Indian Naval Discussion

John · Post by **John** » 07 Mar 2010 19:32

negi wrote:How do you know if it was IN who insisted that they be built here ? IN is infact facing flak for insisting that Talwars be built in Russia as the former is of the view that deliveries might be delayed if built in India .

Talwar? I do not recall there being any criticism for procurement of 2nd batch of Talwars, besides IN simply excerised the option for 3 more that was part of the original contract. The only controversy was with the Russians changing the shipyard from BZ to Yantar. As for Scorpene there was never any push to have any built abroad, from the start P-75 program was to be built locally.

negi wrote:U-214 ! Despite knowing that the 'family' bungled up big time with U-209s and the Bofors ? IA still has no ARTY and I doubt if they will get any if they insist on Bofors , I shudder to think what would have happened if IN too would have insisted upon the U-214 specially when we heard about teething issues with the sub in service with the Greeks a couple of years back.

.

I do not think scandal is as bad as Bofors and MoD seems to be relenting on Bofors. As for Greece's U-214 those problems seem to be due to $$ reasons (if you have not read the news Greece is bankrupt

)rather than due to actual problems. Malaysian 1st Scorpene submarine could not even dive for a year till the french fixed the problem.

arun · Post by **arun** » 07 Mar 2010 21:36

VinodTK wrote:Desperate step? Govt OKs 2000cr more for Scorpenes

Malaysia paid MYR 3.4 Billion (USD 961 Million) for 2 Scorpene submarines or USD 480.5 Million per unit.

The Malaysian opposition has alleged that MYR 540 Million (USD 152.5 Million @ 3.54) of the deal constituted kickbacks .

Assuming the allegations to be true, the per unit “true” cost of the Malysian Scorpenes is USD 404.25 Million per unit.

India is paying INR 207.98 Billion (USD 4.576 Billion @ 45.45) for 6 Scorpene submarines or USD 762.67 Million per unit.

I certainly would like the Congress party led UPA Government of Dr. Manmohan Singh to allay my apprehension that GOI has not delivered for the people of India a fair deal.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2010 21:45

^^^ Every deal has kickbacks involved and the Govt of the day tries to make most of it as stealthy as possible ,National security is the safest bet to make most money and there is nothing like kickback free deal.

Saying that Indian scorpene deal involves a good amount of TOT and local manuf approval, so Malaysian deal is not exactly a benchmark we should judge our deal.

John · Post by **John** » 07 Mar 2010 21:50

arun wrote:India is paying INR 207.98 Billion (USD 4.576 Billion @ 45.45) for 6 Scorpene submarines or USD 762.67 Million per unit.

Also keep in mind 5,888 crore allocation to MDL is quite low and i doubt it factored in the current delays. As i said when the deal was designed do not be surprised when Scorpene is finally commissioned in 2015+ the price tag is over billion each. With the exception of Gorshkov they will be the most expensive platform operated by IN.

arun · Post by **arun** » 07 Mar 2010 22:14

Austin wrote:Saying that Indian scorpene deal involves a good amount of TOT and local manuf approval, so Malaysian deal is not exactly a benchmark we should judge our deal.

Then there is also the likely inflationary impact on price caused by the timing difference between June 2002, when the Malaysian contract was concluded, and September 2005, when India concluded the contract.

Nonetheless the price differential looks to me, even factoring for inflation and technology transfer charges bearing in mind that India’s Scorpene deal is triple Malaysia’s in size, to be excessive.

I certainly would like the Congress party led UPA Government of Dr. Manmohan Singh to allay my apprehension that GOI has not delivered for the people of India a fair deal.

With so few Scorpene deals, the Malaysian deal is probably the best benchmark warts and all.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 07 Mar 2010 22:14

The price of the Indian scorpene is nearly double that of the malaysian scorpene!

Malaysian Scorpene: USD 480.5 Million per unit (or minus alleged kickback USD 404.25 Million per unit).

Indian Scorpene: USD 762.67 Million per unit.

Anyone knows what the fine print says? Does the scorpene deal include parts for the ATV as is suspected?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 07 Mar 2010 23:07

arun wrote:I certainly would like the Congress party led UPA Government of Dr. Manmohan Singh to allay my apprehension that GOI has not delivered for the people of India a fair deal.

Well I dont recollect in any defense deal yet the GOI irrespective of who is in power ever cared to allay apprehension.

There is nothing much one can do , they will just hide behind some secrecy clause and through some selected paid leaks via media will make us believe its in the best interest of the country , so lets stop whining the Govt is always right

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 08 Mar 2010 10:25

A long-standing friend and an ex-BRfite has requested me to post details about an upcoming event: The Elephant at Sea: India's Maritime Strategy

There is a live Webcast.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 08 Mar 2010 11:34

are malaysia setting up a production line or just importing?

Bheem · Post by **Bheem** » 08 Mar 2010 12:27

Pakistan paid around US$ 750 million for 3 Agostas, one of which has an AIP

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 08 Mar 2010 12:56

Indian Navy to build new floating dock at Port Blair

Indian Navy is all set to build a strategically important floating dock to enable repair and refit of warships at sea, instead of at shore-based dry docks.

It has issued a request for information (RFI) to global shipbuilders for construction of the dock with 8,000-tonne lift capability at Port Blair, where a major tri-service military command is headquartered.

India already has a floating dock in service at Port Blair and the new facility would augment the capability by 2012-13, officers in the navy said here Sunday.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 08 Mar 2010 14:58

whoever messed this up should be punished,2000 crore is not a small amount,this is criminal,think what we can do with that 2000 cr even if its spent on armed forces

pkudva · Post by **pkudva** » 08 Mar 2010 16:48

Well i belive indian Navy and the Cabinet & the shipyards has to blamed,because we have never seen a single project which has been completed on time.
There is a lack of space in shipyards,projects are more but still they get the order. When it comes to private sector we are not ready to award them the order,i remember we have been talking about Amur deal from past 8-9 years by L&T but still there is no news on to it.

GRSE,MDL are all to be blamed for.Cochin Shipyard i will have to be soft as i think they are on time.

MDL was in no way to manufacture the sub, they had to manufacture it in france may 2 and then start manufacturing it here.....now it has turned out into a big mess......which no one can clean.

The Biggest problem is in India Shipyards are not held accountable and take project for granted.I might have been harsh but thats the reality.

John · Post by **John** » 08 Mar 2010 18:39

Bheem wrote:Pakistan paid around US$ 750 million for 3 Agostas, one of which has an AIP

Actual cost is close to twice as much Pakistan refused to pay it forcing DCNS and French government to absorb the cost, at they drew the line and refused to budge.

This is one of the reasons i have bad feeling about Project 17A program, especially if we go with DCN.

ankit-s · Post by **ankit-s** » 08 Mar 2010 20:00

Best part of the article is the following:

This issue should have been sorted out when the Scorpene project — MDL is fabricating the hulls but has nothing to put inside them at present — was finalised in October 2005 itself. "It was a major goof-up by the defence ministry," said a source.

Machili samundar me aur mummy masala pees rahi hai LOL

negi · Post by **negi** » 08 Mar 2010 20:59

John IN was of the view to even build at least first two of the P-17A's outside India citing risks involving modular construction (something still new to the MDL and GRSE for ships in this class ), ok I won't complain much about the second batch of Talwars being imported for MDL and GRSE currently have their plates full

.

Scorpene goof up has long been in NEWs including the goof up on part of Government on allotting requisite budget for the MDL and even getting the clauses for the ToT right in fine print . U-214 has been a Jingo dream but we have reconciled ourselves to the fact that Scorpene will be equally potent

, given the way things move in India it is needless to split hair over whether Bofors was a bigger scam than the HDW , for as long as you have the family's name involved its all the same .

IN has a relatively weak submarine fleet when compared to it's surface fleet hence I wonder if it was IN who insisted on the first batch of subs to be built in India .

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 08 Mar 2010 21:00

IN already has a Floating Jetty at Port Blair:

This is a bigger dock than the one there I assume.

ankit-s · Post by **ankit-s** » 08 Mar 2010 21:47

Gagan wrote:IN already has a Floating Jetty at Port Blair:

This is a bigger dock than the one there I assume.

This is a bigger dock than the one there I assume.

While the above FDN1 is Indian which was repaired at Colombo Sri lanka (15 Million USD), this Giant one (with hexagonal Helipad) seems to be at Dubai (most probably) not India, but I am not 100 pcnt sure, my doubts persist.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 08 Mar 2010 22:27

ankit-s wrote:
This issue should have been sorted out when the Scorpene project — MDL is fabricating the hulls but has nothing to put inside them at present — was finalised in October 2005 itself. "It was a major goof-up by the defence ministry," said a source.
Machili samundar me aur mummy masala pees rahi hai LOL

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 08 Mar 2010 23:02

Courtesy vayu

John · Post by **John** » 09 Mar 2010 04:35

negi wrote:John IN was of the view to even build at least first two of the P-17A's outside India citing risks involving modular construction (something still new to the MDL and GRSE for ships in this class ), ok I won't complain much about the second batch of Talwars being imported for MDL and GRSE currently have their plates full .

As per Ajai's Business Standard article both GRSE and MDL want all 7 to be built locally.

With GRSE and MDL insisting that Project 17-A be built entirely in India (Business Standard had reported yesterday that the Indian Navy wanted the first two frigates to be built abroad by the design partner) they have joined forces, rather than competing for the order. For the first time ever, a project may be split between two shipyards. Admiral Mahli explains, “We have to ensure that the navy gets all these seven warships by 2021. That means GRSE and MDL might both work concurrently on Project 17 A; you might have four built in MDL and three in GRSE. There is enough work for both shipyards.

negi wrote:IN has a relatively weak submarine fleet when compared to it's surface fleet hence I wonder if it was IN who insisted on the first batch of subs to be built in India .

Should done what China did when they saw their SSK fleet dwindling they immediately ordered 8 Kilos which would be enough to cover any short fall till their domestic program gets on track

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 09 Mar 2010 05:57

ankit-s wrote:While the above FDN1 is Indian which was repaired at Colombo Sri lanka (15 Million USD), this Giant one (with hexagonal Helipad) seems to be at Dubai (most probably) not India, but I am not 100 pcnt sure, my doubts persist.

This is indeed in Port Blair.
Please check out wikimapia / google earth. It is located just off Haddow Warf, close to the new warf there.
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=11.6750372&lo ... 17&l=0&m=b

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 09 Mar 2010 09:10

A newbie question,in page 2 of the scanned vayu article we can see war ships of IN berthed at mumbai harbour,which include 5 subs, aircraft carrier,and other war ships.if any surgical strike or surprise attack happens (god forbid) will wipe out almost 60% of IN fleet.is it suggestible to park almost a entire fleet at a place,even in peace time?

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 09 Mar 2010 09:12

Nayak wrote:Courtesy vayu

nayak bhai,is it ok to scan and upload vayu articles,i too can scan and upload vayu articles, but refrained because i was worried it may create any issues for Admins for copyright violations.

markandeyan · Post by **markandeyan** » 09 Mar 2010 12:10

Greetings all, this is my maiden post after months of enjoyable lurking. All this talk about submarines makes me wonder about the fate of our DSRVs. Do we have any on order? According to Strategypage (http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/ ... comments=Y), India payed the USA $100,000 to be on a list of countries that is guaranteed submarine rescue services with 48 hours notice. I guess this means that we are not going to have any indigenous submarine rescue capabilities in the near future other than those built into the submarine itself (e.g. escape from conning tower).

ankit-s · Post by **ankit-s** » 09 Mar 2010 14:52

Gagan wrote:
ankit-s wrote:While the above FDN1 is Indian which was repaired at Colombo Sri lanka (15 Million USD), this Giant one (with hexagonal Helipad) seems to be at Dubai (most probably) not India, but I am not 100 pcnt sure, my doubts persist.
This is indeed in Port Blair.
Please check out wikimapia / google earth. It is located just off Haddow Warf, close to the new warf there.
http://wikimapia.org/#lat=11.6750372&lo ... 17&l=0&m=b

Thanks Gagan.

John · Post by **John** » 10 Mar 2010 05:09

indian navy thwarts pirate attack on Greek ship

NAIROBI (Reuters) - Indian navy commandos thwarted a suspected Somali pirate attack on the Greek bulk carrier Melina 1 off the Indian coast, East African maritime officials and the Indian navy said on Monday.

Andrew Mwangura, of the East African Seafarers Assistance Programme, said the weekend attack about 200 nautical miles (370 km) west of India's Lakshwadeep islands closely resembled those of Somali pirates.

"The location seems way outside Somali pirate territory but the unsuccessful attack seems to bear all the hallmarks of Somali pirates -- three mother ships, two skiffs," he told Reuters.

India's navy confirmed the incident, saying it despatched elite marine commandos, a coastguard vessel and an attack helicopter when it received a distress call from the Malta-flagged vessel during the early hours of Saturday.

"The hijacking attempt was successfully thwarted and we escorted the ship for awhile and she is now safe," Commander Roy Francis of the Indian navy told Reuters, adding that the team had returned to base.

The navy team was not sure of the identity of the pirates and Somali pirates had not previously been known to attack vessels so close to the Indian territory.

Mwangura said the vessel was transporting coal to India from Ukraine, with a 23-member Ukrainian-Filipino crew.

Somali pirate gangs typically hold hijacked ships for ransom, which often runs into millions of dollars.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 10 Mar 2010 13:10

Status update on Naval variant of Tejas.

The prototype of the naval variant of Tejas aircraft is being built for aircraft carrier. The project has lagged behind its schedule due to various requirements connected with the development of a new aircraft.

Deficiencies have been detected in the airframe and other associated equipment of the aircraft. Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is working out modalities with various organisations for rectifying these deficiencies by suitable modifications to the engine / airframe design.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in written reply to Dr. Gyan Prakash Pilania and Shri Lalit Kishore Chaturvedi in Rajya Sabha today.

So another 20 years to go....

http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=59334

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 10 Mar 2010 13:58

Not to criticize the programe without any basis but the future does not look good for N-LCA and more so if the contract for additional 29 Mig-29k's are inked on Putins visit to Delhi, because that will cover the needs of IAC which is u/c and Gorki aircraft complement is already covered.

What's left is our proposed 3rd carrier with a complment of 40+ aircrafts and supposed to be steam catapult and If I'm not mistaken the GoI sent out feelers to the likes of Dassault, EADS and Saab some time back for that. So where will N-LCA fly off, unless it's meant only as cover for attrition.

steve · Post by **steve** » 10 Mar 2010 20:46

News just now today March 10 2010 9 pm . Cabinet for security approved 2.35 $ (Billion) for Admiral Gorshkov. Please post any additional information .

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 10 Mar 2010 21:03

Cabinet clears $2.34 billion INS Gorshkov deal with Russia

The Cabinet panel on security met over the controversial aircraft carrier Gorshkov deal with Russia on Wednesday and cleared an additional payment of $2.34 billiion for the aircraft carrier, rechristened INS Vikramaditya.

The deal comes on the eve of Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin's two-day visit to India beginning Thursday. During the visit, the two sided are likely to sign defence deals worth US $4 billion.

The Gorshkov carrier is scheduled to be delivered by 2013.

The Vikramaditya is currently undergoing repairs and refit at the Sevmash shipyard in Russia.

arun · Post by **arun** » 10 Mar 2010 21:38

So the original price and delivery schedule of the Gorshkov / Vikramaditya as agreed in the Januray 20th, 2004 contract has risen from USD 974 Million to USD 2340 Million and slipped from August 2008 to some time in 2013

.

The original price and delivery schedule is provided here:

COST AND DELIVERY SCHEDULE OF ADMIRAL GORSHKOV

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 11 Mar 2010 04:08

Nihat wrote
Not to criticize the programe without any basis but the future does not look good for N-LCA and more so if the contract for additional 29 Mig-29k's are inked on Putins visit to Delhi, because that will cover the needs of IAC which is u/c and Gorki aircraft complement is already covered.

What's left is our proposed 3rd carrier with a complment of 40+ aircrafts and supposed to be steam catapult and If I'm not mistaken the GoI sent out feelers to the likes of Dassault, EADS and Saab some time back for that. So where will N-LCA fly off, unless it's meant only as cover for attrition.

According to reports by 2022 fighter fleet of Indian Navy is planned to have 135 fighters.
Break up is 45 Mig 29K + 40NLCA + 50 new gen fighters for which RFI has gone out.
Indian navy will require 24 fighters for Groshkov and 20 fighters for IAC i.e. total 44 fighters by 2015.This will taken care of with 45 Mig 29K and upgraded Sea Harrier. NLCA can be expected only after 2015 to take care of retiring Sea Harrier and as attrition reserve. The fighter fleet is planned to have a mix of light and heavy fighters and IN is committed to NLCA.
The 3rd carrier will only be ready by 2020 or later when the new gen fighter will be required.

arnab · Post by **arnab** » 11 Mar 2010 06:18

arun wrote:So the original price and delivery schedule of the Gorshkov / Vikramaditya as agreed in the Januray 20th, 2004 contract has risen from USD 974 Million to USD 2340 Million and slipped from August 2008 to some time in 2013 .

The original price and delivery schedule is provided here:

COST AND DELIVERY SCHEDULE OF ADMIRAL GORSHKOV

hush, but they promised us the moon and did not make us sign EUMA - so it is still a victory for India

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 11 Mar 2010 07:11

sankum wrote:According to reports by 2022 fighter fleet of Indian Navy is planned to have 135 fighters.
Break up is 45 Mig 29K + 40NLCA + 50 new gen fighters for which RFI has gone out.

Three different fighters for the IN? The IN is also going to get a museum of phyters.

IAF ne to duniya bhar ke phyter ka theka le rakha hai, ab IN bi?

PS The above words are not mine, some BRFite is guilty of using them many moons ago.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Mar 2010 18:58

As I predicted many moons ago that the Naval LCA might not see the light of day (operationally).The max that might emerge would be a "tech demonstrator"! In fact,a single-engined naval aircraft is sorely handicapped as stats have shown for obvious reasons.With the ever increasing range,speed and lethality of anti-ship missiles,future manned naval fighters will require a large combat radius,long endurance and loiter time and capable of carrying a heavy weapon load.This is an operational anomaly for so-called lightweight multi-role aircraft.Such types are suitable onbly when the size of carrier is such that it cannot carry medium or large strike aircraft.The ideal aircraft fro the IN for the futre is anaval version of the PAK-FA,which will come with stealth and all the bells and whistles that it is supposed to have.In fact,its design and wide spacing in the middle,where the internal weapons bays are,make it ideal for a STOVL version as developed for the JSF.SWuch a naval version that might arrive around 2017/18 would be perfect for the hinted at larger sized indigenous carriers that will succeed the first IAC.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 11 Mar 2010 19:36

navy most probably be interested in upto 30 VTOL JSF instead of NLCA.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 11 Mar 2010 19:48

Baldev wrote:navy most probably be interested in upto 30 VTOL JSF instead of NLCA.

Welcome back Baldev...but this is it..! JSF would cost atleast 6 times wrt to NLCA.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 11 Mar 2010 20:48

News from Yantar: Tarkash "in preparations for launch", Trikand - powerplant and mechanisms to be loaded till the end of March.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Mar 2010 21:15

Nihat wrote:Not to criticize the programe without any basis but the future does not look good for N-LCA and more so if the contract for additional 29 Mig-29k's are inked on Putins visit to Delhi, because that will cover the needs of IAC which is u/c and Gorki aircraft complement is already covered.

What's left is our proposed 3rd carrier with a complment of 40+ aircrafts and supposed to be steam catapult and If I'm not mistaken the GoI sent out feelers to the likes of Dassault, EADS and Saab some time back for that. So where will N-LCA fly off, unless it's meant only as cover for attrition.

given the timelines I too have started to think that NLCA might not see operational service. while certainly capable does it give any operational advantage over the mig-29k to justify two sets of maintenance crews and spares on what is not a particularly large carrier ? the only factor could be numbers that is if the NLCA can be carried in much larger numbers.

now along with the recent RFP for next gen carrier based fighters, I think the chances of NLCA seeing operational service has gone down somewhat. but here is where the navy is leagues ahead of the IAF and leaves the likes of IA absolutely in the dust, they are still willing to fund an entire program of NLCA with a commitment of Rs 900 crores (not a small amount mind you, especially for the perennially cash-strapped IN) just to build up the design capabilities for a naval fighter even though they know well that it might not even arm their carriers ! this kind of farsightedness is extremely rare, in fact I won't be surprised if IN is the only arm of GOI that displays this kind of maturity.

this knowledge will pay off handsomely when we go about designing a naval FGFA or NMCA.