Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[rohitvats]

In the pipeline is an even more sophisticated method —- “lock-on after launch” or LOAL —- for the helicopter-mounted Nag, or HELINA, which can target a tank 7 kilometres away........<SNIP>....Real bolt from the sky if it can be mated to a UAV!

Another thing...If the same can be implemented for NAMICA as well......just imagine the scenario of NAMICA launching NAG form behind a hillock or a large sand dune....the missile flies up along a parabolic path...scans the area for targets and then dives in a top-attack profile .......this is going to put the fear of god into the PA Armored Corps and their Mechanized Infantry.......

[D Roy]

Well it seems that the IA has woken up to the fact that the "tank killer" role does not necessarily belong to other tanks.

Tank destroyers and helicopters can be just as, if not more effective.

The IAF woke up to modern warfare sometime in the nineties and it seems that the IA now wants to become more sophisticated as well.

The top priorities for the IA in the coming decade should be

1. committing full support to the LCH as it evolves in both anti-armour as well as anti-UAV roles. The best way to counter the recent Pak thrust to get armed UAVs is to develop the LCH in the UAV killing role. The LCH when tied to the BMS of Arjun Mk-II can also become a huge RSTA asset.

2. Push for further development and refinement of the Nag family of missiles. if possible get a lighter version developed as well.

3. Order at least 200 NAMICAs.

Cold Start is a great idea. but it cannot simply be a mathematical re-alignment of existing forces. it must entail a oparadigm shift in equipment philosophy and must be a best man ( which we already have) best machine ( which working with DRDO closely will give us) ethos.

Moreover cold start elements should be as indigenous as possible especially on the electronics side, so that no "peaceful" power can suddenly disable it.

[rohitvats]

Well it seems that the IA has woken up to the fact that the "tank killer" role does not necessarily belong to other tanks................

Is that not an extreme statement to make? The NAG has passed the muster and IA has shown faith in the system and ordered it......what other Anti-Tank capability on the lines of NAMICA or even LCH were available to the IA in past? There are very few platforms like NAMICA around the globe......and nothing as capable as NAMICA.....as for helicopter gunships, well we know the story.....

[D Roy]

Yeah yeah,

Well to give the army its due, it did want those Mi-35s to be put under its control. there has even been talk of acquiring frogfoots in the past.

yeah so when you say just 'attack helicopter' or 'tank destroyer', I'll give it to you that I am being harsh.

But I totally stand by the 'need for sophistication' part and much 'greater internalization' of technology issues.

[D Roy]

And taking up the 'lack of availability' in the past part- yes the LCH is different from both armed helicopters and heavy attack helicopters. But it is important that one understands that this bird has the potential to be optimized for a variety of likely scenarios today and must be backed to the hilt.

Now arguing from the other side, I am happy that DRDO has to work with the Indian Army which is a stickler for excellence, warts and all.This has served to put DRDO on its toes in a way that it has started developing world class equipment. I just hope the pvt sector is allowed into serious defence production quicker so that defence PSUs may undergo a similar transformation.

Last off topic post.

[Surya]

where is that LCH

[arnabh]

People,
Nag costs about Rs 75 lakh each. The Javelin is about $80k (Rs 35 lakh) each approx half the cost of Nag....Why induct the Nag and not Javelin for reasons other than indigenous related reasons

[KrishG]

People,
Nag costs about Rs 75 lakh each. The Javelin is about $80k (Rs 35 lakh) each approx half the cost of Nag....Why induct the Nag and not Javelin for reasons other than indigenous related reasons

Range ? Javelin at 2.5 km max v/s Nag at 6 km
That's also partly responsible for higher unit cost of Nag due to the need of more propellant and bigger/better seeker in addition to number of missiles manufactured.

[Rampy]

People,
Nag costs about Rs 75 lakh each. The Javelin is about $80k (Rs 35 lakh) each approx half the cost of Nag....Why induct the Nag and not Javelin for reasons other than indigenous related reasons

Nag and Javelin are not of same class. last page we had discussion on this and the report clearly spell out the details and diff between them

[Rahul M]

People,
Nag costs about Rs 75 lakh each. The Javelin is about $80k (Rs 35 lakh) each approx half the cost of Nag....Why induct the Nag and not Javelin for reasons other than indigenous related reasons

why not buy bicycles in stead of cars ? they are cheaper right ?

[krishnan]

People,
Nag costs about Rs 75 lakh each. The Javelin is about $80k (Rs 35 lakh) each approx half the cost of Nag....Why induct the Nag and not Javelin for reasons other than indigenous related reasons

Order 5000 NAG's and see the diff in pricing then

[Kanson]

Sometimes, price alone is not the reason in going for indigenous products.

[SaiK]

One LCH carrying dozen Helinas, is enough to kill that many khalids.

Assuming no anti-aircraft cover. Helina has a range of 7km.

good thought.. btw, Ramana ji has an answer for that - UCAVs.

Also, most anti-aircraft SAMS will be around HELINA's range. Higher probability of lesser detection, if helos are built for stealth (especially IR signature).

Of course, since this would be near forward area deployment, I guess UCAVs are more useful. But, we need in numbers. A quad pack Helinas driven UCAVs, means we need at least couple of squadrons or more of these UCAVs, with a mission that can be repeatable and relaunch can happen from top of a re-configured Arjun for UCAV take off and parachute landing. But then, the complexity of UCAV handling could be more cumbersome, and it needs more stealthier technologies inbuilt.

Both UCAV and LCH with Helinas could be useful, but a stealth LCH with Helinas, working behind trees and low flying capability and launch would be more need of the hour is my thought.

--

BTW, Namica launching Nags would be more potent than Javelin Manpads, that is only ranged for max 2km odd. Plus, the burden to our soldiers in carrying the Javelins.

Ek Nag launcher is worth 100 Javelins.

[Nayak]

Courtesy vayu

[SaiK]

That is very interesting, A4 is ICBM (12k+,1.5T).

[ManuJ]

The indigenous development of an imaging seeker, a highly complex and closely guarded technology, is the Nag’s greatest triumph.

This is news, and if true, really really good news. I knew DRDO was working on an IR seeker, but had no idea that it was ready for production and integrated with Nag. Is there any other source that points to this?

[Kersi D]

Is this an awesome news? like when Amry is buying 1000`s of ATGMs from phirangi vendors,it is onleeee buying 100`s from kafirs

I would not worry on this ground. The reason is simple; NAG is in a different category as compared with Konkurs and Milan-2T. Milan-2T is to be used for equipping the Infantry Regiments; Javelins will also enter in similar role. Konkurs are for use with the BMP-I/II. Both kind of missiles are therefore, required in large quantities. In comparison, NAG is to be used along with NAMICA platform. Such a dedicated platform will be part of specialized unit(s). The article mentions thar NAG will be inducted with Recce & Surveillence Battalions (R&S), which are part of Mechanized Infantry Regiment. There are only few of these as of now. And hence, the low number. Infact, this abdul had opined couple of moons ago that units like R&S Battalions are the most likely candidates for induction of NAMICA. Another set of candidates can be the Recce Regiments of Armored Divisions, which will use a mix of Light and Heavy Tanks and platforms like NAMICA in their Recce Role. In case IA raises/converts dedicated ATGM units (which it used to have like 19 and 16 Guards, I do not know the present situation), this number will go up.

Quick Question: Are we sure that 443 means so many units of NAMICA? That is a very high number.....I think it is 443missiles and what has not been mentioned is the number of NAMICA Platforms.

Rohit.
Yes Nag and Spike/Javelin are different category ATGMs.

If we already have Milan 2T then why are we going for Spike/Javelin ? The agreement to make Milan 2T was signed barely 2 years ago.

If we are going to induct Nag why Konkurs, which are in similar category. Me thinks a Nag launcher can replace the Konkurs launchers on BMP 1/2. Why have two vehicles with two different ATGMs for same/similar function.

Me think it should be 443 launchers, not missiles. I think 443 launchers is big business.

Besides Hellinas DRDO should work on a tube launched version to replace the Reflex/Invar

I think DRDO has been working on MMW system for a longtime and probably nobody would offer it for love or money. I have been hearing since the beginning of this century that the IIR verison is erady but MMW and helicopter launched version is still under development. I ahd a dirty feeling that Nag too would be sacrificed for a gora cobra !!

K


K

[Kersi D]

I just hope the pvt sector is allowed into serious defence production Last off topic post.

NAMICA was first developed by L&T.

K

[Kersi D]

where is that LCH

LCH has super super super stealth features. It has already flown a number of times. But because of its super stealth features you canot see it.



K


Just joking !!!

[Prem Kumar]

Rohit.
Yes Nag and Spike/Javelin are different category ATGMs.

If we already have Milan 2T then why are we going for Spike/Javelin ? The agreement to make Milan 2T was signed barely 2 years ago.

If we are going to induct Nag why Konkurs, which are in similar category. Me thinks a Nag launcher can replace the Konkurs launchers on BMP 1/2. Why have two vehicles with two different ATGMs for same/similar function.

Me think it should be 443 launchers, not missiles. I think 443 launchers is big business.

Besides Hellinas DRDO should work on a tube launched version to replace the Reflex/Invar

I think DRDO has been working on MMW system for a longtime and probably nobody would offer it for love or money. I have been hearing since the beginning of this century that the IIR verison is erady but MMW and helicopter launched version is still under development. I ahd a dirty feeling that Nag too would be sacrificed for a gora cobra !!

K


K

Milan 2T is wire guided as opposed to Javelin/Spike fire & forget. Cost might also have been a factor in the Milan order.

Ajai Shukla clarified in his blog that it is 13 carriers & 443 missiles

[Gagan]

This is like ulta pulta happening.
DRDO is supposed to be developing tech and then hand it over to the private companies for mass production.

In the case of Namica, as per Kesri D's post, L&T develops the Namica, and now a PSU will do the mass production. Same in the case of the bridge layer vehicles.

[Praveen]

The indigenous development of an imaging seeker, a highly complex and closely guarded technology, is the Nag’s greatest triumph.

This is news, and if true, really really good news. I knew DRDO was working on an IR seeker, but had no idea that it was ready for production and integrated with Nag. Is there any other source that points to this?

Ajai Shukla confirms that the IR seeker is indigenous. Read Ajai's reply to Prem Kumar

[ramana]

The seeker is HgCdTelluride material. The details are known since 1996.

[ankit-s]

The seeker is HgCdTelluride material. The details are known since 1996.

Solid State Physics Laboratory......

[jaladipc]

This is like ulta pulta happening.
DRDO is supposed to be developing tech and then hand it over to the private companies for mass production.

In the case of Namica, as per Kesri D's post, L&T develops the Namica, and now a PSU will do the mass production. Same in the case of the bridge layer vehicles.

ye socialism hai bhai......
things like these aren`t new.

[John]

Milan 2T is wire guided as opposed to Javelin/Spike fire & forget. Cost might also have been a factor in the Milan order.

BDL built Milan costs around $10,000, Javelin is around 75,000, Nag is $100,000+ and Spike supposedly is around $4000 (seems to low).

[Rahul M]

rohit, ajai shukla confirms my statement.

Tushar: The Rs 335 crores buys 13 carriers and 443 missiles. This, naturally, is only an initial order. As the Nag is inducted into service and more units are converted, the order seems likely to increase manifold.

It has an IIR seeker. Indigenous.

The reason why the Nag needs testing down to 500 metres is that the version tested last year had a minimum range of 800 metres. The army now wants 500 metres minimum.

[Gagan]

Nag is $100,000+ .

What?
Tomahawk cruise missile is priced at $569,000 per unit. That's 5 and a half times expensive only.

Are you sure?

[Gagan]

How much does a Namica cost?

[Rahul M]

taking 100000 $/nag to be true that comes out to roughly 10 cr/NaMiCa.

[John]

Nag is $100,000+ .

What?
Tomahawk cruise missile is priced at $569,000 per unit. That's 5 and a half times expensive only.

Are you sure?

Cannot compare anything with TLAM its been mass manufactured and does not really have built in seeker. For example PARS 3 which is in the same league as NAG costs more than 1/2 million.

[Kakarat]

I just hope the pvt sector is allowed into serious defence production Last off topic post.

NAMICA was first developed by L&T.

K

The current NAMICA is from BEL

BEL & L&T were competitors, but L&T failed

[Singha]

BMP2 can carry konkurs and still function as a IFV with its cannon and troops.
Nag is a lot bigger and need dedicated vehicle. a mast mounted sensor pod would
nice to peek from under cover.we can adapt lorros to it.

that is why we need both konkurs and nag, not one.

[negi]

Yes and need to come out with a desi version of RPG-29 , improve upon it and finally mass produce it in numbers , it will be a cheap but highly potent anti tank weapon at infantry level when fired in numbers and onto vulnerable areas of any modern MBT.

[aditp]

The current NAMICA is from BEL

BEL & L&T were competitors, but L&T failed

or maybe was made to fail

[Kakarat]

The current NAMICA is from BEL

BEL & L&T were competitors, but L&T failed

or maybe was made to fail

I knew a person associated with NAMICA development according to him L&T NAMICA failed to meet the armys requirements

[Bheem]

Manportable Spike/gill series, Kornet and Javelin are around US$ 100,000 per unit. Nag is much bigger missile more in the range of Spike ER or Hellfire. Rs. 335 crores with 13 launchers seem reasonable as around Rs. 50-100 crores would be for launchers alone. Then there should be reloading vehicles, ground support equipment, testing equipment etc. I would peg the cost of stand alone unit of nag missile at around Rs. 40-50 lakhs each, while comparitive western systeme should be around Rs. 50-75 lakhs each

[D Roy]

sorry for the late reply,

but a Pinaka here and sub-systems or there is not my idea of serious private sector production. its high time the government started letting the big boys in.

And by the way I am not referring to any strategic programs here, in which pvt sector participation has been more substantial.

[Singha]

negi -we already have the shipon..better to locally produce it via a pvt industry like mahindra/L&T using offsets. being a sealed disposable tube with a removeable control unit, sounds cooler than having to reload into a single launch tube...the warhead remains protected....at the expensive of some
addl bulky weight.

--
Shipon, anti-tank weapon is in development at the Rocket Systems Division (RSD) of IMI. Shipon is a new shoulder launched infantry weapon system based on an unguided rocket, capable of defeating tanks and fortified targets from a range of 600 meters. Two versions of Shipon ammunition are currently in development – the dual mode anti-tank/anti-fortification rocket uses a tandem shaped charge warhead designed to defeat advanced reactive armour and penetrate up to 800mm of armoured steel. The anti-fortification/anti-personnel rocket is designed to penetrate walls, and explode inside building for maximum effect. Other types of ammunition are considered for future development, including extended range rockets.

Shipon rocket utilizes the combat proven SMAW (B-300) propulsion system, RSD is currently evaluating the introduction of soft-launch propulsion, to enable operations from buildings and bunkers. Offered as a low-cost weapon, Shipon is designed to fill the gap between anti-tank rockets and expensive missiles. The development of the missile is in an advanced stage, and initial demonstrations are expected by 2003. A major development effort is focused on a unique fire control system which is attached to the disposable canister. The FCS is designed to implement a unique, real-time cross-wind measurement along the trajectory to the target. Other functions include range-finder, automatic compensation for launcher inclination, moving target engagement capability, automatic cross-hair repositioning and other advanced features, which contribute to achieving hit probability over 50% at a range of 600 meters. The fire control system takes less than one second to calculate and set the gunner’s aiming point to hit a target as far as 1000 meters away. Shipon system weight is 9 kg.

[Kersi D]

taking 100000 $/nag to be true that comes out to roughly 10 cr/NaMiCa.

Not Bad.

A typical Indian Railway locomotive costs Rs 6 - 10 crores.

K