Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

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abhishek_sharma
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Address by Foreign Secretary at the Woodrow Wilson Centre on “Two Democracies - Defining the Essence of India-US Partnership”

http://www.indianembassy.org/newsite/pr ... /Mar/4.asp
We have, time and again, made genuine attempts to address outstanding issues, most importantly, the issue of terrorism through dialogue with Pakistan. My meeting with my Pakistan counterpart represented the latest such move. Despite the provocations we have faced constantly from terrorists whose linkages we have traced back to Pakistani soil, we have not abandoned the path of dialogue. And in our recent meeting, India’s approach was to focus on our concerns regarding terrorism, pending humanitarian issues, and some bilateral visits that have been planned or spoken of, but have not taken place. But it continues to be our conviction that for this dialogue to really make progress, Pakistan should take meaningful steps to address our concerns on terrorism, and cease the encouragement of terrorism targeted against India. In January 2004, the then Pakistani leadership had made such an assurance on the basis of which we resumed our Composite Dialogue to discuss various outstanding issues in our relationship. Today, Pakistan claims that it is in no position to give us such a guarantee that terrorism can be controlled by its authorities. In such a situation, the people of India who are already bitterly affected by the series of terrorist attacks directed against them, can hardly be expected to support the resumption of a full-blown Composite Dialogue with Pakistan. It is also important that there are strict accountability criteria that apply to defence assistance rendered to Pakistan for operations against terrorists and insurgents on the border with Afghanistan. Our past experience regarding such assistance has taught us to be vigilant to the possibility of it being used for purposes that generate tension and hostile actions against India. We do not have aggressive designs against Pakistan and we want it to be a stable and prosperous country. But we will be vigilant about our security. That is our sovereign right.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by Pranav »

shiv wrote: If you are fighting insurgents in your own country you must do this. if you do not do this you will end up indiscriminately killing and alienating your own population. if you alienate your own population - what are you then going to do? Are you going to put a fence between you and your own population and say they are "foreigners"? That is silly because that means you are breaking off your own country and creating a new country out of what was your own territory. A self goal.
You err in assuming that the Pakjabi Jihadist-Military elites have any problem with "indiscriminate killing".

Putting the Balochis through the East Pakistan treatment would not cause anybody to bat any eyelids, nor would it keep anybody awake at night.

What is the cost of a bullet to put through the skull of a Baloch? Multiply that by population of Balochi males and compare with the gas revenues. The billions that the Paks are getting from the west is more than enough to pay for the bullets.
Last edited by Pranav on 16 Mar 2010 07:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by niran »

shiv wrote:
  • We predicted there would be an attack
    We predicted that Pakis would be ready for retaliation
    We predicted that MMS is too weak for retaliation
    We predicted that Pakistan is very strong
    We predicted that India is weak
Sir, the bolder sentence is in fact yelled here at BRF,
but we forget "The Legacy Syndrome" all humans
yearns to leave a long lasting praise worthy Legacy,
with TSPA attacking India, IMVVHO we will see Shri MMS
morphing into something real uneatable for TSPA.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by Malayappan »

Pakistan sharpens its focus on militants
The latest from SSS. If we read this with the understanding that he is a voice of the pakistani army - LeT combo, then we can see where he is coming from; or rather what Kayani wants - a new all powerful position! It will be interesting to see how the US plays along and creates it for him!
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by Pranav »

Airavat wrote:After the division the rump state of Punjabistan will be too dependent on its neighbors (Balochistan for gas and power, Pashtunistan for water and power, Sindh for global trade and markets, India for trade, water and power) and finally lose all ability to be a nuisance to them.
Excellent analysis. An additional point is that each of independent states that will emerge - Balochistan, Sindh, Pakhtunkhwa (and even Pakjab) will have a legitimate ethnic identity. There will be no need to create an artificial identity based on hatred of India.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by arun »

From the link:
Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi Monday said the evidences of Indian interference in Afghanistan have been handed over to New Delhi.
Has the OIC unbeknownst to me declared that Afghanistan is no longer a sovereign nation and henceforth is a colony of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan who will speak on their behalf.?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by Rudradev »

Anujan wrote:
Rudradev wrote:In turn the Khans have staged this dog and pony show of a Congressional hearing on LeT. My guess is that it has to do with giving MMS' pro-US faction some breathing space, by showing us SDREs that gora Saab is indeed attentive to our terrorism concerns. Meanwhile on the ground, the US is placating the ISI over India's role in Afghanistan and arming the TSPA against India.
Rudradev-ji

You might be correct, but there are two things to consider.

1. Mumbai could have happened anywhere. And contrary to mango SDREs who get up, dust their dhotis and move on with their lives, the political hysteria and repercussions in places like US will be quite a force to manage. So it is not in the west's interest to rely on the intent of the Jihadis not to attack them, but to destroy their capabilities to attack them.

2. Shady figures like Headley could have revealed information which makes Unkil brown his jeans. The pious are being attacked in A'stan and Iraq. How many of them will be placated with Unkil's shiny toys to Pak army? How many of them are itching to use their 26/11 capabilities against western targets? Especially if there is an iota of truth of what Pakis have been trying to convince the world (The terrorists have gone rogue and are no longer under our control). One of the crimes headley has been arrested for, is planning attack on danish newspaper. Why couldnt that very well be some unkil target next time around?
Anujan-ji

Sorry for the delayed response, had not seen this earlier.

To point 1: Quite honestly, Unkil has very few options when it comes to destroying the capabilities of LeT to attack him, as long as Unkil is committed to supporting the TSPA and enlisting some degree of cooperation from the ISI. In fact, given what we know about the LeT-TSPA-ISI connection, no options at all.

How has Unkil successfully destroyed (or damaged) the capabilities of terrorist groups in the past? One method has been drone strikes. That is not likely to happen in Punjab unless Unkil decides that all-out war against Pakistan is in his interest.

The other option that has worked for Unkil has been to back rival militias, as we saw in Iraq (Sunni Awakening vs. the Zarqawi AQAM). This again is far from practical in a situation like Pakistan, which unlike Iraq has a functioning leadership that is relatively independent of Unkil, and very deeply connected to not only LeT but all the other potential candidates for an "Awakening" type militia.

I don't know if Unkil is behind any of the violence that sporadically erupts between Deobandi and Salafi/Ahl-e-Hadees militias in Pakistan, but I don't know that it would make any sense for Unkil to back a JeM or HuJI against LeT either. If anything the Deobandi groups have been far more active against Unkil's troops in Afghanistan than the LeT has. The LeT, from Unkil's point of view, at least seems to be mostly under the control of the ISI and TSPA around whom Unkil has pivoted his AfPak strategy.

So the only way Unkil could destroy LeT's capabilities would be to go to war against Pakistan with a view to regime change, as in Iraq or Afghanistan; so that as the principal power broker he would have unfettered capacity to either undertake drone-type operations against LeT, or set up other militias against LeT.

That has never been on the cards for Unkil, and it is less so than ever today, when Holbrooke seems to have brokered an "exit strategy" deal that depends heavily on (and caters generously to) TSPA and ISI interests.

That is why I am skeptical about the LeT hearings in Congress; a lot of words were spoken but Unkil's actions speak louder, and Unkil's actions invest far too much in Pakistani state institutions which created and continue to protect the LeT as a valuable strategic asset.

To Point 2:

The longer this Headley drama goes on, the more I have to wonder why he was really arrested. Is the US doing to India with Headley, something like the ISI is doing to the US with Mullah Baradar? Have they locked him up to keep him out of our reach, because of what he could tell us about the Americans' own connections via the CIA and ISI to LeT?

Here's the thing. Despite these sporadic panels of Washington "experts" coming up with bhashans about LeT in public, nothing they say is any great revelation to the American national security apparatus. The CIA has known exactly what LeT is, what they do and whom they do it to for a very long time.

The LeT is intimately familiar to the national security apparatus of the United States; Unkil has been in AfPak for too long a duration, and the CIA has too many connections with the ISI not to know exactly what is going on with LeT.

It was Vikram Sood, IIRC, who related in an article how the CIA regularly inspects LeT camps in Pakistan and PoK to make sure that no "foreigners" (I guess meaning white guys) are being trained there. Unkil has clearly drawn redlines with respect to the LeT and doesn't care what LeT gets up to outside those redlines.

Unkil's counter-LeT actions, in fact, have been restricted specifically to situations where Americans or Europeans were seen to be involved with LeT. Alexandria, Virginia; Willie Brigitte; and of course, David Coleman Headley (who can apparently pass for white).

The US national security apparatus knew Headley very well. They were running him themselves for many years, ostensibly as a DEA informant, but possibly as far more than that. He could very well have been the CIA's liaison with LeT, or CIA's mole within LeT, or something in between (a double agent). He could have been one of many such CIA operatives embedded within LeT.

Unkil has been "playing dumb" with regard to Headley's actual role in the scheme of things. They say he was just a DEA informant who went astray and got co-opted into LeT jihad, and they never realized it until they stumbled upon his Jyllands Posten plans. I don't believe that for a minute. Unkil has been playing dumb for too many decades about too many things, and its way past time we stopped extending our gullibility to swallow his denials on everything regarding Pakistan.

The Americans were admittedly running Headley as an agent; were they so daft that they let him get indoctrinated and play his own game year after year without watching him at all? IMO total rubbish.

What I believe: At the very least Headley was a deliberate CIA plant in the LeT... maybe even one of the "white guys" sent to LeT training camps to make sure they weren't training any other Americans. Meanwhile, to maintain his cover within the LeT (and probably to satisfy his own personal jihadi tendencies) Headley was allowed to become involved with LeT ops against India. Since those kinds of ops did not cross Unkil's redlines, Unkil had no problem with them, upto and including 26/11.

Given that Headley was even allowed to visit Mumbai after the 26/11 attacks, I don't think even the deaths of Americans in that incident, or the massacre at the Chabad House crossed Unkil's redlines.

After all, a few Americans dead in an attack against SDREs is tragic, but as you say, SDREs will dust off their Dhotis and move on. It was far more important for the CIA to keep Headley in place in the LeT, so as to detect and pre-empt any LeT attack on Western interests. Headley's involvement in the Mumbai attack was far from sufficient reason for the CIA to withdraw such an important mole.

So that brings up the question of why Unkil finally arrested him.

The official version is that they stumbled upon his plot to blow up Jyllands Posten, and that until this point they had no idea that he was anything but a hard-working DEA informant.

Again, IMO rubbish.

Headley may well have been involved in a plot to blow up the Jyllands Posten, as part of his cover within the LeT. His role in the Jyllands Posten plot may even have been that of a CIA mole trying to unearth other Jihadis based in the US who were willing to target Western interests (remember Osama Eldawoody and the NY Subway plot?) But I don't think that was the reason he was arrested at all.

It simply doesn't fit together with how Unkil has kept him shielded from India since his arrest, to claim that he was a straightforward American Jihadi of the Jose Padilla variety who got caught out planning an attack on a Western interest. It doesn't fit together with the rest of the story (DEA informant for many years) either.

The only reason I can think of for the Americans to arrest Headley, which makes sense given (a) the available information about him and (b) the extremely tight shield under which the Americans have concealed him from us, is that Indian intelligence was on to him. That the next time he made a trip to India, he would have been busted, and then the entire truth of the CIA's extent of accommodation and understanding with the LeT would have come out.

See for yourself how tightly Headley has been concealed. An IB team from India which went to Chicago to interrogate him, had to return home empty handed. For month after month, even as the patsy Tawwahur Rana's mugshot was plastered everywhere in the media, no one was even allowed to get a look at Headley's face. Until he was already on trial in a US court, at which point it was too late to hide his face any further, not one photograph of Headley was made available to any media whatsoever.

What were the Americans so concerned about? Who did they fear might recognize him?

Headley was about to leave for India on another LeT related mission when he was arrested. This is attested by his emails which include plans to "say hi to Rahul". Did the US grab him just in time to prevent him flying to India and landing in RAW/IB hands?

Some have speculated that the Americans were doing this to conceal the identity of high-level Pak army officers involved with Headley. This may be partially true; but the Americans have not been shy to reveal that in fact serving TSPA officers were involved with Headley... or to accept that serving TSPA officers had a hand in the 26/11 attacks. However, they have studiously avoided naming the specific TSPA officers involved, and they have made very sure that we will never get that information out of Headley himself.

To me, this suggests that it is the *identity* of the specific TSPA officers that Unkil wants to conceal... not the mere fact of TSPA officers' involvement in 26/11. So it is not TSPA whom Unkil is protecting from embarrassment by denying us access to Headley... it is Unkil himself.

This would make sense if the specific TSPA officers concerned were in fact CIA-employed "minders" of Headley, and possibly responsible for other CIA plants in the LeT besides Headley. If that were the case, the CIA would definitely consider the identities of these specific TSPA officers worth protecting... even if they were personally in charge of planning and executing the 26/11 attacks.

If Headley fell into Indian hands and these links emerged, what would happen? It would become clear that the CIA knew 26/11 was coming, knew who was planning it at the TSPA/ISI and LeT levels, knew what it would entail... and yet did nothing to stop it or warn us about it, so that their mole machine within LeT would not be compromised.

Talk about allies in a common war against terrorism, eh!

Do I have any proof for the above? Of course not.

Is it a product of speculation by rectal extraction? Oh yes.

But even this stuff that has come out of my rectum, seems to me a far more reasonable explanation for what is going on than
Aww shee-ucks, we thought he was just an honist hard workin' ex-junkie with the DEA till we found out he was about to kilt them Day-nish Cartoonists
Last edited by Rudradev on 16 Mar 2010 09:31, edited 12 times in total.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by anishns »

Please delete if posted earlier.....

mmmm let's see now......this is a YYY conspiracy of extreme proportions!! :twisted: :twisted:
RAA agints have infiltrated daawn! :roll:

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by shiv »

Pranav wrote:
You err in assuming that the Pakjabi Jihadist-Military elites have any problem with "indiscriminate killing".

Sir -you err in not having thought this thing through completely.This is not between one army and one man. It is between one army and a group .

If the Army kills only a few, the people left alive will hate the army. They will run and they will hide and they will fight back if left alive. Therefore the best bet is to kill all the people. That would be genocide. recall that something of the sort was tried in 1971 in East Pakistan and it failed.

One bullet is cheap. But the idea that putting one bullet though every Baloch head is easy and cheap is like the old story of the man who advertised in the papers offering a 100% guaranteed cockroach killer. Hundreds of people responded sending him the $10 or whatever the price was. Each buyer got 2 stones, one flat and one round with the instructions "Place cockroach on flat stone and hit with round stone"

In order to put a bullet through a single Baloch man's head you have to catch him first. And that is not enough. You then have to catch all his ethnic compatriots and place them on the flat stone.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by shiv »

Airavat wrote: The Paki army is not fighting its own people; they're just taking hits from insurgents. As long as the people in other provinces are not provided with the means of forming and protecting their own states, the stage of the Paki army "fighting its own people" will not be reached.

The process of dividing Pakistan may take a long time, years or even decades, but in that time the Paki army will keep bleeding to death, unable to focus any attention on India. After the division the rump state of Punjabistan will be too dependent on its neighbors (Balochistan for gas and power, Pashtunistan for water and power, Sindh for global trade and markets, India for trade, water and power) and finally lose all ability to be a nuisance to them.

Actually the Paki army appears to have done some damage to the people and to itself in FATA and Waziristan by indiscriminate scorched Earth tactics

Here is one link that tells a story similar to others that have been linked on here:

http://pashtunistan.net/popuppagea.html

Having said that it really is true that the Paki army has tried to reserve itself for India and send out non army security forces to do their job for the US in FATA and Waziristan.

The idea that Pakjabistan may be a separate state from Sindh is something that strikes me as unlikely. I believe that might just be a fond forum hope. Despite clear evidence of Sindhi grievances against Pakjab, the facts (as the appear to me) are that both Pakjab and Sindh appear to be the "feudal heartland" of Pakistan. Sindh in fact has bigger and wealthier landlords than Pakjab and the interests of these landlords at a national level has not been opposed by the Pakistan army. After all who is to prevent a Pakjabi dominated Army from saying 'OK we will have land reforms and remove all feudal landowners from Sindh and NWFP" but leave Pakjab untouched?

So there is a definite elite-landlord RAPE level cooperation between Pakjab and Sindh. T me this means that any hope of a separate Pakjab rump state dependent on an independent Sindh for ports might be a pipe dream. The only powerful and viable Paki rump state will be Pakjab plus Sindh, notwithstanding Sindhi naionalism.

Sindhi nationalism is more valuable for the poor pf Sindh. For the landlords - it pays to go along with "Pakistan khappay"

Just my thoughts.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by anupmisra »

Diabolical Plan by Yindoo Secret Agency
RAW told to damage Pakistan economy in the guise of talks
And how low can these evil SDREs get? :twisted: Read on:
India has evolved a master plan to cause severe damage to Pakistan economy under the garb of talks and assigned an important target to its intelligence agency RAW to provide over one trillion rupees to anti Pakistan Taliban through Afghan transit.
RAW has started providing financial assistance to Taliban through alcohol and beetle nut (chalia). RAW at present was supplying over two hundreds containers of alcohol and beetle nut illegally to anti Pakistan Taliban every month :rotfl:
This way billion of rupees are being distributed among Taliban so that on one side Pakistan economy could be undermined
while Afghan people neither use beetle nut nor drink alcohol,
Damn You Raw! for turning innocent tellibunnies into insect-eating mass murderers! That too, the honorable insects' nuts! May you rot in hell!
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by Malayappan »

LeT hearings in US serve just one purpose - it provides US sourced references against pakistan or pakistan based terrorist organisations, supported by the pakistan state. Nothing more.

To be doubly sure it should not be taken as indicative of any improved understanding on the part of US on terrorism in India
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by Amber G. »

anupmisra wrote:Diabolical Plan by Yindoo Secret Agency
RAW told to damage Pakistan economy in the guise of talks
And how low can these evil SDREs get? :twisted: Read on:
....Meanwhile according to Yawn, The Chief Justice from the land of pure says in:
India financing terrorists to destabilise Pakistan
and Only Muslims are brave enough to carry out those terrorsit attacks and get arrested because of wearing beard.. :eek:
...Lahore High Court Chief Justice Khawaja Muhammad Sharif expressed grief over series of suicide attacks in the country, which, according to him, were being carried out by Muslims, as non-Muslims could not dare take risk of their lives.
...
The CJ adjourned hearing till March 26 as a deputy attorney general on behalf of interior ministry sought time to file reply after having consultation about facts of the matter. Petitioner had requested the court to restrain government from handing over the detainees to the US or any other country.
...
He further requested the court to bar foreign agencies from interrogating the Afghan detainees and issue directions that only intelligence agencies of Pakistan should conduct their interrogation as they were arrested from different parts of the country.

He was of the view that all the arrested persons were Afghan Taliban who never carried out any terrorism activity in Pakistan or elsewhere. He said they were arrested merely for keeping beards
Only in Pakiland a Chief Justice speaks like this..(Don't know how his honor or the idiot editor came to conclusion about "India" etc...
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by archan »

^^ Pakistan had a bright future, indeed. :idea: :)
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by arun »

The US has been touting the thesis when it comes to supplying F-16’s that the Pakistan Airforce needs them to fight the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

If that is indeed the truth then why is the Pakistan Airforce conducting an exercise rather than getting on with the job of fighting the war on terror?

Is it because the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Pakistan have been defeated :wink: ?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by Amber G. »

Xpost from the other thread: (Click the link for images)
Came upon these wonderful photo's from:
Wonders of Pakistan
First Blog on Heritage, Culture and Tourism in Pakistan


wonderful image 1
Followed by:
wonderful Image 2
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by abhishek_sharma »

No proposal sent by India for next round of talks: Pakistan

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... s-fo-ss-11
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by abhishek_sharma »

The crazy Right and rump Pakistan
By Kamran Shafi
Tuesday, 16 Mar, 2010

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... kistan-630
I was to regale you with other stories to do with our security establishment’s tortured and seemingly futile hunt for the very elusive holy grail of strategic depth in Afghanistan (I ask you) this week, but the ever-increasing assault on our poor country and its innocent people by unlettered and brainwashed and murderous yahoos leads me elsewhere.

...


Lahore has been attacked twice inside of a week, the attacks killing scores of people and injuring and maiming many more. The intelligence agencies failed all ends up yet again, and as per usual, specially the premier agency aka the Mother of All Agencies which seems to have its finger in every matter — from disappearing people to formulating the country’s foreign policy to destabilising the government whenever it is perceived to be stepping ‘out of line’ — except in running the yahoos to the ground and nipping their evil in the bud.

You might well ask what I mean by the title of this piece. Simple: the Crazy Right are the successors of the Crush India Brigade of the late 1960s and early 1970s which gave us the Bangladesh tragedy (which of course had other reasons too); rump Pakistan is the country we are left with after the breakup of Pakistan as a result of the exertions of the crazy Right. They might well succeed yet again.

Here is the present high priest of the crazy Right, one Zaid (Zaman) Hamid, reportedly speaking on something called ‘Ummah Radio’: “Pakistan is in the headlines again! Oh people! Know that it is a combined action of RAW and Mossad to dismantle the divinely placed concrete foundations of the house of the pure, the feared fort of Islam. We are a nation which is like a glittering star of guidance for the crescent of the whole Muslim world, the pioneer of the creation of the green united states of Islam in the world that is drowning in the sea of ignorance.

“Oh Muslims! Always hold on to truth, and the truth is that it is yet again a Zionist-controlled western media’s conspiracy. Let’s rise up against the enemies of Islam; let’s nuke the ... Hindus and Jews, the nefarious dark forces of this planet. Insha’allah, the time for shahadat is near. My sons and daughters, get ready for the big day, the promised day when Allah will make the Muslims victorious and Jews will run here and there to find shelter. Even the trees will talk and will say: ‘these sons of apes and swines are hiding behind my trunk’.

“Rise up and get ready for the mass suicide. Great nations die for a noble cause. What is more nobler than wiping the enemies of Islam from the face of this earth? Remember, Islam is a peaceful religion. Allah commands us to take care of each other. All are equal in the eyes of Allah. Slay them with your daggers. ...Islam will rule the world....”.

...

If this doesn’t make your blood run cold and infuriate you all at once, dear reader, I don’t know what will. Can you and I ask why this person is allowed to go on with his increasingly violent rants aimed at the huge numbers of unemployed, half-educated youths who have nothing to do in a country that is essentially a security state and which, instead of creating job opportunities for these vulnerable targets for the spreaders of poison, spends most of its money on toys and more toys for the boys, and more and more luxurious perks for its generals?

Surely spreading hate against other religions is against the law? Surely calling for mass suicide is against the law? Surely advocating nuking the hell out of another country is a crime against humanity itself? Why, then, is this man not prosecuted?

...

We must recall immediately too that some days ago this person was hosted in Peshawar by Governor Owais Ghani and sent amidst official protocol to speak at Islamia College University where he was not allowed to speak by the Pakhtun Students Union and the Amn Tehrik and was sent scurrying back to the comfort of the governor’s bosom.

Why, pray, is the federal government’s representative in Peshawar trying to smooth the way for this purveyor of hatred? Why is he mollycoddling this man who is attempting to lead the country’s disaffected young astray?

Our country is at great risk, my friends, for no one seems to have learnt any lessons at all. I fear it will face even more grief in the coming days while our politicians leap off the cliff like lemmings.

[email protected]
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by shiv »

Najam Sethi's videos are interesting. He keeps making veiled references to "hukumat" versus "riyasat" or "hukumat" versus "awaam". I am presuming humkumat is a euphemism for the army.

Also interestingly Sethi compares Pakistan with Iran and says that Iran is "strong" because it can stand up to the US, and Pakistan is weak because it cannot stand up to the US.

It is interesting that we call India (or an Indian leader) "weak" because of inability stand up to the US.

So we have:

Iran=strong - stands up to US
Pakistan=weak - cannot stand up to the US
India=weak - cannot stand up to the US

So who is weaker, India or Pakistan? Who is the bigger ghulam of the US? Prima facie, Pakistan appears to be the bigger ghulam. In return Pakistani leaders get support and gifts from the US.

Thinking of things in this way takes me to a philosophical point about the rhetoric and currency of power. I do not want to make this a discussion on Islam, but I raise the topic of Islam as an analogy. Radical Islam demands submission to Allah. That demand to submit is made by a militarily powerful group purporting to represent the interests of Allah. Those who submit are favored by the powerful military group as a friend and an ally. Open opponents to Allah are marked out for elimination. They are always under threat.

Now compare this with the US (as the military power that represents "God - a.k.a. Freedom and democracy).

Pakistan submits to God and is favored as a most favored ally

Iran opposes God and is marked out for elimination

But what of India? India is hedging its bets. as long as India is opposed to God, India's opponents who are supporters of God are helped. India may get help conditionally.

With regard to the US (as the power of God), Pakistan is deen, Iran is kufr, and India is kufr or dhimmi depending on its behavior.

The rhetoric and currency of dealing power is exactly the same now as it was 1300 years ago. Only the soldiers of God have changed. It's the US now.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by Pranav »

shiv wrote: If the Army kills only a few, the people left alive will hate the army. They will run and they will hide and they will fight back if left alive. Therefore the best bet is to kill all the people. That would be genocide. recall that something of the sort was tried in 1971 in East Pakistan and it failed.
They failed in East Pakistan because India had a border with East Pakistan. They may figure they can do a better job in Balochistan ....

But anyway, as regards your argument about Sindhi feudals: Sindhi feudals would be even more happy to get political power in an independent Sindh. In united TSP they are always second-class.

In the long-term, India has to align with the objective of justice in order to make progress in TSP. So land reform should remain on the agenda. India should sweeten the deal for Sindhi feudals by offering to help them make transition from agriculture to trade and industry. That would have the added advantage of aligning their interests with the Indian economy. The same deal can be offered to select entities in Pakjab too, in return for not obstructing the natural trend towards re-organization of TSP.

TSP has reached the end of the road and it is bankrupt in every sense. It is incumbent upon India to proactively encourage the re-organization of TSP on a more rational basis. Failing which continue with the current dysfunctional situation for many more decades. A crucial issue will be how to manage the baaps. Need to evolve a set of carrots and sticks to encourage them to do the right thing.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Strong India can deal with Pak's terror agenda: Nirupama Rao

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 688881.cms
Expectation that India has significantly changed its approach towards Pakistan and Afghanistan appears misplaced. Signaling an unrelentingly robust stance towards Pakistan unless it cracked down on sponsoring terrorism against India, foreign secretary Nirupama Rao told a Washington audience on Monday that New Delhi's restraint should not be mistaken for weakness and it has the capacity to "deal effectively with those that pursue destructive agendas against India and its people." She also declared India will not scale down its presence in Afghanistan, a Pakistani wish that is playing on American minds.

The gist of Nirupama Rao's remarks to her American audience indicated that India had briefly calibrated its approach to Pakistan and initiated talks to see if Islamabad was genuine in ending terrorism directed against India. The Pakistani response showed otherwise. "Aggressive pronouncements by persons identified by the world as terrorists continue to be made openly against India," Rao said, referring to Lashkar-e-Taiba chief Hafeez Saeed among others. "Today, Pakistan claims that it is in no position to give us such a guarantee that terrorism can be controlled by its authorities."

Despite the "brazen and malignant" nature of the threats India faced, Rao said, India has made several genuine efforts to restore trust and confidence. But now in the face of Pakistani intransigence, public opinion in India "can hardly be expected to support the resumption of a full-blown Composite Dialogue."

...

Rao also questioned US messaging on Afghanistan, saying it is vital for the international community to stay the course in that country and any reintegration process should include only those who abjure violence and terrorism and are willing to abide by the values of democracy, pluralism and human rights.


...

While her remarks about Af-Pak situation revealed a degree of disquiet with the Obama administration's policies in the region, Rao was largely sanguine about bilateral ties with the US despite some of the commentariat suggesting the Obama administration had taken its eyes off the US-India ball.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by Fidel Guevara »

If the Pak Army needs to disintegrate for TSP to disintegrate, I don't think it is going to happen through TTP attrition.

They have 650,000 reasonably professional soldiers, and killing a Brigadier every couple of months, and maybe 10-12 soldiers every couple of days won't cut it.

With 2/3 the IA manpower, the PA probably recruits 300+ Abduls every day into their professional ranks. So the TTP killing 12 Abdul-soldiers a day only means lifting the recruitment target by 4%, in order to maintain full combat strength. Sure, most of the attrition may be in infantry, but still we are just talking about a few % increase in recruitment into the professional ranks.

The real deal will be when we hear of beards in the Pak Army turning their guns against the non-beards.

If the Pak Army from Zia's time turned more to the beards, and the current govt changes hiring to non-beards, that may well be a turning point.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by Pranav »

Fidel Guevara wrote:If the Pak Army needs to disintegrate for TSP to disintegrate, I don't think it is going to happen through TTP attrition.

They have 650,000 reasonably professional soldiers, and killing a Brigadier every couple of months, and maybe 10-12 soldiers every couple of days won't cut it.

With 2/3 the IA manpower, the PA probably recruits 300+ Abduls every day into their professional ranks. So the TTP killing 12 Abdul-soldiers a day only means lifting the recruitment target by 4%, in order to maintain full combat strength. Sure, most of the attrition may be in infantry, but still we are just talking about a few % increase in recruitment into the professional ranks.

The real deal will be when we hear of beards in the Pak Army turning their guns against the non-beards.

If the Pak Army from Zia's time turned more to the beards, and the current govt changes hiring to non-beards, that may well be a turning point.
Valid observations.

But there could be other modes of failure too. What if the TSPA can no longer afford salaries or fuel or spare parts, and what if the non-Pakjabi recruits start drifting away?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by Raja Ram »

Time for another ramble gentle rakshaks?

It is the begining of the Indian summer and the extreme heat always gets even the best of minds sometimes scrambled and of course the usual lemon sellers out in Delhi to try and quench some thirsts. This time is no exception of course.

Here and elsewhere, the "masterly moves" by the great leader and distinguished economist led GOI have been analysed and explained to the lesser mortals. We are all told that the GOI has thought through all dimensions and based on real politik assessment, and the great master plan for India, the best possible way forward for India is to resume talks with Pakistan. Further more we are to realise that an intact pakistan is in our national interest and will help us get to the economic super powerdom faster.

We the unwashed, the unconcerned and ignorant citizens of India have to understand the great thinking that is behind these initiatives and support our leaders. Trust them and they will do the right thing.

The latest breakthrough in thinking is of course how the artificial state rentier state of Pakistan's survival through their present crisis is in India's best interest. What is the centrality of this line of argument?

1. A pakistan this is always on the boil and in trouble with itself will not be in a position to inflict great damage on India, even if the paki army wants to. They may at best kill civilians across India. That will not be enough to scuttle our grand march of GDP growth. India can take it.

2. The destruction of the current state of Pakistan is not in the best interest of its 3.5 supporters. They need an intact pakistani state and an army to control it. As long that is there, they can minimise the risk of them becoming targets and get out of the mess they find themselves in post occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan. India does not have the capability to go against the interest of these great powers presently. By subsuming its interest to that of these supporters, India will be able to extract from and make these powers deliver a promise to stop Pakistan from attacking India. This is a realistic approach.

3. If Pakistan breaks up, the resulting rump state of pakistani punjab will have the ability to concentrate on India as there will be peace and they will be free from the need to subjugate other regional forces in pakistan. The Paki army will see a manifold increase in its capability to infict terror on India as it will be free to pursue this agenda without any distraction. This will pose a serious threat to India's march to economic super powerdom and there could be a war that India does not want at all costs.

Therefore considering all this, the GOI is right in not only starting talks but is also displaying the highest levels of statecraft in ensuring that Indian interests are served by ensuring that Pakistan not only survives but by walking the extra mile the GOI will make Pakistan realise the need for peace. The result will be the great South Asian renaisance and forging of a common destiny.

Let us look a the central theme for Pakistani state survival.

1. Pakistani capacity for terror has increased manifold both in terms of reach and killing capacity. The increased instability in Pakistan has not in anyway contributed to any reduction in the attacks on India. Statistics can confirm this. The power tussle between the various factions has not resulted in any reduction in intensity or capacity on the part of the pakistani army to carry out its terror attacks on India. Indeed, the pressure exerted by the US on the Pakistani army to go after the Taliban and Al Quaeda and move the troops to the western Durand line borders has not even made a dent in its ability to launch terror in India.

The key thrust of the argument is not the capacity of their army to pursue jihad by a thousand cuts, but the Indian capacity to live with this. Killing civilians in India is not a problem for the GOI it appears. Let us leave aside whether it is right for any GOI to live with such a proposition for a moment. Instead, gentle readers should actually reflect on whether India can actually reach its master plan goal of economic growth in this environment. You need a nation for having an economy. A nation has to be secure for economic growth to happen. The artificial state next door, has increased its ability to inflict terror and pain on India despite getting more unstable. The main terror masters, the Pakistani Army has increased its ability to inflict pain on India and has used the same unstability to blackmail its 3.5 supporters to increase its capacity to withstand Indian punitive action and also improve its conventional war capability. In addition to getting them to agree to talk to India on "core issue" of Kashmir and also restrain India.

So unstable Pakistan continues to pose increasing danger to India. The Pakistani Army, despite being under pressure, has not let the situation inside to affect its jihad by thousand cuts in India. In fact it has used the situation to improve its capability. Jihad by thousand cuts has the capacity to slow down if not completely derail, GOI's master plan for economic growth. Hence position or argument 1 is not tenable.

Now let us look at the argument or position number 2. The real politik angle. India does not have the capability to go against the interests of the great players. Let us for a moment grant this as a given for the sake of argument. By accepting this and working with these powers has India achieved its stated objectives of making these powers put pressure on pakistan to desist from terror?

Facts are that the Pakistani government has got more money albeit with strings attached. But none of the strings is related to pulling back on terror against India. Further, there has been a resumption of conventional arms supply that is designed to help Pakistan achieve a greater level of deterrence against any possible punitive retaliatory measure by India.

Even if India does not have the capacity to aid in the process of gradual implosion of this artificial state, it does have the capacity to make the cost to the 3.5 supporters of pakistan survival far higher. That rising costs would at least enable them to start paying attention to Indian concerns rather than the present lip service and force them to act on it. Currently, their position is to do the least possible to allay Indian concerns as India is a responsible country. Their position seems to encourage Indian concessions to Pakistan as a payback for the paki elite for helping the western powers get out from the region with a semblance of victory.

It is incumbent on any elected GOI to protect its own interests first rather than subsuming them in favour of interests of larger or stronger powers. At least that would be the expectation of an average citizen.

This position completely discounts another vital element. The 3.5 powers that support Pakistan and want it to remain as a check on India also cannot afford to antogonise India beyond a point. India, unlike far eastern economies, that grew in an export led development model, has always been a growth led export economy. A large part of the stimulus to grow is internal. It will remain so. The demand will be created here. The 3.5 powers know this. If they have to make choices that will completely antogonise India they will desist from doing so. But they are not going to say this and openly acknowledge this fact. It is for the GOI of the day to help them make those choices.

Like Hanuman, the GOI may not be aware of its own strengths. Perhaps it needs to be reminded by a Jambavan? Who knows?

So the assumed benefits from underplaying Indian concerns in recognition of real politik assessment is also not tenable. One is not even getting into debate of Indian capability.

Finally, turning to the position or argument 3. A pakistan that is balkanized will mean a rump pakistan that will have an increased capability to pursue its break up India Jihad. This position assumes certain things.

That there will be peace post balkanization between the resulting states. Not with key issues like sharing of water, sharing of resources and access to ports becoming focal points of conflict.

It also assumes that the paki army will maintain it capability without degradation. If such an implosion has to happen, then the paki army as we know it has to be engaged, it will either split vertically or join ranks with its proxy Army of Islam. Things will have to come to a situation that the Paki army should be forced to shed its "shield" of non state actors and the apparent distinction between the Army of Islam and the Paki Army is shattered.

The Paki army as we know it is as likely to be substantilly, if not completely emasculated as it is to remain largely unscathed, in the event of an implosion of the rentier state. To assume only the latter is possible is not taking a realistic view. In fact the probability of the former happening is higher. There is a lot that the GOI can do to increase the chances of the former happening.

The third assumption related to this line of thinking is that the break up of Pakistan is not going to provide an opportunity for India to degrade the resulting rump state of Pakistan from getting stable.

It is also entirely likely that the new states will look to India to help assert their new found independence and a degraded Pakistani army of the rump state can be subject to intense internal and external pressure to even ensure survivability of the rump state or their control over it.

It is therefore evident that the arguments made for the survival of this artificial rentier state, whose sole objective for existence is to ensure breaking up of India, is somehow the best outcome under the circumstances for India is still a tenous one at best. It can be a good intellectual explanation for GOI position. But it does not pass the test of reason.

But why let reasoning stop explanations :) ? This is after all a ramble. Take it for what it is worth.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by shiv »

Pranav wrote: What if the TSPA can no longer afford salaries or fuel or spare parts,
America has ensured that will not happen for 60 years and shows no sign of being tired of continuing to do that.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by shiv »

Raja Ram wrote: 1. Pakistani capacity for terror has increased manifold both in terms of reach and killing capacity. The increased instability in Pakistan has not in anyway contributed to any reduction in the attacks on India. Statistics can confirm this.
What statistics? From which start year to which year?
Raja Ram wrote:Even if India does not have the capacity to aid in the process of gradual implosion of this artificial state, it does have the capacity to make the cost to the 3.5 supporters of pakistan survival far higher.
How can India increase the cost to 3.5?
Raja Ram wrote:It is also entirely likely that the new states will look to India to help assert their new found independence
This assumption has no basis whatsoever.

"I think a new state will be formed out of Pakisan. I don't know the shape, size, name or location of that state, or even how it will be formed or when it can be formed. But I do know it will be dependent on India.

What type of "reasoning" is this? 8)
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by Philip »

Who in the TSP is working for whom?
The US's privatisation of wars has seen he proliferation of "contract killers",like Blackwater bloodsucking like leeches the wealth of victim nations on behalf of their sponsors.Now even the Pntagon is involved in such criminal acts.No wonder India cannot trust anyone in Pak or in the US too.
Pentagon spy network hired to 'track and kill'
A Pentagon official has been accused of hiring a secret network of private contractors to spy on militants in Afghanistan and Pakistan so they could be hunted and killed.

By Ben Farmer in Kabul
Published: 6:34PM GMT 15 Mar 2010

The employee is said to have paid firms using former members of the special forces and CIA under the cover of an innocuous government scheme to gather tribal and cultural information.

Their reports were then passed to military and intelligence units so they could kill militants and target insurgent camps, officials told The New York Times.

It was not clear if Michael D Furlong, the Pentagon official at the centre of the accusations, had approval for the scheme but officials said they had become alarmed he was running an off-the-books spy agency.

The network is alleged to have been blown when the CIA chief in Kabul personally complained to the US Defence Department.

His operation has now been shut down and he is subject to criminal investigation for offences including contract fraud.

One official said: "While no legitimate intelligence operations got screwed up, it's generally a bad idea to have freelancers running around a war zone pretending to be James Bond." Government officials alleged Mr Furlong could have improperly siphoned off funds from a scheme to supply commanders with information on the region's tribes.

In 2008, he was put in charge of a £15m ($22m) budget to hire private contractors to glean political and tribal information for Nato commanders.

Robert Young Pelton, an author and government contractor who worked with Mr Furlong, alleged his work had been improperly used. Several officials said the intelligence had seen insurgents killed and Mr Furlong had boasted of his successes.

The United States has for several years waged an aggressive "kill or capture" campaign using commandos and unmanned drones against senior Taliban and al-Qaeda figures in the mountainous Afghan border area.

Mr Pelton said: "We were providing information so they could better understand the situation in Afghanistan, and it was being used to kill people." A spokesman for the Pentagon said the affair was now under investigation.

He said: "The story makes some serious allegations and raises numerous unanswered questions that warrant further review by the department."

The accusation follows a previous disclosure that CIA officials hired the American mercenary firm Blackwater for an aborted assassination programme aimed at al-Qaeda terrorists in Iraq.

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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... -kill.html
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by Raja Ram »

shiv,

the same type of reasoning that states that Paki army will have increased capability because it will be free from crushing others in pakistan.

trust you to get the reasoning bit 8)

statistics - you can get them if you look at the number of terror incidents post 9/11, post musharaff, post Obama, post whatever period from a variety of sites, home ministry is one source. BTW you can get statistics to prove anything. like how a surviving unstable pakistan is less dangerous than broken up pakistan

on the nature of the broken up pakistan and India's influence - it can be zilch or most of them can be indian satellites or some may even merge...who knows...only the event will teach us at its hour. If there is no reasoning for the latter there is even less for the former.

To put it mildly sir, to each his own intellectual mastrubation! (your preferred style of explanation) :)
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by Ameet »

Pakistani official found dead in Athens

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... hens-ss-10

........according to initial investigations, three people with a dark complexion had manhandled Khawar that night while he was was going home. They also took away his belongings.

The Greek police had found him dead with serious stab wounds. Documents found in his possession confirmed that he was an official of the Pakistani embassy in Athens.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by Suppiah »

Ameet wrote:
........according to initial investigations, three people with a dark complexion had manhandled Khawar that night while he was was going home. They also took away his belongings.
Were they short and of the rice eating type too? :rotfl:

A purely gramatical question - does manhandle apply to Pakbarians?
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by vera_k »

Raja Ram wrote:Killing civilians in India is not a problem for the GOI it appears.
I suspect this can be challenged in the courts. Government functionaries are not immune to charges under IPC if it can be shown that the GOI is wilfully pursuing such a policy.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by SSridhar »

First, the Punjabi Taliban mount a series of violent attacks in Lahore.

A rattled Punjab CM, a closet Taliban like his own brother, goes to a seminary and pleads with the Taliban to spare Punjab because, unlike the federal government, the Punjab government does not bow down to the diktats of the US. He requests the Punjabi Taliban to take the suicide attacks to the other three provinces.

Then, the Taliban responds to the plea. TTP offers deal to the Punjab government

Omar Khalid, the powerful Deputy to TTP Chief Hakeemullah Mehsud says that the Taliban will avoid the Punjab if the Punjab government stops taking action against them.

Now, that is an interesting response from the Taliban. The Punjab government is indeed *NOT* taking any action against any terrorist tanzeem. JeM's Masood Azhar openly visits his home in Bahawalpur and even takes part in events of releasing jihadi books, HuJI and LeJ are reviving, the Punjab Government refuses to go in appeal against Prof. Hafeez Saeed, the Punjab Government allows Prof. Saeed and his brother-in-law Mr. Makki to preach jihad against India in central Lahore while heavily armed LeT soldiers surround him and regulate the crowd. Punjab Law Minister Rana Sanuallah sought the support of SSP in getting the PML-N candidate elected from Jhang recently. In fact, the Punjab Government has gone out of its way to allow these termites to crawl out of the woodworks. So, why is TTP saying that no action should be taken against them ?

What the Taliban are saying is that the situation in the Punjab must go to pre-2001 levels. Qari Saifullah, Masood Azhar and others must be able to work like before. They must be able to recruit foot soldiers like Ajmal Kasab, freely. That's the demand.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by Sanku »

Great post Raja Ram; a excellent dissection of points of views which are completely untenable but are supposedly pragmatic for what ever reasons (if we consider the considered opinion of Indian intelligentsia as seen in ELM)
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by SSridhar »

The 1947-48 Kashmir War
I must say that with or without Ayub Khan’s participation, initiating hostilities in Kashmir cost us that state. . . The tribal warriors quickly forgot the mission they were supposed to achieve, and succumbed prey to a vice deeply rooted in their culture and history — looting, pillaging and raping. . . . The tribal warriors had no clue that something called the Accession Bill privileged the rulers of princely states to determine their state’s relationship with India and Pakistan. That Pakistani officers and jawans were also oblivious of the same is rather astounding. The fact is that even Quaid-e-Azam did not realise the great folly in going into Kashmir. There is overwhelming evidence to suggest that he had instructed a number of ministers to help the ‘freedom fighters’ whereas Liaquat and some others were lukewarm in their support. . . . But here are some arguments to prove that the Kashmir War actually set in motion a process that diminished our claim on Kashmir. Maharaja Hari Singh Dogra had no intention of merging his state with either India or Pakistan. The Pakistan-sponsored insurgency forced him to choose sides. . . . Had the Indians opened the front at Lahore or Sialkot in 1948 as they did in 1965, our bluff would have been called forthwith. . . . The 1947-48 Kashmir was a much more irresponsible adventure than the one that was initiated in 1965. . . . It only perpetuates a vain myth that the Pakistan military is some invincible fighting machine and the fault lies in some generals.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by shiv »

Raja Ram wrote:BTW you can get statistics to prove anything. like how a surviving unstable pakistan is less dangerous than broken up pakistan

This is the crunch point as far as I can tell. The very crunch point that makes me look at alternative scenarios without any specific political agenda.

"Broken up Pakistan" versus "unstable Pakistan"

We have what I believe is an unstable Pakistan here. Of course anyone could dispute it and say that Pakistan is stable now, by which analysis all that I type below in this post can be ignored.

The progression from "unstable Pakistan" could be
  • Stable Pakistan
    Pakistan breaking up by itself
    Pakistan being broken up by external help
    Chronically unstable Pakistan
a) Will Pakistan break up by itself? Perhaps. But we have no idea about the time frame. Of course the assumption remains that Pakistan is unstable.

b) Will someone break up Pakistan? I doubt that anyone will actively do that. Not the 3.5. Not India. I cannot even see how India can "break up Pakistan" without actually attacking Pakistan and getting into a war with Pakistan.

Let me post some thoughts about this. I have constantly harped on the fact that Pakistan's population is burgeoning and that Pakistan will have a large number of unemployed and uneducated people over the next few decades. But let me add an additional factoid here. By 2026, India will have the largest pool in the entire world of young people needing employment. Those born in 2010 require schools and colleges and the development of industries and vocations for India's youth.

Given that India will have this huge mass of young people in just 16 years, and given the imperative of setting up, within India the infrastructure to deal with our own young, I find the idea of attacking Pakistan to "break up" Pakistan a horrifying idea.

Why horrifying? It is horrifying because those Indians will be born anyway whether we fight a war to break up Pakistan or not. We will have those young people to educate and employ whether we fight that war or not. The clock is not just ticking for Pakistan. It is ticking for India as well. We could use our young manpower as soldiers to fight that war with Pakistan, but that would require preparation from now and an expansion of our armed forces to be ready for any eventuality. And after we attack and break up Pakistan we will be left with Pakistan fragments who might want Indian support against a Pakistani rump state. If all goes as per this plan we will have all our extra millions of Indians to educate and employ, and still have to pay the cost of war, and still have to pay the cost of demobilization and resettling of the new recruits, and still have to pay for helping to resettle all those millions of Pakistanis of the new states formed out of Pakistan (who the Pakistani government is now supposed to look after )- who will "seek India's aid" after a war that India has started to break up Pakistan.

And with an India burdened by all these extra problems generated by an Indian dream of breaking up Pakistan, it is only the 3.5 who will be happy. And they will be equally happy to help a rump Paki state oppose India. Hence my confidence that a Paki army "defeated by India" will survive defeat in a rump state and still be a pain for India - as it has been after previous defeats.

What does all this mean? India will gain nothing from imposing war on Pakistan to break up Pakistan. On the other hand, if Pakistan decides to impose war on India, India's response can be calibrated to various degrees starting from a mere punitive action to "breaking up Pakistan" if the latter opportunity happens to present itself and India can afford to do that despite the 3.5. All this is too far in the realms of theory to work out in detail for this post.

In effect we are going to have to live with an unstable and intact Pakistan. Breaking up Pakistan is not in our interests because of the formidable challenges that I have listed. The 3.5 will not break Pakistan for us. Under the circumstances we are faced with the need to admit the inadmissible. An intact Pakistan alone is in India's interest, given the current geopolitical scenario. Nobody can afford to break Pakistan up. We have to make do with all the trouble brewing in Pakistan and thank God that there is trouble brewing for Pakistan anyway. We just must not increase trouble for ourselves.

Does this mean that we keep losing people to terrorism for an unspecified number of years? Yes. If you can think up a less costly option I would like to hear it.

If this conclusion appears to be in support of the Congress Government's (in)action, I feel truly sorry for the opposition who live in times when the inaction of the Congress is in line with the country's needs while the laments of the opposition can only be a frustrated cry in the wilderness. Under the circumstances - I find it easier to distance myself from political affiliations even if others seek to impose political affiliations to my views.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by Sanku »

Shiv wrote:I cannot even see how India can "break up Pakistan" without actually attacking Pakistan and getting into a war with Pakistan.
Shiv wrote:If this conclusion appears to be in support of the Congress Government's (in)action
That about sums the verbal diarrhea (your words as far as I can see) on Pakistan I think.

Oh if only for leadership which could see.

----------------------------------

What the heck -- if the thesis is that Pakistan is a inherently unstable cesspool held together by 3.5; the easiest thing for India to "encourage" the self dissolution of Pakistan is to increase the cost by 3.5 to hold it together, till the point RoI for them is untenable.

A whole bunch of things short of war can be done and have been enumerated here for 10000000000 times.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by Raja Ram »

shiv wrote: b) Will someone break up Pakistan? I doubt that anyone will actively do that. Not the 3.5. Not India. I cannot even see how India can "break up Pakistan" without actually attacking Pakistan and getting into a war with Pakistan.

Let me post some thoughts about this. I have constantly harped on the fact that Pakistan's population is burgeoning and that Pakistan will have a large number of unemployed and uneducated people over the next few decades. But let me add an additional factoid here. By 2026, India will have the largest pool in the entire world of young people needing employment. Those born in 2010 require schools and colleges and the development of industries and vocations for India's youth.

Given that India will have this huge mass of young people in just 16 years, and given the imperative of setting up, within India the infrastructure to deal with our own young, I find the idea of attacking Pakistan to "break up" Pakistan a horrifying idea.

Why horrifying? It is horrifying because those Indians will be born anyway whether we fight a war to break up Pakistan or not. We will have those young people to educate and employ whether we fight that war or not. The clock is not just ticking for Pakistan. It is ticking for India as well.
Interesting point you raise here shiv, but why the assumption that the only way India can help in the implosion of this artificial state called pakistan is India attacking pakistan and declaring a war? What is the basis of this assumption?

Even if we take this assertion as true, why should India extend any help in stabilising Pakistan? As you rightly point out India has to provide for teeming millions of young men jobs and schools and what not. Do you think a chronically unstable Pakistan that is very capable of inflicting increasingly intensive Jihad by a thousand cuts specifically aimed at breaking up India is anyway less of a danger? Will not the entire Indian gameplan for providing for the masses be in jeopardy unless you remove this existential threat?

Pakistan is defined today with a specific purpose. It stands for destruction of India. It is for India to decide now. It has two options. One is to work for the elimination of this entity. Either actively or passively. By passive, one means doing the bear minimum of not helping pakistan in any way or form. Let them solve their surviavability problem. No need for talks or walking extra miles. There are means diplomatic, economic and cooercive military methods to achieve the active part. India can provide carrots and sticks to the 3.5 powers to do the needful.

The other option is to try and buy peace. Believe clearly that pakistan can be changed to be a normal state without anti India existential reason. Buying peace means giving in to some demands of this state. What then can we give? Kashmir? Water? Even after giving in will there be peace? You are an authority on pakistan. You know it better than me. Do you think Pakistan has crossed the threshold from where it will be impossible to turn around Pakistan from its stated objective of breaking up India?

It can be argued that we come to terms with an equally valid reality. India cannot survive and grow with this existential artificial entity called pakistan next door. It has to go. You can pray that it crumbles on its own or you can also do something about it. The least India should do is not offer any lifeline to this entity. Feeding the snake and later crying that it bit the hand that fed it is stupidity.

Great post though as usual. You expand normal course of thinking in the forum as usual. I for one, has never attributed political leanings to you shiv.

BTW, my posts in this forum does not have political affliations. I have been a defender of many GOI positions in the past when Congress was in power and have criticised NDA regime too.

Still I agree that your conclusions seem to be the one that has the maximum support of the people of India. It is also true that it sometimes pays to be in the minority if you believe that there is a case for GOI to answer here. I neither lament nor am I frustrated. :)
Last edited by SSridhar on 16 Mar 2010 15:54, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Fixed Quote Tag
Philip
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by Philip »

We have to thank the grand old Congress party for another great contribution to the English language,the phrase heard in Parliament during the Women's Bill fiasco,poor "Floor Maangement".

Thr you have it ,the answer to India's prickly Paki problem."Floor Management".'As veteran clairvoyant Shiv well put it,we on BR have predcited long ago the Paki response to India's pace iniative.The Pakis read "peace" as a sign of weakness and whenever an Indian PM talks of "peace",it responds by going in for terror overkill,which is what happened on 26/11,whose aftershocks we are seeing at Pune,etc.This "peace" initiative however comes at he prodding in Dr.Singh's backside by one "Uncle Sam".A rich uncle indeed but to pak.He glosses over the indiscretions and bullying of his favourite nephew and catamite Pak,no matter how loud th protests of th nrighbours like india are.In fact,Uncle sam wants India to even share its compound with Pak,allowing it squattibng rights on its trerrace!

So what can we expect from pak in perpetuity?Nothing but terror and more terror.If we are unwilling to take up the sword and go into Pak's compound and destroy the terror,as shown by this latter-day Delhi Sultanate,which only mouths worda about "decisive response",bkah,blah,then efficient "floor management" of India territory is a stop-gap solution.I also recommend that we strike a deal with the Naxalites and send them into J&K with squatting rights if they can assist in destroying the Paki tribes!
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by Hari Seldon »

Well, if and when unkil moves on Iran, DIlli should be alert to moves by the likes of PRC and TSP against Indian borders. PLA did that in 1962, took advantage of unkil's preoccupation with the cuban missile to cock Dilli a bloody nose.

Of couirse, this jingo dreams that Dilli for one take advantage of unkil's Iran preoccupation (after the attacks begin) and rout TSP in PoK.
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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

Post by Suppiah »

This thread moves faster than the list of whores Tiger slept with, so excuse if posted already...

National bird despatches another 10 pure to their 72...

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6230HI20100316

The key is is Unkil killing the TSP assets or mutual 'liabilities' which is basically assets no longer under control?
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