MRCA News and Discussion

bodhi · Post by **bodhi** » 11 Mar 2010 10:44

sumshyam wrote:Eurofighter Flight Simulator Demo at Defexpo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWwhZKRy5CA

Lockheed Martin's F-16 simulator

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XIMrhGBpL4

The pilot keeps looking over the screen for tactical displays....where will those be in the aircraft. are they the same ones seen on the MFDs?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Mar 2010 16:59

Oui K! We might get a deal where we have an aircraft,etc.,but no weapons,like the Scorpene deal where mere hulls seem to have have been ordered forgetting their insides! Anyway,the main point is regardless of the ultimate price per aircraft,that the prices shown indicate the "scale" of price of each contestant.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Mar 2010 17:26

^^^ One of the points that I would like to bring out irrespective of the merits or cost of each aircraft/deal in the competition is our ability to use these aircraft in combat , if the war is sudden ,short ( 1 - 2 weeks ) sanctions by the OEM will not affect our ability to exploit fully the weapon system potential in war.

But if the war is prolonged or there is a certain movement towards imminent war ,the US will certainly apply sanctions which perhaps they are duty bound by law or depending how the US president thinks how "just" the war is.

But its the ability of US to apply similar pressure on European countries and if not a complete sanction then go slow approach is what will hurt is not only during the war but perhaps even years after that if not decades. The Europeans under US pressure will just decided to go slow in supplying spares,weapons and other stuff needed to sustain a war or maintain the aircraft post that period.

In that sense Russia is less susceptible to such pulls and pressures from US and is least likely to sanction us during the war or post that period.

Unless we can put this and make it into a legally binding agreement not to sanction the aircraft or its weapons system/spares if we opt for US or European fighter ,the threat of sanctions and most importantly the impact of such a sanctions on weapons system purchased will always be there , the US may use it as a pressure point on any future GOI to not to go offensive.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 11 Mar 2010 19:04

Austin,

I infer u mean the concerns regarding EU succumbing to US pressure for go slow is equally (rather more than equally) applicable to US also...unless i am reading wrong.

Besides, You forgot about malware, bugs, Trojans and what not built in the system that may also affect us in a short duration war. Also, war never starts abruptly. It is cumulative results of events of past which may be in many months. for eg 1971 war started in dec although symptoms of the same were evident many months before.

Also, there cannot be any biding agreement on sanction proof products. Let us not be unrealistic. And what if US shows m*dd*e finger to the agreement (if at all done) in the time of crisis... Will the subsequent compensation recd (if at all US compensates us) do good to the damage done?

chiru · Post by **chiru** » 11 Mar 2010 22:05

nd what if US shows m*dd*e finger to the agreement (if at all done) in the time of crisis...

plz forgive me the post might be irrelevant if a us fighter is selected itll be atthara and not the solah and if we are sanctioned in a war against pukes lets just send a couple of SH to the chinks as they are desperately in need of carrier fighters (of course without the electronics ) and end our bad blood with them once and for all

and we will loose a larger enemy hence we can devote all our time to our long lost brithers

and if we had a small skirmish wid china us will be jumping in its pajamas as it wants to contain china more than ever before

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 11 Mar 2010 23:47

SaiK wrote:I am sure, MoD wouldn't bend over for time, and ask them to send an NG later before we decide the final 3 .

But MoD would do it for MiG 35

K

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 12 Mar 2010 00:02

WRT the concern that the US may try to stop the movement of critical parts and technologies to India during a conflict situation. While I do think that may be realisitic, I thought the MMRCA deal requires full ToT, so would that concern necessarily be a worry if everything is able to be manufactured in India?

prabir · Post by **prabir** » 12 Mar 2010 02:02

Dirty tricks like embedded software code that can be remote activated and cause equipment to perform below expectations can be expected from a US made equipment.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 12 Mar 2010 04:00

Saab receives order for Gripen capability boost

The order also includes other measures to further reduce the operating costs, based on experience gathered from more than 130,000 flight hours. Also included is integration of new weapons, and the existing radar is gaining an increased range along with new functions. Improvements are also being introduced to reduce the noise and emissions from test runs during engine maintenance.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 12 Mar 2010 14:39

$11 bn in the balance, a no-show by Gripen fighter

the reason maybe evident from this old news
[youtube]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/EadnS-tTjUY&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/EadnS-tTjUY&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/youtube]
one more related video from defexpo. It seems SAAB gave up on MRCA competition,and is now diversifying on other business opportunities in India,.
[youtube]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8VTMGoBGokg&co ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8VTMGoBGokg&co ... edded&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Mar 2010 14:45

If so,then screw the US every which way in return! Why should we accept inferior US packages so that its lover-boy Pak can have the US tech advantage over India? It is becoming clearer by the day that the US plans to sabotage the MMRCA requirement of the IAF by delaying approval of US tech transfers and preventing its allies from doing so.With the help of 5h-columnists within India's security establishment,it hopes to leverage the deal in its favour turning India into anothr Egypt,impotent and unable to say boo to a goose!

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 12 Mar 2010 15:20

I think all the delays and problems associated with the MRCA competition(and in all future ventures) is because of only one problem and that is usa,. we are letting them compete in this, is the real cause behind all the shackles .
IAF should ask them if they will give the full TOT on their aircrafts in plain YES or NO.If YES ,let them compete if NO then kick them out,. there is no point in wasting time on amriki nakhra .

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 12 Mar 2010 17:42

Samay wrote:I think all the delays and problems associated with the MRCA competition(and in all future ventures) is because of only one problem and that is usa,. we are letting them compete in this, is the real cause behind all the shackles .
IAF should ask them if they will give the full TOT on their aircrafts in plain YES or NO.If YES ,let them compete if NO then kick them out,. there is no point in wasting time on amriki nakhra .

I don't see how the US has delayed the process, atleast at this stage. Once the trials are comple (should be this month) then the IAF will trim down the list to 3 aircrafts and I expect the SH to be in the race. After that, simultanious discussions will begin with all 3 suppliers and there will be an order of priority based on IAF requirements and what the supplier is willing to offer and on what price.

It is at this stage that US congress would pose the real delay, not now and if they insist on transferring only limited technology for APG 79, weapons, not revealing source codes etc., then as you said. WE DUMP THEM, not before that

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Mar 2010 17:58

Philip, can't screw US, when you use Gripen.

kit · Post by **kit** » 12 Mar 2010 18:27

Washington is apparently turning their older F16 s into QF16 s for aerial target practise Earlier it was the F 4 phantoms

http://www.janes.com/news/defence/jdw/j ... _1_n.shtml

chiragAS · Post by **chiragAS** » 12 Mar 2010 18:46

Its not just the embedded software stuff. The custom built ASIC chips on board are designed specifically to hurt the user if they wish so. no matter what you say they won't sell you this tech.
even though deisgnning ASIC chips is not a big deal for India, its the manufacturing thing which is a problem.
the tech they now use is 22 nanometer which is jealously guarded by the likes of Intel and IBM.
and we have not even started to setup such plants in India. (hope DRDO is working on it)

Its a risky proposition to go with US fighter jets. when they denied source code to UK on JSF and it took their PM to resolve it,
you can understand there is no hopes for us.

But do we have any choice? the way GOI is licking their boots, the way pakis are getting armed bu US, the control US has on european firms directly and indirectly. we will end up with the teens.
bad days ahead.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 12 Mar 2010 19:36

The real problem for all the vendors except the two US fighters is the RFP benchmarks that the IAF has set. If you notice, both the ouiropeans and the russians were going along at a nice and easy pace with AESA amongst one of the many leading edge techs that IAF's demanded.

The manufacturers have accelerated their own developments to meet the RFP, the Gripen NG is the prime example of this, where the RFP made a better aircraft, which the Swedish Airforce is gung ho about. Even if the Gripen does not win MRCA, the NG will end up being a much better aircraft, and will surely have several more export orders, than they would have had with the D versions.

Massa has the edge in that their tech is already developed and flying. The are pissed at Saab because the Gripen's offer set the bar up much higher, and saved the IAF at least one major upgrade - business opportunity lost for the manufacturers. One must recognize what the Gripen has done for the MRCA RFP.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 12 Mar 2010 22:34

Carl_T wrote:WRT the concern that the US may try to stop the movement of critical parts and technologies to India during a conflict situation. While I do think that may be realisitic, I thought the MMRCA deal requires full ToT, so would that concern necessarily be a worry if everything is able to be manufactured in India?

Nope, even with full ToT, there are lots of items that will be sourced directly from US. Items like mission computers, FCS, even some structures etc will have to be imported. You would be surprised to know that even some small items like particular rubber seals etc might be imported because it is not cost effective to produce them in small quantities here, and the fact that the rubber needs to have specific properties. In fact, items like these were difficult to source from erstwhile USSR after its break-up!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 13 Mar 2010 02:21

Gripen NG progresses

article link

We are now testing all the tactical systems, such as the AESA radar and the new communications system. The test programme is very extensive, and the unusually harsh cold and snowy winter here in Sweden has challenged the programme schedule but we are now quickly catching up, says Mattias Bergström, the Gripen NG Demonstrator project manager.

We have finished, and successfully verified, the flight tests of the electro-optical Missile Approach Warning System (MAW) and the new fuel system with larger internal fuel tanks.

The Gripen NG is the next generation of the Gripen fighter, which is in service with the air forces of Sweden, the Czech Republic, Hungary and South Africa. It is also ordered by the Royal Thai Air Force and is flown by the Empire Test Pilots School, ETPS, in the UK.

The Gripen NG demo certainly is a stunning looking fighter..I prefer this plain gray scheme to the regular Flygvapnet scheme that is used on other Gripens too (except for South Africa's diamondback pattern, which is really lovely).

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Mar 2010 05:41

all of the Gripen NG AESA radar information available only talk about swashplate angles and none about its range, tracking and targeting capability and what target RCS?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Mar 2010 06:59

yeah - would be a more cost effective choice and better than a late model F16 but subject to same unkil
sanctions. if unkil sanctions are deemed a risk we can take, then gripen is preferable over f18/f16 as we'd get
more headroom on the EW aspects and weapons which with unkil is a sealed black box.

HarishV · Post by **HarishV** » 13 Mar 2010 11:47

even though deisgnning ASIC chips is not a big deal for India, its the manufacturing thing which is a problem.

Correction - It definitely IS a big thing. The one fab that India has works on outdated technology.

the tech they now use is 22 nanometer which is jealously guarded by the likes of Intel and IBM.
and we have not even started to setup such plants in India. (hope DRDO is working on it)

Fab-ing isn't cut out for everyone - when the 100 odd chips get done for the DRDO, then what is going to happen to the fab? When you are going to make ASIC's in the order of just ten's of hundreds to tens of thousands you don't go about breaking ground for a new fab facility without looking at the economics.
There are plenty of semicon fabs - TSMC, Chartered, etc. who'd bend over backwards to help get your chip done just use their technology libraries and give them the gds2 - for a price - and yes it doesn't make sense for the DRDO to re-invent the wheel.

I still say go buy off the shelf from whoever bids the best - friends or no friends. Unless you are going to build in numbers there is no point in doing things from scratch. Which is probably a good reason for most delays plaguing Indian defence.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Mar 2010 14:22

Yes,though I've been thorn in the US flesh fro its attitude,objectively,both countries can benefit from some sensible business dealign in the defence sphere.Howevr,the US behaves like a control frak,wanting to control the globe and right now especially the Indian sub-continent.It will therefore sell India just a teeny-weeny bit more perhaps that it will sell/give Pak and "plug the gaps" in Pak's weaknesses such as naval frigates,LRMP aircraft,Harpoon anti-ship missiles and upgaded F-16s with AMRAAMs.It is the cretinous and obtuse mindset of the MMS regime-and that is the most charitable that one can say about it on this issue,otherwise we will have to fear something more sinister,that has allowed the US to poke its butt in and defecate upon India's defence.

Wickberg · Post by **Wickberg** » 13 Mar 2010 18:25

Marten wrote:Forgive me for the newbie question: Won't we stock spares worth at least a year's operation? I mean no sanctions will last that long, plus we would expect Sweden to hold enough stocks and spares for themselves, so would sanctions really be an issue wrt Gripen? For the record, my money is on the Tiffy with the Shornet winning the IN tender. We're likely to be the only country with both MIGs and Shornets on one deck!

I´ll guess that depends on what kind of war we are talking about. I know Sweden during the cold war stock piled things like oil and such to last for 60+ days in case of full out war world 3 when we would had been completely shut off of any resupplies from abroad. A year of stock spares and ammo during a full out war seems like a long period of time.

(I have BTW seen some of these oil depots that are under ground, under mountains. They are pretty amazing in size..)

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Mar 2010 19:15

“The stated concern was that Western technology in Israeli hands would make its way to the Indians,” one Israeli official said.

What was strange with the American request was that Boeing and Lockheed Martin – the two largest US defense contractors – are also competing for the Indian deal. For this reason, Israeli officials said it was more likely that the Americans were concerned that if IAI competed for the deal with Saab, it would force the American companies to lower their prices.
http://ericpalmer.wordpress.com/2009/07 ... ia-israel/

Should Gripen have any non-compete laws binding with the Khans, then why did they even submit to RFI/RFP?

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 13 Mar 2010 19:16

A nice presentation on gripen
http://saab.picsearch.tv/?cat=&q=&bandw ... GcQ&page=1
seems like gripen offers most as an integrated platform..........?

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 14 Mar 2010 14:20

x post

'No slowdown in Indo-US relations

- Interview with W James (Jim) McNerney, Jr, chairman, president and chief executive officer of The Boeing Company.

One of the things the prime minister said when he met President Obama in Washington was that the high-technology export controls, many of them still in place, were impeding business, especially in your area. Did you discuss that?

I think both sides have acknowledged that this is an issue at many levels. Our president has committed to driving export facilitation, particularly on the defence side. I think he will be reaching out to some industry leadership to help think this through and he has asked me to help think about this. But it is in many respects about the bureaucracy in the state department. At the top level everyone is committed. The congressional oversight also has to facilitate it.

What is the progress with the F18 fighter planes you want to sell to the Indian Air Force?

The defence market here has opened up for American firms and I think we have been fortunate to have some early engagement. We are having some discussions about border patrol planes and airlift requirements. The fighters are down the road a little and we are in the middle of that competition. Of course we would like to win it, but I believe there are five competitors. I am very impressed with the MoD’s (ministry of defence’s) approach here. I think it is transparent, very rigorous, and I feel it will be a fair and open competition. That is a good feeling to have, especially when you think you have the best fighter (laughs).

Are you worried now that President Bush is gone? Do you think the warmth in Indo-US relations is gone?

It is one of the things I wanted to find out when I came here. I have been asking everyone this question, trying to assess the relationship. But, the sum total of our discussions here and back in Washington is that there has not been a slowdown in momentum. Issues with Pakistan crop up because of the different angles we have — us with terrorism and you with the historical relationship. The momentum has been maintained, even though there have been some difficulties. President Obama tried to send every signal he could that the civil nuclear agreement and other agreements will be a major priority. He has tried to reassure the Indians.

Do you go back reassured?

Yes, I would say so, but we have to be vigilant. This is a new relationship and until we get to know each other better, little things can seem to be out of proportion. But, the mutual self interest is real and that is what keeps us together. The world is a safer place because of US’ relationship with India.

chiragAS · Post by **chiragAS** » 14 Mar 2010 15:10

HarishV wrote: There are plenty of semicon fabs - TSMC, Chartered, etc. who'd bend over backwards to help get your chip done just use their technology libraries and give them the gds2 - for a price - and yes it doesn't make sense for the DRDO to re-invent the wheel.

I still say go buy off the shelf from whoever bids the best - friends or no friends. Unless you are going to build in numbers there is no point in doing things from scratch. Which is probably a good reason for most delays plaguing Indian defence.

Harish you misunderstood me. yes its true if u give money they will do anything.
but my concern is how much safe it would be to trust them that they dont add anything extra to it.
You can rip open a GDS-II file also. Noboby does that in commercial world. but if any intell agency wants it it can be done.
What if they give u libraries in such a way that you feel you have filled up the die area, but there is some more place on it.
once they have done with your circuit. they can add their own.

Well i can go on this. but mods will kick us out. may be i will write up more on this in some other thread later.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 14 Mar 2010 22:04

The world is a safer place because of US’ relationship with India.

what is the in-between here?

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 14 Mar 2010 22:16

@Chirag, Harish
Response in IT thread, for lack of a better one.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 15 Mar 2010 08:04

With the VVIP Helos costing around $65 mil each, we just cannot buy a MRCA that costs less than that per plane!!!!! The standard has been set by the GoI.

I think that each MRCA should cost around 100-120 mil. ANy thing less will be izat ka mamla.

(India is flush with monies.)

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Mar 2010 08:51

nail right on the dot!

go for the EF2K!

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 15 Mar 2010 08:53

NRao wrote: (India is flush with monies.)

A fool and his money are easily parted.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Mar 2010 08:59

while the bright and smart at drdo labs suffer for funds

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 16 Mar 2010 00:10

since nothing interesting is happening on this thread and there is no new reports on the flight trials, I thought I'd post some youtube videos on the history of the Flygvapnet (Swedish Air Force) and in some ways that of Saab as well. A truly amazing and respectable history considering the size of Sweden.

youtube video Part1

other parts are available too on youtube.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 16 Mar 2010 09:23

x post

Obama is losing India

What Putin did not get was any commitment that India would pick Russian warplanes for its planned $11 billion purchase of 126 state-of-the-art fighters, intended to give the country's air force the technological edge over China and Pakistan in the current Asian arms race. It is the deal that everyone wants to win, from the Eurofighter to Boeing's Super Hornet and Russia's MiG-35.

How would anyone know that? Wonder how much of that is just the writers guess work? All of it I guess..

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Mar 2010 17:27

No Indian PM can give such an assurance when the fig-leaf of a contest evaluation has yet to be finished! MMS is not a Lula of Brazil who can override his air forc in public too.However,the IAF is being smart and on the ball by ordering more-of-the-same,SU-30MKIs,whose performance is unquestionable,a decision that has no scandal attached to it and is an insurance policy for the IAF in case the MMRCA deal gets bogged down with indecision.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 16 Mar 2010 19:43

x post..

Germany bats for EF amongst other things..

The European Aeronautic Defence and Space Company (EADS), in which Germany is the leading nation, is a bidder in the Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) of the IAF with the Eurofighter Typhoon. Its capabilities have recently been showcased in a unique simulator at the DEFEXPO 2010 in Delhi.

This aircraft would be well suited for the needs of the Indian Air Force because it is designed for a low life-cycle cost. Additionally, it ranges at the top level with regard to performance, versatility and growth potential. It could be the appropriate solution for the IAF. Moreover, the Indian defence industry would benefit considerably.

EADS wants India as a true industrial partner. By co-developing cutting-edge future capabilities, India could play a key role in tapping the plane's tremendous built-in potential. As a production and development partner for future enhancements, India could also customize the Eurofighter Typhoon to its specific requirements.Choosing the Eurofighter Typhoon would link India to Europe's largest defence programme.

In addition to supporting the growth of India's indigenous defence industry, the four Eurofighter partner companies (besides EADS, the BAE Systems, Alenia Aeronautica and CASA) and their 400 suppliers will give India access to an international sourcing network of unparalleled scope. It would significantly expand India's defence supplier base.

http://indiastrategic.in/topstories541.htm

johnny_m · Post by **johnny_m** » 16 Mar 2010 21:36

I do not understand the recent Eurofighter Euphoria across the boards, has it become one of the favourites all of a sudden with the usual suspect the Super Hornet ?

Poor Rafale and F 16 are the ones not even given a mention

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 16 Mar 2010 21:53

I think the poor Grippy is the one that is left out.