Why cant the Gorshkov accommodate the Su ? Any specific reason mentioned ?chetak wrote:The IN would have very much liked the Naval SU. But unfortunately neither the gorshkov nor the Indian carrier under construction can accommodate the Naval SU
I wonder how much even the US super carriers can accommodate.chetak wrote:The MiG 29K was a compromise.Philip wrote: As mentioned in several posts above,even a MK-2 naval LCA will not suffice for the future of the IN's carriers,pl. read in detail the OZ study.We need a heavy multi-role fighter like the SU-33/naval PAK-FA,that can dominate the ocean's skies and deliver any kind of weaponload at a range of at least 1000km from the carrier,given the increasing range of anti-ship missiles.
The IN would have very much liked the Naval SU. But unfortunately neither the gorshkov nor the Indian carrier under construction can accommodate the Naval SU
But if that cannot be rectified on Gorshkov , can we have a heavy lift on ADS which can accommodate Su-33 type of heavy aircraft ?Rahul M wrote:austin, IIRC the reason given was weight capacity of the lifts.
Rahul M saar,Rahul M wrote:
austin, IIRC the reason given was weight capacity of the lifts.
We may be the only customer who has ever ordered a carrier borne fighter based on the evaluation of a single solitary prototype!!!Austin wrote:^^^ I dont think there was some grand game plan played by Ruskies to force us to buy Mig-29K over Su-33 , perhaps we do not know the real reason for it.
But the Russkies did benefit in that they have ordered 24 Mig-29K for their own carrier.
Not true , the existing Su-33 will go through a mid life upgrade and will remain operational till 2025 , plus they are ordering 24 Mig-29K probably making good use of open production line and giving some contract to the financially hit Mig.nrshah wrote:^^^^
Exactly, if that would have been the case, russies would not have coverted to Mig 29K... Recent reports suggest they will be phasing out su 33 and disassemble the assembly line in favor of mig 29k which as higher orders (45 from IN and 24 for RuN)
Well we were the only one who took great risk converted the Su-30K into MKI which as we see now is paying rich dividend , not to mention Sukhoi fortunes changed after success of MKI and many other countries opted for a custom built fighter.chetak wrote:We may be the only customer who has ever ordered a carrier borne fighter based on the evaluation of a single solitary prototype!!!Austin wrote:^^^ I dont think there was some grand game plan played by Ruskies to force us to buy Mig-29K over Su-33 , perhaps we do not know the real reason for it.
But the Russkies did benefit in that they have ordered 24 Mig-29K for their own carrier.
I would imagine that its because Gorshkov is significantly smaller than the Kuznetsov, and perhaps they dont have enough runway space to accommodate a safe takeoff. The SU-33's MTOW is 33000 kgs, while the Mig-29K is 24500 kgs. 8.5 tonnes less. So probably correspondingly shorter takeoff run, and less difficulty regarding arrestors?Austin wrote:Why cant the Gorshkov accommodate the Su ? Any specific reason mentioned ?chetak wrote:The IN would have very much liked the Naval SU. But unfortunately neither the gorshkov nor the Indian carrier under construction can accommodate the Naval SU
It seems in the hanger a folded Su-33 has a smaller footprint and hence occupies smaller space than Mig-29K.
nrshah wrote:^^^^
Exactly, if that would have been the case, russies would not have coverted to Mig 29K... Recent reports suggest they will be phasing out su 33 and disassemble the assembly line in favor of mig 29k which as higher orders (45 from IN and 24 for RuN)
Also, Su 33 to me not as superior as Mig 29K. Ofcourse it may have higher range and weapons load, But with STOBAR configuration, much of payload is compromised. Besides avionics are no where comparable to mig 29K (of course that can be changed)
Good. Now we need to stop being gullible, and understand that its a buyers market!Every body all over the world is being attracted like flies to the markets of the gullible Indian who has such a fat purse in his house.
http://en.rian.ru/russia/20091009/156412003.htmlNot true , the existing Su-33 will go through a mid life upgrade and will remain operational till 2025 , plus they are ordering 24 Mig-29K probably making good use of open production line and giving some contract to the financially hit Mig.
As i have also mentioned in Mil acquisition thread, It was more of forced decision since the deal was integral part of carrier and no one was willing to to sell us carrier at that point of time.We may be the only customer who has ever ordered a carrier borne fighter based on the evaluation of a single solitary prototype!!!
Ya, that is reality... We can afford to pay now... See when we are in need, our friends help us but when we are in well to do condition, all transaction are done at commercial terms even with friends. When we has sluggish economy, Soviet Union extended us generous help at lower cost and very soft credit terms... Now we are capable of paying why should it continue the same way? And Russians inspite of higher cost are cheaper than American / EU.. take example of Mig 29K - 29 for 1.2Bn USD that is 41 Bn USD...The ruskies no longer see us as a third world country but country yokels with a fat purse.
The Guy killed was a close friend of one of my friends.My friend called me on saturday and told me about this.Ashish J wrote:In a freak accident, the Navy guns down one of its own
http://www.ndtv.com/news/cities/in-a-fr ... -17789.php
With Indian pockets traditionally being wide open, it still remains the market it always was.ASPuar wrote:Good. Now we need to stop being gullible, and understand that its a buyers market!Every body all over the world is being attracted like flies to the markets of the gullible Indian who has such a fat purse in his house.
Pak-FA is too large to serve abroad IAC 1/2 or Gorshkov unless IN plans to deploy new carriers with catas, plus it will take a lot more than a year to modify it for naval purpose. Plus If Mig-29k/Su-33 is any indicator it will take at least 6 years of testing and modifications prior to deployment on a carrier.Philip wrote: Interestingly,the Russians are pulling out all plugs in order to get the PAK-FA inducted on time.PM Putin is personally following it up (a lesson for our PM/DM what?!).Putin has said that the prototypes should complete at least 2000 test flights.Using a novel approach to accelerating development,there is a prototype of the aircraft,T-50KNS,which does not fly but is used to validate electricsl systems,etc. on the ground.This allowed the prototype to achieve an AoA of 24 degrees on only its third flight.The plan is to see the PAK-FA in service by 2015.If so,even a year or so later,a naval version will definitely be available by the end of the decade to serve on both future Russian and Indian carriers.
Aha of course as far as you and shankarosky are concerned it is all the Indian navy's faultbut to buy the Gorshkov and did a poor job of evaluating the amount of work that it would entail.
Sanku wrote:Philip wins the debate just with that above point I think;Philip wrote:I base my views upon the indecision of the GOI/MOD despite all our protestations about indigenisation being our goal.
It does not matter what Philip's or Katik's or my own preferences/biases are -- what matters is that at least well informed folks like BRFites understand the core of the matter -- which is that the Mil-Ind complex is failing to provide necessary hardware to the Armed forces repeatedly -- the result of which is that great effort becomes wasted due to slipped time -- and a great blame due to that lies with MoD for using OFB and DRDO as Govt Jobs creating agency rather than mission mode agencies of national importance.Manish_Sharma wrote:Sanku wrote:Philip >> I base my views upon the indecision of the GOI/MOD despite all our protestations about indigenisation being our goal.
Philip wins the debate just with that above point I think;
Sorry Sanku can't agree with this. Kartik would win even without a debate, as we all know that Philip has never ever for once condemned (or even accepted) the Russian faults. Be it T90 ToT or Gorshkov. Instead he and Shankar always rationalise these russky games or blame it on Mod/IA/IN/IAF.
But still I am happy that Philip provoked Kartik to write up another of his excellent posts which are always such a joy to read.
MORMUGAO (GOA): The maritime security of the country's west coast got a boost on Wednesday with the induction of a state-of-the-art new generation Offshore Patrol Vessel (OPV) — ICGS ‘Vishwast' — into the Indian Coast Guard (ICG).
‘Vishwast,' which means ‘trustworthy,' is an OPV indigenously designed in-house and built by the Goa Shipyard Limited (GSL), the south Goa-based Defence shipyard, and was formally commissioned into the ICG by Defence Minister A.K. Antony at a ceremony at the GSL on Wednesday.
Goa Chief Minister Digambar Kamat, Secretary Defence (Production) R.K. Singh, Director-General of the Indian Coast Guard Vice Admiral A.K. Chopra, JS (Naval Systems) Gyanesh Kumar, NM Flag Officer Commanding Goa Area Rear Admiral Sudhir Pillai and CMD GSL Rear Admiral (retired) Vineet Bakshi were present at the ceremony.
This OPV is the only vessel of this class in the world with the sophistication, large range of facilities for pollution control, fire fighting, search and rescue and patrolling provided in a 90-metre vessel, GSL officials said.
The ship is primarily designed for patrolling and policing maritime zones, search and rescue operations, maritime surveillance, anti-smuggling operations, pollution response against oil spillages and external fire-fighting.
Focus on coastal security
Reiterating the Centre's thrust on coastal security, Mr. Antony said: “The government has approved all that the Coast Guard has asked for in terms of assets and manpower so that their capabilities are enhanced.
“In all, 14 new Coast Guard stations have been approved recently, and fast track procurement of ships, boats and aircraft has been permitted.”
He urged the Coast Guard to be more professional and committed to duty.
“The delineation of the continental shelf and the resulting increase in the Exclusive Economic Zone mean that the Indian Coast Guard will have more sea area to monitor,” Mr. Antony said, calling upon the Coast Guard to rise to the occasion and ensure that response time to emergency situations was further reduced.
He praised the GSL for efficiency and asked it to sustain its performance and focus on delivery period reduction and cost-competitiveness as regards defence shipbuilding.
Modernisation drive
In his welcome remarks, Rear Admiral Bakshi said the GSL was on a modernisation drive that included the installation of a shiplift and the creation of GRP ship production infrastructure.
Do you really think the guy who posted them on MP is the owner?RKumar wrote:MUST SEE PICS OF Admiral Gorshkov Vs Vikramaditya
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ost4821907
These should be added to BR site of course with the permission of the pictures owner .... MODs pls check it...
RKumar wrote:MUST SEE PICS OF Admiral Gorshkov Vs Vikramaditya
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ost4821907
These should be added to BR site of course with the permission of the pictures owner .... MODs pls check it...
I like the bottom lineAdmiral Noman Bashir, brother of the Pakistani foreign secretary, Salman Bashir, who was in New Delhi to hold talks with India, recently said, “The Indian navy’s current force structure and future expansion plans reflect its hegemonic mindset to further flex its muscles and become a ‘blue water’ navy.”
Yes, India must have ‘blue water’ navy; but that is not a reflection of its “hegemonic mindset to further flex its muscles....” Bashir, despite being the navy chief, displayed a lamentable lack of knowledge and understanding of the naval situation in Asia.
Compared to Pakistan’s 567 nautical mile Arabian Sea coastline, India has a 4,104 nautical mile coastline with the Arabian Sea, the Gulf of Mannar and the Bay of Bengal. That makes India’s coastline, approximately, 7.23 times bigger than Pakistan’s. India, therefore, cannot afford to have a tiny navy with archaic machines to protect its territorial waters.
The differences in role, operation, tactical doctrine and deployment of these two naval forces need to be analysed carefully. According to Jane’s World Navies 2009, the Pakistani navy’s tactical doctrine includes, among other things, “aggressive deployment of submarines to destroy Indian navy’s major surface combatants”. In naval parlance, the Pakistani naval doctrine emphasizes “fleet-in-being”(guerrilla-warfare). Islamabad’s submarine assets would be a major factor in a combat with the Indian navy as the enemy carrier group would be extremely vulnerable to underwater operations within a limited combat radius. Understandably, therefore, the overall operational task of the Indian navy is daunting. However, India’s self-imposed diplomatic and defensive restraint does not allow its navy to go beyond limited sea-denial capability.
Theoretically, however, the Indian navy has the ability to undertake a two-fold role: sea control and sea denial, say up to 1,500 nautical miles from its operational base. Sea control is essentially about cooperation with littoral and other friendly navies. For sea denial, however, submarine and anti-submarine capabilities would be essential to counter any hostile manoeuvre by non-littoral fighting ships. Being larger and more populous, India has its own share of problems, given the hostile environment. It is imperative that the Indian navy pre-empts hostile guerrillas in sea and secures the shore.
The Indian navy’s vision of a “force architecture centred around 140 to 145 vessels by 2020”, of which “more than half will be ocean-going and the remainder assigned to coastal duties”, makes a lot of sense. The only caveat should be to have more indigenous warships on the naval inventory. With the growing threat of piracy, the rapid modernization of the Chinese navy and Islamabad’s fleet-in-being acquisitions, it is now time for some restructuring in the Indian navy. A balanced naval force, consisting of missile destroyers, frigates and corvettes, based on at least two aircraft carrier battle groups, supplemented by submarines and aviation assets equipped with long-range, precision-guided weapons capable of anti-ship and land-attack missions, is compulsory.
Admiral Bashir would perhaps be better off managing Pakistan’s coastline instead of eyeing India’s shoreline.
With IN not being able to voice a public opinion or response to Bashirs comments (without getting embroiled in controversy) this article serves a good 'slap in the face' for our neighbors to mind their own freaking business..Thanks for the pics mate!Kavu wrote:Fastest way to get our subfleet numbers up?
Greece to resell German submarine: minister
http://www.expatica.com/de/news/german- ... 31670.html
Though I personally would like to see our next generation Diesel Submarines to be more than 3000 tons.
)? Carl_T wrote:RKumar wrote:MUST SEE PICS OF Admiral Gorshkov Vs Vikramaditya
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ost4821907
These should be added to BR site of course with the permission of the pictures owner .... MODs pls check it...
