Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

[Surya]

There is still no PROOF to show how T 90 had issues in 97 which were more serious than the ones seen by Arjun in 2007.

Just a marker

Err till yesterday there was no indication of ANY problems with T 90 except those mentioned by journalists.

Today we are now talking about problems being more serious or not.


My suggestion to Saraswat would be to not bother about the FMBT and any another nonsense if no more orders are forthcoming. Its a complete waste of time. and when the Pakis get a tank in the M1 league, let the Army scour around the world or better yet go to the Americans. Or maybe send huffy and tuffy to deal with it.

And god forbid if charred bodies litter the landscape in the future.

[Sanku]

But the PNC made sure that there were trials in 1999 in India before the order was given; the preliminary trials were as the word says, preliminary to the PNC formation.

Prior to, before

the order being placed.

Is it so innocuous as you portray it? The extract of the report I posted states that IA recommended the induction of T-90 based on trials in Russia in 1998 and CCS approved the same in 1998 December itself. Does IA induct an armament like a MBT based on preliminary trials? Why did it take the PNC to ask the IA to trial the T-90 in Indian conditions? Should not IA have asked for it in the first place? And why was same done 6-months after the recommendation and approval had already been made and given?So much for the objectivity and fair assessment....

It is as simple as that. You guys have to give it strange twists.

Of course IA has to recommend the acquisition (not induction) before negotiation on price could begin and before a purchase decision could be taken.

And obviously the GSQRs for Arjun were NOT used for T 90. Because T 90 WAS NOT MEANT replace Arjun.

If Arjun GSQR tank was purchased that would have KILLED ARJUN then and there.

[rohitvats]

T...............<SNIP>..

Surya, did you get my test mail?

[Craig Alpert]

This is like a De javu moment.....couple of pages back I'd said exactly the same; IA will use the Mark II argument to stall the induction of Arjun Tank and send DRDO on another leather hunt......

So, MK1 Arjun is not all-right? But Tin Can-90 is best thing to have happened to Mechanized Forces? As for the Putin visit, well, what angle can there be to it? That one cans domestic product to humor a foreign dignitary? I guess the message we're sending out is, " Your Excellency, the Republic of India hereby solemnly pledges to buy T-XX tanks so that the great factory workers in Father land don't go without jobs. As a mark of commitment to our friendship, we've just capped our own product. You Sir, on the other hand, will have full privilege to screw us on price, TOT and what have you. Till death do us apart. Amen"

Look at the bright side.. IF this news turns out to be TRUE, then atleast the ARMY will work in TANDEM with DRDO for further refinements on MARK II. As far as the Tin-can's are concerned, they are out there serving their purpose, I'm sure the ARMY (no matter how worst you assume it to be) MUST have thought that the T-90's can stand some SURVIVEABLE chance as to NOT hand New-Delhi on a Silver Platter to TSP and Commie China!!! Agree the prices with the upgrade are more than Arjun, and they accepted T-90's without all the so called "refinments" but they have the numbers, time to bring them up to the capability with the upgrade, and let DRDO/AVADI continue to make the Tank, NON-REJECTABLE so it could/would include every single piece of technology that the ARMY can think off!!!
As far as canning domestic product to humor foreign dignitary, well let's just say its COMPELETELY POSSIBLE. As long as the Swiss bank accounts stays filled, NO-ONE cares about DRDO. And this ain't JUST the Ruskies, the Jew's do it, the Yankees do it and go willing every other country who want a piece of the Indian Pie would have to do it, unless YOU the CITIZEN OR INDIA elect APJ KALAM to be our Defence Minister and George Fernandes our Finance Minister!!!! GOD HELP US ALL!!!

[negi]

Of course IA has to recommend the acquisition (not induction) before negotiation on price could begin and before a purchase decision could be taken. (should we add before TRIALS in Indian conditions unless IA was planning to annex Siberia ?)

And obviously the GSQRs for Arjun were NOT used for T 90. Because T 90 WAS NOT MEANT replace Arjun.

If Arjun GSQR tank was purchased that would have KILLED ARJUN then and there.

Somebody has lost it.

[Sanku]

Err till yesterday there was no indication of ANY problems with T 90 except those mentioned by journalists.

Today we are now talking about problems being more serious or not.

You still have to show problems?

AUCRT report does not talk about any problem

You have arbitrarily decided that there is some problem -- if you decide that Arjun's armor is better than T 90 therefore problem. That is merely your definition. Not anyone else. Certainly not mine or GoIs

[Sanku]

Of course IA has to recommend the acquisition (not induction) before negotiation on price could begin and before a purchase decision could be taken. (should we add before TRIALS in Indian conditions unless IA was planning to annex Siberia ?)

And obviously the GSQRs for Arjun were NOT used for T 90. Because T 90 WAS NOT MEANT replace Arjun.

If Arjun GSQR tank was purchased that would have KILLED ARJUN then and there.

Somebody has lost it.

Well yes, looking at pages and pages after confident assertions by people who can not put up a single data point for any of their claims does not help sanity.


Meanwhile -- complete tests were carried out BEFORE purchase order was given -- FACT -- documented -- posted by Surya even.

Is the above true or not?

And good night boys, and good luck to Arjun -- if the product needs to tar and feather a 10+ year old acquisition to make grade, it needs all the luck it can get.

[rohitvats]

.....It is as simple as that. You guys have to give it strange twists.

Of course IA has to recommend the acquisition (not induction) before negotiation on price could begin and before a purchase decision could be taken.

And obviously the GSQRs for Arjun were NOT used for T 90. Because T 90 WAS NOT MEANT replace Arjun.

If Arjun GSQR tank was purchased that would have KILLED ARJUN then and there.

Brilliant....Seriously, how ingenious can you get? So, now you want me to believe that somehow there is profound difference in "acquisition" and "induction" in this case? Which part of the excerpt is difficult for you to understand?

IA recommended the "acquisition" of T-90 which when approved by CCS (which was done with in 6 months) and post PNC, would have been "inducted" into the service? IA put forth "acquisition" of T-90 after they approved the system based on trials in Russian conditions without bothering to test them in their actual operating environment? Or are you telling me that IA would have trialled the system in Indian conditions after "inducting" it in service? Please don't insult your intelligence and mine by making these inane arguments.

And as for T-90 versus Arjun and the GSQR thing, well , my dear friend, GSQR or no GSQR, T-90 will be fighting the same battles as was conceived to be fought by Arjun. So, whether it fits the bill as per Arjun GSQR or not, it better be equal or better than Arjun. An MBT is an MBT is an MBT. Nothing less, nothing more.

[Sanku]

Sigh....

Meanwhile -- complete tests were carried out BEFORE purchase order was given -- FACT -- documented -- posted by Surya even.

Is the above true or not?

You guys really get into baal kee khal to try and find issues where there are none.

[rohitvats]

.......Look at the bright side.. IF this news turns out to be TRUE, then at least the ARMY will work in TANDEM with DRDO for further refinements on MARK II. ........<SNIP>

It is not about the tank, it is about the mindset prevailing in the Armored Corps top brass...no matter what the DRDO comes up with, IA will find reasons to disapprove it.....as Gen. SR Chowdhury has said in his book (not verbatim, from memory): "that questions were asked about the need for "Western Design School" tank in an army irrevocably wedded to eastern tank fleet.........". The doubts have won over the domestic Mil-Ind complex.....No wonder it took an Infantryman like Gen. Sundarji to do the 180 degree turn in terms of IA doctrine (the famous Sundarji Doctrine) and planned re-organization of IA with very high degree of mechanization....guess, there is only that much one can expect from those whose unofficial motto is, "dash on regardless".

[Rahul M]

IF this news turns out to be TRUE, then at least the ARMY will work in TANDEM with DRDO for further refinements on MARK II.

you wish !

heard of the phrase "being sent on a wild goose chase" ? we are witnessing one in operation.

[rohitvats]

Sigh....

Meanwhile -- complete tests were carried out BEFORE purchase order was given -- FACT -- documented -- posted by Surya even.

Is the above true or not?

You guys really get into baal kee khal to try and find issues where there are none.

And you go about reiterating it as if some huge favor was done? Complete tests should have been done before the product was "recommended"? On what basis was the product "recommended"? It is you who is looking for a silver lining where none exists.

[Craig Alpert]

IF this news turns out to be TRUE, then at least the ARMY will work in TANDEM with DRDO for further refinements on MARK II.

you wish !

heard of the phrase "being sent on a wild goose chase" ? we are witnessing one in operation.

Yes. I have heard of that Phrase before. I'm well aware of the past / current history of the Arjun tank but according to latest news reports posted in this thread, some by the Army itself, states that the unit, which recieved Arjuns, has aslo been working With DRDO to give them constant feedback, so that the DRDO chaps correct these issues ASAP. Things will ONLY get better from here, at least in terms of providing field serivce. Obvisouly the ARMY knows what the present Arjun lacks, and hence they are asking for certain refinements in Mark II (which I know, as you call it a Wild Ghoose Chase to further delay induction of Arjun) but alteast, they have an idea of what they want in MARK II. Once that happens, than it's the decision of the Army General to decide on the fate of Arjun, whether Mrk I/II or ONLY T-72's/90's (upgraded) and Future MBT (non Indain Ofcourse!)

[Ankit Desai]

Obvisouly the ARMY knows what the present Arjun lacks, and hence they are asking for certain refinements in Mark II (which I know, as you call it a Wild Ghoose Chase to further delay induction of Arjun) but alteast, they have an idea of what they want in MARK II.

Craig,

But in the same report it says

In July 2008, the DRDO had told the government in a note, "If the army does not place further orders for Arjun we cannot even amortize the infrastructural investments made by the government for its productionisation, thereby resulting in wasteful expenditure. The Army should place orders for additional 300 tanks before we can break even."

Ankit

[Rahul M]

craig, I don't know for how long you are following this project but I've been actively following it since mid/late 90's and also have access to virtually every press report on it for ~15 years before that.

this is nothing new, whenever the arjun was completed to the army's specifications a new requirement/adjustment/improvement/correction/(insert favourite term here) was asked by the army. when that was done, the army asked for yet another one and so on. this has gone on for much of this projects time.

T-90 OTOH gets inducted with all its "charming" defects, virtually ALL of which were more serious than arjun's and some of which not even rectifiable !
those defects continue in service, most of them persist to this day, it's been what, 9 years after induction ?

to understand the nature of this silly game, consider the fact, at the same time army discarded it's original GSQR (~1980's) saying 110/115 mm gun was not good enough for it, the US army started taking delivery of the 105 mm M1 abrams. the 120 mm M1A1 abrams appeared only after 1986. it was only a brief period in the 90's when the army was serious about the arjun project. consequently it was the requirements drawn up during that time that is still holding the arjun in good steed. thereafter, things quickly went downhill.

[Craig Alpert]

Craig,

But in the same report it says

In July 2008, the DRDO had told the government in a note, "If the army does not place further orders for Arjun we cannot even amortize the infrastructural investments made by the government for its productionisation, thereby resulting in wasteful expenditure. The Army should place orders for additional 300 tanks before we can break even."

Ankit

Well, then I guess DRDO better suck up the cost defecit, and make up for it when they charge the Army for Mrk II or they can always throw in their Towel, and like the director mentioned, they will avoid fighting with the Army by telling them to go and buy from ABROAD!!!.

[Craig Alpert]

Affirmative Dada, not denying the bells and whistle through which T-90's gets exposed with, and the fact that it has been inducted with much fanfare and pom poms! Only point I'm making is, the Army is involved with the Arjun tank project now, and as I have mentioned earlier, as long as the Swiss bank accounts of the correct people stays filled, or unless APJ becomes the DF, and GF the Finance Minister, NOONE in the GoI would be willing to get to the bottom of the Arjun saga. Nonetheless, BRFit's shouldn't write off T-90's as they have been called TINCANS because THOSE TINCANS are the ones (Supposedly) Guarding the borders! I'm sure no matter how much corruption would have been employed by the babus, they sure as hell would NOT hand over Nai-Delhi on a Silver spoon to their aggressive neigbhors!!

[putnanja]

Note that this was in 2008, and army is yet to decide on what it needs in their FMBT!!

India`s future tank nowhere in sight

Despite two years of labour, the Army’s tank managers, the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), have been unable to decide on a suitable design.

Several of these experts told Business Standard that the DGMF’s problems stem from its decision to start designing a tank all over again. Instead of building on two decades of experience in designing the indigenous Arjun tank, by moving onto an advanced version of the Arjun, the Army is going back to the start line.

Experts at the seminar — including Israeli tank legend, Maj Gen Yossi Ben-Hanan, who designed that country’s successful Merkava tank — pointed out that tank design is evolutionary, each design building upon the previous one.

The Israelis began designing their Merkava-1 MBT in 1970; today they have the world-class Merkava-4. The Russians started in 1940 with the T-32 tank; that experience led to the T-55; the T-72 followed, which was further refined to today’s T-90.

India has rejected this well-tested path. The Combat Vehicles R&D Establishment (CVRDE) in Chennai, which has designed the Arjun, is now offering an improved Arjun-2 with more modern electronics. But last month, the Army’s top tank-man, Lt Gen D Bhardwaj, trashed two decades of indigenous design work on the Arjun; he declared that the Army would buy just 124 Arjuns for its 4,000-tank fleet. On July 23, Maj Gen Yossi Ben-Hanan warned the audience, “A decision taken today to build an Indian tank will yield an MBT only 15 years hence.”

And for those 15 years, Russia is poised to fill the Indian inventory, just as it has for the last 35 years. It is learned that Moscow has seriously violated the 2001 contract to supply India with 310 Russian-built T-90s and then transfer the technology, materials and components to build another 1,000 in India.

Seven years after that contract was signed, not a single T-90 has rolled out of Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF), Avadi, where they are to be built. Senior MoD sources tell that Russia has failed to provide India with critical technologies and components needed for T-90 manufacture.

Russia has not been sued for this breach of contract; instead it has been rewarded. Last December, India ordered 347 more fully-built T-90s. A senior MoD officer dealing directly with purchases points out that this will delay the indigenous manufacture of T-90s even further, since the Russian plant cannot transfer any components or materials until it meets the fresh Indian order.

Meanwhile, the 310 T-90s, which have been delivered by Russia and introduced into service, are not battle worthy. The crucial Fire Control System (FCS), through which the tank fires at the enemy, has failed to function in Indian summers. An obliging Russian industry offered to sell India “tank air conditioners”, though no other tank in our inventory needs or uses air-conditioning.

The Russian air-conditioners were put through trials, during which the tank driver fainted from heatstroke. Now the MoD has floated a global tender for air-conditioning the T-90s.

[Rahul M]

....... or they can always throw in their Towel, and like the director mentioned, they will avoid fighting with the Army by telling them to go and buy from ABROAD!!!.

if this news is true, then that would be the way. it's no use wasting wades of public money on some whim by a DGMF who will buy inferior foreign goods in stead. we just need to reconcile to the fact that IA (unlike IAF and IN)will always be armed by russia/sweden/america/israel but not India.

I'm sure no matter how much corruption would have been employed by the babus, they sure as hell would NOT hand over Nai-Delhi on a Silver spoon to their aggressive neigbhors!!

reality is sometimes very painful. I'm NOT saying that this is a corruption issue but from whatever little I know from interactions with various people, I see no cause for that kind of faith.

[negi]

Surya mail sent.

[negi]

Rahul btw do you have details on the first batch of T-90s (Iirc 40 in total) which arrived in December 2001 ? Were these upto the same specs as the one's which were trialed in 98 in Russia or came with the V-92 engine and the French sight ? Also need to check about the T-90 being put to trials in 99 in terms of specs.

I am sure in 98 there was no 1000HP and Catherine TI sight on the T-90s , moreover we are yet to hear more on Refleks being fired from T-90 after issues were reported with the trails (iirc changes required as missile was only validated on the T-80 )

[Rahul M]

negi, will have to check. depending on my weak memory, catherine TI wasn't there, not sure of the engine. btw didn't the t-series still have the infrared searchlight in those days ?

[SaiK]

Q: If the issue of T90 is so messed up, why is that PAC not come out anything against IA /MoD yet?

[d_berwal]

..............sir ji desert is not our main area.. where do u see desert in Punjab & J&K ?

Given the constraint of discussing such a topic on public forum, can you explain the above? What ever little I understand about this topic, the above is contrary to popular wisdom.

just the fact for the gurus like u compare & check out MBT concentration from akhnur to bhatinda.... in terms of their operational deployment U might get the answer... Desert is just one of the area.

[sivabala]

Well if U guys have missed this, it looks like, the Indian Army hates Arjun

[putnanja]

Well if U guys have missed this, it looks like, the Indian Army hates Arjun

This has been posted and the debate is still going on. Check the previous page

[SaiK]

I alsoooo think, all this is a smear campaign (including the most accepted mil blog sites) direct or indirect, instead of reporting about Arjun vs. T90 face off, are entirely taking a different direction and not just help threads in BR derail, but making us all idiots to listen that Arjun is trashed by IA.

When will this end, and Arjun gets his due respect, and move on to Arjun Mk2 faster.

[RayC]

just the fact for the gurus like u compare & check out MBT concentration from akhnur to bhatinda.... in terms of their operational deployment U might get the answer... Desert is just one of the area.

Without discussion the issue because of obvious reasons, yet the u/m issues should help.

How far are the Shivalik hills from the IB in the Punjab?

How far are the hills behind Akhnur?

How narrow is thus the corridor to J&K?

That will give the answer.

Also, where is the Pakistan Army Reserve North? And why are they there?

That will reinforce the answer.

[karan_mc]

Since it is now official ( almost ) we have biggest numbers of ceremonial/exhibition tanks i bet they will never be used in army any way , ,10 years down the line Army will start retiring them (lack of parts,expensive to maintain,problems in tank blah blah) i think we should suggest possible places where this tanks can be kept for public display in future so people like me can pay homage to the Great Indian Tank which was killed by its own Army

[RayC]

Any reasons found out by Shiv Aroor or Shukla as to why Arjun has been put on hold?

Has it really been put on hold?

I did not find it on the news electronic or print.

If it were, then surely the TV channels would go all guns blazing.

[Surya]

Saik

Sadly it will not

If Arjun is killed - there will be no mk2 -forget the bull peddled by the egomaniacs (or worse) in charge of the armour procurement

You have to incrementally improve - no two ways about it

What will mean is an exodus of the skills built painstakingly, towards the private sector (many are already wondering what the hell they are doing this for)?

And for the forseeable future we will be equipped from a variety of garbage T-XX whatever and will keep on ordering foreignn ammo and overstocking on expensive non Russian TIs and electornics to keep them battleworthy.

Then when things do not work they will run to DRDO, Tatas , L&T and invoke their patriotism to make this garbage work.

I was rereading the AUtocar review and it breaks your heart to see a far superior product being consigned to the dustbin thanks to vested interests.

[niran]

Since it is now official ( almost ) we have biggest numbers of ceremonial/exhibition tanks i bet they will never be used in army any way , ,10 years down the line Army will start retiring them (lack of parts,expensive to maintain,problems in tank blah blah) i think we should suggest possible places where this tanks can be kept for public display in future so people like me can pay homage to the Great Indian Tank which was killed by its own Army

It is still "Unofficial" as opposed to "Official" will remain so until the order in triplicate
is issued, and please do remember Mistah Error is the one and same who in his
"me all knowing" fashion was the first to declared Arjun torsion-bar broke,that after
repeated corrections by knowledgeable people, he stood by himself, saying that it came from some unnamed staff officer who saw it with his own eyes.

[SaiK]

If things get too bad, we'd have to throw the hammer in to the thoughts of creating a new regiment that caters to indigenous product uses and under direct ranks and c & c with vested interests from our beloved army's bad guys company (drdo boys), with an integrated command controlled only by chief of staff.

Then it would be all drdo boys vs. our ever russkier friends to see who betters in smashing al paki tanks and have better battlefield management setup. either our boys behave or we would have start a "new India company" regiment.

and sorry, there would be budget cuts as well, due to our new company needs.

[Vivek K]

This will never end till the hold of foreign vendors is not restricted over IA procurement and also transparency is brought in. Now let us wait for INSAS to also be kicked out. I wonder how long NAG will last with the IA.

[putnanja]

Institutional knowledge is very important, and it is passed on from person to person. Once people involved with Arjun design and development start retiring, it will mean a big loss. Not everything will be documented.

And it looks like the IA wants to junk Arjun and start from a clean slate, which even the Israelis have advised against. It will take at least 10-15 years to build a new tank, and the army is yet to still firm up GSQR on what it expects from it. It is already planning on inducting T-90s till 2020.

I guess the army is yet to understand the importance of having an indigenous military industry complex, and the concept of partnering with the development agency.

Instead of returning unused funds every year, ordering the initial versions of Arjun, Pinaka etc and working with DRDO to fine-tuning it would have made more sense. The unused funds won't come back, and the army is poorer for it. Ordering indigenous equipment wouldn't have caused any CAG/corruption inquiries and delays either!

[Surya]

development start retiring,

Not in today's world. They will be quitting way before that

[Vivek K]

So we cannot buy a tank we made to our own specs while we send taxpayer money overseas for a tank built for fighting in Europe. All the cr$p offered in defense of this indefensible decision like the terrain and positioning of pakistani strike corps was not kept in mind while writing GSQRs?

Well, the Russians are laughing all the way to the bank and we are made the laughing stock of the world where our DGMF screeches from every roof top "Arjun is a Dabba".

Reminds me of Mamta Banerjee kicking TATA out of WB for the Nano.

Foreign vendors have such a stgranglehold on our procurement folks. To keep our forces fighting fit we must kowtow to their demands and will therefore never be able to execute an independent, effective, foreign policy. Also, We have to keep giving out contracts every few years to keep foreign suppliers happy since people like our wise DGMF will not let domestic industry enter into the game.

Why then buy even the 124 is what I would like to know? Why not scrap every last tank and reuse the metal to build the fearsome T-90 that cannot fight in the desert heat.

[Sanku]

Guys, I think we should wait for MoD to make a statement before we say anything.

In any case things dont happen very fast about procurement decisions in MoD.

I would recommend that instead of filling pages after pages with angst filled rants, and turning this into another MRCA thread, we wait and watch and debate only significant data points instead of every random speculation which keeps getting thrown up.

Right now we have NO INFO of what IA actually wants in terms of next Gen tanks. We have also no clue as to what are the last tests results in terms of what IA figured out.

Finally Arjun Mk II may be just like LCA mk II; same tank with a few components like engine changed -- no need to get hyper just yet.

[aditp]

Good or bad, let keep the news flowing.

chocolate will be fantastic. There is a lot of good news that is going to flow. I am working on confirmations. After that more chocolates can flow.

So what's the credibility of the news in Arroor's blog. Has the army really capped the Arjun at 124?

[RKumar]

If this news is true ... then it is a black day for India. It may seem over-statement, but it will put India at least 5 yrs behind in defence related development. Who worked really hard for years to make it success, will lose their heart and discouraged to no end. There will be no Arjun Mk2 or Arjun FMBT.

I hope the common sense prevails and IA, MoD act wisely. Life will be easy if they would believe in small steps and continues improvement.

Evolution is invention, explosion is destruction.

Jai Hind!!