RayC wrote:
I am only concerned that we don't die uselessly because of stupid equipment.
Is that too much to expect?
sir, that is the
very reason that most people are exasperated by the IA's T-90 acquisition. it is
the 'stupid equipment' that will get our soldiers killed, if, heavens forbid, we have to fight a war with them.
and please, for once kindly do go through my post carefully first before responding with rhetoric.
______________
trust me, we (that is those who are argung for arjun and against the T-90)
would not have been up in arms if it was a modern tank the IA bought, something of the leopard or the abrams category in stead of the T-72 series which
are death traps on wheels irrespective of whatever anyone tells you.
these are the irrefutable facts :
>> in 1991 gulf war showed without an iota of doubt the glaring vulnerability of russian philosophy tanks when it came to crew protection, as also overall protection.
>> a couple of dozen abrams tanks were hit in GW1, there was only
one fatality IIRC in all those incidents. the T-72's crews on the other hand died a violent fiery death almost
every incident when their tanks got hit. and these were by and large the lion of babylon tank (an iraqi version of the T-72)which even then had
better armour than the Indian Army T-72.
>> read this too.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2008/08/ ... ed-in.html
>> a couple of years down the line the vulnerability was again exposed when russian forces were in chechnya.
>> the
T-90 is nothing but a T-72 with cosmetic improvements and carries over the SAME vulnerabilities.
it was originally called T-72BU.
While the T-72 has traditionally been fitted with less sophisticated fire controls than the T-80 (as it was intended for second-line Soviet units and political allies) the Vagonka Design Bureau decided to make the T-72 much more competitive against the T-80 by adding the T-80's fire control system. The result was the T-72BU, although it was decided to rename the tank the T-90 to distance it from the T-72A that had performed poorly in both the Gulf War and to a lesser extent the Chechen conflict.
http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_t90.html
>> argument : T-90 is a new tank.
it is not. T-90 is just a T-72BM to which the T-80's main gun and fire control system has been added.
>> and this is the fate of the T-72BM from the couple of years old war in georgia.
I'll let you come to your own conclusions about the fate of the crew.
meanwhile please remember that a variant of this tank is going to be the spearhead of IA's armoured forces for next 20 years. the soldiers you and we care about will go to battle in this piece of junk.
I can find more such pictures if you want.
the problem with carrying the rounds in turret is evident from the way the tank has cooked-off. and to think we bought this junk at the expense of a FAR better system !
>> active protection measures will remedy any protection issue T-90 has.
again, by and large
false, first of all the active protection systems haven't reached that level of maturity yet and like any active systems, it will also be limited by the number of shots available.
also, tanks like arjun have a much better
basic protection level than the T-72/90 can have by virtue of their superior design. any incremental increase due to an active protection system will give a correspondingly larger boost in protection to the arjun than the T-90 can ever hope for. near misses by the APS for example could well be fatal for the T-90, not so for the arjun. again, T-72/90 is VERY short on space and retrofitting further sensor equipment/more robust active protection systems etc are that much more difficult.
these facts do NOT change even if the COAS in waiting says otherwise.
______________________
and I believe I speak for most BRFites here, are Indians first and supporters of indigenisation second. if the later comes in the way of our defence preparedness none of us will have spoken a word in favour.
and please, stop making this a "you people don't care for the soldiers but only for the desi machines" argument.
I
don't see anyone
> arguing that army should use INSAS in COIN over the AK-47 (because IA has a valid reason for doing so)
> saying LCA should fill up all the air force and all other projects/upg programs should be scrapped. (because IAF has a valid reason for doing so)
> arguing that the 2nd batch of talwar class frigates from russia should be canceled. (because IN has a valid reason for doing so)
But, most people here are arguing against the T-90 acquisition in such huge numbers because the IA has forwarded NO good reason for doing so.
statements like "they know best" are NOT valid arguments.
and sir, if you do care about the current and future armoured forces soldiers of the army, as I know you do, then please go through the
facts (and not just opinions) and decide if it is worthwhile to support the T-90 acquisition at the cost of the arjun.
what if it is actually true that the T-90 saga is due to ego problems of some people in the mech forces and not hard military reason ? are you willing to take that chance ?
there may still be time to change it before we are doomed with this deathtrap.
. Answer is u can guess unless Russians screw up real badly in other issues with us or unkil come here slim chance till then chal raha hei chalne do 50 now 20 then to keep payrolls rolling in arjun factory .