The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

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Amber G.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by Amber G. »

Rudradev wrote:.. I'm sorry. .
Apologies accepted.
Some of the questions you asked, could be answered if you read my and other posts a little more carefully so I am not going to respond to everything but let me touch on to one point. Wrt to "challenge things" you "have actually written" I did actually did that and quoted your odd statement:
"This is not the People's Lepubric of China where all discussion must be confined to the prescribed narrow channels, and all criticism against the government must be stifled under the pretext of constituting a "self goal".
The points are so obvious (Eg I am not an admin so my reco can hardly be called 'stifling' ..not to mention "Guilty plea by Headley does not imply shame to India" is equal to " stifling all criticism against a government" ) that one does not have to point it out explicitly.

In any case more of this would be OT .. should go in some other thread.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by sum »


Its still in future. Not a done deal. I think they delayed the filing till now, hoping to get real access but were stymied and strung along all the while. Then the US pulls this plea deal trick and doesn't keep its bargain. The problem is India cannot accuse the US of perfidy even though it knows it because the MMS govt is committed to the US polices.

What India should do is roll up the US networks in India which they already know exist. Maybe start with the US citizens press agents in India.
With our topmost echolons so blatantly penetrated by the US, is there even a chance in hell of the latter statement happening?

All i can say after this "amazing" saga is that the worst possible nightmares of BRFites on the aftermath of 26/11 have come true:

India does diddly squat to avenge 26/11, leans on US to punish MuNNA , tries some nonsense "dossier diplomacy" which makes the country look like a punching bag/wimp ( which GoI is), peace loving PM suddenly decides to make love with Pak after no results come out of dossier-gate, Pak resumes its old activities with full flow even ruthlessly hunting down Indians in Kabul and finally, US also gives the one-finger salute leaving India looking like the biggest jack @$$ on planet earth.

We have already hit the nadir of self-respect and "world image". Wonder what more is left to see in the 4 years of this govt. :( :|
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by manjgu »

Amber G... fully agree with you.

Plea bargain is an established component of US legal system ( and i believe already intoduced in indian legal system) to expedite justice ( compare conviction of headley with trial of Shri kasab ji ). whats wrong if a convict has taken the available legal option.

we did not arrest Headley ... unkil did and so whats wrong if it uses Headley as it deems fit... indian crying is extremly juvinile and shows how immature we are as a nation. US knows how to protect its interests while we think US will fight on our behalf. we refuse to learn our lessons that till we set our house in order nobody will help us. we have to fight our own battle. We get offended at India Pak equal equal .. why should the yankeses not get offended at US India equal equal??

Double agent or triple agent does not matter... unkil arrested him.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by ramana »

AmberG there is no attempt to pull = =.

If you see the debate is between both of you and I didn't want it escalating on a non-issue of Headley not being charged in India. PC's statement shows he will be charged as needed.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by RamaY »

Is unkil archestrating this whole thing, to let TSP go off the ? Now TSP can put all the blame on Headly and get off hook of Indian pressure.

It is like the tail (TSP) wagging the dog (Unkil), or is it the dog that is creating this maaya.

Give GOI some well-trapped-strategic-agreements as bait; and strengthen the mad dogs around it. Tomorrow another Headly can do another recci and blow-up one of nuclear power plants and there will be no-liability protection to worry about, I guess.

India should show USA the door, if it doesn't extradite Headly, who confessed for 11/26. It is like India arresting Bin Laden and telling USA that it cannot extradite him and promisses him no death penalty :x :x :x
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by ramana »

The Tribune, Chandigarh, 20 March 2010

SOURCE

The Headley worry
Confirming India’s worst fears

Pakistani-American Lashkar-e-Toiba operative David Coleman Headley, accused of plotting the 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks and conspiring to target a Danish newspaper, has dodged death sentence by pleading guilty before a US court in Chicago. By changing his plea, he has not only evidently escaped the gallows, but has also obtained an assurance from the US that he would not be extradited to India or Pakistan. That strengthens the suspicion that he was a double agent on the rolls of the US who turned rogue after being brainwashed by the jihadis he was asked to infiltrate. The 49-year-old Headley was earlier arrested in 1998 for conspiring to smuggle heroin into the US from Pakistan. But he cooperated and got away with only a two-year jail term and was sent to conduct surveillance operations for the Drug Enforcement Administration in Pakistan and allegedly came in contact with LeT operatives there.

But he may not be able to get away that lightly this time, considering that he has admitted guilty on all 12 counts on which he was charged. These include all six counts of conspiracy involving bombing public places in India, murdering and maiming persons in India and providing material support to foreign terrorist plots and the LeT. Equally significant is the fact that he has admitted that he aided and abetted the murder of US citizens in India. He may now spend his entire life behind bars.

US law forbids access to convicts without their consent. That means that the India security agencies may not be able to grill him. But his admission of guilt confirms all that India had been saying about Pakistan’s involvement in the dastardly act. He attended training camps in Pakistan operated by Lashkar on five separate occasions between 2002 and 2005 and later travelled to India five times to conduct surveillance. The least the US can do is to unravel the plot completely and destroy its roots which go deeply into Pakistan. :shock:
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by Gerard »

US law forbids access to convicts without their consent. That means that the India security agencies may not be able to grill him
But nothing stops the plea bargain from including a provision for interrogation by Indian officials.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by CRamS »

ramana:

Don't you think MMS himself loudly and clearly must articulate that last part in bold. His voice will definetly be heard among US elites; at least there will warning, hopefully, and however condescending about "USA loosing India" :-).
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by ramana »

The papers and chatterati including us aere doing that already. The more important thing for MMS is to take steps to ensure it doesnt happen again and not bother to talk about headley /Veadley. Those are small fry for an Indian PM to talk about.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by Sridhar »

The plea agreement specifically includes a requirement that Headley testify in any foreign judicial proceedings when directed by the US Attorney's office.

Here is the exact statement from the Department of Justice
when directed by the United States Attorney’s Office, he will fully and truthfully testify in any foreign judicial proceedings held in the United States by way of deposition, video-conferencing or letters rogatory.
http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/2010/March/10-ag-277.html

The first thing to do on our side is to start judicial proceedings against him and/or send a request to the US DoJ asking for his deposition in an existing case (e.g. in the Kasab case, even though it is at its end and hence it may be optimal to do that during the likely appeals process in the High Court rather than delay the trial court proceedings). After that, he can be made to depose in the case, and that can include his being asked to name individuals A, B and C.

However, the agreement (at least from what is stated in the DoJ statement) seems to rule out his interrogation by our sleuths. The agreement only includes judicial proceedings. And by US law, once he is a convict, he cannot be interrogated against his wishes unless the plea agreement requires it (which it does not).

There is still the rider that it requires the US Attorney Office to direct him to depose in a case, but it will be difficult for the office to deny a letter rogatory given that India has legitimate local standi in several of the 12 charges that he has admitted to in the plea agreement.

I would say that the next step is for the NIA to file cases against him in a designated court ASAP and then initiate steps to get the court to request the US authorities for access to Headley as an accused for crimes for which he has already accepted a plea and also start the process of calling him as a witness for other cases. And the NIA should take the help of the CBI to do this since it is best equipped in dealing with international cases.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by CRamS »

Bakara baby's toothless "anger"; not even a fraction of that towards the real perpetrators the Pakis. I think everybody gains by using Headley and piling anger on the US. It makes them look tough, concerned, and jingoistic. This from the same Bakara who was running helter skelter to protect Pakis after 26/11. She did it for her own reasons, and US is protecting Pakis for their own reasons.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by merlin »

Amber G. wrote:
merlin wrote:Itni takleef kyon? Are you an American citizen that accusing it of possibly being behind 26/11 cause you takleef?
Merlinji: Since you asked the said takleef of me being accused of "possible behind 26/11" is as real as that caused to "Amar Singh" .. hope that answers your question. Rest you can take it to some other thread or other forum as it will become OT here.

Folks what I think is relevant here, and am sorry to repeat obvious part of not scoring self goals are comments which uses/used the news items "Headely Plead guilty" and used direct implication from it to "Shame on India " or "MMS should resign" (These are actual quotes - I am not making them up, and they are not taken out of context) . . As said before, it's valid to criticize any one or hold them accountable, but to be effective it has to be based on relevant event/point. For crying out loud, the plea bargain involves mainly US legal system and Headley and giving credit or criticizing far removed entities on this particular news item is what I was taking exception to.

I hope this helps a little, and does not generate personal attacks on me.
The MMS government must explain if they allowed Kasab to be questioned by the FBI or other US authorities? In exchange for that we still haven't had access to Headley. It has been proved time and again that the US is untrustworthy and will go to any lengths to protect its ally Pakistan often at the cost of Indian lives, yet the MMS government persists in sucking upto it in all matters.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by abhishek_sharma »

merlin wrote: The MMS government must explain if they allowed Kasab to be questioned by the FBI or other US authorities? In exchange for that we still haven't had access to Headley.
The Home Minister addressed this issue in one of the interviews. We gave FBI access to Kasab because we needed their technical help for investigation.
merlin wrote: It has been proved time and again that the US is untrustworthy and will go to any lengths to protect its ally Pakistan often at the cost of Indian lives, yet the MMS government persists in sucking upto it in all matters.
100% True.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by CRamS »

Guys:

Lets get some facts straight. I am no fan of US policy. But one of the reasons why US cannot follow through with full cooperation could very well be India. I mean does anyone have an iota of a doubt that locals of a particular community were involved in 26/11? Now a thorough investigation will have to reveal all this. I mean for sure its TSPA/ISI. But the conspiracy is a lot more complicated than that, and India, at least under the current leadership is simply not prepared to deal with the real truth. Under the circumstances, no point blaming the US. What India wants is a clean indictment of TSPA/ISI, no doubt with good reason, because they are the nerve center. But putting them on the dock means exposing India's 5th column too, and that is a no show as far as current Indian govt goes. Perhaps US realizes this too, their man is at the helm, why would they do anything that would destabilize his leadership?
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by Patni »

Full text of P Chidambaram's statement on Headley plea
Statement By Shri P Chidambaram, Union Home Minister

Yesterday, at the media briefing, I tried to explain the import of the 'plea agreement' between David Coleman Headley and the United States Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois.

Later in the evening, Mr. Eric Holder, Attorney General and Head of the Justice Department of the US Government, called me and we had a long conversation. I am happy to state that the conversation has clarified a number of aspects concerning the plea agreement.

Mr Holder drew pointed attention to the following portion under the Chapter "Cooperation":

Defendant agrees that, when directed by the United States Attorney's Office, he will fully and truthfully participate in any debriefings for the purpose of gathering intelligence or national security information. Defendant further agrees that, when directed by the United States Attorney's Office, he will fully and truthfully testify in any foreign judicial proceedings held in the United States by way of deposition, video conferencing or letters rogatory. Defendant agrees to the postponement of his sentencing until after the conclusion of his cooperation."

It is my understanding that India would be able to obtain access to David Coleman Headley to question him in a properly constituted judicial proceeding. Such judicial proceeding could be either pre-trial or during an inquiry or trial. It is also my understanding that David Coleman Headley is obliged to cooperate fully and truthfully in such proceedings.

The National Investigation Agency (NIA) has already registered FIR No.4 dated 11.11.2009 against David Coleman Headley and Tahawwur Hussain Rana. I have today directed NIA and the other Agencies concerned in the case to quickly prepare the documents necessary to start a judicial proceeding in which Indian Authorities could require David Coleman Headley to answer questions and/or to testify.

There is another aspect of the "plea agreement" which is of enormous significance. The plea agreement is the most damning indictment of the role played by certain persons in Pakistan. In his plea agreement, David Coleman Headley has admitted to conspiring with LeT members A, B, C & D; he has admitted to meeting with and receiving instructions from them; he has admitted to attending training camps organised by the LeT on five separate occasions; he has admitted to meeting in Pakistan with various co-conspirators including but not limited to LeT members; and he has admitted to being privy to the attacks planned in Mumbai and the despatch of a team of attackers by sea.

Pakistan was in a state of denial for many months after the attacks of 26/11. Thereafter, grudgingly and bowing to the pressure applied by India through the dossiers and otherwise, Pakistan initiated proceedings against a few of the persons involved in the conspiracy, even while key conspirators are still at large. The "plea agreement" should spur Pakistan to take action against all the conspirators and bring them to justice. Nothing short of that will be acceptable to India or will satisfy world opinion.

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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by Patni »

Department of Justice Press Release;
For Immediate Release
March 18, 2010 United States Attorney's Office
Northern District of Illinois
Contact: (312) 353-5300

Chicago Resident David Coleman Headley Pleads Guilty to Role in India and Denmark Terrorism Conspiracies
Admits Conducting Surveillance for Lashkar e Tayyiba in Planning 2008 Mumbai Attacks

CHICAGO—David Coleman Headley, a U.S. citizen of partial Pakistani descent, pleaded guilty today to a dozen federal terrorism charges, admitting that he participated in planning the November 2008 terrorist attacks in Mumbai, India, as well as later planning to attack a Danish newspaper. In pleading guilty to all 12 counts that were brought against him in December and were repeated in a subsequent indictment in January, Headley admitted that he attended training camps in Pakistan operated by Lashkar e Tayyiba, a designated foreign terrorist organization, on five separate occasions between 2002 and 2005. In late 2005, Headley received instructions from three members of Lashkar to travel to India to conduct surveillance, which he did five times leading up to the Mumbai attacks three years later that killed six Americans among approximately 164 people and wounded hundreds more.

A written plea agreement containing a detailed recitation of Headley’s participation in the foreign terrorism conspiracies was presented when Headley, 49, of Chicago, changed his plea to guilty this afternoon before U.S. District Judge Harry Leinenweber in Federal Court in Chicago. Headley has cooperated with the Government since he was arrested on Oct. 3, 2009, and the plea agreement states that he “has provided substantial assistance to the criminal investigation, and also has provided information of significant intelligence value.”

In light of Headley’s past cooperation and expected future cooperation, the Attorney General has authorized the U.S. Attorney in Chicago not to seek the death penalty against Headley. When directed by the U.S. Attorney’s office, Headley must fully and truthfully participate in any debriefings for the purpose of gathering intelligence or national security information, and Headley further agrees that, when directed by the United States Attorney’s Office, he will fully and truthfully testify in any foreign judicial proceedings held in the United States by way of deposition, video-conferencing or letters rogatory.

Regarding sentencing, which will be deferred until after the conclusion of Headley’s cooperation, the plea agreement calculates an anticipated advisory sentencing guideline of life in prison. Provided that Headley continues to provide full and truthful cooperation, the Government will ask the Court to grant an unspecified departure {Downward} from the sentencing guidelines, which will be solely up to the Court to decide.

“Today’s guilty plea is a crucial step forward in our efforts to achieve justice for the more than 160 people who lost their lives in the Mumbai terrorist attacks. Working with our domestic and international partners, we will not rest until all those responsible for the Mumbai attacks and the terror plot in Denmark are held accountable,” said Attorney General Eric Holder. “Not only has the criminal justice system achieved a guilty plea in this case, but David Headley is now providing us valuable intelligence about terrorist activities. As this case demonstrates, we must continue to use every tool available to defeat terrorism both at home and abroad.”

Headley pleaded guilty to conspiracy to bomb public places in India; conspiracy to murder and maim persons in India; six counts of aiding and abetting the murder of U.S. citizens in India; conspiracy to provide material support to terrorism in India; conspiracy to murder and maim persons in Denmark; conspiracy to provide material support to terrorism in Denmark; and conspiracy to provide material support to Lashkar.

According to the plea agreement, Headley attended the following training camps operated by Lashkar: a three-week course starting in February 2002 that provided indoctrination on the merits of waging jihad; a three-week course starting in August 2002 that provided training in the use of weapons and grenades; a three-month course starting in April 2003 that taught close combat tactics, the use of weapons and grenades and survival skills; a three-week course starting in August 2003 that taught counter-surveillance skills; and a three-month course starting in December 2003 that provided combat and tactical training.

Mumbai Terror Attacks

After receiving instructions from three Lashkar members in late 2005 to travel to India to conduct surveillance, in February 2006, in Philadelphia, Headley changed his name from Daood Gilani to facilitate his activities on behalf of Lashkar by portraying himself in India as an American who was neither Muslim nor Pakistani. In the early summer of 2006, Headley and two Lashkar members discussed opening an immigration office in Mumbai as a cover for his surveillance activities.

Headley eventually made five extended trips to Mumbai — in September 2006, February and September 2007, and April and July 2008 — each time making videotapes of various potential targets, including those attacked in November 2008. Before each trip, Lashkar members and associates allegedly instructed Headley regarding specific locations where he was to conduct surveillance, and Headley traveled to Pakistan after each trip to meet with Lashkar members and associates, report on the results of his surveillance, and provide the surveillance videos.

Before the April 2008 surveillance trip, Headley met with co-conspirators in Pakistan and discussed potential landing sites in Mumbai for a team of attackers who would arrive by sea. Headley returned to Mumbai with a global positioning system device and took boat trips around the Mumbai harbor and entered various locations into the device, according to the plea agreement.

Starting Nov. 26, 2008, and continuing through Nov. 28, 2008, 10 attackers trained by Lashkar carried out multiple assaults with firearms, grenades and improvised explosive devices against multiple targets in Mumbai, including the Taj Mahal and Oberoi hotels, the Leopold Café, the Chabad House and the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus train station, each of which Headley had scouted in advance, killing approximately 164 victims and wounding hundreds more.

The six Americans killed during the three-day siege are identified in the charges as Ben Zion Chroman, Gavriel Holtzberg, Sandeep Jeswani, Alan Scherr, his daughter Naomi Scherr and Aryeh Leibish Teitelbaum.

In March 2009, Headley made a sixth trip to India to conduct additional surveillance, including of the National Defense College in Delhi, and of Chabad Houses in several cities.

Denmark Terror Plot

Regarding the Denmark terror plot, Headley admitted that in early November 2008, he met with a Lashkar member in Karachi, Pakistan, and was instructed to conduct surveillance of the Copenhagen and Aarhus offices of the Danish newspaper Morgenavisen Jyllands-Posten in preparation for an attack in retaliation for the newspaper’s publication of cartoons depicting the Prophet Mohammed. After this meeting, Headley informed co-defendant Abdur Rehman Hashim Syed (Abdur Rehman), also known as “Pasha,” of his assignment. Abdur Rehman stated to Headley words to the effect that if Lashkar did not go through with the attack, Abdur Rehman knew someone who would. Although not identified by name at the time, Headley later learned this individual to be co-defendant Ilyas Kashmiri. Abdur Rehman previously had told Headley that he had been working with Kashmiri and that Kashmiri was in direct contact with a senior leader for al Qaeda, the plea agreement states.

In late December 2008 and early January 2009, while in Chicago, Headley exchanged emails with Abdur Rehman to continue planning for the attack and to coordinate his travel to Denmark to conduct surveillance. In January 2009, Headley traveled from Chicago to Copenhagen to conduct surveillance of the Jyllands-Posten newspaper offices in Copenhagen and Aarhus and scouted and videotaped the surrounding areas.

In late January 2009, Headley met separately with Abdur Rehman and a Lashkar member in Pakistan to discuss the planned attack on the newspaper and provided them with videos of his surveillance. About the same time, Abdur Rehman provided Headley a video produced by the media wing of al Qaeda in approximately August 2008, which claimed credit for the June 2008 attack on the Danish embassy in Islamabad, Pakistan, and called for further attacks against Danish interests to avenge the publication of the offending cartoons.

In February 2009, Headley and Abdur Rehman meet with Kashmiri in the Waziristan region of Pakistan, where they discussed the video surveillance and ways to carry out the attack. Kashmiri told Headley that he could provide manpower for the operation and that Lashkar’s participation was not necessary. In March 2009, a Lashkar member advised Headley that Lashkar put the newspaper attack on hold because of pressure resulting from the Mumbai attacks. In May 2009, Headley and Abdur Rehman again met with Kashmiri in Waziristan. Kashmiri told Headley to meet with a European contact who could provide Headley with money, weapons and manpower for the newspaper attack, and relate Kashmiri’s instructions that this should be a suicide attack and the attackers should prepare martyrdom videos beforehand. Kashmiri also stated that the attackers should behead captives and throw their heads out of the newspaper building to heighten the response from Danish authorities, and added that the “elders,” whom Headley understood to be al Qaeda leadership, wanted the attack to happen as soon as possible.

In late July and early August 2009, Headley traveled from Chicago to various places in Europe, and met with and attempted to obtain assistance from Kashmiri’s contacts and, while in Copenhagen, he made approximately 13 additional surveillance videos. When he returned to the United States on Aug. 5, 2009, Headley falsely told a U.S. Customs and Border Protection inspector in Atlanta that he had visited Europe for business reasons.

After returning to Chicago, Headley spoke with Abdur Rehman by phone and, using code, described his surveillance activities and his meeting with Kashmiri’s European contact. On multiple occasions throughout August and September 2009, Headley communicated with Abdur Rehman about planning the attack and media reports that Kashmiri had been killed. On Oct. 3, 2009, Headley was arrested at O’Hare International Airport in Chicago, intending ultimately to travel to Pakistan to deliver the approximately 13 surveillance videos to Abdur Rehman and Kashmiri, the plea agreement states.

One of Headley’s co-defendants, Tahawwur Rana, 49, of Chicago, who was indicted in January on three counts — conspiracy to provide material support to the Mumbai attacks; conspiracy to provide material support to the Denmark plot; and providing material support to Lashkar — has pleaded not guilty and remains in federal custody in Chicago while awaiting trial. Abdur Rehman and Kashmiri, who were charged in the same indictment with conspiracy to murder and maim persons in Denmark and providing material support to the Denmark plot, are not in U.S. custody.

The government is being represented by Chicago Assistant U.S. Attorneys Daniel Collins and Victoria J. Peters and Patrick J. Fitzgerald, U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois, as well as Los Angeles Assistant U.S. Attorneys Christopher Grigg and Janet Hudson of the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the Central District of California, with assistance from the Counterterrorism Section of the Justice Department’s National Security Division. The investigation has been conducted by the Chicago Joint Terrorism Task Force, led by the Chicago Office of the FBI, with assistance from the FBI offices in Los Angeles and Washington, D.C., as well as both U.S. Customs and Border Protection and U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Department of Homeland Security.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by SSridhar »

merlin wrote:The MMS government must explain if they allowed Kasab to be questioned by the FBI or other US authorities? In exchange for that we still haven't had access to Headley. It has been proved time and again that the US is untrustworthy and will go to any lengths to protect its ally Pakistan often at the cost of Indian lives, yet the MMS government persists in sucking upto it in all matters.
Merlin, I understand your anger. I am equally angry, but that is not going to help matters. Let's leave aside our anger and try to reason it out.

Yes, the US intelligence agency was allowed to interrogate Kasab because we stood to gain from the US interrogation. They have indeed given us a lot of information. The FBI team even deposed before the Judge hearing the 26/11 case. We still have to learn a lot more and need the support of the US agencies and government for the same.

Yes, we have not had nor will we ever have a similar unfettered access to Headley because the US is clearly trying to calibrate how much he can reveal and how much he cannot because that may not be in their national interests.

This does rightfully raise our rage, however impotent it may be. However, at this point in time, the relationship with the US is unequal and mostly favourable to it. We have to simply bide our time. We believe that we have no ace up our sleeves and whatever little leverage we may have, we may feel shy to use it to our advantage. That's the way we are. Unless a new crop of younger leaders arrives on the scene, there is no possibility of change in Indian approach. So, we should get whatever help we can to expose Pakistan now and more importantly understand their terror organizations to save future Indian lives.

But, we should not let go of our sights and continue to remind the US at every opportunity that while six Americans might have died, over 160 Indian lives have also been lost and many more have been injured and traumatized and this has been going on for years. We should keep hammering away that it was the US backing that emboldened Pakistan to use terror as a weapon of state policy against India first and now against the rest of the humanity too. We have to make them feel the guilt.

We should constantly reiterate our determination to tackle the problem with or without the help of anybody else. We must also back up our words with some action against Pakistan, preferably overt, that leaves none in doubt about our determination. As I keep saying, our options against Pakistan are many and we must make use of the entire range. In the process, let us jeopardize the US interests in the region or at least threaten to do so. Let us make it more difficult for the US here.

It will be too easy to brand the US as 'untrustworthy', but from the US point of view, they are doing their utmost to protect and further their interests all the time, with friends and foes alike. Why are we expecting scruples in practice of statecraft and then feel disappointed ? If India is scrupulous in international affairs, it reflects that personal characteristics and beliefs are seeping into foreign policies, a dangerous mix indeed.

Today, the US feels that India lacks the courage to counter attack and so it takes a particular line of strategy in handling Pakistan, which is mostly detrimental to us. The time has obviously come for us to make the US change its tactic by revising our approach to Pakistan. Every major terrorist incident, like the Red Fort attack, the J&K Assembly attack, the Parliament attack, the Mumbai commuter train attack, the serial attacks in Bangalore, Ahmedabad, Delhi etc went unchallenged and every time our leaders promised that another incident would invite retaliation, without really following through. India is thus considered as a status-quo power willing to absorb blows. Unless this perception changes, we have no hope. I do not distinguish among our political classes and parties as far as this non-retaliatory trait goes.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by A_Gupta »

http://news.oneindia.in/2010/03/20/indi ... blake.html
New Delhi, Mar 20 (ANI): United States Assistant Secretary of State for South and Central Asia, Robert Blake, on Saturday said Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT) operative David Coleman Headley cannot be extradited to India now, but Indian investigators would be allowed to interrogate him.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by vera_k »

Merlin wrote:The MMS government must explain if they allowed Kasab to be questioned by the FBI or other US authorities? In exchange for that we still haven't had access to Headley.
Postions like these are non sequiturs given the broader context. The more serious question that must be asked is why MMS, Shivraj Patil or Chavan are not being charged under IPC for negligience on internal security. There are credible reports of police having guns but no bullets and police budgets being reduced. MMS is also culpable for talking to Pakistan when getting closer to Pakistan is known to result in indeterminate and uncontrollable terror attacks on India.

I agree with the views expressed up the thread that India is not prepared to deal with reality.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by sum »

Today, the US feels that India lacks the courage to counter attack and so it takes a particular line of strategy in handling Pakistan, which is mostly detrimental to us. The time has obviously come for us to make the US change its tactic by revising our approach to Pakistan. Every major terrorist incident, like the Red Fort attack, the J&K Assembly attack, the Parliament attack, the Mumbai commuter train attack, the serial attacks in Bangalore, Ahmedabad, Delhi etc went unchallenged and every time our leaders promised that another incident would invite retaliation, without really following through. India is thus considered as a status-quo power willing to absorb blows. Unless this perception changes, we have no hope. I do not distinguish among our political classes and parties as far as this non-retaliatory trait goes.
Absolutely great post ( as always).

The whining about the US by all our DDM etc is just a red herring to throw us from the real fact of complete impotence of our own netas to deal with anything Pak throws at us. Its shocking as to how such a large nation is behaving like a pygmy in international affairs and expecting others to miraculously take up issues on our behalf and get a outcoe favorable to us.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by chetak »

One little thing has bothered me now for weeks .

We all take it for granted that headley was a double agent for the DEA.

He was arrested for smuggling heroin into the US. He must have had friends and accomplices who were aware of his arrest, his sentencing and the terms of his sentence.

His friends must have monitored his release after 2 odd years. The original drug smuggler friends must have been made aware of it and the simplest thought that would have crossed their mind is that some sort of a deal must have been cut with the US authorities. They would not have trusted him or even tolerated him.

Such a person frequently and easily travels to the remotest areas of pakiland, a feat that would not have been possible without the intimate knowledge and abetment of the ISI or the paki army. Even if the LeT had him initially, the isi or the paki army would have taken him over in a flash.

He was always traveling from the international airports in pakiland to the remote areas. If he had clandestinely slipped in from iran or afganistan and gone about his nasty business then the pakis may, just may have been out of the loop. But we know that was not the case.

The pakis were certainly running him, as were the americans.

Now that the US has manipulated their judicial system to bury this guy deep within it thereby virtually denying physical access to the Indians, the real question is did the americans allow the pakis run the Bombay attack ? How much did the US know before the attack actually took place?

A convicted criminal who changed his name, paki -american parentage to boot, with a penchant for frequent travel to the middle east, India and pakiland?? ( Yes, I know that he had a passport in his new and american sounding name.) This must have set off all sorts of alarm bells across several countries with the exception of India, with our atithi devo bhava culture.

The americans are as complicit in this as the pakis.
Last edited by chetak on 20 Mar 2010 21:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by CRamS »

sum wrote:
The whining about the US by all our DDM etc is just a red herring to throw us from the real fact of complete impotence of our own netas to deal with anything Pak throws at us. Its shocking as to how such a large nation is behaving like a pygmy in international affairs and expecting others to miraculously take up issues on our behalf and get a outcoe favorable to us.
Exactly, please read Bakara's whine that I posted. A measure of India's subterfuge and cowardice is evident in the manner in which eliktes like Bakara are ever so willing to show impotent anger at US, or people angry at "Inddian leadership" after Mumbai or the degenerate Praveen Swami's "Hinduthva terror angle" after Pune etc; but s@it scared to saying anything against the real perpetrators: TSPA/LeT/ISI/ and their local cohorts. It gives them a kind of self satisfying comfort in doing or saying something without having to confront the real stink which they are afraid of.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by svinayak »

SSridhar wrote:
Today, the US feels that India lacks the courage to counter attack and so it takes a particular line of strategy in handling Pakistan, which is mostly detrimental to us. India is thus considered as a status-quo power willing to absorb blows.
This is a good reasoning. Indian leadership is the problem.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by negi »

Anujan wrote: That means that he has a deal.
That is what it is plain and simple , I doubt if questioning him under Unkil supervision in Unkiland will be of any use , yeah might serve as an eyewash and something to jump on for the MUTUs.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by vera_k »

sum wrote:The whining about the US by all our DDM etc is just a red herring to throw us from the real fact of complete impotence of our own netas to deal with anything Pak throws at us.
Reminds me of Psychological projection.

Perhaps research is warranted into testing whether the gene pool on the Indian subcontinent is particularly susceptible to psychological disorders.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by svinayak »

vera_k wrote:
sum wrote:The whining about the US by all our DDM etc is just a red herring to throw us from the real fact of complete impotence of our own netas to deal with anything Pak throws at us.
Reminds me of Psychological projection.

Perhaps research is warranted into testing whether the gene pool on the Indian subcontinent is particularly susceptible to psychological disorders.
Usually colonized mind show these kind of symptoms. Indian elite is mostly still a colonized elite which has not shed the past history of colonization and has a world view not rooted in Indian interest and Indian identity.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by Prem »

Acharya wrote:
SSridhar wrote:
Today, the US feels that India lacks the courage to counter attack and so it takes a particular line of strategy in handling Pakistan, which is mostly detrimental to us. India is thus considered as a status-quo power willing to absorb blows.
This is a good reasoning. Indian leadership is the problem.
This what i call Indian's political weakness. Rest other real/supposed weaknesse stems from the behaviour of ruling elites and their adhoc plannings. BY now , Pakis would have been nuked thrice per any law of retaliation.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by V_Raman »

the sad part in india is that the country has not reached an understanding on what to do with IM and what to do with I itself. as usual india is restrained due to internal issues.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Vir Sanghvi: What does America have to hide?

http://epaper.hindustantimes.com/Articl ... 002&mode=1
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by SSridhar »

We will get access to Headley: P.Chidambaram
Mr. Chidambaram's statement came after U.S. Attorney-General Eric Holder had a long telephonic conversation with him on Friday evening, clarifying various aspects of Headley's plea agreement.

Mr. Chidambaram said Mr. Holder drew pointed attention to the Chapter ‘Cooperation' of the plea agreement which stated that Headley, a Pakistani American, “will fully and truthfully testify in any foreign judicial proceedings held in the U.S., by way of deposition, videoconferencing or letters rogatory.”

Following this, the Home Minister directed the National Investigation Agency (NIA), which already registered the First Information Report on November 11 last against Headley and his accomplice, Tahawwur Hussain Rana, a Pakistani-origin Canadian national, to quickly prepare the documents necessary for starting judicial proceedings, in which Indian authorities could require Headley to answer questions or testify.

Mr. Chidambaram also stressed another aspect of the plea agreement, which was of “enormous significance.” He said the plea agreement was the most damning indictment of the role played by certain persons in Pakistan.

“In his plea agreement, Headley has admitted to conspiring with Lashkar-e-Taiba members A,B,C & D; he has admitted to meeting with and receiving instructions from them; he has admitted to attending training camps organised by the LeT on five separate occasions; he has admitted to meeting in Pakistan with various co-conspirators, including but not limited to LeT members; and he has admitted to being privy to the attacks planned in Mumbai and the despatch of a team of attackers by sea,” Mr. Chidambaram said.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by arun »

abhishek_sharma wrote:Vir Sanghvi: What does America have to hide?

http://epaper.hindustantimes.com/Articl ... 002&mode=1
Abhishek,

As a favour to those without unlimited download internet connections please do not post from the HT e-paper, rather post from the more bandwidth friendly HT non e-paper link such as this:

What does America have to hide?
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by Patni »

Headley's status hearing on March 23 cancelled after guilty plea

Press Trust Of India
Chicago, March 21, 2010
First Published: 14:27 IST(21/3/2010)
Last Updated: 14:39 IST(21/3/2010)


A status hearing in the case of Pakistani-American terrorist David Headley, which was set for March 23, has been cancelled following his confession in a US court about involvement in the Mumbai attacks.

With 49-year-old Headley, an operative of the Pakistan-based LeT, pleading guilty to all 12 terror charges against him in a Chicago court on March 18, a status hearing in his case that was earlier scheduled for March 23 has been cancelled, officials said.

Under a plea bargain, he pleaded guilty to the charges of conspiracy involving bombing public places in India, murdering and maiming persons and providing material support to LeT, besides aiding and abetting the murder of six US citizens in the 26/11 attacks that killed 166 people.

A US Attorney's office spokesman told PTI that Headley --who also confessed to plotting an attack against a Danish newspaper which published cartoons of Prophet Mohammad -- will remain at the Metropolitan Correctional Centre (MCC) located in downtown Chicago for the time being.

{ did wondered earlier if he will stay in some semi-safe house/ correctional centre indefinitely.}

Since his arrest in October last year, Headley has been held at the MCC. Co-accused Pakistani-Canadian Rana too is in the same lock-up, though the two "friends from a Pakistani military school" stay separately and do not meet each other inside the lock-up.

Headley is also likely to testify against Rana, a Chicago businessman who is also charged in both the Mumbai and Danish plots.

The allegations against Rana are sketchier, but authorities said he let Headley pose as an employee of his immigration business to use as cover for his travels overseas.

Headley has stated in the plea agreement that Rana knew details of the 26/11 attacks and about his frequent travels to Pakistan and meetings with LeT terrorists regarding the strikes.

The spokesman further said no date yet has been fixed for a hearing on Headley's sentencing.

As per the plea agreement struck with the US government, Headley would continue to share information and can be questioned by Indian and other foreign governments, but on American soil only.

In return, Headley would not be given the death penalty, nor would he be extradited to India, Pakistan or Denmark.

His attorneys have said Headley has agreed to be interviewed by foreign governments, who will send representatives to the United States for the sessions.

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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by Patni »

Chicago Terrorist Set to Reveal Training Info
Spared the death penalty, David Headley is set to speak with Indian officials
By AIXA VELEZ
Updated 10:30 AM CDT, Sat, Mar 20, 2010

A Chicago man who pleaded guilty to terrorism conspiracies including the 2008 terror attacks in Mumbai, India that killed 166 people, will soon start talking to foreign governments.

David Coleman Headley, 49, was spared the death penalty provided he talks to the governments of Pakistan, India and Denmark about their terrorism investigations.

Headley is set to begin speaking to India, a senior official told the Associated Press Saturday. He will not be extradited to any of the countries as part of his plea agreement.

According to Headley, he attended terror camps from 2002 to 2005. He was trained in the merits of waging jihad, grenades, survival skills, combat, tactical training and counter-surveillance, reported the Sun Times.

Headley’s debriefing with the foreign governments will take place in the U.S. and will be arranged through U.S. authorities.

Although Headley’s plea deal bans his extradition to Pakistan, India and Denmark, the Indian Home Minister Palaniappan Chidambaram is still trying to extradite him to face charges in India. Prosecutors said Headley pleaded guilty to scouting targets in Mumbai before the bombings.

He also admitted to involvement in a plot attack against a Danish newspaper, Jyllands Posten, because of their offensive cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by CRamS »

Patni wrote:Chicago Terrorist Set to Reveal Training Info

David Coleman Headley, 49, was spared the death penalty provided he talks to the governments of Pakistan, India and Denmark about their terrorism investigations.
US will make sure that this talking to Headley is another equal equal comic affair. And as sual, TSP will spin another web around the Dhotiwallahs in Delhi. He will say one thing to India, propbably as I said implicate some Hindu outfit or colonel ProHit, he will come out telling everything that TSP wants him to say.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by sum »

Headley is set to begin speaking to India, a senior official told the Associated Press Saturday. He will not be extradited to any of the countries as part of his plea agreement.
Is there realistically any chance of useful info to come our way when the "interrogation" ( if it is called that) is being held in a 3rd country under the watch of agencies hostile to our agencies?

Will Headley just blurt out whatever he knows just because the SDREs gently asked him without the use of any "extra measures"?
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Post by vera_k »

^^^

Right. It would be better to pass on interrogating Headley because not much can be learnt from direct interrogation while he is in the American system. They should ask to take pictures, collect a sample of DNA and get his fingerprints so he can be kept out of India by the entry ports.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by ramana »

The most likely truth to the Headley affair is he was heading to India eventually to be picked up. It was to prevent India from unraveling the case that the US arrested him. The scenario could be the state actors forced the non state actors and handlers to direct Headley to proceed to India eventually. The handlers got upset and tipped of US which arrested him to prevent this very outcome. Headley couldn't have revealed much more about TSP perfidy than what India already knows. However what he could reveal about other State actors could be revealing. Hence the plea bargain clauses about what questions can be asked and what he he might answer.
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

Post by jrjrao »

Many have mentioned above that the text of the guilty plea agreement goes out of the way to soften the blow to the Pakis.

That whereas the Danish plot affair is laid out in detail, on the other hand, on the Mumbai attacks, even the names of confirmed Lashkar/Paki-army masterminds are hidden in the plea text by giving them names such as Lashkar alpha, beta, ch*tia, delta etc.

The US wants much of the Headley affair hidden from the Indians. The Pakis will know much of what the US is not willing to let out. The US knows that the Pakis know this, and will be very grateful if the Pakis will help keep its Headley secrets hidden.

In this instance (like in many others), the interests of the US and the Pakis have strong convergence.
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Post by arun »

Excerpt from Karan Thapar’s “Devil’s Advocate” interview of our Foreign Minister S.M. Krishna on Sunday March 21, 2010 dealing with Pakistani origin terrorist Daood Gilani aka David Coleman Headley:
Karan Thapar: Let us come to David Coleman Headley who is in the news. Now that he has decided to plead guilty and he is likely to get a lesser sentence, are you beginning to suspect that he could be an American double agent who turned rogue?

S M Krishna: That is what is being speculated by the media in our country.

Karan Thapar: Do you share that fear or apprehension?

S M Krishna: We are closely watching what Headley will be saying or what Headley would be committing himself to in any court of law.

Karan Thapar: And then you will make up your mind?

S M Krishna: Perhaps then only we could come to some conclusion.

Karan Thapar: Has America been upfront and transparent or do you have a feeling that they have withheld details and information about Headley because they want to either protect what he knows or protect institutions like the FBI and CIA?

S M Krishna: We are cooperating with the United States and they are reciprocating in ample measure to fight terrorism. I think terrorism is a top priority with reference to the Government of the United States.

Karan Thapar: Does that mean they are cooperating?

S M Krishna: We are in close cooperation with the United States in fighting terror.

Karan Thapar: Does that mean they are upfront and honest about Headley?

S M Krishna: I think it goes without saying.

Karan Thapar: You have no reservations about that?

S M Krishna: No, I have no reservations.

Karan Thapar: It emerges that Headley was on the FBI radar for at least a year before he was arrested, which means that for a whole month before 26/11 he was under American surveillance. Yet, just five months later in April 2009 the Americans allowed him to come to India without informing the Indian Government. Have you taken that issue up with them?

S M Krishna: We have taken up all relevant issues with reference to Headley.

Karan Thapar: Including the fact that he visited India and they did not inform you he was doing so even though he was under their surveillance?

S M Krishna: Whatever has come to the knowledge of Government of India through our media or through what we hear from others, we have conveyed to the United States.

Karan Thapar: And have you got responses that satisfy you? Or are you still in need of greater information?

S M Krishna: I have said it earlier that the United States is fighting terror. We are on the same page as far as fighting terror is concerned.

Karan Thapar: Has India asked the United States for access to Headley?

S M Krishna: We have asked for certain reports after they finish with their interrogation, after they finish investigating into Headley because it is the United States Government which has moved against him.

Karan Thapar: That I understand but those are reports after they finish.

S M Krishna: We are awaiting the report.

Karan Thapar: But you have sought access to Headley himself as yet?

S M Krishna: It all depends upon the kind of report that we get.

Karan Thapar: So, you are awaiting the reports before you make up your mind?

S M Krishna: Yes.
The interview also touches upon Pakistan’s involvement in terrorism targeting India in Afghanistan and the involvement of Pakistani “State Actors” in the 26/11 terrorist attack on Mumbai. The transcript of the complete interview is here:

Devil's Advocate: SM Krishna on India and Af-Pak
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Re: The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

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