which as you stated had some problem. Compare the same with a peanut order of 124 arjun in an inventory of around 4000 tanks and u will understand the level of co operation and efforts to desi products... Even 500 arjuns are only 12.5% compared to 16% of Israel...

This is how equipment is improvised world over. However, our armed forces wants everything in place and placed to perfection from the word go... shadow of imports over decades...(thankfully IN was first to correct itself followed by IAF... but army is showing no sign of it...)

[Surya]

err nrshah

looks like we are on the same side so I am not sure what we are arguing.


My comments were more on

should be working on Arjun Mk2

yes based on feedback etc based on first deployment and the order needs to go out too. But if no subsequent order goes otu then its not going to happen in a vacuum

"CVRDE should work on future gen"

needs the ARmy to spec out its requirement for next gen

[Rahul M]

sanku ji, I'm sorry to say but your posts are becoming quite distant from facts.

Facts yeah; like IA lied and there was sabotage. All the tests were fraud -- despite the fact that ALL STAKE HOLDERS were involved.


{well I can as well, the details of the issue does make it sound very suspicious.}

Meanwhile The Russians do have a upgrade path to T 90 --> the black eagle.
{this is really stuff. the black eagle is based on the T-80 which itself was considered the cutting edge of russian armoured forces while T-72, T-90's basic version was the cheap low end tank. and did I mention that the black eagle involved moving towards western style protection philosophy too ?
so much for the T-90 iz the best BS. as to how that might have looked, have a peek at the new south korean tank, it's nothing like the T-90 FYI.

oh, and before I forget. the so-called "upgrade path of T-90" black eagle was canceled way back in the 90's and the russian army even denies it existed !
http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20090913/156108570.html}

So tomorrow when the push comes to shove and there are newer generation tanks on the battlefield --> will CVRDE take another 30 years?
{what new gen tank are you talking about ? what new tech that can't be retrofitted if the basic design is good ?
it's the T-90/T-72 design that is already obsolete. arjun's basic design is modern and is projected to stay that way for the next 30 years at the very least. have a look at US army's plans with the abrams for example.}


I dont see a 300 a/c order for LCA, why is ADA talking of MCA?
{two reasons, 1> 40 is still a very big number as far as fighters are considered. remember that is the total number of mirages we ordered for the first 10 years. the LCA by virtue of its category can't replace all fighters in IAF, 40 is 20% of the aircraft fleet which it is slated to replace, the mig-21. it's numerical equivalent in tank forces will be around 700 ?

secondly, IAF, unlike IA has started to appreciate the efforts of ADA/HAL and the need to LEAD these projects as well while the IA thinks "we are customer onlee"

and did I mention that IAF has already commited in principle to 140 Mk2 LCA's ? }

Let us be blunt here --> The Arjun is in current state because this is the best our Mil Ind complex can do in current form --> Finding scape goats with X, Y or Z is not going to cut it.
{you may be blunt, but you are wrong as well.
army didn't allow the production to start before 2007 since they made it clear that they will not accept the tank without every bell and whistle they asked for.
and what scapegoats ? how are the people directly responsible for the fiasco NOT responsible for the fiasco but 'scapegoats' ? please note that I'm not mentioning anyone by name because I don't those details. but the handling has been a fiasco, of that there is little doubt}

And all my questions are related to ONE and ONE aspect ONLY --> WHAT IS THE UPGRADE PATH FOR THE MIL-IND COMPLEX?

{oh please, google is your friend. one would expect a senior BRFite to be at least be informed before SHOUTING in the thread. please cool down and look at this objectively.

FYI,
http://frontierindia.net/arjun-mk2-the-futuristic-mbt
http://sniperz11.blogspot.com/2007/11/a ... roved.html }

Compare this with firm order for 124 Arjuns in 1998 and most probable follow on orders has the Avadi finally manages its way to provide the first 124 after muddling its way through production issues and such.

let's not muddle the issues. the IA was force-fed the arjun in 2007 when they grudgingly agreed to accept 124 tanks as the design stood at that point. at NO point before that time was the IA EVER ready to accept the arjun so the question of production at avadhi doesn't even start. the "order was given in 1998/2002/1857/1971" and all that rigmarole is just for academic interest only. for all real purposes, the order was placed only in 2007.
production at avadhi started in 2007, after IA agreed to accept the arjun. it has produced the tanks at >50/year as per Col Shukla, as compared to 10/year for the T-90 whose production was actually meant to start at 2004 (IIRC).

avadhi produces 50 arjuns/year in the second year of production itself and 10 T-90's/year in the 5th year of production.
but of course, arjun shouldn't be bought because avadhi can't produce it quickly enough, as opposed to the T-90 which I expect avadhi produces in the thousands every weekend !