ABM/Missile Defense Discussion

juvva · Post by **juvva** » 15 Mar 2010 10:32

NDTV banner says interceptor did not take off...

http://www.ndtv.com/news/videos/video_l ... x7&live=tv

sum · Post by **sum** » 15 Mar 2010 11:12

juvva wrote:NDTV banner says interceptor did not take off...

http://www.ndtv.com/news/videos/video_l ... x7&live=tv

Twice in two days means there is something deeper which is wrong.

Rediff says:

India's [ Images ] new Advanced Air Defence (AAD) interceptor missile, capable of destroying hostile missiles, on Monday encountered coordination problem and failed to take off during a planned launch from the Integrated Test Range at Wheeler Island off Orissa coast.

"Coordinated exercise between target missile Prithvi from Chandipur and the indigenously built interceptor from Wheeler Island could not take place properly during the planned trial," defence sources said.

Though Prithvi -- the target missile -- was test-fired at 10.02 hrs from a mobile launcher from ITR's launch complex-3 at Chandipur-on-sea, 15 km from Balasore, the interceptor missile failed to blast off, they said.

Though the exact reason behind interceptor missile's failure to take off was yet to be ascertained, preliminary analysis suggested that the target missile might have deviated from its stipulated trajectory, leading to lack of proper coordination, the sources said.

The trial, aimed at developing a multi-layer Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) system, was scheduled to be held on Sunday from the two different ITR sites, but had to be put off due to some technical snag in a sub-system at Wheeler Island, they said.

Wheeler's Island is located about 70 km across the sea from Chandipur and the AAD missile was to intercept the target at an altitude of 15 to 20 km over the sea.

Ashish J · Post by **Ashish J** » 15 Mar 2010 11:13

India's interceptor missile test fails

http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/indias-i ... -17710.php

Ashish J · Post by **Ashish J** » 15 Mar 2010 11:14

Something really wrong

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 15 Mar 2010 11:19

CNN-IBN says test cancelled .

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 15 Mar 2010 11:26

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 684974.cms

New interceptor missile fails to take off

TIMES NEWS NETWORK & AGENCIES, Mar 15, 2010, 11.34am IST

NEW DELHI: India's new interceptor missile encountered coordination problems and failed to take off from Integrated Test Range along Orissa's coast, defence sources said on Monday.

The test-fire of India's indigenously built Advanced Air Defence (ADD) interceptor missile, capable of destroying hostile in-coming ballistic missiles, was held at Integrated Test Range Island off the Orissa coast.

The trial, earlier scheduled for Sunday at the Wheeler Island, was postponed to Monday due to some technical snag in the sub-system, official sources said.

After sorting out the problem and thorough examination of all systems, it was decided to make the test on Monday as part of efforts to develop a full fledged multi-layer ballistic missile defence system, defence sources said.

The target missile, a modified indigenously built Prithvi was scheduled to first lift off from a mobile launcher from the ITR's launch complex at Chandipur-on-sea, 15 km from here.

Minutes later the interceptor missile would blast off from the Wheeler's Island, about 70 km across the sea from Chandipur, to intercept it at an altitude of 15 to 20 km in mid-air over the waters.

Yet to get a formal name, the new hypersonic interceptor missile is only called 'AAD' and is meant to be used in 'endo-atmospheric conditions'.

Im not too worried. There's sure to be another test as soon as they've figured out whats wrong.

dipak · Post by **dipak** » 15 Mar 2010 11:29

India's missile defense test fails

Though the exact reason behind interceptor missile's failure to take off was yet to be ascertained, preliminary analysis suggested that the target missile might have deviated from its stipulated trajectory, leading to lack of proper coordination, the sources said.

bodhi · Post by **bodhi** » 15 Mar 2010 11:43

how does it matter if the target missile deviated? the radars track the missile and then the AAD shoots it down. Isnt that how this is supposed to work? or was the target missile out of the interceptor's range?

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 15 Mar 2010 11:50

AAD Test Aborted, Could Happen On/Before Wednesday - Livefist
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/03/aa ... efore.html

Monday, March 15, 2010
A scheduled test of India's Advanced Air Defence (AAD) endo-atmospheric ballistic missile interceptor was aborted today following what sources have called "coordination and launch sequence issues". The test has a window between March 10-17 to complete the test -- the third for the endo-atmospheric interceptor. The system -- demonstrated twice already with a remarkable degree of accuracy -- is part of India's two-tier ballistic missile defence (BMD) system, coupled with the Pradyumna Prithvi Air Defence (PAD) exo-atmospheric interceptor missile. Will post another update when I hear more about the AAD test. Stay tuned.

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 15 Mar 2010 11:53

aborted or failed? Seems failed to me. Though hopefully they will soon figure out what was wrong.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 15 Mar 2010 12:10

bodhi wrote:how does it matter if the target missile deviated? the radars track the missile and then the AAD shoots it down. Isnt that how this is supposed to work? or was the target missile out of the interceptor's range?

That seems intuitive. After all, if the system is expected to be an effective device for protection against ballistic missile attack, then the target not doing what is expected of it can hardly be an excuse! Probably there is some problem that is too difficult for the DDM to understand.

Lets wait and watch.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 15 Mar 2010 12:52

It seems perfectly plausible. AAD is supposed to protect a hemisphere with radius 25 km and height 15 km.

If the reason in the rediff news is correct, the target doesnt enter the bubble.

Mission control computer, after tracking target, determines it wont enter the bubble. It concludes the protected area is safe, and no need to waste a missile. Hence the missile doesnt fire.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 15 Mar 2010 12:54

It dosen't matter that the test failed (if indeed it failed) as long as the reasons of the failure are found out right lessons are drawn for the future.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 15 Mar 2010 13:04

tsarkar wrote:It seems perfectly plausible. AAD is supposed to protect a hemisphere with radius 25 km and height 15 km.

If the reason in the rediff news is correct, the target doesnt enter the bubble.

Mission control computer, after tracking target, determines it wont enter the bubble. It concludes the protected area is safe, and no need to waste a missile. Hence the missile doesnt fire.

There we are, then! Lack of a launch can easily be made into a story of failure by a media which wants only sensationalist keywords. Im hoping that the launch will happen soon, and successfully. This is an exciting field of Air Defence.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 15 Mar 2010 13:09

tsarkar wrote:It seems perfectly plausible. AAD is supposed to protect a hemisphere with radius 25 km and height 15 km.

If the reason in the rediff news is correct, the target doesnt enter the bubble.

Mission control computer, after tracking target, determines it wont enter the bubble. It concludes the protected area is safe, and no need to waste a missile. Hence the missile doesnt fire.

Range figures have never been released. is the figure given by you official (in case i missed some report) or from some panwallah

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 15 Mar 2010 13:09

According to Livefist, the launch may be tried again on Wednesday with better co-ordination

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 15 Mar 2010 13:19

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story ... erred.html

India's air defence missile test deferred
A crucial test of the endo-atmospheric anti-missile weapon was deferred following some technical snag.

The team has time till Wednesday afternoon to complete the launch from Wheeler Island off the coast of Orissa.

Scientists told Headlines Today there were serious coordination problems with the launch control system. The test will go through as soon as some critical issues were sorted out.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Inter ... sea/590987

Interceptor missile trial fails as target falls into sea

The test fire of India's new Advanced Air Defence (AAD) interceptor missile from the Orissa coast on Monday failed to materialise as the target deviated from its path and plunged into the sea.

The target, a Prithvi missile, fired at 10:02 am from a mobile launcher from the Integrated Test Range Complex-3 at Chandipur-on-Sea, 15 km from here, deviated from its trajectory after travelling about 11 km and fell into the sea, defence sources said.

As a result, the hypersonic interceptor missile, being developed to destroy hostile incoming ballistic missiles, did not get the required command for take off from Wheeler Island, about 70 km across the sea from Chandipur, they said.

The AAD missile was to intercept the target at an altitude of 15 to 20 km over the sea.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 15 Mar 2010 13:24

^^^ from the indian express article, it look like prithvi (target missile) failed and plunged into sea. thus interceptor test cannot be said as failed and there was not target that needs to be intercepted...

Just amazed to find how leading news papers and channels are in hurry to claim it as failed

biswas · Post by **biswas** » 15 Mar 2010 13:32

The Prithvi is a tried and tested missile, how can it fail? Such news is more alarming, than a new missile being developed failing.

Srivastav · Post by **Srivastav** » 15 Mar 2010 13:38

<just my theory> Something which might have happened is that since the target missile was a modified prithvi it had to maintain the trajectory to mimic an IRBM(?), once the trajectory was changed and since the missile was not fitting the test parameters the AAD never got launched.

p.s- failure of prithvi can also mean that it failed in its pseudo role (IRBM not sure ?), doesnt really mean it wouldve failed if it was used as it was meant.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Mar 2010 13:49

The Prithvi is a tried and tested missile, how can it fail?

a certain % of missiles will fail either at launch itself or during flight. people take that into account when launching salvos even of ICBMs...

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 15 Mar 2010 14:24

IMHO, Prithvi cannot fully mimic the flight pattern of an IRBM. IRBM's have a reentry vehicle and their terminal velocity is also much higher then Prithvi.

Also, their tracking might be different (in my opinion) as tracking a reentry vehicle is quite different from tracking Prithvi.

Agni I should be used for such testing instead of humble Prithvis.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 15 Mar 2010 15:10

nrshah wrote: Interceptor missile trial fails as target falls into sea

The test fire of India's new Advanced Air Defence (AAD) interceptor missile from the Orissa coast on Monday failed to materialise as the target deviated from its path and plunged into the sea.

The target, a Prithvi missile, fired at 10:02 am from a mobile launcher from the Integrated Test Range Complex-3 at Chandipur-on-Sea, 15 km from here, deviated from its trajectory after travelling about 11 km and fell into the sea, defence sources said.

As a result, the hypersonic interceptor missile, being developed to destroy hostile incoming ballistic missiles, did not get the required command for take off from Wheeler Island, about 70 km across the sea from Chandipur, they said.

The AAD missile was to intercept the target at an altitude of 15 to 20 km over the sea.

If this is what has happened -- this really shows that the system worked properly.. As tsarkar said - the target did not enter the protection bubble, so no interceptor lift-off..

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 15 Mar 2010 15:32

biswas wrote:The Prithvi is a tried and tested missile, how can it fail? Such news is more alarming, than a new missile being developed failing.

Even much hyped Toma Hawk missiles veered off their path and hit porkistan when US under Bill clinton pounded afghanistan.

ankit-s · Post by **ankit-s** » 15 Mar 2010 16:15

Sid wrote:IMHO, Prithvi cannot fully mimic the flight pattern of an IRBM. IRBM's have a reentry vehicle and their terminal velocity is also much higher then Prithvi.

Also, their tracking might be different (in my opinion) as tracking a reentry vehicle is quite different from tracking Prithvi.

Agni I should be used for such testing instead of humble Prithvis.

Atmospheric reentry is the movement of human-made or natural objects as they enter the atmosphere of a planet from outer space, in the case of Earth from an altitude above the Kármán Line, (100 km)

What is karman Line?

The Karman line lies at an altitude of 100 km above the Earth's sea level, and is commonly used to define the boundary between the Earth's atmosphere and outer space. This definition is accepted by the Federation Aeronautique Internationale (FAI), which is an international standard setting and record-keeping body for aeronautics and astronautics.

And the last time Prithvi II was used as intruder, the AAD was launched when it (Prithivi) was at 110 KM apogee.

IRBM is not a problem at all, because (on the contrary) it gives more reaction time to the intercepting system to work out its (intruder) destruction.

If any ABM system can not determine the velocity of a incoming hostile missile, its a piece of junk, without such determination (which is done within fraction of seconds by its computer) there could be no interception/kill.

biswas · Post by **biswas** » 15 Mar 2010 16:53

narayana wrote:
biswas wrote:The Prithvi is a tried and tested missile, how can it fail? Such news is more alarming, than a new missile being developed failing.
Even much hyped Toma Hawk missiles veered off their path and hit porkistan when US under Bill clinton pounded afghanistan.

Still it is a severe loss to H and D

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 15 Mar 2010 21:05

Such failures are a normal part of development process.

D_Prem · Post by **D_Prem** » 15 Mar 2010 21:11

The mission control centre computer found that the interception was not warranted and accordingly did not allow take-off of the interceptor missile. The cause of the target malfunction is being investigated by an analysis of telemetre data,' the official said.

I think we can take some Solace in the fact that it could have been an error in Prithvi simulating as an IRBM....and that could be the cause of the problem, rather than the inducted version of Prithvi.

Secondly the mission computer did the correct thing in not by not allowing the take-off. Hopefully, DRDO can resolve Prithvi's flight path issues in time and we can get a successful interception

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Mar 2010 22:11

Its a no show , in US too they faced issue with target missile and interceptor launch was aborted.

What more worrying is the media reaction even an abort is painted as big disaster , considering ABM test is a complex event and just because we had 3 successful launch does not mean there wont be failures ahead specially when the complexity of simulation increases and its part of learning curve , if any one of the test fails the media would gun for DRDO blood and US will jump in with its Patriot which they are any way aggressively promoting.

I just hope DRDO does this test quietly and does not do much publicity and just comes with one statement after every test , all the mission parameters are met and result are being evaluated and just carry on with the test till they are confident its good enough to be deployed.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 15 Mar 2010 22:40

The test has a window between March 10-17 to complete the test

Hope that DRDO has got a backup Prithvi ready.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Mar 2010 22:58

Its a no-test and not a failure as the press reports are saying.

The interceptor was not launched as the target was off course. I don't understand the DDMitis and the rush to declare failure.

PTI says:

Interceptor missile test turns to be a non-starter

STAFF WRITER 21:26 HRS IST

Balasore (Orissa), Mar 15 (PTI) A planned test for India's indigenous interceptor missile to counter enemy ballistic missiles failed today after the target deviated from its path and plunged into the sea, leading to the trial being aborted.

The new Advanced Air Defence (AAD) missile that was to be fired from the test range here to intercept the target was ready and all set.

But when the target, a Prithvi missile, deviated from its trajectory and fell into the sea, the computerised control mission noticed the unwarranted change of flight path of the incoming and called off the launch of the interceptor, a senior DRDO official said in New Delhi.

So they are calling the non-occurence a failure. If the AAD was fired the test would be a failure for it wont inetercept something that is underwater!
Wow they would make great schedule managers!

ankit-s · Post by **ankit-s** » 15 Mar 2010 23:07

D_Prem wrote:
The mission control centre computer found that the interception was not warranted and accordingly did not allow take-off of the interceptor missile. The cause of the target malfunction is being investigated by an analysis of telemetre data,' the official said.
I think we can take some Solace in the fact that it could have been an error in Prithvi simulating as an IRBM....and that could be the cause of the problem, rather than the inducted version of Prithvi.

Secondly the mission computer did the correct thing in not by not allowing the take-off. Hopefully, DRDO can resolve Prithvi's flight path issues in time and we can get a successful interception

Mission computer is programmed, its like sequence text book instructions, if one parameter fails, the mission would be aborted with or without human touch.

Given the test results of last successful encounter, the AAD was launched when Prithivi II was at 110 Km apogee, and was engaged while at its descent (15KM) and fully destroyed, many fragments tracked by radar.

Here we have scenario where the hostile Prithivi fell off at 11 KM, hence further tracking was negative, thus MCC switched off on the entire operation and AAD could not be activated.

This does not however tantamount to a failure.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 16 Mar 2010 00:49

A case of bad Prithvi, a retest should take care of it.

ankit-s · Post by **ankit-s** » 16 Mar 2010 01:46

Katare wrote:A case of bad Prithvi, a retest should take care of it.

Any missile is prone to failure, given the intricate design, structure (aerodynamics), electronics (seekers to be cooled), mechanics, temperature (heat shield) - less of a software glitch - unless reprogrammed (updated) after test which were responsible for faulty codes. A retest is on the cards, and Prithivis are available as they are already inducted into the armed forces. However I am worried over IA raising supercilium on Prithivi failure this time, because Prithivis/Brahmos are known to be the mainstays against Pakistan should there be a full fledged war.

Sridhar · Post by **Sridhar** » 16 Mar 2010 02:41

The very fact that something is being tested is indication that there is a significant probability of failure. If there were no (or very low) possibilities of failure, there would be no need to test in the first place! That said, this is not a failure of the AAD in any case, but of the target missile, which in turn is not launched in its regular trajectory but in a trajectory simulating an IRBM.

In sum, nothing to lose sleep over. They will figure out what went wrong and test again pretty soon.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 16 Mar 2010 03:03

ramana wrote:Its a no-test and not a failure as the press reports are saying.

Actually its successful test of the system as whole, as DRDO press release pointed out that Enemy (Prithvi) missile deviated due to some on board system malfunction and could not maintain the intended trajectory. So It was not on radar that triggered not to fire ABM.So ABM successfully not fired.

But yes, test was not for no ABM fire. So its kind of dual status .

Here's the statement from DRDO about today's abortive AAD test

The target missile took off in normal way; at T+20 sec (approx) the target deviated due to some onboard system malfunction and could not maintain the intended trajectory, failing to attain the desired altitude profile.

Ankit

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 16 Mar 2010 04:28

Interceptor Missile Test Fails as Target Deviates

A planned test for India's indigenous interceptor missile to counter enemy ballistic missiles failed today after the target deviated from its path and plunged into the sea, leading to the trial being aborted.

The new Advanced Air Defence (AAD) missile that was to be fired from the test range here to intercept the target was ready and all set.

But when the target, a Prithvi missile, deviated from its trajectory and fell into the sea, the computerised control mission noticed the unwarranted change of flight path of the incoming and called off the launch of the interceptor, a senior DRDO official said in New Delhi.

The Prithvi missile, fired at 1002 hours from a mobile launcher from the Integrated Test Range Complex-3 at Chandipur-on-Sea, 15 km from here, deviated from its trajectory after travelling about 11 km and fell into the sea, defence sources said.

Consequently, the hypersonic endo-atmospheric missile, being developed to destroy hostile ballistic missiles, did not get the required command for take off from Wheeler Island, about 70 km across the sea from Chandipur, they said.

"The target missile took off in a normal way 20 seconds prior to the interceptor missile launch. But the target deviated due to some onboard system malfunction and could not maintain the intended trajectory, failing to attain the desired altitude profile," the DRDO officials said.

The AAD missile was to intercept the target at an altitude of 15 to 20 km over the sea.

"The Mission Control Centre computer found that the interception is not warranted as the deviated target did not present the incoming missile threat scenario and accordingly the system intelligently did not allow take-off of the interceptor missile for engaging the target," the official said.

Sources in Chandipur said scientists were analysing data to ascertain the reason behind the deviation of the Prithvi missile from its pre-designated trajectory.

"Coordination between the target missile (Prithvi), from Chandipur and the interceptor from Wheeler Island could not take place properly during the planned trial," they said.

The DRDO official said, "The cause of the target malfunction is being investigated by analysis of tele-metered data."

The trial, aimed at developing a multi-layer tactical Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) system, was originally scheduled to be held yesterday from the two sites of the ITR, but had to be put off due to a technical snag in a sub-system at Wheeler Island

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 16 Mar 2010 04:31

Apparently the next test is in June (Hindu)

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 16 Mar 2010 05:56

Setback to ballistic missile defence trial

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 16 Mar 2010 05:56

biswas wrote:The Prithvi is a tried and tested missile, how can it fail? Such news is more alarming, than a new missile being developed failing.

Because this missile is altered to simulated extended range missile. Remember Prithvi range is 250-300KM, where as the target missile in AAD test is expected to be in the range of 700-2000+KM.

Our scientists are doing serious alterations on TARGET Prithvi missiles to achieve desired flight paths (IRBM/ICBM ranges).

Sid already presented this fact.