Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

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brihaspati
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by brihaspati »

Here goes the charter of demand from POGWI about how AFG should be handed over to its agents :
http://www.asianewsnet.net/news.php?id=10210&sec=1
Pakistan has conveyed its commitment to the US efforts seeking reintegration of Taliban in Afghanistan, TheNation reliably learnt on Friday (February 19).

Background discussions and interviews with diplomats and foreign affairs analysts suggest that Pakistan has conveyed to the US Special Envoy for Afghanistan and Pakistan Richard Holbrooke its desire and commitment for lasting peace and stability in the neighbouring country.

There has been no official comment by the US embassy in Pakistan over the visit of the US envoy. The informed sources were of the view that it was largely Afghan Taliban-specific. The sources said that Pakistan’s political and military leadership has responded in a positive manner in response to the US-sponsored efforts seeking reintegration of moderate Taliban in Afghanistan, which the diplomats and foreign policy analysts believed, is aimed at concluding the US-led nine-year plus long war against terror in Afghanistan.

The sources said the US efforts for reintegration of Taliban is part of Washington’s plan to evolve an exit strategy for Afghanistan, and in which Pakistan can play a key role being the frontline state US ally in the war against terror. Apart from the Afghan Taliban reintegration plan that has primarily been dished out by Afghan President Hamid Kirzai at the London Conference, Pakistan has also urged the US to take up the issue of reintegration of those Taliban who were not Afghans but belonged to other nationalities supporting Al-Qaeda and its associates.

Among these Taliban, the sources pointed out, are largely those from Central Asian Republics especially Uzbekistan and Tajikistan.
It was further learnt that the US Special Envoy after concluding his successful visit to Pakistan is currently in Uzbekistan where he would discuss these proposals with the national leadership there.

The sources said that he might also visit Saudi Arabia to share his views with Saudi King Shah Abdullah over his discussions with Pakistani as well as Uzbek leadership.
What is interesting is how POGWI plans to use AFG for the future. It is pushing to preserve all the non-state actors in AFG under Talebs and basically use AFG as a storehouse for the Jihadis, once the USA withdraws.

USA just may agree from its interest in using the same pool of "Jihadis" for its expanded covert actions in CAR. Russia, Iran and PRC in the future.

Willingly or unwillingly, will the GOI be forced to get entangled in an AFG war? If POGWI has its way, this means ultimately a move against India using the same resources. In which case, GOI will be forced to get drawn into a war. If POGWI does not get its way, it will increase destabilization of India, as the surplus Talebs will have to be given "employment" and in such a case too India may ultimately have to join a war against the Talebs in their base in AFG.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by Carl_T »

what is pogwi.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by brihaspati »

Is it a mere coincidence that MMS-ji has signed up on an extradition treaty with KSA and formal declarations about collaborating to tackle "terror"? Turkey feels "sorry" that India was not given a role in the talks on AFG? POGWI has Sikhs "rescued" in the badlands?

It is interesting that all the Islamic countries, which are somehow obligated to USA are extending formal handshakes or gestures towards GOI. Is the next step of the campaign against Iran?

Perhaps a pro-open-democracy revolution overthrowing the theocracy in Iran is good for all parties above in the short to medium term. For KSA, in the medium term it means that it attains the sole leadership for Islamism. However, over the long term, there can be a potential danger for anti-monarchy (open liberal democracy is perhaps a far cry) movements to gain inspiration afresh from any Iranian turmoil.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by brihaspati »

Exploring back the role of future terror in India connected to Islamism : do we really have formal acknowledgement by the majority of the Islamist organizations in India behind the supposed declaration against "Jihad" issued by "Deoband"?

http://sify.com/news/The-Footprints-of- ... jffbd.html
Despite these statements from powerful organizations in our neighboring nations, the influential Islamic seminary Darul Uloom Deoband on May 31, 2008 issued yet another `fatwa` denouncing terrorism. In Islam’s view: “spreading mischief, rioting, breach of peace, bloodshed, killing of innocent persons and plundering are the most inhuman crime,” it said.

The fatwa came during an anti-terror conference organised by the Jamiat-Ulema-E-Hind and Darul Uloom in Delhi’s Ramlila Grounds. The fatwa, signed by Darul chief Riyasat Ali Bijnori, has been endorsed by representatives of some Muslim sects in India, especially a faction of the Barelwi, Khankahi and some minor Sufis sects. The fatwa assumes significance because of the Deoband (UP)-based Darul`s wide influence across the Muslim world. After the Al-Azhar University in Cairo, the Darul is the most important centre of Islamic theology.

Unfortunately, the fatwa was not signed by Firangi Mahall and Nadwatul Islam of Lucknow and the most dominant faction of the Ahl-e-Hadith, Jamiya al Salafiya, All India Muslim Personal Board, All India Milli Council and obviously the Jamiat-e-Islami and Tablighi Jammat. Therefore, the fatwa does not encompass entire Muslim theological and theopolitical shades.

`Islam sternly condemns all kinds of oppression, violence and terrorism`, says the Deoband Declaration. However, the next paragraphs stated that the Darul Uloom`s idea of terrorism was different to common understanding. It was not attacks by Jihadis and Islamist fidayeens on the jahil kafirs that the Deoband was worried about. They were concerned more about the branding of Muslims as terrorists whenever any jihadi terror attacks took place and subsequent attacks on Muslims by the infidels.

I quote some parts of the fatwa… “The Conference expresses its deep concern and agony on the present global and national alarming conditions in which most of the nations are adopting such an attitude against their citizens, especially Muslims, to appease the tyrant and colonial master of the West . . . the conference strongly demands the Indian Government to curb those maligning the madrassas and Muslims.”
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by Carl_T »

At this time, there needs to be a control on foreign funds going towards religious education. That has to be the first step in any action against Islamism.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

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http://mmabbasi.wordpress.com/2010/02/1 ... pen-india/
A raid from another direction:
EU pushes to prise open India


By David Cronin

BRUSSELS – Secret discussions aimed at pressuring India into dropping all measures that shield its industry from foreign competition have been held between European Union officials and some of the world’s top corporations.

BusinessEurope, a group representing large companies, has been intimately involved in all stages of the EU’s preparations for talks aimed at securing a free-trade agreement with India. Internal documents from the European Commission, the EU’s executive arm, show that it requested advice from the group when setting priorities for the talks as early as February 2007 – nine months before the talks were formally launched.

In response, BusinessEurope advocated that the key objective for these talks should be the complete abolition of trade taxes imposed by India; such tariffs are used by India to prevent its domestic firms from being undercut by cheaper imports of the goods they manufacture. “Anything less than this [abolition] would allow the exemption of highly protected sectors [from the agreement's scope] and dramatically reduce the potential benefitsto the European economy,” the group said.

The documents, seen by Inter Press Service, suggest that all of the core recommendations made by BusinessEurope were accepted by the commission. Peter Mandelson, then the European commissioner for trade, said that the issues on which the group had advised him “coincide with my own priority concerns” in a letter he wrote to BusinessEurope in March 2008.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by brihaspati »

After the Green, the Blue now Red :The other enemy :
http://www.wvwnews.net/story.php?id=1238
Note that in the vicious web censorship climate of PRC, this site functioned well - only briefly shut down after a "provocative" letter openly accusing sections of the establishment - but then again allowed to reopen. Is the CCP keeping its options open?
MaoFlag.net is not a fly-by-night enterprise but a serious pole of opposition. Organized by the China Historical Materialism Study Institute's Sun Yongren, the Mao Zedong Flag Net Executive Council has been in existence since 2003. As a ploy to stave off repression, it has made a demand to have Mao's December 26 birthday declared a national holiday, attracting the support of "untouchables" like Li Min, Mao's daughter. Such connections also signal important links deep within the party apparatus. The history of Chinese communism has been marked by ideological power struggles between rival factions, all of which have made a claim to orthodoxy.

Apart from demands for internal change, the hardliners call for a return to the "Theory of Three Worlds" of Mao, which holds that the Third World, led by China, must be revolutionized and eventually wage war on the First World -- the West. To this end it has openly supported Maoist insurgencies in India -- long a rival of China -- as well as the very serious uprising in Nepal.
[...]
The Mao Zedong Flag Net Executive Council is part of a network that includes even more hardline groups, such as the International Communist Movement (Guoji Gong Yun), which calls for the co-ordination of international Maoist forces, from India, Nepal and the Phillipines to Turkey and Peru. Another publication in the Chinese hardline network is China and the World, which attacked the government for not living up to accusations of arming the Nepalese Maoists, a plan advanced by Chinese hardliners eager to increase China's regional role. "This line [of abandoning the Nepalese guerillas] amounts to showing red flag against red flag and is a betrayal of the CCP’s declared policy of supporting the people of the world in defeating the US aggressors and their running dogs. Why an armed revolution can not end in victory in Nepal when the same had been successful in Russia, China, Korea, Cuba and Vietnam? Why only China can hold aloft the Mao banner, why not other countries like Nepal can do so?"

While China's Maoist hardliners have "internationalist" goals, they would tend ideologically to view the West as a potential victim, not hothouse, of revolution. Even at the height of the so-called "Cultural Revolution" of the 1960s, Red Chinese support for Western "co-thinkers" was at best half-baked. They called for "support" to the Black Panthers and inner-city blacks who rioted in the period, but no serious Maoist movement got off the ground in the US or Europe. One "successful" Maoist group in the Netherlands was simply a front set up by Dutch intelligence as a finger on the pulse of Chinese government thinking. Westerners like Maoist hagiographer Edgar Snow, who thought of themselves as "loved by the Chinese people" were actually considered to be CIA agents by Mao and his cronies.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

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http://www.hindustantimes.com/business- ... 5241.aspx?

Arab experts pitch for Islamic banking in India : For all those who see no "ideological" connotations in attracting financial investments and tie-ups with Islamic countries.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by Carl_T »

Um..who doesn't see ideological connotations?
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by derkonig »

brihaspati wrote:http://www.hindustantimes.com/business- ... 5241.aspx?

Arab experts pitch for Islamic banking in India : For all those who see no "ideological" connotations in attracting financial investments and tie-ups with Islamic countries.
Banking for terrorists, so this shall bring about MMS's growth of 10% over next 25 yrs.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

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http://muslimmedianetwork.com/mmn/?p=5838
US Special Representative Favors “Friendship” With Indian Muslims
February 28, 2010 by TMO

By Nilofar Suhrawardy, MMNS India Correspondent

NEW DELHI: Farah Pandith, United States’ first Special Representative to Muslim Communities, was here on a four-day visit to apparently “win over” the Indian Muslims and improve President Barack Obama administration’s image among them. Farah has come and gone (Feb 16-19), leaving many questions unanswered about the role such visits can really play in improving United States’ image among the Indian Muslims. Asserting that her visit was “not a popularity contest,” Farah said that it was an “effort to engage with people and strike partnerships to find a common ground of interest for the common good of all.”

Farah, an American of Indian origin, was born in Kashmir. It was her first visit to India as an US Special Representative, a new position created by Obama administration to improve Washington’s image in the Muslim world and also to actively “listen and respond” to their concerns in Europe, Africa and Asia. Sworn to this position last year on September 15, Farah has visited 12 other countries, including Saudi Arabia, Malaysia, Iraq and Kuwait. Her visits are a part of Obama administrations to reach out to Muslims dominated by “propaganda, stereotypes and inaccurate generalizations” about Washington. This is the message Farah conveyed during her addresses in New Delhi at Jamia Millia Islamia University and India Islamic Cultural Center (IICC).

Farah played her part in displaying her consciousness about her religious identity as a Muslim and also in fulfilling the responsibility assigned to her in reaching out to Muslims across the world. She kept her head bowed as a cleric recited from the holy Quran at the function held at IICC. Farah began her brief address with the traditional Muslim greeting: “Asalaam Alaikum.” It was President Obama’s “vision to build partnerships with Muslim communities across the globe on the basis of mutual interest and mutual respect,” she said. “I repeat that it is based on mutual interest and respect and I extend my hand of friendship and partnership with you,” she asserted.

Highlighting the significance of her position, Farah said: “Never before America had an envoy for Muslim communities. This is the first time an envoy for the Muslims was appointed. My job is to work with our embassies worldwide to engage with the Muslim communities and focus strongly on the new generation.” “Secretary (Hillary) Clinton has asked me to engage with Muslim communities around the world at the grassroots level, and to build and extend partnerships through the US embassies in both Muslim-majority and Muslim-minority countries. I have to look at out-of-the-box ways to engage, based on mutual respect. That is my job, my mandate,” she said.

“With one-fourth of the world’s population that is Muslim, of course our country (United States) wants to do as much as we can to build partnerships across the board,” Farah stated. “We can and we want to extend the partnership in a very strong way that will allow us to develop long-term relationship with Muslims all over the world,” she said.

Drawing attention to Islam being practiced in United States and the diversity there, Farah pointed to having learned reading holy Quran at a mosque there. She also tried convincing the audience that she was “this was not an effort to increase popularity of America by a few percentage points.” Nevertheless, while interacting with Indian Muslim leaders, she pointed to Obama administration being serious about working closely with Islamic world. This, she said, was marked by appointment of Indian born Rashid Hussain as envoy for the Organization of Islamic Conference (OIC). Obama’s advisory council for faith also includes Eboo Patel, an Indian-American Muslim from Chicago.

The US government can act as a “convener, facilitator and intellectual partner” and help forge partnerships on basis of common ideas and common goals, the benefits of which will be useful not only for Muslims, but everyone, Farah said.
Now what can be so common in ideas and goals between the GOUS and "Muslims" which GOUS can "convene, facilitate" as an "intellectual partner"? And why does it need to place Indian-"origin" Muslim Americans as spearheads for that "facilitation"?
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by RamaY »

derkonig wrote:
brihaspati wrote:http://www.hindustantimes.com/business- ... 5241.aspx?

Arab experts pitch for Islamic banking in India : For all those who see no "ideological" connotations in attracting financial investments and tie-ups with Islamic countries.
Banking for terrorists, so this shall bring about MMS's growth of 10% over next 25 yrs.
Remainds me what B'Ji wrote on Mercantilism and Mercantile Mentality or something like that. Appreciate a reference B'Ji.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by brihaspati »

RamaY ji, was this what you wanted?
Quote:
Keerthivasan wrote
"Second and more importantly, it will destroy the class of Indians that developed as a legacy of collaboration with British imperialism and colonialism. The obvious strategic weakening brought about by the USA in the long run will get associated to the last remnants of this class currently dominating the ruling elite of India. This in turn will help destroy its hold. "
- Can't understand this Brihaspati ji. Can you please explain with examples?
If we look at the way British imperialism consolidated its hold on the subcontinent, one crucial factor stands out - they were consistently helped by certain sections of Indians to undermine, bypass or overthrow pre-existing regimes and rashtryia systems. The process is complex, with many twists and turns, and describing it perhaps is an attempt at listing the incidents of collaboration over almost 400 years (starting with the first modern significant European enterprise of the type we are talking about in Vasco's expedition to the deep south - where the local "rajah" eagerly welcomed him to play essentially mercantile politics in breaking the Arab monopoly. As far as I know, this "royal house" still proudly displays "gifts" and "tokens of appreciation" from Vasco's side - forget what Vasco and his successor "governors" unleashed on Indians they fell upon, and no one even feels the shame in not condemning this "royal house" for its display of pride in the "association").

However, we do see a pattern. Perhaps the same pattern that allowed the vicious cycle of arguments that led to the presence of the Arab mercantile interests who in their turn introduced and provided the infrastructure for Islamic invasions. This was something like - we were not present in the Arabian sea trade, (or we could not or did not or chose not to or our priests forbade us - does anyone remember the cliche excuse of "I was late for the office because my wife ran away this morning with the milkman"?), but we needed Arabian (read western) products desperately, so we let them come and settle and intermingle, and breed with the locals and set up their religious institutions (although we proudly proclaim our immense and loud presence at the very same time in the eastern Indian Ocean maritime activity, but fall silent on why we retreated from the west) which in their turn served as informational and support networks for later invasions. But because they came and delivered all that we needed, we did not need to go out and enforce our own presence and dominance in their "homelands". And because we did not do that we were not present in the Arabian Sea trade.

Thus we find that a certain mercantile mentality facilitated invaders, and fostered collaborators. I am here distinguishing between "mercantile mentality" and "mercantilism". In the mercantile mentality, everything is a marketable, auctionable and tradeable quantity - your country, your society, your family, your wife, children, parents, siblings, ideology, your fellow men and women, the resources of your land and society - everything. Mercantilism on the other hand deals primarily with what we normally consider trade goods of pure consumption, and in spite of exceptions, typically and normally is not associated with human cargo, the rashtra, or ideological commitments.

The reasons why such a mentality developed in India is perhaps OT. But we can definitely see the effects in the Muslim invasions and the European invasions. Look at how the British progressed in India. Charnock, Clive, were all helped by locals. They did it from personal mercantile interests, which at least for some of them also definitely extended to the "mercantile mentality". The latter group, not only sold cotton or dyes or fine linen, but they also sold their loyalties, their local regimes, and their own people. Part of it was definitely local politics and jealousies. Many non-Muslims collaborated with the British in Muslim over-ruled areas perhaps as an obvious means of getteing even with perceived injustices. But by the same token we do not expect a "Nizam" in the South to collaborate with the British at the same time a "Hindu" Maratha force is also collaborating to finish off a fellow "Muslim" opposing the British. So in general we do find that there is a consistent pattern of sections of Indian society collaborating with an outside invading force to settle old internal scores, or gain pre-eminence over fellow Indians who are seen as rivals for the same status and positions.

It was such a class, including the ancestors of many a later "patriot", (like the famous one who sided with the British against Indians in the first war of Independence, and whose "shining sun" "royal scion" descendant now graces the party which claims to have brought about Indian Indpependence by its sole inititiative and primarily under the leadership of two individuals) who primarily made the British empire in India possible. This not only included elements from the then elite but also middle sections (the service sector and professionals) who latched on to the opportunities provided to bypass glass ceilings, by the British in their need to weaken and breakdown older regimes resistant to British charm.

It is the last remnants of this class (represented by the mentality of readiness to trade with one's own country, preople, society and ideology, if it benefits or protects self-interest), whose primary vision had become collaboration with "white Europe" as a means of survival and enhancing self-interest, that is still in power. They have been forced to collaborate now with the USA, and it is apparently not a big jump for them, because for most of them USA still represents the latest inheritor of the Anglo-Saxon legacy - therfore worth licking the boots. Their mistake is the fundamental error in realizing that the USA has moved beyond colour based identities, has shown therefore that it has found better means of dominating the world and extract consumption value from others - than the old European tribal paranoia transformed into colour based racism. USA realizes that racism itself can become a barrier to further consumption, but the remnant Anglophile class of India does not realize that yet. This represents a fundamental shift, if not a complete break with the old British Imperialist and Anglo-Saxonic mindset for USA.

As outlined in the previous post, USA's attempts to keep the Indian horse in check, will lead to an imbalance of alignment and inefficiency in the five horse team. Because the effects of this will be seen to have come under the mediation of this Brit-phile class, and both will be seen to be an obstacle to aspirations that will initially be generated as a result of "recognition" by the USA - future generations will feel it necessary to discard both.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by ramana »

Brihaspatiji,
I note in Edward Luttwak's talk on "The Grand Strategy of the Byzantine Empire" that buying off enemies that to preserve forces for those who have to be fought, was one of the strategies that enabled the long duration of the empire. I think in latter medieval India's case, the lack of such strategy without a strong central political power is the cause of discomfort.
It is still the case, that even after Independence and consolidation of the modern Indian state, mercantlist behavior is still retained as the idea of India is weak among the people and merchantlist behavior is to gain advantage over local forces with the aid of outside forces within and outside the pale of the normal discourse.

Where Nanda Kumar. Mir Jafar et al did not succeed was they couldnot and did not achieve poltical power or regnency despite their buying support from EIC as the latter turned on them and delegitmized them.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by brihaspati »

ramanaji,
my reply to yours has gone missing. Just wante dto say that, such a "buying off' policy was usually associated everywhere with a shrinking territorial scene. It was always accompanied by loss of territory and populations.

Do you think this has potential in the immediate future to the "west" of India? It can very weel be that ina sense India may lose its "investments" in AFG in the short term. Or the "investment" indirectly could get into use for the enemies themselves.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by brihaspati »

Anyone recently has looked at quantitative models relating threat perceptions and defence expenditure - for India-POWI dynamics? The last model that I know of could fit the regression that showed two different autoregressive periods for the two govs. For POGWI, the threat perception was for a lagged stretch of 5 years, while for GOI it was just 1 year. That meant that POGWI apparently considered all the way back for 5 years at any given year to estimate the threat from India. GOI apparently was estimated to be only considering the current year. I am looking for any relevant studies recently.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by brihaspati »

In our focus on POWI, we are probably neglecting what is happening in other parts of our hinterland. In Nepal, the communists have been on the backfoot within the parliamentary system for quite a while. Does it mean they can consider taking the armed struggle route covertly again? Does it have any connection to the spate of Maoist violence along the eastern part of the so-called Red Corridor?

BD - surely parts of the escaped mutiny-gang of BDR who escaped with arms and ammunition have found shelter out of BD. With the recent trend in GOBD continuing to go after them and the full spectrum of Jihadis as part of their political strategy to clip the wings of AL opposition, primarily the BNPa nd Jamat - many would perhaps find safe havens among the Maoists.

However, the "southern front" has been unusually quiet. Not much happening after the tragic "accident" in AP. But is the remnant of LTTE really finished or erased? Can some of them not be in the "jungle"?
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Opi ... 645141.cms
Lanka Tamils in power vacuum
5 Mar 2010, 0623 hrs IST, Gen Ashok K Mehta,

Although the war in Sri Lanka is over, the grievances that led to the ethnic conflict remain. The idea of Eelam and prospects of revival of the
LTTE — thanks to one-million-strong Tamil diaspora —are on the table.

The events of the last 10 months since the rout of the LTTE appear to be taking Sri Lanka towards an autocratic single-party state that does not augur well for rule of law, human rights and freedom.

By arresting former Army Commander, war hero and defeated presidential candidate , Gen Sarath Fonseka — who won four million Sinhalese votes — President Mahinda Rajapakse has divided the Sinhalese community and politicised the armed forces, especially the Army.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by brihaspati »

People often complain that the Islamist Jihad (IJ) and Maoist insurgency (MI) are given a disproportionate amount of attention by "jingos" compared to "similar violence" carried out by a host of smaller outfits carrying on in the name of ethnic/caste separatism.

The problem with both IJ and MI is that they are quite distinct from the other insurgencies. These are
(a) the long term target of overthrowing the rashtra: whereas others are out to carve out a separate territory where they can "rule", they are usually not ambitious enough to say that they want the entire span of the existing rashtra for themselves. But both IJ and MI aim for overthrowing the existing rashtra and creat a new rashtra of their own.
(b) separatism as a tool vs end-in-itself : For both IJ and MI, separatism is basically an interim tactical objective, a spoace where to nurture the future forces for expansion. For the others, it is an end-in-itself.
(c) roots among the rashtra and civil society: For most parts the "others" have little networking or roots among the majority of the Indian society. This can be mediated by interested groups from the majority but the separatists or insurgents typically do not share common social origins. In sharp contrast, both MI and IJ have strong social roots in majority society, and they are utilized as tools by various sections of the elite because of this very connection. (In contrast remote ethnic separatists are not used by elite exploiters because they know that such separatists cannot have public manipulation value).
(d) exogenous ideological roots : Both MI and IJ have strong ideological roots that take pride in being external and exogenous to Indian traditions and history. This is not a matter of simple historical fact. Both are intensely conscious and deliberate in emphasizing this "otherness". It is because they target not only the rashtra but the society and its culture itself for erasure. Compared to this, very few of the purely "ethnic" separatists emphasize their "otherness" from the local.

Failure to understand these esential points have led to the unabated growth of both IJ and MI. In fact the entire methodology of dealing with IJ and MI has rested on the false premise - that the "ideology" is "good/noble" but only a few "misinterpret" and "deviate" and commit "atrocities". So the solution is 'person" based rather than "ideology" based. There has been no systematic ideological struggle to expose the fundamental nature of the idelogies that drive each - Islamic theology of expansive proselytization, and the Marxist-Leninist theology of expansive proselytization.

We will never be able to tackle either of them if we treat it entirely as a "law-and-order" problem on the one hand, and a "developmental" problem on the other. "ethnic separatism" can partly be controlle dthis way - not the ideology driven ones .We cannot protect the driving mechanisms, the ideologies and their ideologues and apologists in the religious/inetllectual networks and media and civil-society and target only individuals to reach a lasting solution.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by ramana »

Bji, Take a look at this post of mine:

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 50#p835350
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by Carl_T »

brihaspati wrote: In fact the entire methodology of dealing with IJ and MI has rested on the false premise - that the "ideology" is "good/noble" but only a few "misinterpret" and "deviate" and commit "atrocities".

It is nice to theorize that Islam is the root of the problem. What does that get you though? If we say it on this forum, Indian Muslims will stampede to leave Islam and start reading faithfreedom? The government will fund conversion centers, and Muslims will throw out their Quran! Do you see any practical issues with your "argument"?

If they don't convert, we will levy a reverse jizya on them. :mrgreen:

If anything, the better solution is to continue arguing that Islam is being misinterpreted by an extremist minority and control what is preached in mosques, promoting interpretations of the religion that are more friendly to the kaffirs. We can probably say that parts of the Quran that talk about killing nonbelievers are "allegorical". Jihad is really about "internal struggle". :D
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by Sanku »

B***** better or worse and all manners of Chankian thinking; answer the simple question (not on the forum but to yourself) --

What is true?
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by Carl_T »

Sanku wrote:B***** better or worse and all manners of Chankian thinking; answer the simple question (not on the forum but to yourself) --

What is true?
I am not in disagreeing on "what is true". I am pointing out brihaspati's solution on "what to do about it".
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by Sanku »

Carl_T wrote:
Sanku wrote:B***** better or worse and all manners of Chankian thinking; answer the simple question (not on the forum but to yourself) --

What is true?
I am not in disagreeing on "what is true". I am pointing out brihaspati's solution on "what to do about it".
I believe Bji's solution is on the lines of "know the truth and the truth shall set you free"
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by Sanku »

kumarn wrote:
amit wrote: These bits of information provided by Praveen Swami, coupled with the recent moves with Saudis which have resulted in so much khujli among the Pakis plus Hoolbrooke's downhill skiing on the Kabul blast statement, seem to indicate that there may be more depth to India's strategy vis a vis the Pakis than may be apparent, reading the comments being posted here?

JMT
Since the discussion of "use of covert tactics, their efficacy and visible success" is best had here, so.

There are mere allegations. But GOI and the PM selling out is based on hard facts.
The split between the executive of GoI and the decision makers has been played out in the public for all to see.

The error (on the face of it) that Amit makes is that he ascribes the criticism of the Helsmanship of the Indian state to the critism of the machinary of Indian state.

Dont know how some one as perceptive as him (based on his post) can make that obvious error. Must be something else that I am missing.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by RamaY »

B-ji,

That was the post I was talking about. Thank you!

Currently I am reading a book on Chanakya and his Arthashastra (in Telugu). It brought memories of many discussions we have had on BRF on this topic. I am trying to reach the author so I can get permission to translate sections of it on BRF; as I see many similarities in his times and current geopolitical scenario, especially in Indian eastern/western borders.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by brihaspati »

ramana ji,
that is a very interesting perception (in the summary for the book). It strikes a bell more so because I was recently discussing something very similar with a colleague. Formulating questions and directing investigations on those questions is a good way of imposing cultural and ideological hegemony. Those who perpetrate this, knowingly, usually also get mad if people start asking "other" questions. This is the obvious sign.

Problem - is there any way of countering such tactics without employing a similar tactic in reverse?
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by brihaspati »

Carl_T wrote
It is nice to theorize that Islam is the root of the problem. What does that get you though? If we say it on this forum, Indian Muslims will stampede to leave Islam and start reading faithfreedom? The government will fund conversion centers, and Muslims will throw out their Quran! Do you see any practical issues with your "argument"?
Oh definitely there are "practical issues" - but not in the direction you are implying. The practical issue starts with establishing "freedom of speech". It is not just a legal thing. It is about establishing it socially that the "spoken word" cannot be penalized with "physical violence". The fundamental right to say that I find something wrong and unjustified without the whole rashtryia machinery selectively aiding gagging demands. No one is challenging the "secular rashtra" as to why this mighty "secularism" is held to ransom at the drop of the hat by any rampaging mob - for example the recent merry dance over Tasleema Nasreen. Surely you realize why "gagging" laws are forced upon the nation - as without them many theologies - including that of the Communists - will stand exposed, and weakened.

Even though you meant it sarcastically, there are also not an insignificant number from the faith you mention - who would heave a great sigh of relief if they can be less of their "faith". Problem is that the "others" do not extend the support and protection for them to "leave" it behind. Neither are they welcomed to "leave" it behind. We have this deep mistrust and exclusivism from our side masqeurading as "secular" protectionist/reservationist holier-than-thou attitude. Many in that faith personally and privately express dissatisfaction at the public hold of the theologians - but feel scared to admit it in public. It is not just my experience - it has been noted by sociologists too, and even published in some papers.
If they don't convert, we will levy a reverse jizya on them. :mrgreen:
This is old stuff. There is already a historical precedent - at least one ancient kingdom in the south/centre imposed "Turuska-danda" which has been interpreted by some scholars as a reverse "jazyia". To a certain extent, some of the "taxation" imposed by the Marathas served a similar purpose.
If anything, the better solution is to continue arguing that Islam is being misinterpreted by an extremist minority and control what is preached in mosques, promoting interpretations of the religion that are more friendly to the kaffirs. We can probably say that parts of the Quran that talk about killing nonbelievers are "allegorical". Jihad is really about "internal struggle". :D
Yes, that would have worked as a brilliant piece psy-ops if only the core texts and the theologians were not so adamant in insisting on maintaining the "original message". Especially the fundamental text, which is supposed to be supra-human in origin, can never be challenged. If that justifies elements like slavery, or violent raids to impose compliance - you can never really wipe it away - unless you can weaken the basic premise of revelation from a divine source.

In any case, if that is such a sensitive issue - can we at least start with decosntructing the "communist foundations"? [Do you see the real problem here - the inability on our side to pose the real questions for fear it would cause "trouble"? The careful avoidance of all possible confrontations creates the future for more and more confrontations]
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by brihaspati »

RamaY ji, will eagerly wait for the summary!
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by Jarita »

Last edited by Jarita on 09 Mar 2010 09:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by svinayak »

Jarita wrote:Awesome lecture by Rajiv Dixit of the Bharat Swabhiman Trust

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh8QIs9rpD0
Finally somebody has read BRF
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by ramana »

What is the purpose of Dharma? Is its domain in all spheres of human activity?
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by Atri »

ramana wrote:What is the purpose of Dharma? Is its domain in all spheres of human activity?
The purpose of Dharma is in its meaning - "To Hold On"... To hold on to the set of rules OR path for sustainable living which takes care of everybody's quest to evolve and have a sustainable life...

What is sustainable - something which is Environmentally bearable, Socially equitable and Economically viable.

Unless it influences all spheres of life of everybody in community-society-nation-world, the Dharma is incomplete... The sense of Justice, which is central to the idea of Dharma is best when it is universal (both personally and socially). It is the duty of those who uphold the Dharma to strive and make it Universal.

This is the true meaning of " कृण्वन्तो विश्वं आर्यं " - Krinvanto Vishvam Aaryam - Civilize the world..
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by Pranav »

Acharya wrote:
Jarita wrote:Awesome lecture by Rajiv Dixit of the Bharat Swabhiman Trust

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh8QIs9rpD0
Finally somebody has read BRF
Cannot always agree with Rajiv Dixit ... How can one rail against MNCs when we do not manufacture even a simple mobile phone or calculator? First need to build indigenous capacities.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by svinayak »

Pranav wrote: How can one rail against MNCs when we do not manufacture even a simple mobile phone or calculator? First need to build indigenous capacities.
You mean India cannot build these
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by Pranav »

Acharya wrote:
Pranav wrote: How can one rail against MNCs when we do not manufacture even a simple mobile phone or calculator? First need to build indigenous capacities.
You mean India cannot build these
Yes, no semiconductor Fabs in India.

Perhaps it is a deliberate policy?
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by svinayak »

Pranav wrote: How can one rail against MNCs when we do not manufacture even a simple mobile phone or calculator? First need to build indigenous capacities.
You mean India cannot build these

Yes, no semiconductor Fabs in India.

Perhaps it is a deliberate policy?
Atleast few companies wanted to setup in India. Indian top ministers wanted bribes for this. It is the Indians themselves have shot our own feet. A policy to build facilites for supply chain in the electronic mfg was not even pursued. At around 1990 the industry should have created a policy for a small part of this global supply chain. All the system design and chip design are done by Indians for most of the complex analog/digital domain. The next generation system on a chip is also within the grasp of Indians.

A combination of corruption and poor business leadership has created a vacuum in mfg capabilities inside India. India is using this to get MNC inside and for its foriegn policy.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by vera_k »

Why talk about 1990? Semiconductors has had a long line of misses.

Vinod Dham's story
Robert Noyce had even come and stayed in his house in Maharani Bagh, in the late '60s, since Noyce wanted Intel to start chip manufacturing in India
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by svinayak »

vera_k wrote:Why talk about 1990? Semiconductors has had a long line of misses.
Robert Noyce had even come and stayed in his house in Maharani Bagh, in the late '60s, since Noyce wanted Intel to start chip manufacturing in India

I did not want to even go back that late. The reason Noyce wanted India was that logic and semiconductor science was within the Indian scientific community. US built its large base in scientific capability after 1960 during the cold war.
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Re: Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

Post by vera_k »

True. Because of the cold war they got the 1965 INA changes through to get scientists and engineers like Dham into the USA instead of setting up shop abroad.
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