India Nuclear News And Discussion

[Sanku]

Nothing that has not been discussed before, however I post this for a specific reason, Karan Thapar (in my opinion) is a very Pro-Congress person with deep contacts in that party which the congress uses for pushing its PoV (almost a mouth piece if I may say so)

And he writes this
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Wearing-a ... 21438.aspx

This takes us back to the issue I began with: does the need for a liability law suggest the nuclear sector is being opened to private players? Every thing in the bill makes sense if the answer is yes — the principle of a cap, the amount specified and the differentiation between the operator’s liability and the government’s.
This was, I suspect, the government’s intention but when the bill ran into trouble — provoking accusations of pandering to the interests of future American operators — it hastily announced that private sector participation is not envisaged. That got them off the American hook but made a nonsense of the bill.

A damning indictment in my opinion.

[Gerard]

Russia offers N-fuel fabrication, uranium JV, India reluctant

[Gerard]

India to examine its NPT options ahead of nuclear summit

$1600/kW is benchmark cost for light water reactor imports

The Centre has pegged the benchmark capital cost for the new Light Water Reactor (LWR) imports that are under discussion with Russia, France and the US at $1,600 per kilowatt, or around Rs 7.2 crore per mega watt....
The capital cost estimates compare with around Rs 4-6 crore per MW for Greenfield thermal stations and over Rs 5 crore for a new hydro project.

[Sanatanan]

$1600/kW is benchmark cost for light water reactor imports

I think, post-deal, this is probably the first time some specific numbers are being disclosed for the buying price of reactors proposed to be imported now.

I note that the report does not compare cost per MWe installed of the imported reactor plants with that of indigenous PHWRs of either the 540 or 700 MWe class -- using compatible data/assumptions on various parameters that go into the calculations of Capital Cost of npps. I suspect that fair comparison might show PHWRs to be cheaper.

In particular, an indigenous PHWR built in India may be more economical. since "fuelling cost" (that is, cost of new fuel rods -- Nat U in PHWR Vs Enriched U in LWR -- to be loaded into the core over the lifetime of the plant), is lower in the case of PHWR, even after taking into account the "running cost" due to irrecoverable "loss" of heavy water and cost of periodically recycling the used, impure heavy water after purifying it to the required quality.

[Sanatanan]

India to examine its NPT options ahead of nuclear summit

Skeptical methinks, this 'think-tank' discussion business may be a prelude to announcement, that GOI has decided to sign the NPT (as a non-nuclear-weapon state) as demanded by the US

We may now expect articles to be published justifying just why we need to sign the NPT - "the deal must be implemented !"

[D Roy]

That is an overnight cost figure. Also Yamriki reactors will cost more.


And yes this may seem a bit rude, but I think the criticisms of the nuke liability bill are not valid. I don't have the time and patience to get into a long drawn out discussion putting in perspective various points and refuting a continuous stream of arguments.

Suffice it to say the nuke bill is very much in keeping with various international conventions and is nothing extraordinary. As India re-integrates into the global nuclear framework it would naturally have to move ahead on such legislation. Truth be told although we are a huge market, which is why everybody is here , there's a lot of demand from other quarters as well. and we need those imported LWRs as additionality if we want to operationalize the three stage program. for that we will need to play the international game.

It just so happens that we had been out in the woods for so long that we have developed a tendency to be suspicious of anything that represents globalization especially in the nuke business.

Oh and by the way- The overnight cost figure for indigenous PHWRs is $1100/ KWe.

[Sanku]

And yes this may seem a bit rude, but I think the criticisms of the nuke liability bill are not valid. I don't have the time and patience to get into a long drawn out discussion putting in perspective various points and refuting a continuous stream of arguments.

Because you cant, no one can. Not even the Congress in public can. Its mouthpieces are shying away. Even N^3 could not and agreed that it was not possible for him to defend it (and he was one of the staunchest supporter of the Nuke deal etc)

There are no answers to any details, only assertions.

On other note, I wonder how many people have read it

Russia offers N-fuel fabrication, uranium JV, India reluctant

If the article is to believe, India is deliberately staying away from Russian offers on all fronts which are far more generous. This to me suggests only one thing -- that it is preserving its space to offer to US.

[D Roy]

Because you cant

Bait. But won't take it.

[Sanku]

Because you cant

Bait. But won't take it.

Suit yourself, actually you are one of the few posters here whom I personally have liked (based on their posts) and can probably trust to debate that issue from the other side (without my wondering about the motives and thinking process of the other guy)

As such I would liked to debate if you chose, but I still say, you cant, hey even the Govt has pulled back.

[D Roy]

Okay since you did mention trust.

Let me just say something.

The Russkis will also be happier if a nuclear liability framework is put in place.

[jagga]

India was reluctant to accept Russia's 'bear hug'

the Indian establishment was extremely reluctant about committing itself to the Russian bear hug, whether in the nuclear energy, defence or space sectors

The offer on nuclear cooperation, however, was wide-ranging and generous. As part of the inter-governmental agreement on cooperation in nuclear energy and the road map for the construction of nuclear power plants, signed in the presence of the two prime ministers, Russia promised to 'go beyond' the Indo-US nuclear deal.

Speaking to the Russian media after Putin's visit to Delhi, Sergei Kiriyenko, the head of Russia's nuclear energy agency, Rosatom, said Russia offered to build 16 nuclear power plants at Kudankulam in Tamil Nadu and Haripur in West Bengal, design and build a nuclear fuel fabrication facility in India under IAEA safeguards and set up a joint venture to explore and mine uranium in Russia that would be used in India and third countries.

Kiriyenko, in fact, told Russian reporters back in Moscow that Indo-Russian nuclear cooperation would go much beyond building nuclear reactors and fabricating fuel for use in the several units at Kudankulam and Haripur. Moscow had also offered to jointly manufacture nuclear power equipment, which factories could be located in India.

Strategic nuclear analyst G Balachandran told Business Standard that the Russian offer, if it came to pass, would mean that the mined enriched uranium from Yakutia could be used to fabricate nuclear fuel for the Russian nuclear power plants in India. He pointed out that Moscow's offer of reprocessing rights for the spent fuel, at least for the moment, went beyond the offer from any other country, including the US.

But keeping in mind US sensitivities

According to Indian sources familiar with the subject, Delhi did not want to be seen to be getting into a cinch with the Russians, especially since the US had done most of the heavy lifting by pushing through the nuclear deal in 2008 and had so far not got any "benefit" out of it.


With the Indo-US reprocessing pact in its last lap and the Prime Minister readying to travel to Washington DC to attend US President Barack Obama's nuclear summit, Delhi perhaps felt the time was not ripe to publicise nuclear cooperation with the Russians.

[Anabhaya]

A comprehensive piece

The Civil Nuclear Liability Bill: Its Rationale and Related Issues

In conclusion, overall, the proposed bill is not just consistent with international practice but also delineates a pragmatic approach taking into account domestic limitations. Specific provisions such as the total liability cap under cl.6(1) and operators’ right to recourse against suppliers under cl.17(b) may be disputed and should be reconsidered. Amounts prescribed for the liability caps are debatable too. Others such as cl.35 which may not pass judicial muster are preferably redrafted or dropped.

[arnab]

On other note, I wonder how many people have read it

Russia offers N-fuel fabrication, uranium JV, India reluctant

If the article is to believe, India is deliberately staying away from Russian offers on all fronts which are far more generous. This to me suggests only one thing -- that it is preserving its space to offer to US.

To me it suggests that India is wary about the bait and switch tactics used by Russia.

[Sanku]

To me it suggests that India is wary about the bait and switch tactics used by Russia.

Such as, one extra piddling billion $ for Gorky?


I am impressed by the bait and switch tactics they use Sir, a fine display of market understanding grasped rapidly by folks who never worked with the market for the entire life.

Oh no, let us not give any brownie skills to Rodina for skills in mercantilism please, we all know who the nation of shop keepers and their offspring's are

[Hari Seldon]

^^ To me it seems the deliberate low-key on the Russian offers (if the news is true and not some mischievous plant) is because Dilli babus are likely trying to use the Russo offers as bargaining chips with unkil.

And the Russians being past grandmasters have gamed it all. They knew Yindia would do the haggling thingie with unkil, russian offer in hand. They purposely made an offer hiding the fine print perhaps, hoping for such an outcome....

/OK, CT cap off.

[JE Menon]

Hari, that's perfectly feasible. I don't see what's CT there. It's standard operating practice in bargaining.

Now if you said that Russians had gamed this 200 years ago, and our (India's I mean, in case you're wondering ) future has been irrevocably planned with heavy sociological engineering (not to mention A effing 1 foresight - helped no doubt by 20-20 hindsight ), then I'd have said boss, time to tune out and check in.

[arnab]

To me it suggests that India is wary about the bait and switch tactics used by Russia.

Such as, one extra piddling billion $ for Gorky?


I am impressed by the bait and switch tactics they use Sir, a fine display of market understanding grasped rapidly by folks who never worked with the market for the entire life.

Oh no, let us not give any brownie skills to Rodina for skills in mercantilism please, we all know who the nation of shop keepers and their offspring's are

Not just that do include failure to transfer critical technologies for T-90 and Brahmos. Really shoddy quality Talwars(?) so much so the IN refused to accept it. Like I said before wrt to Russia-India, the age of 'pay peanuts, get monkeys' is over.

Just because they never worked with the market does not mean they do not understand it. An often misunderstood fact is the Marx had the greates understanding of the capabilities of the capitalist system
Can't say I blame India from not wishing to get stuck in a single vendor option

[Sanku]

Not just that do include failure to transfer critical technologies for T-90 and Brahmos.

Those issues were about protecting Russian IP from going from Indian to other hands, not about transfer only to India. They wanted to see what structures we have to ensure that.

And its already sorted out, after a grand bargaining lasting for a total of a year in each case, in parallel to rest of development.

Really shoddy quality Talwars(?) so much so the IN refused to accept it.

Not quality issues, issues with readiness, some functionalities were not complete by the DDay, and penalty clauses were invoked. The Russians PAID hardly bait and switch.

Like I said before wrt to Russia-India, the age of 'pay peanuts, get monkeys' is over.

There never was such a time. Barring the western psy-ops, the Russian philosophy worked well for us, that is of making a functional weapon as opposed to weapon for PR exercise to the congress to indulge in some crony capitalism and corner as much resources for the Mil-Ind complex as possible.

Just because they never worked with the market does not mean they do not understand it. An often misunderstood fact is the Marx had the greates understanding of the capabilities of the capitalist system

Please, the Russian state is not made up of Marx's; its functionaries are not armed with PhDs in Strategy Management and MBA from wharton. They are trained in simple command/centralized economy models.

Can't say I blame India from not wishing to get stuck in a single vendor option

[/quote]

Jumping from a semi-reliable single vendor to two vendors one of whom is a known market gamers is hardly the fix to the single vendor problem.

[arnab]

Not just that do include failure to transfer critical technologies for T-90 and Brahmos.

Those issues were about protecting Russian IP from going from Indian to other hands, not about transfer only to India. They wanted to see what structures we have to ensure that.

And its already sorted out, after a grand bargaining lasting for a total of a year in each case, in parallel to rest of development.

Really shoddy quality Talwars(?) so much so the IN refused to accept it.

Not quality issues, issues with readiness, some functionalities were not complete by the DDay, and penalty clauses were invoked. The Russians PAID hardly bait and switch.

Like I said before wrt to Russia-India, the age of 'pay peanuts, get monkeys' is over.

There never was such a time. Barring the western psy-ops, the Russian philosophy worked well for us, that is of making a functional weapon as opposed to weapon for PR exercise to the congress to indulge in some crony capitalism and corner as much resources for the Mil-Ind complex as possible.

Just because they never worked with the market does not mean they do not understand it. An often misunderstood fact is the Marx had the greates understanding of the capabilities of the capitalist system

Please, the Russian state is not made up of Marx's; its functionaries are not armed with PhDs in Strategy Management and MBA from wharton. They are trained in simple command/centralized economy models.

Can't say I blame India from not wishing to get stuck in a single vendor option

Jumping from a semi-reliable single vendor to two vendors one of whom is a known market gamers is hardly the fix to the single vendor problem. [/quote]

Sorry - where has it been reported that technology transfer issues have been sorted out? Re 'pay peanuts...'. It was always the issue. Small wonder that in Kargil the most effective weapon platforms were the Mirages and Bofors. 'functional' has it's uses - particularly in the peasant army role that the Soviet Union started out with. But it is no longer relevant to India - particularly when facing a rapidly 'technologising' neighbourhood.

Re Marx: Oooh those simpleton Russians - ready to follow the command of the Secretary General. Russia has changed completely - It is really crony capitalist now. They have learnt quickly and providing a captive market to a semi reliable vendor and therefore maintaining the status quo is no answer either. Who knows what they will do to retain the captive market? Perhaps there is something to be learnt in the T-90 / Arjun saga

[Amber G.]

Saurav's Article - sorry if it is already posted here.
The Nuclear Liability Bill in line with existing conventions

The debate over the Civil Liability for Nuclear Damage Bill 2010 has descended into a rather acrimonious exchange between various parties with very little attempt to contextualise the arguments. Nuclear power today is seen as a key path out of the global warming conundrum — a path which would allow nations to sustain industrial growth even as they move towards a low carbon future. India is no exception, and has actually one of the most ambitious nuclear expansion plans in place, seeking to generate 40,000 MWe by 2020, and some 6,00,000 MWe by 2060.

[Sanku]

Sorry - where has it been reported that technology transfer issues have been sorted out? Re 'pay peanuts...'

Google is a friend, use it.

It was always the issue. Small wonder that in Kargil the most effective weapon platforms were the Mirages and Bofors.

Err do you think that could perhaps be because the Bofors was the ONLY 155 mm canon and Mirage the ONLY fighter bomber, and thus at that point perhaps the most effective advance systems in each category?

If you remember Jaguars failed too? Or is that a inconvenient data point?

If you remember Mig 29s were very successful in their role, which was CAP, in chasing away the F 16s?

'functional' has it's uses - particularly in the peasant army role that the Soviet Union started out with. But it is no longer relevant to India - particularly when facing a rapidly 'technologising' neighbourhood.

Ah; tell me; where did quotes appear around functional in the above? And around techologising? In our nehibourhood? Such as what? The Thundaaaarr?

Re Marx: Oooh those simpleton Russians - ready to follow the command of the Secretary General. Russia has changed completely - It is really crony capitalist now.

Ooohh those simpleton Indians, we accept that they Russians learnt in 20 years what the US+UK has been practicing for 400, even when we have first hand and open public knowledge of how they work as seen in examples.

Since you Sir Arnab; say so.

Perhaps there is something to be learnt, that you have NOT A SINGLE POINT to justify you meaningless statement of

To me it suggests that India is wary about the bait and switch tactics used by Russia.

any example that you have tried is shown to be a result of your ignorance, or plain ungrounded assertion because you felt like having an opinion like that (worse than ignorance really) -- dont you think you should exhibit a modicum of good form and withdraw from this?

----------------

Kindly do the feel the need to quote an ENTIRE long post to make a two statement rejoinder, it adds to further useless real space and we are quite capable of figuring out the context even if a snippet is posted, thank you

[Amber G.]

Google is a friend, use it.

यश्यनास्ति स्वयं प्रज्ञा, शास्त्रं तश्य करोति किम?
लोचनाभ्याम विहीनस्य दर्पणः किम करिश्यति ||
(quote found courtesy google

[Neshant]

To me it suggests that India is wary about the bait and switch tactics used by Russia.

They spoil their reputation as salesmen doing this kind of cheating. The result is that all deals proposed are suspect and a 50 to 100% cost escalation due to lowballing has to be factored in. The stuff they are selling then no longer looks economical.

[Gerard]

Russia offers N-fuel fabrication, uranium JV, India reluctant

Reliance on an international Uranium enrichment facility (IAEA nuclear fuel bank) on Russian territory may suit Russia, the US and others, but would not be in Indian interests.

[Sanku]

Google is a friend, use it.

यश्यनास्ति स्वयं प्रज्ञा, शास्त्रं तश्य करोति किम?
लोचनाभ्याम विहीनस्य दर्पणः किम करिश्यति ||
(quote found courtesy google

I read this school, wonder if they still teach this stuff.

[Sanku]

Russia offers N-fuel fabrication, uranium JV, India reluctant

Reliance on an international Uranium enrichment facility (IAEA nuclear fuel bank) on Russian territory may suit Russia, the US and others, but would not be in Indian interests.

Quite possible, but what about having a international monitored station, in India? They could/should have engaged to take that offer as starting point and shape the contours (what the proponents of the 123 have argued that India will do with 123)

[Amber G.]

I read this school, wonder if they still teach this stuff.

Sanskrit is still taught (at least in some schools in USA) . The message in the shloka is still very valid.

[arnab]

Sorry - where has it been reported that technology transfer issues have been sorted out? Re 'pay peanuts...'

Since you Sir Arnab; say so.

Perhaps there is something to be learnt, that you have NOT A SINGLE POINT to justify you meaningless statement of

To me it suggests that India is wary about the bait and switch tactics used by Russia.

any example that you have tried is shown to be a result of your ignorance, or plain ungrounded assertion because you felt like having an opinion like that (worse than ignorance really) -- dont you think you should exhibit a modicum of good form and withdraw from this?

----------------

Kindly do the feel the need to quote an ENTIRE long post to make a two statement rejoinder, it adds to further useless real space and we are quite capable of figuring out the context even if a snippet is posted, thank you

Sigh - do refer to RayC about how the bofors kept on firing, while the russian artillery pieces broke down during the kargil episode. That is what is meant by 'effective'. 155 cal has nothing to do with anything. Similarly it was a mig which flamed out not the jag.

When I said 'technologising' I meant China - perhaps patriots will start looking beyond pakis It will also boost your self esteem - try it.

If you really think that Russian's practised a 'command and control' economy, hence they do not know how to drive a bargain (or cheat), I will leave others to judge the ridiculousness of yor statements. In the meanwhile one can only be grateful that you were physically unable to join the armed services and perhaps mentally unsuitable to join the public services so are unlikely to have a say in any decision. So thank god for small mercies

Finally, one can only laugh at your assertion of me making 'unsubstantiated' arguments, considering threads on EUMA are nothing but vague speculation and conspiracy theories ( but apparantly those are strategic discussions) :}

[SureshP]

US, India reach nuclear reprocessing deal
Chidanand Rajghatta, TNN, Mar 29, 2010, 06.26pm IST

WASHINGTON: India and the United States have concluded a nuclear fuel reprocessing agreement, the Obama administration announced on Monday.

The agreement, a key step in full realization of the US-India nuclear deal, will enable Indian reprocessing of US-obligated nuclear material under IAEA safeguards, the administration said in a statement.

Disclosing that the two sides have "taken an important step toward implementing civil nuclear cooperation by completing negotiations on 'arrangements and procedures' for reprocessing US-origin spent nuclear fuel, the statement said "completion of these arrangements will facilitate participation by US firms in India’s rapidly expanding civil nuclear energy sector."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 739263.cms

[RamaY]

Highlighting the policy and influence aspects of Jagga's post

According to Indian sources familiar with the subject, Delhi did not want to be seen to be getting into a cinch with the Russians, especially (1) since the US had done most of the heavy lifting by pushing through the nuclear deal in 2008 and (2) had so far not got any "benefit" out of it.

1. India thinks USA did all the heavy lifting. Definitely possible and must be appreciated. But who put those barriers to start with?
2. Why India wants USA to be benefited at India’s cost? What about India? Who thinks about Indian long-term National Interests? Who supported all the instability in Indian sub-continent?

Added Later

I am not batting for CCCP here. I would like India to be pragmatic about its interests, options, costs, and long-term implications. I hope GOI shows some wisdom, leadership, and shrewd-banianess and makes the right decision.

[negi]

Arnab perhaps it would help if you desist from quoting stuff out of context and drawing ridiculous analogies to push your pov , Mig-27 and Jaguar are different aircraft the former is a high speed , variable geometry design while latter is a more simpler design moreover both had different mission profiles assigned to them in Kargil and your Bofors vs RU arty point is even more absurd the M46 and D30 are 1950's vintage and they were the best howitzers during that era , FH77 came out in late 70's and fwiw the upgraded 155mm 45 cal M46 in IA service has Soltam barrels .

And whatever the logic behind making this a RU vs the Unkil debate if IA's inventory is what one quotes to justify one's pov then please consider 1300+ T-90's too into account .

I simply do not see the logic behind bringing up fighter AC or ARTY units in this thread and then draw inappropriate analogies to suit one's pov .

[arun]

US, India reach nuclear reprocessing deal
Chidanand Rajghatta, TNN, Mar 29, 2010, 06.26pm IST

WASHINGTON: India and the United States have concluded a nuclear fuel reprocessing agreement, the Obama administration announced on Monday. {Snipped} .........."

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 739263.cms

US State Department press release announcing the conclusion of a reprocessing arrangement between India and the US:

U.S.-India Civil Nuclear Cooperation - Reprocessing Arrangement

DAE Press release:

India- U.S. Civil Nuclear Cooperation – Reprocessing Arrangement

Terseness seems to be the order of the day .

[Sanku]

I simply do not see the logic behind bringing up fighter AC or ARTY units in this thread and then draw inappropriate analogies to suit one's pov .

Thanks Negi. Much appreciated.

[ramana]

RamaY, its customary for those who did the lifting to be given some favors. Thats how empire-states operate.

"Unke be khatir karne chahiye!"
They also need to be taken care off.

BTW, India knew the NPT was coming into force in 1968 yet did not conduct the test even though it had serious reasons to do so after PRC invaded in 1962 and then conducted its test in Oct 1964.

"Pointing a finger at someone while three fingers are pointed at self and the thumb either to God/Fate (up) or down!"

[Gerard]

India, U.S. finalise reprocessing agreement

Until the final round of talks earlier this month, the principal sticking points revolved around the number of facilities that the agreement would cover, and the conditions under which the U.S. could suspend the operation of arrangements and procedures, thereby bring a halt to the reprocessing of U.S.-origin spent fuel in India.

The U.S. wanted the agreement to cover only one reprocessing facility, while India felt the 123 agreement envisaged multiple facilities. In the end, the final text says the pact will apply to two facilities, with India allowed to make additions and modifications.

This clause, Indian officials say, will allow the country to augment its reprocessing capacity without going back to the negotiation table if the need arises for more plants.

As for suspension, Indian officials say the final agreement now allows Washington to suspend the arrangements and procedures only if there is a threat to physical security or to U.S. national security. Earlier, the U.S. wanted this kept very open-ended, while India was for restricting it to “exceptional circumstances.”

[Gerard]

Could we please get back on topic? There is a reprocessing agreement. Anyone seen the actual text?

[NRao]

India, U.S. finalise reprocessing agreement

This will allow India to retrieve recyclable material found in spent fuel from U.S.-origin nuclear plants for further generating electricity.

Pretty good .......................

Now on to counting atoms.

So ..................... in the second/third stage. Breeding as in Fast Breeder. The output atom from a US atom. Would that have Indian or US citizenship?

[Gerard]

The Fast Breeder would be under IAEA safeguards and the Pu produced would likewise be safeguarded.
The Tarapur spent fuel can now be reprocessed. That fuel originated in the US, China, France and Russia but is owned by India.

[negi]

^ To clarify : The fast breeders which utilize the Pu obtained from reprocessing the spent fuel from the reactors already under the safeguard would be under safeguards by default ?


--post edit

Oh ok got it (added later)

[Anujan]

^ To clarify : The fast breeders which utilize the Pu obtained from reprocessing the spent fuel from the reactors already under the safeguard would be under safeguards by default ?

These are the issues as per my understanding

1. Anything done with anybody's material in reactors marked "Civilian" are automatically under safeguards irrespective of the origin of the fuel

2. Ergo, imported fuel which can be used only in reactors under safeguard, will be automatically under safe guard.

3. It is my understanding that (take it with a bucket of salt) if we import U from Unkil, make Pu from it, use Pu to irradiate Th mined in India to make U from Th, use the U to make more Pu, that resultant Pu is also under safeguards. Using foreign supplied U in any step of any chain "contaminates" the chain (to comply with the clause that nothing which is imported may contribute towards increasing Indian stockpile of fissile material)

4. More stringently, fissile materials cannot be moved from civilian facilities to military facilities, thus (4) in conjunction with (1) further reinforces (3) [this is not strictly true -- there is a "national security clause which allows us to convert any civilian facility to military, but we are talking about "standard operation" here]

5. Nothing to worry or fear. Domestic U and Pu stockpiles, freed from the constraints of electricity generation is more than enough for how many ever bums we choose to make

6. As of now, the bottleneck is not materials but facilities. PFBR needs to become operational, some Pu needs to be used for startup, dont know whats going on with military reprocessing facilities. etc etc