Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

[ramana]

we already have had a pretty successful muslim prez and in coming days we might have a muslim PM too but I would certainly not want to join my country with the aforementioned basket cases, let alone have one of their ultra-religious idiots as PM. and we have already far exceeded his imagination have we not ? who cares what he says.

1) Dr. Zakir Hussain
2) Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed
3) Abdul Kalam

All the above were Presidents of India.

[Rahul Shukla]

'Key al-Qaeda commander' killed in Pakistan (Press TV)

A top al-Qaeda commander, wanted for a deadly attack on CIA agents in Afghanistan, has been killed in a US drone attack in Pakistan. An unnamed counterterrorism official told AFP that Hussein al-Yemeni was believed killed in a drone strike in North Waziristan last week.

[Johann]

- 1988: Libya commissioned a terrorist bombing on Pan Am over Lockerbie in Scotland

How do you know this? Don't just swallow the Anglo-US propaganda hook, line, and sinker. I followed this case quite closely. US first speculated Palestinains, then the Iranians, then the Syrians; and finally, it was most politically expedient to blame Libya. So called "evidence" is only as good as you can make it stick. US with its bull-dozing power can use some flimsy nonsense backed by B-52 bombers as "evidence" and people lap it up, while India produces fool-proof evidence of TSP terror as if any is required, but only backed up by dossiers and sanctimony; and TSP laughs it off as "literature" .

CRS,

If you are familiar with the case then you will remember that while the evidence against the *specific* Libyan intelligence officer held up as a whipping boy is flimsy, the evidence of high-level Libyan involvement is not.

Megrahi was convicted on the basis of a scrap of clothing in a suitcase that a Maltese shopkeeper claims to have remembered Megrahi purchasing. A weak link indeed.

However, what is not disputed, even by critics of the case and the trial is that the electronic timer used in the bomb was purchased in a batch from a Swiss company by the Libyan government. Another timer, used in an identical device was used to bring down a French airliner over Niger in 1989. A third identical device, with another timer in the batch was found when German police raided a PFLP (then a Libyan client group) cell in Frankfurt.

Without this kind of damning evidence of Libyan involvement the Russians and the Chinese would never have allowed a vote for sanctions against Libya to pass in the UNSC. Libya was an important purchaser of weapons from the Soviets/Russians, and the Chinese were also building close business ties.

There's nothing like this to tie Iran to the Lockerbie bombing, although its motivations are certainly plausible.

[Prem]

They". Everyone I talk to here talks about "they". Many refuse to talk in case it provokes "them" to undertake a quick execution. "They" is the Inter-Services Intelligence. "They" is military intelligence. "They" are the Americans, some of them present – according to the few "disappeared" who have been released – during torture sessions. The Defence of Human Rights Pakistan (DHRP), the movement which Amina founded with 25 other bereft families, has gathered evidence of English-speaking interrogators who calmly ask victims questions during their torment. Ironically, Amina lives in a military district of Rawalpindi, beside an old British barracks, where US soldiers are observed in Pakistani uniforms – sometimes female American soldiers dressed, so she says, in the uniforms of Pakistani military paramedics.

With such deep penetration by US , they must have access to much information on Paki inbred terrorists and their activities against Indian.

[svinayak]

With such deep penetration by US , they must have access to much information on Paki inbred terrorists and their activities against Indian.

Ofcourse. They can give all the information to India if they want.

This is a fake media perception that there Paki terrorists are planning major attack on India. They plan the events and create "news" for the world. Everything is under their control

[CRamS]

However, what is not disputed, even by critics of the case and the trial is that the electronic timer used in the bomb was purchased in a batch from a Swiss company by the Libyan government. Another timer, used in an identical device was used to bring down a French airliner over Niger in 1989. A third identical device, with another timer in the batch was found when German police raided a PFLP (then a Libyan client group) cell in Frankfurt.

Please read the Economist's coverage of this case, hardly a source that would stray away from being the Ventrolquist voice of its US masters: It is at best a flimsy circumstantial case. The evidence is not slam dunk. And if you followed carefully, US was hell bent on indicting Syria, and that was after the case against Palestinaisn did not stick, but they needed Syria's help in the periodic pass time of every US president: bogus Israeli-Palestinains piss process; and that was when they started focusing on Libya. With public anger on the rise, and remeber, Americans are not like SDREs who lick their wounds and walk the extra mile; they demand retribution; and US had to do something and thats when Libya became a whipping boy. Anyway, this will be my last on this as this is not the topic of this thread and I need to get back to work .

[Amber G.]

we already have had a pretty successful muslim prez and in coming days we might have a muslim PM too but I would certainly not want to join my country with the aforementioned basket cases, let alone have one of their ultra-religious idiots as PM. and we have already far exceeded his imagination have we not ? who cares what he says.

1) Dr. Zakir Hussain
2) Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed
3) Abdul Kalam

All the above were Presidents of India.

In 1971 while morons were describing the conflict between "Muslim Pakistan" and "Hindu India" it was pointed out to them that Pakis not only lost to Hindus but those pitiful cowards surrendered to a Sikh (Arora) whose Chief of Staff was a Jew (Jacob) Under Field Marshal who was a Parsi, PM was a woman, VP was a Muslim.. etc..

[Rahul M]

we already have had a pretty successful muslim prez and in coming days we might have a muslim PM too but I would certainly not want to join my country with the aforementioned basket cases, let alone have one of their ultra-religious idiots as PM. and we have already far exceeded his imagination have we not ? who cares what he says.

1) Dr. Zakir Hussain
2) Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed
3) Abdul Kalam

All the above were Presidents of India.

sorry for the OT. actually I meant the most successful prez was a muslim, not that he was the only one.

[Atri]

1) Dr. Zakir Hussain
2) Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed
3) Abdul Kalam

All the above were Presidents of India.

sorry for the OT. actually I meant the most successful prez was a muslim, not that he was the only one.

How do we decide whether or not a particular president was successful or not?

[R_Kumar]

I think our first president was a very honest, intelligent and respected person.

[Rahul Shukla]

Pakistan Uses Insurgency and Counter-Insurgency for Political Gains in Afghanistan - Ehsan Azari (Huffington Post)

The Pakistani spy agency Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) has recently captured nine out of the 18 key members of the Taliban central command circle known as Mullah Omar-led Quetta Shura. Does that sudden and unusual strike mean Pakistan is going to divorce itself from its long-standing ally the Taliban once and for all? Or is that a strange spectacle designed to make new political fortunes in Afghanistan?

The history of Pakistan's use of religious extremism as a cheap and effective policy tool against its neighbouring India and Afghanistan suggests that the ISI is going to punish those among the Taliban leaders who disobey the spy agency or even those who have been willing to negotiate with the Western backed government in Kabul. The arrest of Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, second to the Taliban secretive supremo Mullah Omar has been interpreted by many analysts as a new ploy to block attempts made by the President Obama and Kabul to initiate a political settlement in Afghanistan. According to Afghan sources Baradar was in secret talks with Kabul which was mediated by Saudi Arabia.

This claim is further backed up by Pakistan's refusal to hand over the captured Mullahs to Afghanistan. An independent interrogation might have revealed more details and more importantly the truth about the ISI past secret dealings with the Taliban and their possible negotiations with the government of President Hamid Karzai.

The extradition has been barred apparently by the Lahore High Court which towards the end of February ruled that the Pakistani government cannot hand over any of the Taliban detainees to Afghanistan... The ISI might have persuaded the court to make this decision, for the agency has had a history of directing the country's domestic politics.

For Pakistan keeping the Taliban leaders in custody is obviously far more useful than their extradition to Afghanistan. As a bargain chip, the ISI can use the arrested Taliban leaders to gain high-ground in the Afghan game and tame those among the Taliban leadership who are turning against the Pakistani state.

Many experts believe that the ISI's multi-layered and covert links with the Taliban is part of Pakistan's strategy to use them as an effective leverage against arch-rival India. The real intention behind the link, however, is to gain control of Afghan domestic politics and especially contain the Pashtuns on both sides of the Afghanistan-Pakistan 2310km long border known as the Duran Line, which was drawn by British Empire in 1893.

Afghanistan was the only country that refused to recognise Pakistan as a legitimate state after the partition of the Indian subcontinent in 1947.

The extension of war in Afghanistan holds out the greatest hope for the ISI to promote Pakistan's geopolitical strategy as well as keep American tax-dollars flowing.

[krisna]

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... QD9EGS97G0

The landslide also has blocked the Karakoram Highway, a vital trade link to China, cutting off 25,000 people in the Upper Hunza Valley

China, a longtime ally that relies heavily on the Karakoram Highway for trade, has sent rice, sugar and other goods, according to the disaster agency. The Chinese Embassy in Islamabad said in a statement that a Chinese road company was working with Pakistani authorities in the disaster zone "by providing equipment and machinery as well as engineering consultations."

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/asia/2010/03 ... tanis-edge

Some people are even warning that a dam burst could threaten the country's largest dam at Tarbela on the Indus river.

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/v ... src=imgrss
NASA images

Even nature conspiring against bakis.

[sanjaykumar]

Please do NOT show the Karakorams here-it greatly upsets me that !$#@% India lost this superb piece of real estate.

@#$@%

[Fidel Guevara]

Clarification on the issue of "India's economic momentum will force Pakis to back off":

1) No intention to compare political compulsions between NoKo and SoKo, only between two similar cultures separated by several orders of magnitude in terms of per capita income.
2) My assumption was based on India's per capita GDP being at least one order of magnitude higher than the Pakis to force recognition of this disparity.

As it stands today, India's Nominal GDP per Capita is just slightly ahead of Pakistan, and depending on whether you read the IMF data, or WB or the CIA Factbook, et al, each presents a slightly different set of numbers. So, a Paki today can justifiably point out "yes, Indians are onlee a few $ better off than us Pakis, but things are so much better in Pak if you look at this other indicator from the WB or that indicator from the IMF". That's because India's social indicators are still very very close to Paki HDI indicators, across many areas. Seen from 30000 feet, the two countries indicators look pretty much the same.

What will change the mental picture even in the dull Abdull brain, is at least an Order Of Magnitude difference. At that point in time, they may well reject the "India is bad, Hindus are bad, they are losers" propaganda fed to them from the RAPEs. We should continue to have Aman ka Tamashas and the trains and the buses, just so that average Abduls can visit India and see how much better off Indians (and by extension, Indian secular modern policies) are wrt pure Pakis, and spread that message through word-of-mouth.

[sujoy]

I had posted a couple of comments on CNN's article (http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/03/18/headley.plea/index.html?hpt=T1) on David Headley's arrest, which pointed out the following omissions:

- That David Headley's real name is Daood Gilani, born to a Pakistani father.
- That his brother is the spokesman for the Pakistan Prime Minister.
- That his accomplice Tahawwur Rana was a captain in the Pakistan Army and that Rana's brother Modawat is a Brigadier.

Most of these are common knowledge but I had posted these seeing many posters assumed he was an American "convert".

However, none of these comments were ever published. Is that a common experience with other forum members?

[Fidel Guevara]

Did some quick Excel projections on when India will be an order of magnitude ahead of Pakistan, in terms of Nominal GDP per Capita. I didn't use PPP stats as those have even more unpredictable factors to forecast (plus you cannot buy nuclear reactors and Arrow missiles through PPP US$). Order of magnitude defined as being at least 3.16x larger/smaller.

BASIC ASSUMPTIONS

........................................India.........Pakistan......Source
Per capita GDP (US$)............1067.........1010...........Average of IMF, World Bank, CIA World Factbook
Population growth rate..........1.34%.......2.16%.........World Bank
GDP Growth Rate..................8%...........3%.............Assumption
Per capita GDP Growth Rate...6.57%.......0.82%.........Calculated from above


PROJECTION
****************************************************
Year India Pakistan Difference (India/Pakistan)
2009 $1067 $1011 1.06
2014 $1467 $1052 1.39
2019 $2016 $1096 1.84
2024 $2772 $1142 2.43
2029 $3811 $1190 3.20 <======THIS IS IT

****************************************************

So, in a scant 19 years from now, if present economic and population growth trends continue, we will be in a different league altogether, and that difference will be clearly perceptible even to a Paki AbDull.

[Fidel Guevara]

I know there are many folks who see flaws in the economic argument ( and I too fully agree with the points brought forth), so let me downsize my statement.

Previous statement : "India's economic momentum will cause Pakis to just give up jihad against India"

Downsized statement : "India's economic momentum will cause non-jihadi Pakis to secretly wish that their country's government was more like India, and that they lived in India instead of the hell-hole they are in"

As of now, Jordan has one order of magnitude higher GDP per Capita vs Pakistan. The US is one order of magnitude higher than Latvia. Or Singapore vs Russia.

If I was a Paki, Latvian, or Russian, I would be amazed if my first overseas trip was to Jordan, USA or Singapore (respectively). If my government then told me that the other country is a hell-hole, I would totally disagree and call them liars, and spread my first-hand observations to my social circle. IMHO.

[lakshmikanth]

If I was a Paki, Latvian, or Russian, I would be amazed if my first overseas trip was to Jordan, USA or Singapore (respectively). If my government then told me that the other country is a hell-hole, I would totally disagree and call them liars, and spread my first-hand observations to my social circle. IMHO.

Biradher... I beg to differ. It would infact cause more problems, unless we equally scale up our security.

What prevents a pig from going back to shit-hole and using jealousy as the Jihad platform? Just like the modern day Jeehardi tries to criticize western lifestyle. The future Jeehardy pig from TSP would use Indian lifestyle as an excuse to do jeehard. Infact the Elites, more than anyone, will have that itch in the musharraf to do an == somehow and to keep the abdul happy in the false heaven he is living in.

[Karna_A]

Downsized statement : "India's economic momentum will cause non-jihadi Pakis to secretly wish that their country's government was more like India, and that they lived in India instead of the hell-hole they are in"

Non-jihadi Pakis already know that. In fact way back in 1994 I was told by a Paki that the worst thing his parents did was to immigrate to TSP. and this was repeated by other Pakis as well.
But that ALONE would not stop terrorism. After all the propoganda machine of TSP is so twisted that they would say all wealth in India is due to exploitation of minorities and due to electricity and tourism dollars from Kashmir, apart from selling of Nizam's wealth which by some screwed logic belongs to TSP!
Israel has way more Per capita GDP than palestine. That has not meant that palestinians would like to be Israelis.

Economic growth and Internal security are 2 separate things that should be dealt as such and both need to be improved and one should not be excuse for the lack of other.

[Prem]

Fidel,
Paki wear religious glases24/7 , economic difference for AbDull or abdfool is of no consequences . Assuming your figures and if things remain same , 3x Indian economic prosperity also translate as 23-24 time the GDP of Pakhanland next door. We corss 7T and they will be at 300B. 4% for defence allocation will be equal to their entire GNP. We dont need AbDull to question his sarkar , we ought to wish and aim for AbDulls to slowly fade away in darkenss so we dont have to dirty our hand. Pakisatan, Pakisataniat and Pakisatanis must be made example of so other can learn lesson. We need work toward finishing them off completely for goodness and their sake.

[Gagan]

Silent coup in Pakistan:
First secretaries’ meeting chaired by army chief

ISLAMABAD: Chief of the Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani presided over on Tuesday a meeting of key federal secretaries at the General Headquarters (GHQ) to finalise agenda for the upcoming strategic dialogue with the US administration.

According to sources, federal secretaries for finance, foreign affairs, commerce and agriculture, along with the secretary in charge of information technology and petroleum, attended the meeting.

The meeting was part of a consultative process of civil and military bureaucracy to forge a consensus on key security and economic issues confronting the nation amid ongoing efforts against militancy and for strategic relations with key world powers.

And now the spin.

A secretary said the meeting was originally scheduled to be held at the ministry of foreign affairs, but was subsequently moved to the GHQ. He said it was the first-ever meeting of federal secretaries presided over by a military chief in a civilian set-up.

[Pulikeshi]

So, in a scant 19 years from now, if present economic and population growth trends continue, we will be in a different league altogether, and that difference will be clearly perceptible even to a Paki AbDull.

Fidel,

Good starting point - here is some more cud to chew on:

1. Why will AbDull sit around and let such prosperity next door be in peace?
   If nothing, at best its incentive for mass migrations eastward, at worst it brings more doom dhamaka.
2. Current GOI strategy is to leverage US/Western interest in the region to manage the situation,
   till such time as GOI feels economically comfortable to handle the situation.
   There are couple of flaws with this approach:
   1. Why will US/Western interest sit around, especially given the economic mess, and let India
      use them to pursue her interest?
   2. AdDull may not pay attention to economics wackonomics given he can grow happy plants in
      Afghanistan and finance his interests to bring down India.
   3. What GDP (for example) is enough for India to manage TSP? We are not talking unification,
      but even in a loose confederacy of independent states in Indian orbit, what will it cost India?
      I somehow suspect, it will be lot more that what German unification cost - will it be a couple
      if trillion dollars? What level of GDP allows India to comfortably handle that situation?

I'll repeat this again and again, we need to analyze the cost for the option to do something versus do nothing. Right now, Indian cultural lethargy tends to focus the option to do nothing. Not because it is superior solution but because it hurts the head less.

[Joseph]

1. Why will AbDull sit around and let such prosperity next door be in peace?
   If nothing, at best its incentive for mass migrations eastward, at worst it brings more doom dhamaka.
2. Current GOI strategy is to leverage US/Western interest in the region to manage the situation,
   till such time as GOI feels economically comfortable to handle the situation.
   There are couple of flaws with this approach:
   1. Why will US/Western interest sit around, especially given the economic mess, and let India
      use them to pursue her interest?
   2. AdDull may not pay attention to economics wackonomics given he can grow happy plants in
      Afghanistan and finance his interests to bring down India.
   3. What GDP (for example) is enough for India to manage TSP? We are not talking unification,
      but even in a loose confederacy of independent states in Indian orbit, what will it cost India?
      I somehow suspect, it will be lot more that what German unification cost - will it be a couple
      if trillion dollars? What level of GDP allows India to comfortably handle that situation?

Pulikeshi,

Bangladesh was allowed to go its own way after 1971, yet you are suggesting that India take a proactive approach if/when Pakistan fractures in the future.

There would need to be a huge change in the mindset - POV among Pakistanis to accept being in a loose confederacy in Indian orbit. I can't see that happening anytime soon.

[Pulikeshi]

Pulikeshi,

Bangladesh was allowed to go its own way after 1971, yet you are suggesting that India take a proactive approach if/when Pakistan fractures in the future.

There would need to be a huge change in mindset - POV among Pakistanis to accept being in a loose confederacy in Indian orbit. I can't see that happening anytime soon.

Good point, but Bangladesh is landlocked territorially. It has its nuisance value and could be better managed by India,
but India does not face a 'mortal-combat' with Bangladesh.

Further, it is not the same on the western front for India. TSP exists in a strategic zone.
History has shown the cost of not proactively managing this region.

If India does not craft an end-game, one will be crafted for her.
As far as mindset, if you got them by the proverbials, the rest will follow!

[Prem]

Keep in mind that if GOI take the initiative and spend couple of Billions ( no need for Trillion), there are forces in the region which can see off good percentage of Pakjabi jihadi districts/kabila population on specially charted flights to jannah and India dont have to dirty her hand while recovering the lost territory occupied by Abdulls.

[Airavat]

Colonel Khushwaqt-ul-Mulk, who died on February 12 aged 96, was a scion of the royal dynasty which once ruled Chitral, a princely state of British India; as a soldier he took on the Faqir of Ipi and protected his nephew from the vengeance of a jilted Nawab of Dir.

Chitral is Pakistan's northernmost district. Bounded on the north-west by the Hindu Kush, on the north-east by the Karakoram and on the south by the Hindu Raj range, it acceded to Pakistan on the country's creation in 1947.

Chitral was part of J&K State in that it's ruler paid tribute to the Maharajas, like the other petty chieftains of Gilgit-Baltistan. Although it has been made part of NWFP, Chitral does not have a Pashtun population and it's people have more in common with Gilgit-Baltistan.

Chitral will be one of India's land bridges to Afghanistan.

[shiv]

Typically in any human population - mango man or mango Abdul will not be able to "see" prosperity that is hundreds or thousands of miles away in order to be "jealous'. He can only hear stories of wealth elsewhere ("The streets of London are paved with gold") and know that he and all the people around him are not wealthy. He will know that tapping that faraway wealth will mean emigration, leaving behind the safety net of family and village. Only in the most trying circumstances will entire families with women and children move. Otherwise it is typically able bodied men.

However if he has a fabulously wealthy village headman, or is able to visit a nearby place housing fabulously wealthy people he will be able to see that wealth and may have some aspirations of becoming wealthy - knowing that wealth is possible nearby. He will want a share of that wealth in the form of a job - i.e he will give something in exchange for a share of wealth. So if he gets steady employment with a fabulously wealthy person - he may still not feel jealous - he may in fact show great loyalty to that wealthy person because of his privilege in being useful to that person.

But if a very large number of people are poor and a huge number cannot get jobs of means to survive it ends up reflecting back in the villages. "Crunch times" for a family that is already poor comes with the death or injury of a wage earner. Overnight the family is poorer. Over weeks or months of poverty the people who are must vulnerable to illness (and maybe death) like small children begin to die. Typical response to this sort of situation is migration of men to wealthier areas looking for jobs requiring the low skills they have (typically low paying jobs). If jobs are available they congregate in slums and either manage to send money back home, or eventually start a family in the slum. When the supply of men seeking jobs is far higher than the employment available you start getting crime. In a sense this creates more jobs - because the wealthy respond to crime by creating jobs like security men or a police force. But when the supply of able bodied males is far larger than can be handled you have an uncertain, possibly explosive situation.

Ideally this situation must be avoided by
1) reduction in the rate of growth of population - birth control and birth spacing
2) generation of employment locally in the villages
3) A mechanism for addressing grievances

The situation in Pakistan is one of predominantly feudal estates where entire villages are in land owned by someone else. Stability over the centuries has been there because the land has been kind enough to give the residents enough to eat even as the wealth goes to the landowner. Islamic society (and Hindu for that matter) in fact encourage the acceptance of what one has as either being one's fate or what Allah has pre ordained. Imbalances are not to be messed with. The average Pakistani is a fairly docile God fearing person who accepts that it is Allah's will that he should live as he is, Just as it is Allah's will that the land owner owns land. All the wealth and happiness will come in jannat. For those who believe in religion you can see what a huge con-job religion does to populations of people It is not surprising that the fathers of communism understood that religion can be a massive con job. But as long as people are under the spell of the concept of a "God" they can be controlled and asked to eat more sh1t than is their fair share. That is what is happening in Pakistan. In fact a lot of tribulation in Pakistan is blamed on Hindus. Hindus, massacres of Muslims, massive migrations etc are all the fault of India and her bigoted Hindus. This is a story that has been sold to the people of Pakistan and to tsk-tsking sympathetic westerners including the likes of Stephen Cohen. This is the story so far.

But what of the future? The facts are a repeat of what I have written before in my ebook. Modern medicine did something in the 20th century that was never achieved before -i.e it reduced the death rates of infants and children. Most people outside of medicine will find the achievement difficult to comprehend because they will not know how many killer diseases there are that kill infants and children and how they have virtually been eliminated - primarily by vaccination and public health measures. Human populations started exploding in the 20th century because of this. Countries with huge populations have desperately sought to reduce the rate at which children are born because they are no longer dying and it is a huge job to provide food and employment to the millions who are being born (and not dying). Those of us who admire China today rarely mention the draconian measures that China undertook to stabilize its population growth. We see the shimmering glass towers of Shanghai more than we "see" the hundreds of millions of Chinese who were NOT born because of a one child policy.

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan has no political will or power to check population growth in Pakistan, which is growing rapidly - with the growth rate being among the highest in the world. And along with this population growth - human development indicators are getting worse. Such growth indicates that there will be a huge mass of men who will be ready to take to crime if nothing else is available. The task of managing them should be left to the Pakistani government/Army. We need to close our borders to migration and shoot anyone who tries to come across.

It is certain that this population will be a burden to Pakistan. If Pakistan is divided up, they will be a burden to the daughter states, and if those daughter states are going to beg India for help they will be a burden on India. How Pakistan will handle this population remains to be seen. The problem is not new - it is at least 30 years old. Thus far Pakistan has handled them by directing their ire against India, or the Soviets. Pakistan should have foreseen this and should have started addressing the problem in the 1970s itself. But the US (which does not care for any foreigner other than the "center of gravity") kept the Pakistani wealthy in a state of well fed happiness as long as Abdul was cannon fodder for America's wars. America is now desperately paying the Paki army to get their own Abduls under control. The American method is bribes and military control and this is being followed by the Paki army. What is required is peace, settlement, education, jobs and birth control. None of the latter are happening. While NWFP go into turmoil Paki cities are becoming megapolises like Karachi and to a lesser extent Lahore where the government does not exert full authority except in protected conclaves.

India may not be much better - but it is certainly a little better and there is widespread acceptance of facts like birth control and development. This has little to do with relative percapita GDP. The same problems will exist whether Indian per capita GDP is 0.9x Pakistan's or 9x Pakistan's per capita GDP. We have to look after ourselves and it is Pakistan's job to manage Pakis.

Pakistan has become such a nightmare that merely defeating the Paki army and RAPE is not enough - the population is a problem. But the Paki army and the US have still not managed to break out of the vicious circle where the US pays the Paki army to use its Abduls against the US's enemies while some are aimed against India.

[Malayappan]

New approach in ties with US from the Dawn
This should actually read paki wishlist from the US. Recommend reading in full - a) to get an understanding of what pakistan wants from US, and b) to note how much of this US concedes.
The points made in the article in ATOL by MKB tie in quite well with this.

[jrjrao]

As expected, I am not able to find any mention of the big news about the Headley guilty plea in either Shrilleen's nutty rag-e-Nation, or in the earth-e-shaster. The same was the case earlier with this man was arrested, and when he was indicted.

Total silence, it seems. A small mention in Geo TV web page, and an equally small mention in the DailyTimes. They all are following the party line of swallowing this story.

The more naked the Pakis get, the tighter they will shut their eyes.

But do note that the same journos and RAPES and the Khurshid Kasuri and whatsit snotty FM Quereshi types will whine -- everytime they run into an Indian journo -- about how it is the Indian news media that never separates itself from its govt. in its reporting.

[shiv]

Here is an article posted earlier by Arun Gupta
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... mism-hh-04

The areas of Pakistan in which insurgency has taken hold have seriously lagged behind those which have fared better in economic terms.

Political scientists have long worried about the distress produced in societies in which there are sharp income differences. Somewhat belatedly economists have come to the same conclusion. In Pakistan these economic disparities have resulted in great violence against the state and the citizens of the country. Some of the elements within society have been behind violence mostly for ideological, reasons. Insurgency in Pakistan has been caused by the merger of several different streams. If we look at the growth of extremism in the country we see that it is concentrated in the more backward parts of the country.

India needs to ensure that Pakistan remains backward and that its population keeps on increasing in the backward areas. I believe India can counter the US-Pakistani army alliance forever by arming itself and ensuring that as long as the US is funding Pakistani arms India will never back down or reduce arms build up, causing Pakis to beg for arms and the US to supply those arms while the backward areas of Pakistan go undeveloped.

The backward areas of Pakistan must see a huge population explosion that must be left to the Pakistan army and its US ally to sort out. Whether we howl "Hindutva" or "Secularism" it does not matter as long as the pious see it as a threat. But for our own good, we must ensure equitable distribution and justice for all in India.

[Pulikeshi]

India may not be much better - but it is certainly a little better and there is widespread acceptance of facts like birth control and development. This has little to do with relative percapita GDP. The same problems will exist whether Indian per capita GDP is 0.9x Pakistan's or 9x Pakistan's per capita GDP. We have to look after ourselves and it is Pakistan's job to manage Pakis.

Shiv,

Agree with the ratio per capita GDP argument. However, need to point out that purely 'panchsheel' view may not help India much with this situation. TSP will keep failing to manage the Pakis and keep producing 'cannon fodder' to send over the border to hurt India's interest. As long as India want to remain a power, there will be others that will try to keep TSP from failing, but a pain in India's rear side.

Bad analogy perhaps, but doctor if a limb is failing, the rest of the body cannot say, it is the job of the limb to fix itself. Pakistan is not a nation, it is a 'limb' an appendage that has been artificially kept alive. When the artificial forces that keep it alive deplete, natural law takes over and India will be left to deal with the stink, whether she likes to or not!

Unification is out of the question, and as far as I can gather, Pakistan is not going to get drunk and end up next to Australia in the morning. Meaning, it is not going away anytime soon. India does not have the kajones to jdam it out of existence either. Given this, as far as I can see what ever the interim solution, even if there is a war, engaging the Pasthuns to kick the Pakjabi rearside, etc. there needs to be a way to win peace. Only option I see is a loose confederacy of states that is in the orbit of India.

My question is simple what is the cost? What is the cost of not doing this?

[shiv]

One more point.

Long ago when BRM was in its heyday I was sent a serious book by a US entity for review and I promptly reviewed it and put it online. I am unable find that review right now, but the book was about the US view of is role in Asia.

I think people do not understand this when they speak of US interests and US power. The US sees its role in Asia as "Holding the ring". That means that the power balances that there between the nations of Asia can be likened to a circle of people holding a large ring. Each individual is a nation. Now if any particular individual (nation) holding the ring gets too powerful - the ring can be pulled away to one side. The US engages every single nation in Asia and uses that engagement to hold the ring" - that is to ensure that no nation gets so much power over other to pull the ring in any particular direction. The US's idea is to see who is getting too strong for his boots and to infuse money and arms and support a rival nation that has become weak in comparison so the "ring" is stable and the "balance of power" is maintained.

In real terms it means that the US sees Asia as balances of power (each power exerts some pull on the ring). if some particular nation gets more power over someone else, the US will do something to reduce that power. At the same time the US by remaining "engaged" with every nation will try not to make enemies even as it arms and funds an opposing nation. The US will talk peace and harmony, but peace and harmony are only at the cost of no nation becoming too big for its boots leading to a situation that the US cannot handle.

"Balance of power" is what the US wants
"Balance of power" is bad news for India that is trying to grow economically and militarily
"Balance of power" is good news for Pakistan because the US seeks to prop up Pakistan to "hold the ring" and balance power.

What prevents China from taking over Taiwan. "Balance of power" of course with the US "holding the ring". A world power like Japan is kept in check by US engagement.

So to come to the point that i want to make I think we need a shift in the way we see Pakistan. Pakistan is no just the Islamic nation state carved out of mother India blah blah blah. That is the historic emotional and anachronistic viewpoint. Pakistan needs to be seen as an alliance of Pakistan with the US - a "Pakistan-US" complex that exerts a role in imposing US policy in Asia. Pakistani RAPE wanted it that way and the US has been a grateful and obliging partner.

I believe that if we can see Pakistan in this way - a viewpoint that I believe reflects reality - we can be much more realistic about how to respond to the challenges posed by Pakistan.

[shiv]

Shiv,

Agree with the ratio per capita GDP argument. However, need to point out that purely 'panchsheel' view may not help India much with this situation. TSP will keep failing to manage the Pakis and keep producing 'cannon fodder' to send over the border to hurt India's interest. As long as India want to remain a power, there will be others that will try to keep TSP from failing, but a pain in India's rear side.

Bad analogy perhaps, but doctor if a limb is failing, the rest of the body cannot say, it is the job of the limb to fix itself. Pakistan is not a nation, it is a 'limb' an appendage that has been artificially kept alive. When the artificial forces that keep it alive deplete, natural law takes over and India will be left to deal with the stink, whether she likes to or not!

Unification is out of the question, and as far as I can gather, Pakistan is not going to get drunk and end up next to Australia in the morning. Meaning, it is not going away anytime soon. India does not have the kajones to jdam it out of existence either. Given this, as far as I can see what ever the interim solution, even if there is a war, engaging the Pasthuns to kick the Pakjabi rearside, etc. there needs to be a way to win peace. Only option I see is a loose confederacy of states that is in the orbit of India.

My question is simple what is the cost? What is the cost of not doing this?

Pulikeshi - my views on this are partially addressed by the next post which has appeared immediately below your post and immediately above this one- i.e the US role.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 96#p841096

We need to defeat US plans and designs before we can impose any will on our own region - no matter how benign and righteous our will might be.

[Prem]

The Strategic Dialogue “represents the shared commitment of both nations to build a partnership based on mutual respect and trust,” the US State Department said. –Photo by APP

New approach in ties with US ‘RENEWED PROCESS’
New approach in ties with US WASHINGTON: The partnership between the United States and Pakistan “goes far beyond security”, said the US State Department while announcing the first ministerial level strategic dialogue between the two countries.
“High-level officials from both governments will come to the table to discuss issues of common concern and shared responsibility,” the State Department said. “Topics for discussion will include economic development, water and energy, education, communications and public diplomacy, agriculture, and security.”

This is going beyond bad joke.
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... -930-zj-01

[Prem]

Baniya and the bomb
Jawed Naqvi
(WTH, A inbred Paki has to do with debate in india)

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... -830-zj-08
It comes as a surprise then that there is a debate raging in India about a bill the government wants to introduce in parliament to grant virtual immunity to foreign suppliers of civil nuclear power units. The debate centres on a few key issues but the primary objection raised by the opposition, including the left and the right of the spectrum, is that the monetary compensation in the event of a nuclear disaster caused by an act of terrorism, by a natural calamity or by an accident was 100 times less than the $10bn liability fixed in the US for a similar contingency. Opposition groups have another bone to pick: foreign suppliers have been assigned no liability even in doling out the meagre compensation. This is the baniya approach to disaster management. Financial accounting for an unaccounted number of lives at risk from a manmade disaster with loose or serious change on offer is heartless. In any case, I am not sure that there is as much as a penny kept as compensation for similar or worse consequence accruing (a balance-sheet term!) from an actual nuclear war that both countries have threatened each other with.

[arun]

Baniya and the bomb
Jawed Naqvi
(WTH, A inbred Paki has to do with debate in india)

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... -830-zj-08

Jawed Naqvi is very much an Indian.

[Prem]

^^^ Jawed Naqvi is Indian.

No indian will ever work for Pakistan or Paki entity engaged in vicious lies and propaganda against India.

[sum]

^^^ Jawed Naqvi is Indian.

No indian will ever work for Pakistan or Paki entity engaged in vicious lies and propaganda against India.

Ummm, sadly many do.

Few coming to mind are:
Abdul Ruff ( whom a BRFite had confirmed as Indian and earlier prof at CIEFIL)
Jawed Naqvi
Shahid Bilal
Bhatkal brothers
D-company

etc
etc

[CRamS]

New approach in ties with US from the Dawn
This should actually read paki wishlist from the US. Recommend reading in full - a) to get an understanding of what pakistan wants from US, and b) to note how much of this US concedes.
The points made in the article in ATOL by MKB tie in quite well with this.

Man, that is one heck of a wish list (if I recall first articulated by Jihadi madam Lodhi and wife beater). I wonder if TSP actually believes that US will conceede those demands. And as they sit across the table and make these demands, I wonder of Hilary & Co will be looking at each other and giggle wondering if these Pakis take them to be some kind of idiots. But the very fact that US is sitting down and talking the scum is a rewarding of terrorists.

[anupmisra]

The Aha! Moment:

Taliban talks halted by Pakistan arrests: UN envoy

Former UN special representative to Afghanistan, Kai Eide, accused Pakistan on Friday of arresting key Taliban leaders in a deliberate move to stop secret peace talks, in a BBC interview.

Eide held talks with senior Taliban figures but said that these had ended when Pakistan made a series of high-profile arrests, AFP reports.

“The Pakistanis did not play the role they should have played. They must have known about this,” he said.

“I don't believe these people were arrested by coincidence. They must have known who they were, what kind of role they were playing — and you see the result today.”

Aha!