Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Mar 2010 13:34

ASPuar sahab, you have (completely) missed the point of my post. I am sorry if I came across as confrontational, that was most certainly not the intent. the subsequent appeals to seniority etc were unnecessary, we all respect you as a postor in your own right, not because you registered before me. (just FYI though, I've been browsing BR regularly since late 90's)

in any case, as I mentioned earlier, moderation advice/suggestion should not be given on the thread (I've no problems with advices as such) as they are off-topic.
and while you can't PM me, you do have my email. I'll probably get back to you by email later today since I'm a little busy right now.

in any case, all this is OT and I'll remove all such posts to trash, including manjgu ji's and my own earlier reply to you.

@ ALL,
>> any further communication regarding moderation/thread management should be done by reporting/email to moderator email.
>> armoured vehicles thread is a necessary part of a military forum and same is true of BR. there can't be *any* question of shutting it down. OT posts/baseless insinuations will be culled as and when required. members can do their bit by reporting such posts.
Rahul.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 12 Mar 2010 13:45

Fair enough. I dont imagine that I know more than you because I joined before you RM, and its equally unnecessary to make that assertion. And RM, you know that I appreciate and respect you as a moderator. Im simply stating things as I have seen them.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 12 Mar 2010 13:59

Okay so the now the argument is that the posters here know more than IA?

Is there no limit to narrow hubris?

And Kanson you have yet not been able to point a single shred of evidence from any official source.

You should cease and desist till you find any meaningful information and till then stop this nasty and biased vilification campaign of Indian Army without any logic merit and knowledge.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 12 Mar 2010 14:18

nachiket wrote:The problem sir is that the T-90 which is basically a souped up T-72 is as much a piece of 1970s machinery as the Arjun. In fact it is more so. A T-90 facing a Chinese Type 99 is exactly like a Sherman facing an M-47 Patton.

I must say that it is a quote of the lifetime. Bravo!

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 12 Mar 2010 14:44

chackojoseph wrote:
nachiket wrote:The problem sir is that the T-90 which is basically a souped up T-72 is as much a piece of 1970s machinery as the Arjun. In fact it is more so. A T-90 facing a Chinese Type 99 is exactly like a Sherman facing an M-47 Patton.
I must say that it is a quote of the lifetime. Bravo!

A really poor reflection on a lifetime one must say, if the above piece of gyan qualifies as such.

In any case, given the ostensible characteristics of Type 99 the above statement will be true of all tanks in Indian inventory including the Arjun.

We can make similar statements on many one to one comparison of systems between Indian and Chinese forces, esp in field of Missiles and rocketary.

And if fact the same WAS true of IA and Pakistani Army in 65 and between the Allies and the Germans in WW II.

And of course not to say, facts well known already.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 12 Mar 2010 18:22

Thread is Locked for 48 hours - mandatory cooling off for all.
Thread will reopen at 14th March, 4.00pm GMT.

archan · Post by **archan** » 15 Mar 2010 22:53

According to forum software it is It is currently 15 Mar 2010 05:22 pm. I have unlocked this thread. Please keep your tempers cool and realize that both parties want the best for the army and Bharat.

Ashish J · Post by **Ashish J** » 16 Mar 2010 21:47

Arjun meets performance objectives

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/03/ar ... -team.html

The indigenous Arjun main battle tank (MBT) has "met all performance objectives" at the recent month-long trials in Rajasthan, according to sources who witnessed them. The Army's trial is expected to submit its report and findings latest by the end of this month. Despite what the Defence Ministry seems to be putting out, DRDO is confident that the game isn't over -- that the Army may still be prevailed upon to place an order for at least 176 more tanks. Watch this space.

GR8 News,,,lets hope 4 d best

rajsunder · Post by **rajsunder** » 17 Mar 2010 00:40

Ashish J wrote:Arjun meets performance objectives

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/03/ar ... -team.html

The indigenous Arjun main battle tank (MBT) has "met all performance objectives" at the recent month-long trials in Rajasthan, according to sources who witnessed them. The Army's trial is expected to submit its report and findings latest by the end of this month. Despite what the Defence Ministry seems to be putting out, DRDO is confident that the game isn't over -- that the Army may still be prevailed upon to place an order for at least 176 more tanks. Watch this space.
GR8 News,,,lets hope 4 d best

i was just about to post the same news. Anyways I think we need to wait till the official confirmation of the news, before we can start distributing the sweets.
The pessimist in me says that the report is going to come up with a all together new reason as to why the IA is not going to order some more ARJUNS.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 17 Mar 2010 00:50

rajsunder wrote:i was just about to post the same news. Anyways I think we need to wait till the official confirmation of the news, before we can start distributing the sweets.
The pessimist in me says that the report is going to come up with a all together new reason as to why the IA is not going to order some more ARJUNS.

Livefist had a post last week saying there were definitely not going to be more orders. Now this. I would say there is not much use discussing this issue till the Army, Govt or someone comes out with real numbers and timelines.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 17 Mar 2010 01:04

There is no confirmation of the report by a named IA source. So, we wait.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 17 Mar 2010 01:24

rajsunder wrote:
i was just about to post the same news. Anyways I think we need to wait till the official confirmation of the news, before we can start distributing the sweets.
The pessimist in me says that the report is going to come up with a all together new reason as to why the IA is not going to order some more ARJUNS.

This is not news. Just gossip. This report is completely unofficial. To me, it just seems like someone trying to get the first word in, so that anything that comes out later, and officially, is seen in a suspect light, in the light of the prior report saying ALL WELL!

Simple tricks of the government mind. Hold on to your hats and await the official report.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 17 Mar 2010 01:37

ASPuar wrote:
Simple tricks of the government mind. Hold on to your hats and await the official report.

How does the government come into the picture here?

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 17 Mar 2010 01:40

nachiket wrote:
ASPuar wrote:
Simple tricks of the government mind. Hold on to your hats and await the official report.
How does the government come into the picture here?

The government mind says... whatever info is leaked to the media first, becomes gospel truth. Anything which comes after, is always evaluated in the light of the first report, regardless of whether it is true or not.

All actors in this episode are cut from government issue cloth. So, they employ government psyops techniques. Any other questions?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 17 Mar 2010 02:55

Aspuar, only the IA report/confirmation/order means anything in this process from now. The GOI can do diddly squat in the matter.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 17 Mar 2010 10:03

Viv, wasnt referring to that. Simply saying (and I guess you agree) that this news is no news at all. Its just someone jumping the gun.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 17 Mar 2010 10:39

In 996, when it performed, Army said that Arjuns cannot be made fast enough.

Then few years back, after AUCRT, Army said, its an old technology and FMB needed.

This time...... Lets wait.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 17 Mar 2010 12:54

RayC wrote: Don't worry there is enough cuckoos around.

Until one learns of the issue officially, cuckoos shall fly.

Sorry for going OT, didnt get this part

Does it allude to the fact that "cuckoos flying" refer to rumour-mongering or CT's?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 17 Mar 2010 13:13

Klaus wrote:
RayC wrote: Don't worry there is enough cuckoos around.

Until one learns of the issue officially, cuckoos shall fly.
Sorry for going OT, didnt get this part

Does it allude to the fact that "cuckoos flying" refer to rumour-mongering or CT's?

Not rumourmongering.

Merely, I know the 'inside' stuff and just take it from me.

Main dussya attitude! ( I have said so and I know all)!

We must await the official view and then go ballistics!

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 17 Mar 2010 14:17

As this thread is going toooo often OT...

http://china-defense.blogspot.com/2010/ ... tibet.html

The March 16th 2010 edition of the China Defense News confirms that for the first time in history, the Tibet (Xizang) Military District has organic Main Battle Tank (MBT) asset.

And from WIKI

Weight 42.8 tonnes
Length 10.28 m
Width 3.45 m
Height 2.30 m
Crew 3

People's Liberation Army – 2500-3000
Pakistan Army – 300+ Type 90-IIM and MBT-2000/ Al-Khalid manufactured in Pakistan.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 17 Mar 2010 17:56

Sanku wrote:Okay so the now the argument is that the posters here know more than IA?

Is there no limit to narrow hubris?

And Kanson you have yet not been able to point a single shred of evidence from any official source.

You should cease and desist till you find any meaningful information and till then stop this nasty and biased vilification campaign of Indian Army without any logic merit and knowledge.

Please...here no one is talking abt the paanwalla stuff and no one wants to villify the Army willingly with bias and the discussion is more towards testing and procurement of T-90S and Arjun. If anyone done more damage to Army it is the Army to itself. I'm merely pointing out what was already discussed and written about. Why would Maj. Gen. Singh, the caretaker of Arjun project, goes to say or words to the effect of, comparative trials conducted by the Army may not be reliable. I'm sorry, you assertion has no basis. If you dismiss the evidence so far provided in terms of Parliamentary/ CAG reports, CDM case study, quotes from MoS defence & standing committee members then you must be someone knowing more than these people...So are you saying you know more than these gentlemen?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 17 Mar 2010 18:34

Kanson wrote:
Please...here no one is talking abt the paanwalla stuff and no one wants to villify the Army willingly with bias and the discussion is more towards testing and procurement of T-90S and Arjun. If anyone done more damage to Army it is the Army to itself. I'm merely pointing out what was already discussed and written about. Why would Maj. Gen. Singh, the caretaker of Arjun project, goes to say or words to the effect of, comparative trials conducted by the Army may not be reliable. I'm sorry, you assertion has no basis. If you dismiss the evidence so far provided in terms of Parliamentary/ CAG reports, CDM case study, quotes from MoS defence & standing committee members then you must be someone knowing more than these people...So are you saying you know more than these gentlemen?

I don't know if Maj Gen RP Singh was in the regular Army when he gave this statement or he was seconded to the DRDO permanently. If he was seconded from the Army to the DRDO permanently, then he was a DRDO officer and by the virtue that he was commissioned in the Army, he was an Army officer in a new avatar.

I think he would be a DRDO person though on Army Rolls and his career not decided by the Army but by the DRDO. I would be very surprised if a Senior Army officer would publicly assert that the Army is a fudge.

If he were a DRDO officer seconded from the Army, his loyalty correctly lay with the DRDO.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 17 Mar 2010 18:45

^^ This is OT RayC...
On what basis he was promoted to the rank Maj. Gen. when he is actually seconded to DRDO ?

I think the statement was made by HM Singh.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 17 Mar 2010 18:56

Kanson wrote:^^ This is OT RayC...
On what basis he was promoted to the rank Maj. Gen. when he is actually seconded to DRDO ?

I think the statement was made by HM Singh.

On the basis of seniority and Annual Confidential Report.

I am not sure whether it is RP or HM.

It does not matter which Singh it is. What matters is the content and effect and in which organisation he is in.

Is he from the DRDO?

I have no idea.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 17 Mar 2010 19:05

Kanson,

Thanks for the correction of HM.

This is what is said:

The DRDO is crying foul. Major General HM Singh, who spearheaded the Arjun's development for the last 28 years until he retired a fortnight ago, points out that inserting tactics into the trials would give the army a way of putting down the Arjun.
HM

If he was with the DRDO for 28 years, then he was not with the Army. Therefore, one can surmise he had been seconded to the DRDO permanently from where he retired!

If he was still in the regular Army, he would have surely had to have a command of a unit, Brigade and a Division to reach the rank!

Therefore, when he speaks, he is batting for the DRDO and not the Army and therefore, maybe you would not be right to say that Army is the biggest enemy of the Army!

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Mar 2010 19:10

deleted.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 17 Mar 2010 23:06

I do not understand this penchant people have of insisting on discussing sundry problems with IA/DRDO/indigenous R&D/AHQ/ and what not on this thread. I understand a holistic view is sometimes necessary but this is NOT the place to do it. kindly use the India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector thread for those. please do understand when things are going too far off the track.

this thread has a limited mandate of discussing armoured vehicles and I would request members to kindly stick to the topic. the next general rant about the state of affairs not related to the thread title might also invite board warnings.
Rahul.

---thread unlocked after clean-up---

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 17 Mar 2010 23:10

deleted.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 18 Mar 2010 23:26

If the arjun is selected for further orders, what kind of roles would the arjun equipped regiments perform???

@adminullahs: Sincerely sorry if OT for thread...

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 19 Mar 2010 00:07

Bala Vignesh wrote:If the arjun is selected for further orders, what kind of roles would the arjun equipped regiments perform???

Its my guess that by looking Arjun's weight, it's role will restrict to plains of Punjab,Rajasthan, may be some southern part of Jammu. I think if it will be inducted as really MBT not just to keep happy MoD and DRDO and other folks than Arjun will form a part of Desert corps.

Ankit

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 19 Mar 2010 00:24

Isn't the ground pressure of the Arjun less than that of the T-90? How exactly does its weight restrict it from performing the same roles of the t-90?

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 19 Mar 2010 00:36

RoyG,

Recent trial in desert also made me to say so.

I am not the subject expert. It was just guess, it may be wrong. But looking forward to read from more on this question.

Ankit

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 19 Mar 2010 00:39

RoyG wrote:Isn't the ground pressure of the Arjun less than that of the T-90? How exactly does its weight restrict it from performing the same roles of the t-90?

Total load bearing abilities of bridges on Pakistani sides, same for Roads (they too have a total load factor); availability of number of Rail vehicles which can transport Arjun (there are more for T series due to longer deployment ); the need to keep them in one sector.

The Kms each tank can run to before needing oil change etc and other such engineering support, impact of Sand and dust was different on one vs the other (dont know if it is same now -- I am only speaking for 2007 trials)

OTOH; Arjun electronics can take higher heat and still function, and provide better crew comfort for hot areas.

These are some factors which may appear minor but go a long way in determining which tank works better in which area.

For example look up the behavior of Tiger Tanks (German) in WW II in different theaters in Europe and how strengths some time become weakness.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 19 Mar 2010 04:29

Total load bearing abilities of bridges on Pakistani sides

I would have doubts on too many bridges staying intact for use to cross. would rely on our bridge laying equip

but other points stand

In Oz and have a ex Leopard 1 tanker in the clients office

came to know that while the Leopards were great - they got stuck in Northern Terr in the rain.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 19 Mar 2010 06:03

So I made the ex Leopard 1 tanker read this thread (poor guy).

Surprise surprise - he has some sympathies for the proponents of T series (logistics etc) - except he would never step into a T series voluntarily for what it affords crew protection.

And he tells me all the problems and questions raised by Arjun were also raised when the Abrams came in. They just worked past it - new rolling stock, new transporters etc etc.

http://www.news.com.au/m-abrams-tanks-i ... 1112254964

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/abrams- ... 1112543229

Added later:

He was involved with exchanges with NATO and his preferred tank is the Leopard 2.

negi · Post by **negi** » 19 Mar 2010 06:34

Problems faced by leopards outside Germany do not count as Arjun is made in India as per IA's GSQRs so as long as it meets the latter point about Paki bridges is a straw man argument for if it was an important criteria as it is being made out to be then IA would have put a upper ceiling on weight and dimensions of the MBT in the GSQR .

First lets reach a consensus on one point i.e. does Arjun meet IA's GSQR for its MBT ? If Yes then lets stop trying too hard to raise non issues.

chandrabhan · Post by **chandrabhan** » 19 Mar 2010 07:36

Ashish J wrote:Arjun meets performance objectives

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/03/ar ... -team.html

The indigenous Arjun main battle tank (MBT) has "met all performance objectives" at the recent month-long trials in Rajasthan, according to sources who witnessed them. The Army's trial is expected to submit its report and findings latest by the end of this month. Despite what the Defence Ministry seems to be putting out, DRDO is confident that the game isn't over -- that the Army may still be prevailed upon to place an order for at least 176 more tanks. Watch this space.
GR8 News,,,lets hope 4 d best

Sorry to dampen spirits but I met up with the Commander of the T90S regiment who participated in the trials and he had a different story to tell regarding the Arjun..

Engine gave away
Tracks weathered away
Just could not fire on target
Hose and pipes is a different story to tell as per him
No quality check
Vehemently against the induction of Arjun

Chandrabhan

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 19 Mar 2010 07:47

Awwww he did not.

It cannot be -

would love to meet your T 90 commander after the next Indo Pak round whenever it happens

Just could not fire on target

yawnnnnnnnnn

negi

My info was only anecdotal - just to show that you cannot sit back and claim transporter problems for 10 yrs.
and no matter there will be some sort of problems but overall you want the big well protected beast on your side.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 19 Mar 2010 09:06

Rather sad that the informed posts on the evolution of the GSQR and it progress through the decades seem to have vanished.

There were some which were definitely informative and would have helped in posterity to analyse what went wrong or right once we got the official intimation on the issue of Arjun's fate.

I sure hope they were merged with the R&D thread.

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 19 Mar 2010 09:13

Engine gave away
Tracks weathered away
Just could not fire on target
Hose and pipes is a different story to tell as per him
No quality check
Vehemently against the induction of Arjun

The direct input from an actual Tank commander is much appreciated, Chandrabhan.
Unbelievable as it is, please provide more input.

Its kind of crazy that engine gave away again??
And what is "Just could not fire on Target" ...
Or was it that the T-90 was firing on the wrong target given the status of its thermal imager ...

...
Just kidding.

Did he give any figures?? What were the results? Whatever the objectives??
As in, was it T-90s vs Arjun? Or were they collaborating in achieving some tactical objective??

I hope the good commander said more than what you wrote.
Am very sceptical, but appreciative of the input.

Regards
Ashish