Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 11 Mar 2010 05:57

Excerpts from Arya Chanakya by Sri Vedula Surya Narayana Sarma - Part 1.

On the need to write on Artha (the 2nd purushartha in Dharma, Artha, Kama, and Moksha)

Artha (wealth/security) is the foundation to Dharma. Artha fulfills Kama (desires). By tying Dharma and Kama, realization of Artha ensures human accomplishment. Moreover, our ancestors have written in detail and much about Dharma and Moksha that there is no need for additional texts on those two purusharthas. There are very few books on Artha, and almost none on Kama. I have decided to address this inadequacy.

I have researched various scripts/books written about Artha by Barhaspatas, Manavas, Ausanas, Ambhis, Visalaksha, Vatavyadhi (Vuddhava), Pisana (Naarada), Bharadwaja (Dronacharya), Kaunadampata (Bhishma), and Bahudanti Putra (Indra). I have researched every and any text written on wealth acquisition and management. Unfortunately all those texts focused on Dharma more than Artha. Not only that, the methods suggested in those texts do not apply to current times.

Does it mean Dharma is not time-agnostic?

Dharma and Satya are two sides of the same coin. For example all Indian coins will have the four-lions symbol on one side. The second side of the coin shows the denomination of the coin (10 Paise, 25 Piase, 50 Paise, and 1Rs etc). Here the four-lions symbolizes Satya, which is constant and beyond the concept of time. The Dharma on the other hand changes based on time, ashrama (brahmacharya, grihastha, vanaprastha etc), and varna (brahmana, kshatriya, vaisya, and sudra)

Our ancestors have given high priority to Dharma. But as time passed the Dharma, as mentioned in the texts, has become unattainable to common public. Public interest moved away from Dharma to Artha, as a means to fulfill their desires, Kama. At this point it is very difficult to forcibly divert public attention from Artha to Dharma. In addition to that, the severe punishments prescribed in our Dharma-scripts did not help much in attracting the public into dharmic way of living.

There is no difference between Dharma and Justice as long as the Dharma is defined with providing justice in mind. Our ancestors have written dharma-sutras keeping justice (nyaaya) in mind. But over time the commentators started interpreting these dharma-sutras in literal sense instead of them being principles of justice system. The whole process has become a blind faith, where as it is supposed to have a scientific approach.

For example Danda-Smriti says “yukta karmani chayuktasya = Ayukta is punishable if he does yukta karma”. This principle has been blindly translated into caste system and interpreted as “Sudras and others are punishable if they perform Brahmanic karmas”. No wonder the public stopped appreciating the prevailing justice system and moving away from Dharmic system. It is the responsibility of contemporary commentators (or people who write laws of land) to interpret a dharmic-text in a scientific approach and ensure justice.

I interpreted the above principle in Artha-shastra as “The king/government has the right to define social roles/responsibilities and appoint people to perform/implement them”. Anyone takes law in to their hands, without proper consent and appointment from the government, is punishable.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Mar 2010 10:22

Thanks. How many more so we can decide if we want a new thread to discuss and understand?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 11 Mar 2010 19:59

ramana wrote:Thanks. How many more so we can decide if we want a new thread to discuss and understand?

I think there will be at least 20-30 such posts Ramanaji. I am thinking of this structure

0. Who is Chanakya - done
1. Need for ArthaShastra - done
2. Taxasila University
3. Virtues of Bhedopaya (in Sama, Dana, Bheda, Danda strategies)
4. Yavanas (Greek) advancement into subcontinent
5. Taxasila Students - Revolution
6. Victory at Kashi
7. Recapturing Masakavati (kingdom)
8. Victories in Nangala, Saubhuti, Bhagela kingdoms
9. Preachings
10. History of Nandaraja
11. History of Maurya
12. People revolutions and victories
13. Yavana contraction
14. Chankya's Pratijna (promise/oath)
15. Jeevasiddhi
16. Acquiring help from other kingdoms
17. Victory of Chandragupta
18. Coronation
19. Interest in Raksha (minister)
20. Studying Arthashastra
21. Laying the trap
22. Fake misunderstanding
23. Rakshasa discouraged (from attaching Magadha)
24. Convincing Rakshasa (to accept the prime ministership)
25. Arthashastra - questions and answers
26. Complete victory
27. Arthashastra is for kings and governments

In every chapter I will limit the excerpts to key points, dynamics and strategies. I presume most of us know the story. I also would post some parts of story where it goes against common knowledge.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 11 Mar 2010 22:57

Part 2 - Taxasila University (Excerpts from Sri Vedula Suryanarayana Sarma's Arya Chanakya)

The city is carved out of stones (silas) and got its name Taxasila. The legend is that the university there has been established by Bharata, brother of Sri Rama. This university acted as the central university for all the other universities in subcontinent. Many students from all over the world come here to enhance their knowledge in all kinds of research fields.

The professors in the university are personification of knowledge in the given fields. They are seers themselves and belong to all possible religious schools. The university has a separate wing for each subject matter, be it Vedas, Vedangas, Darshanas, Ayurveda, Mathematics, ArthaShastra, Constitutional sciences, Military sciences, geography and astronomy, mantra sastra, gandharva (fine arts?) etc.,

The key objective of any student is “seeking the truth”, not just knowledge acquisition or education as a mean to earn livelihood or fame. Jeevaka and Gautama (the Buddha) were alumni of this university. Charaka, a student of Atreya formulated his Astanga vidya in this university lab. Swetaketu, who is famed as the best guru in Varanasi, and Panini who wrote Sanskrit grammar are also alumni of this university. More than a hundred kings/princes have been educated in constitutional studies and weaponry etc in this university.

Only students who completed their preliminary and medium-level education (up to 16 years old) and are qualified for higher education are accepted into the university. Each subject area is divided into 7 classes of 1year duration. By the time a student completes all 7 years of study, he becomes a complete authority in that body of knowledge.

The gurus (teachers/professors) in the university are seers themselves and have only one purpose – safekeeping and propagation of Hindu Sanatana Dharma (Hindu eternal knowledge) . Some have given up worldly affiliations, and few others are parivrajakas (wandering monks). The university appointed selected monks and astrologers to wander around all corners of the world and identify children with extraordinary skills or horoscopes and somehow bring them to study in the university.

The university library is a key aspect of this university. It has been established in a huge cave, with more than 1 sq. km area. Machines are setup to keep the air-circulation in the cave pristine in order to safe keep the numerous books and palm leave manuscripts. The books and manuscripts are arranged in large wooden and marble book cases 18-20 feet tall. The library is divided in to subject areas with each subject area maintained under a senior librarian. He guides the research students on which books to read based on their thesis areas. Within a subject area, there are separate librarians for each sub-section who act as teaching assistants in the given area.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 12 Mar 2010 05:47

Part 3 - Political Strategies - Sama, Dana, Bheda, and Danda (excerpts from Sri Vedula Suryanarayana Sarma's Arya Chanakya)

Sukalpacharya (a professor in Taxasila university) : What is your favorite strategy in Sama, Dana, Bheda, and Danda?

Chanakya: Great question. I have thought a lot about this topic. I have analyzed in detail how each strategy works in different scenarios. At the end, I have decided that Bheda is the best strategy to win over enemy kingdoms/governments.

Sukalpacharya: Isn’t Sama the best and non-violent approach? Bheda requires one to be curled/crooked. That is why it is called “Kutila Tantra”. Why did you pick such a curled strategy leaving Sama which is Dharmic, and Dana approaches? Being a Brahmin how could you select such a violent strategy?

Chanakya: It will be fruitless to use Sama, just because it is a non-violent approach. Every strategy has its own advantages and disadvantages depending on the context. I believe that Sama and Dana to be effective while dealing with children, brethren and relatives, Dana and Bheda to be effective in dealing with public, civil, and police superintendents, and finally Bheda and Danda to be effective in dealing with satraps and tribal leaders.

To ensure that the public and citizenry do not collude with enemies the king should use all the three strategies except Danda. Danda is not possible in dealing with large populations. Even when it is possible to use Danda on citizenry it is ineffective and sometimes results in negative consequences. To ensure that citizenry doesn’t collude with enemies, one should buy of the satraps using Sama and Dana and influence the public thru them.

In defeating an enemy, Sama’s utility is very minimum. Dana may work to some extent. But a mortal enemy will not get convinced with those approaches. How much money can we offer to an equal or more powerful enemy, to be effective? Perhaps we can use Dana to some extent as a prelude to Bheda strategy.

Coming to Bheda strategy, it is the most effective in the hands of a leader/strategist, who alert and is capable of analyzing the characteristics of players and circumstances. It works as a magic to such strategists. This is the only strategy that can win over enemies with very little violence, loss of wealth and self-respect. But as you suggested, the whole process in Bheda strategy is curled. It is also true that at times one cannot show any sympathy and kindness in certain circumstances. However, As long as the overall vision and objective is to safeguard dharma and justice and to protect one’s national interests there is nothing wrong in applying this strategy. Of course if other strategies can achieve the overall national interests no need to take up this strategy, but expecting the enemies to be dharmic is not wise.

There is one complexity in this strategy though. The enemy who is defeated using this strategy will not be able to forget his enmity. He will lay low till the right time and attack us when least expected. To ensure that doesn’t happen, one should keep a constant eye on such an enemy. One should establish marital relationship {in contemporary world, develop interdependent trade}, and slowly establish mutual cooperation until that enmity is erased. True statesmen appreciate opponents strategies and intelligence and become friends even when won thru Bheda strategy, but such statesmen are rare.

In summary all strategies are good. It all depends on the context, circumstances and national interests. No strategy is better than the other.

Sukalpacharya: I can see the logic in your approach, but cannot support bheda strategy { }. No wonder your professor “Kalyanacharya” calls you “Kautilya instead of Kautalya” to denote your interest in this crooked strategy. However, I wouldn’t say your thoughts are wrong. As long as your goal is to bring peace and prosperity to the world, any strategy should be good. Aren’t we all using bitter medication to cure our diseases?

By the way for your strategy to be implemented you would need numerous spies, who are good with multiple languages and guises, and are trained in various mantra sastras {applying chemicals to do magic, bio-weapons, etc}. On top of it you would need a king who is dharmic and willing to implement your strategies to the dot.

Indu Sharma (a classmate of Chanakya): There is no scarcity of spies guruji! There are numerous students who are glad to work as spies for Chanakya. They all were trained in the art of martial arts, weaponry, and mantra shastra {chemical, biological, and cosmological weaponry}. Anyone of them can kill someone by throwing knife up to 100 dhanuvus (~200 ft?). This Chankya can throw a knife up to 300 ft.

Sukalpacharya: I do not doubt Chanakya’s ability to gather suitable students. The entire Atharvana branch is under him {Atharvana veda is the home to all martial arts and sciences. If one wants to study Atharvana veda, he has to undergo second upanayana (thread ceremony) as the first upanayana is sufficient is good for Rig, Yajur and Sama Vedas only}. Before him Taxasila university is limited to only three Vedas. After seeing Chanakya’s knowledge in Atharvana veda, our vice-chancellor “Dharmananda” made him head of Atharva department. Thus Chanakya became a student and professor at the same time, and is called “Atharvana Brahmana”.

More over our governing body is planning to make him the head of “Arthashastra” department as well. Then he can get additional students to further his cause. Great going!

Indu Sharma: Not only that guruji. Since the beginning Chanakya use to help many students in their studies, thus gaining their respect and following. He already has more than hundred students who are willing to follow his path. And Chanakya trained them in spy-art and sent them around the subcontinent to gather intelligence, thus giving them necessary practical experience as well. All these hundred plus students are multi-lingual and exceptionally good in associated sciences. Siddharthaka, Nipunaka and Namiddharaka are top rank students in that.

Sukalpacharya: Hmm, how are you guys managing to send all these students on those long trips? How are managing the financial resources?

Indu Sharma: That is a secret. Chanakya, should I tell?

Chanakya: There is no need for secrecy in front of gurus. Go ahead.

Indu Sharma: Dear sir, I too did not know this secret until recently. Our Chanakya is an expert in making fake currency slabs. Using them he prints different types of coinage and stashes them in secret caves. He uses them to support student trips. He also helps many families financially using those fake coins. In addition to that his students earn significant amounts of foreign exchange while on international trips and submit it to Chanakya.

Sukalpacharya: Great! So all ingredients are ready. All you need is a suitable dharmic king. I heard that Dharmananda (the vice-chancellor) brought a young sudra boy from pippalavana {Bihar-Nepal surroundings} and put him in constitutional studies class, along with other princes. Did you guys see that boy?

Indu Sharma: Yes sir, I have seen that boy. He has all astrological symbols denoting a great the qualifications required for a great emperor. Wonder how Dharmananda found such a boy in the forest!

Sukalpacharya: Dharmananda frequently goes on pilgrimages to bring such suitable boys/girls for higher education. He brought that boy from a tribal leader after paying him 300 golden coins. Everyone was saying that boy is sudra.

Chanakya: What is in caste, as long as the person has intelligence, wisdom, knowledge, right attitude, and dharmic outlook? What is the use of a person born in higher caste if he doesn’t have any human characteristics? Even I was bought by Dharmananda to this university. He was roaming around Gautami region (Godavari) {Ramanaji – remember one day you wondered what is there in Godavari waters that make people think differently }, and came to our house when he heard about my astrology. He stayed in our place for seven days and convinced my mother to send me this far.

Sukalpacharya: I know that story about you. It is life ambition of Dharmananda to find people with special qualities and bring them to this great university. I hope one day all his efforts come to fruit, and the world bows to him in gratitude.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Mar 2010 11:04

Thanks for remembering.

Where is part 0?

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 12 Mar 2010 16:00

Saam, Daan, Danda, Bhed are the popular four of the six strategies mentioned in Agni-Purana for dealing with those who are in disagreement with your point of view.

The six strategies are as follows

1. saam - frank talk of persuasion
2. Daan - Monetary rewards
3. Danda - Punishment (as appropriate in given context)
4. Bhed - Insinuation of dissension (Koota-Yuddha)
5. Upeksha - Total "Bahishkaar" of the adversary
6. Indrajaal - Hyponosis

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 12 Mar 2010 20:08

Ramanaji,

I forgot which thread.

I summarized that Arya Chanakya's Andhra-origins, his names, and how he got his names "Kautalya" and "Vatsayana".

I will do it again, if needed.

Chiron-ji - thank you.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Mar 2010 23:57

I started a new thread on the book. I dont recall seeing the part '0' post. Please repost here and the other thread.

Thanks, ramana

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Mar 2010 02:43

A few aphorisms by Chanakya:

1) A person should not be too honest. Straight trees are cut first and honest people are screwed first.”
2) “Even if a snake is not poisonous, it should pretend to be venomous.”
3) “The biggest guru-mantra is: Never share your secrets with anybody. It will destroy you.”
4) “There is some self-interest behind every friendship. There is no friendship without self-interests. This is a bitter truth.”

5) “Before you start some work, always ask yourself three questions – Why am I doing it, What the results might be and Will I be successful. Only when you think deeply and find satisfactory answers to these questions, go ahead.”
6) “As soon as the fear approaches near, attack and destroy it.”
7) “The world’s biggest power is the youth and beauty of a woman.”
8 )“Once you start a working on something, don’t be afraid of failure and don’t abandon it. People who work sincerely are the happiest.”
9) “The fragrance of flowers spreads only in the direction of the wind. But the goodness of a person spreads in all direction.”
10) “Whores don’t live in company of poor men, citizens never support a weak company and birds don’t build nests on a tree that doesn’t bear fruits.”
11) “God is not present in idols. Your feelings are your god. The soul is your temple.”
12) “A man is great by deeds, not by birth.”
13) “Never make friends with people who are above or below you in status. Such friendships will never give you any happiness.”
14) “Treat your kid like a darling for the first five years. For the next five years, scold them. By the time they turn sixteen, treat them like a friend. Your grown up children are your best friends.”
15) “Books are as useful to a stupid person as a mirror is useful to a blind person.”
16) “Education is the best friend. An educated person is respected everywhere. Education beats the beauty and the youth.”

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Mar 2010 02:33

Synopsis of Indian epics:

http://vibhanshu.wordpress.com/

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 28 Mar 2010 07:45

When the Vanaras reach the ocean in their search for Sita, they are disappointed because they have limitations with regard to their jump. Only Hanuman can do the 100 yojanas or more, however he is not sufficiently motivated to do so. It is only on the motivation imparted by Jambavan that Hanuman is able to execute the jump.

So, is this a characteristic of Hanuman that he needs to be reminded of his strengths, weaknesses, excesses in order that he does not do something stupid (like he tried to catch hold of the sun as a boy till Indra smashed him across the jaw with the Vajrayudha)?

Also, does the mountain which rises from the sea during Hanuman's voyage (claiming that it owes a debt to Hanuman's father) have any modern geographical relevance?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 29 Mar 2010 22:51

I was reading/listening Vyasa Mahabharatam and found this very interesting, thus sharing it with all of you:

There are two women in Mahabharata who had children prior to marriage and remained virgins.

1. Satyavati – We all heard about her encounter with Parashara. Later she got married to Santana and had two children “Vichitra Virya, Chitrangada”.
• Parashara approached her to utilize the unique star/planet alignment for the betterment of human-kind. Once he had the sexual union with Satyavati’s consent he left her and that place. He demonstrated his Rishitva. In this case Satyavati made a decision on her own.
• Santana on the other hand got attracted to Satyavati’s (by that time she became Yojanagandhi) beauty and he wanted to marry her. She deferred the decision to her father.

Satyavati’s wisdom is very fascinating here. And this also gives a peek into the freedom of choice women enjoyed in those days.

2. Kunti – Maharshi Durvasa (incarnation of Mahasiva as a son of Anasuya) wanted to test Kunti. He visited her kingdom and Kunti’s father appointed her to serve the Rishi. Impressed by her patience and service Durvasa gives her a boon. She can have a child by inviting any devata consciousness. She was naughty to try to test that mantra and in turn gave birth to Karna.

• Apparently this is what caused Dosha in his karma. In addition to that his behavior towards his gurus caused him to got the life he got.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 29 Mar 2010 23:56

After Parasu Rama’s destroying all Kshatriya kings, Haihayas and Ikshwakas became eligible to wear crowns. From those two clans came 101 kshatriya clans. 14 other clans came from Yayati and Bhoja (does it mean Parasu Rama did not kill these kings?). Jarasandha defeated all these 114 kingdoms.

In Krishna’s fight against Jarasandha (Emperor or Magadha), Krishna got help from Vrishti, Bhoja and Andhaka kingdoms.

In Rajasuya, the following kingdoms/clans became Dharama Raja’s feudatories –

Arjuna went to North (from Indhraprastha) and defeated
1. Pulinda
2. Prati Vindhya
3. Bhadatta
4. Senabindu
5. Viswagaswa
6. Parvateya
7. Barbara
8. Parsi
9. Turka
10. Poundra
11. Kashmira
12. Trigarta
13. Lohita
14. Sudhanva
15. Gandhara
16. Kambhoja
17. Simhapura
18. Nishada

Bhima went East
1. Dasarna (king Sudhanva)
2. Aswaradha (Purochamanu)
3. Chedi (Sisupala)
4. Pulinda
5. Kosala
6. Ayodhya
7. Kasi
8. Matsya
9. Malava
10. Karnata
11. South Malla
12. Chandrasena (Kingdom?)
13. Poundraka Vasudeva (Kingdom?)

Sahadeva went south
1. Mitra
2. Surasena
3. Datta
4. Yavana
5. Gosringa mountain kingdom?
6. Kunti Bhoja (alliance)
7. Jambhaka
8. Mahismati (city state?) king Neela
9. Rukmi
10. Bhismaka
11. Surpaka
12. Anekapada
13. Kakamukha
14. Karnapravaraka
15. Rakshasa
16. Pandya
17. Kerala
18. Kalinga
19. Dravida
20. Yavana
21. Kara
22. Hataka
23. Srilanka (interesting that the kings name is Vibheeshana at that time too)

Nakula went westward
1. Mahitaka (here the kings Dattaka and Mayuka are Sudra kings)
2. Maru
3. Malava
4. Barbara
5. Karnata
6. Hataka
7. Pushkara
8. Many statelets between Saraswati and Sindhu rivers
9. Panchajana Simhya (Punjab?)
10. Yadu mountain
11. Then met Sri Krishna in Dwaraka
12. Met with his maternal uncle Salya in Sakalya
13. Barbara tribes in western ocean

The interesting difference between Jarasandha’s Rajasuya and Dharmaraja’s Rajasuya is

Jarasandha too defeated all those kingdoms/kings. In Sanatana Dharma the king was not supposed to be killed (like in Chess) but to be defeated and captured alive. Jarasandha forego this approach and jailed all those kings and conducted human sacrifices to Bhairava.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 30 Mar 2010 00:01

RamaY wrote: In Sanatana Dharma the king was not supposed to be killed (like in Chess) but to be defeated and captured alive. Jarasandha forego this approach and jailed all those kings and conducted human sacrifices to Bhairava.

Didn't know that, do you mean as part of the Rajasuya, or in general?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Mar 2010 00:06

In general.

It explains the repeated setting free of Ghori type sultans by Hindu kings.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 30 Mar 2010 00:09

I was referring to the human sacrifices, were they done by Jarasandha as part of the Rajasuya, or was his crime to do them in general?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 30 Mar 2010 00:16

In Kalyug, Dharma is different . This Yuga Dharma require not onlee the slicing of Ghori or Qasim's neck but of all those too who cheer them. Practicing Satyugi or Dwapari Dharma in this age is invitation to self annihilation. No doubt our adversaries/ enemies keep trying to divert our attention , undermine the Texts/pics so we keep scattering our energies and not get to work on real targets.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 30 Mar 2010 00:17

Carl_T wrote:I was referring to the human sacrifices, were they done as part of the Rajasuya, or was his crime to do them in general?

You mean Jarasandha's human-sacrifices?

He wanted to achieve super-human powers. He did a penance for Rudra and got the boon that he cannot be killed by any weapon.

He wanted to achieve even greater strength and started offering the defeated kings as human-sacrifices to Bhariava (a common tantra Devata').

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 30 Mar 2010 00:18

Prem wrote:In Kalyug, Dharma is different . This Yuga Dharma require not onlee the slicing of Ghori or Qasim's neck but of all those too who cheer them. Practicing Satyugi or Dwapari Dharma in this age is invitation to self annihilation. No doubt our adversaries/ enemies keep trying to divert our attention , undermine the Texts/pics so we keep scattering our energies and not get to work on real targets.

Oh I am all for that to defend Dharma (that is what Krishna encouraged Pandavas to do).

I am just presenting the texts as is.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 30 Mar 2010 01:53

This translation of William Buck is very interesting….

After Draupadi Swayamvara

Kunti welcomed Draupadi, and Arjuna said, “Princess, this is our mother Kunti. I am Arjuna, that is Bhima, that is Yudhisthira, that is Sahadeva, and that is Nakula!”

The Pandavas all looked at Draupadi, and the Princess of Panchala looked at them. Then his brothers looked at Arjuna, and he said, “Yes.”.
Draupadi said, “This I will do!”

Someone called from the doorway, “Arjuna!” and they all went to see who it was. Two men stood there, one dark and the other fair. The dark one said, “Let us in, lest any see,” and Arjuna let them enter.

“I am Krishna,” said the dark stranger, “and this is my elder brother Balarama. Kunti, we were sure you and your sons still lived. Draupadi, you have chosen well. We came to the swayamvara to watch, from our home by the sea.”

Arjuna said, “Majesty, I…”

Krishna laughed. “Bharata, I am no king! Listen – since long ago have I known you. Those lives I remember. Those lives I remember, but you do not. But we must go now, so no one will find you here.”

This matches with Sri Hebbar Nageswararao’s article that I posted in Indian Interests thread.

Looks like Mahabharat got b*sterdized by our own vernacular translations, Harikathas, stage plays, movies and finally TV serials.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Mar 2010 02:05

Can you repost the Hebbar article?
Thanks ramana

While searching for William Buck's book, I found a reference to this book by Sri Venkatachellam Iyer written in 1922.

Its in many e-reader formats:

http://www.archive.org/details/notesofs ... 00venkiala

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 30 Mar 2010 02:29

God bless you ArmenT. Your Gabbar-Singh works like charm!

Highlighted the point in discussion.

As per the History written by Bharatiyaas (Indians) Lord Krishna lived during the end days of Dwapara eon. He passed away 5109 years before present day. Before that Krishna lived for 120 years. The Mahabharata war happened in 3138BC. In this background the historical facts about Sri Krishna and Balarama become more meaningful.

Krishna is India’s first statesman. He inspired entire India with his nationalistic vigor. But neither became a king or monarch nor he ruled the populace.

Before Krishna’s birth, the ‘Bruhadradha’ clan has been ruling the Bharata varsha for almost 1000 years with ‘Girivraja’ as the capital. Girivraja was todays Magadha area. ‘Jarasandha’m, ruler of Girivraja, was that days monarch for India.

Naraka from ‘Pragjyotisha’ (present day North East) has been plundering eastern India. Attacking Indian culture and border states.

South-indian kingdoms didn’t recognize Jarasandha’s hegomany. Kamsa was ruling the Mathura kingdom, which is located west of Magadha. Gonanda clan of Kashmir were followers of Jarasandha. Between Mathura and Kashmir was Kuru kingdom. Eventhough Bhishma was a great leader, he denounced the kingdom and was busy with family affairs, thus becoming ineffective in addressing national issues. Videha and Vidharbha kings were totally useless. The Kiraata clan kings of Nepal stayed as mere spectators to Narakaa’s south-western moves. To west of Kashmir was Gandhara and further south was Madra. Both these kingdoms started drifting away from hindu national culture and being influenced by external tribal cultures.

Magadha, irrespective of being the centre of the Bharata-varsha and cultural leader, became ineffective in fulfilling its role as protector of the culture and Bharata varsha. More over Magadha’s social order became a mess with so many unnatural tendencies. Cannibalism became a fashion among few cults. New interpretations of Vedas and Upanishads have come up.

In such a background Krishna and Krishna Dwaipayana Vyasa entered Indian social and political scene. Due to their enmity with Kamsa, Krishna and Balarama spent most of their childhood away from Mathura. Krishna killed Kamsa when he was 12 years old. Kamsa’s father Ugrasena became king to Mathura. Jarasandtha was Kamsa’s father-in-law. Thus Jarasamtha, the emperor , has become lifelong enemy of Krishna and tried to get back at him. In the process Jarasamtha gave up his responsibility towards Bharata Varsha.

Krishna felt the necessity of removing Jarasantha as he is going away from Bharatiyata or sanatana-dharma. But to protect the cultural and national integrity, removal of Magatha king requires another able power center.

Per Krishna’s strategy, Jarasantha’s death is the first step in achieving Indian cultural and national integrity. Setting up the alternate power center is second step. Establishing the literary foundation for thus re-united national culture is third step. Krishna is the only leader who achieve all these three objectives of his strategy.

The decision about who should be the new emperors had been made after Draupadi swayamvaram. He propped-up the Pandavas after this incident. Killing of Hidimba and Bakasura by Bhima and Destroying the Matsya Yantra during the swayamvara became symbols of Pandavas’ capabilities. Thus Krishna showed his statesmanship in electing the righteous and sanatana-dharma-worshipping Pandavas as future emperors of India.

The household issue of Kuru and Pandavas is a small issue. If resolving this issue is the objective, Krishna would have killed Duryodhana after Subadhra and Arjuna’s marriage and made Pandava’s new kings of Hastinapura.

But Krishna’s enemity is with Jarasantha and his inability in protecting the national and cultural integrity of Bharata varsha. That is why he encouraged Yudhistara (Dharmaraja) to conduct ‘Rajasuya yaga’ so he can introduce all the kings and kingdoms in Bharata varsha to Pandavaas.

Conducting rajasuya while there is an emperor (Jarasandha) in the land means questioning the authority of Jarasandha. That is why Bhima killed Jarasantha. This is all part of Krishna’s strategy. Entire Bharata varsha believed in the capabilities of Pandavas with the killing of Jarasantha.

In addition to building an alternate power center, rejuvenating the veda based national-cultural identity is also highly important. Vedas are the foundation of our national culture. With the help of Krishna Dwaipayana (Veda Vyasa) he revived the sanatana dharma. Vyasa organized the Vedas as per contemporary needs. Naimisaranya and Badarikaranya became the new scientific and literary centers.

Even after achieving these epic tasks, Krishna didn’t became the ruler or king. A true statesman is not limited just to the political aspect of nation building. In the national-cultural leadership, politics is just one part. This is the outlook of Indians. This is India’s culture. And Krishna is the epitome of this culture. If this Son-of-India’s creation lived and survived for 5000 years in spite of numerous military, cultural and religious onslaughts, what is wrong in calling Krishna god’s avataar?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Mar 2010 02:32

Thanks. I remember this early psot.

Now try to read the book I posted above.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 30 Mar 2010 09:14

Thanks for great find,,
Just ordered the book from Amazon.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 30 Mar 2010 09:55

No offense to anyones beliefs -
but Krishna was the SDRE that made us proud

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Mar 2010 10:16

Pulikeshi, A Telugu uty art gallery

http://teluguuniversity.ac.in/museum/pa ... akesi.html

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 30 Mar 2010 11:50

On what grounds did Santanu come to inherit King Bharata's throne? Was he distantly related to the king or was it because he was an able minister/statesperson?

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 30 Mar 2010 13:00

RamaY wrote:This translation of William Buck is very interesting….

After Draupadi Swayamvara
Kunti welcomed Draupadi, and Arjuna said, “Princess, this is our mother Kunti. I am Arjuna, that is Bhima, that is Yudhisthira, that is Sahadeva, and that is Nakula!”

The Pandavas all looked at Draupadi, and the Princess of Panchala looked at them. Then his brothers looked at Arjuna, and he said, “Yes.”.
Draupadi said, “This I will do!”

Someone called from the doorway, “Arjuna!” and they all went to see who it was. Two men stood there, one dark and the other fair. The dark one said, “Let us in, lest any see,” and Arjuna let them enter.

“I am Krishna,” said the dark stranger, “and this is my elder brother Balarama. Kunti, we were sure you and your sons still lived. Draupadi, you have chosen well. We came to the swayamvara to watch, from our home by the sea.”

Arjuna said, “Majesty, I…”

Krishna laughed. “Bharata, I am no king! Listen – since long ago have I known you. Those lives I remember. Those lives I remember, but you do not. But we must go now, so no one will find you here.”
This matches with Sri Hebbar Nageswararao’s article that I posted in Indian Interests thread.

Looks like Mahabharat got b*sterdized by our own vernacular translations, Harikathas, stage plays, movies and finally TV serials.

I think this was done by William buck for some other reason. This isnt the correct story is it? In the preface it is clearly written that he made many changes that suited him (or he thought would be more understandable for the western reader).
Also, one Amazon review lists these few differences-

(i) Draupadi volunteering to become the shared wife of the Pandavas rather than this being the unintended result of their mother Kunti's edict to share the treasure that they brought home that day, (ii) Arjuna marrying Princess Uttarah instead of his son Abhimanyu, (iii) Krishna killing Duhsasana before the war instead of Bhima during the war, and (iv) Prince Uttara breaking the Kurus' battle formation instead of Abhimanyu. Even Yudhishtira's final trial before his entry into heaven is presented by Buck only as a dream.

Arjun marrying Uttarah? Then what about Parikshit? Krishna killing Dushasana before war? And Uttara breaking formation? So it seems he left Abhimanyu completely out.

Edit: But props must be given to Buck as it seems that he has kept the the feeling of awe intact. Many reviews suggest that the wondrous feeling attached with Mahabharata is intact, which I presume is pretty hard to do when translating something from Sanskrit to English.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 30 Mar 2010 13:16

RamaY wrote:23. Srilanka (interesting that the kings name is Vibheeshana at that time too)

RamaY sir, I think you know that Vibheeshana is supposed to be one of 8 Chiranjeevin. I'm guessing that after the War of Lanka, there would've hardly been any worthy male/rakshasa in Lanka left alive, let alone rule. Moreover, this fact is evinced in the Ramayana itself where it is shown that Lanka is left a smoldering mess with the wails of widows and that there were no signs of men at all, the battlefield was strewn with the bodies of men etc.

I do not have the exact word to word with me, the above is just a loose translation.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 30 Mar 2010 19:37

Kalus garu,

You are right about Vibheeshana(his (4) ministers too remained alive at the end of Ramayana war). It is possible that he ruled Lanka thru Dwapara Yuga as well.

Some where I heard that Ramayana happened in the Treta Yuga in some other Manvantara (current Manvantara is Vaivaswata Manvantara) and 27 Maha Yugas passed between Ramayana and Mahabharata (I will get exact details later).

More over none of these chiranjeevins would remain in their physical in all Yugas. For example Lord Hanuma did not appear in his earthly body during Dwaparayuga. He appeared only to Bhima on his journey to devaloka (for Parijaata flower).

My gut feeling is that Vibheeshana is a Dwapara Yuga king who is named after the original Vibheeshana. This is very common practice all over the world. I used to have class mate in intermediate whose name is Apparao, whose father's name is Apparao, grand father Apparao, great grand-father Apparao and so on. Every new generation is given that name in respect for the baby-boy's grand-father

That is why our Puranas and Epics are confusing (for escapists) to record the history correctly. We can see this trend in western history as well. Rama I, Rama II, ... Rama CCIX and so on.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Mar 2010 20:36

Rama I, Rama II, ... Rama CCIX and so on.

...to Rama Y!

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 30 Mar 2010 23:05

Actually, the naming skips a generation. Grandfather's name is given to Grandson. It is rare for father to give his name to the son. In western societies, it is common for father and son to have same name (Bill Gates Jr etc).

The Mysore wodeyars have the convention I mentioned, that is grandfather's name being given to grandson.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 30 Mar 2010 23:24

RamaY wrote:Looks like Mahabharat got b*sterdized by our own vernacular translations, Harikathas, stage plays, movies and finally TV serials.

With due apologies: Mahabharat seems to be a "layering" of stories and substories -- some subtle and some not so subtle. Let me give you an example

First a background: According to Advaita principles, you should desire the "punya" while doing charity for you to accumulate good Karma. Doing charity without this desire will not earn you any brownie points. (it becomes merely sacrifice. For example, if I have no desire for money and dont care if you take it, the good punya of giving you the money is not earned). Even the accumulation of this good Karma (and equivalently bad Karma) keeps you in the birth-death cycle. However on the other hand, if you realize that this world is an illusion and move away from the dualistic distinction of "good" and "bad" (which are ultimately interpreted in the context of actions done in this world which is an illusion), you attain realization.

This is beautifully illustrated in one of the version of Mahabharata.

Karna is grievously wounded and is laying on the battlefield. Subsequent arrows fired by Arjuna does not touch Karna & Karna does not die because all his punya is guarding his soul and is preventing him from dying. Karna is in great pain and is suffering. Krishna, dressing up as a brahmin goes to him and Karna says "You come to me in the battlefield at the moment of my death. I have nothing to give you". Krishna tells him "I am a brahmin and do not desire for any material wealth. I want all of your punya accumulated due to your charity". Karna obliges, sees Krishna as what he truly is -- A vishwa roopa encompassing all of the universe and all activities of creation, preservation and destruction. Devoid of the punya which was prolonging his suffering and having realized the all encompassing brahman, Karna peacefully dies.

Now Advaita was clearly enunciated in this fashion by Adi Shankara who was many eons after Mahabharata. Is it purely coincidence that the story nicely fits in with his advaita doctrine or was it a later embellishment?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 31 Mar 2010 01:14

Anujan-ji I do not know much (I just regurgitate

) but this is my take on Advaita.

Karma – as long as one is attached to it, will result in some karmic results; swarga loka if one gains all good-karma, non-human life if one has all bad-karma, and human life with a mix of good and bad karma. The path to realization is one doing his karma without any attachment, then the results too are not attached to the soul – thus jeevanmukti (liberation while alive) in Advaita (different from Kaivalya in dwaita – where the soul has to leave the physical body). In jeevanmukti the jeeva (not atman) may continue pay the karmic duties of any old debts. The sufferings of Ramana Maharsi, Ramakrishna Paramahamsa and Sankara Bhagavatpada even after self-realization are said to be that.

In Advaita, the desire to gain punya by a mumukshu (one that seeks moksha alone, not moksha too along with other goodies like swarga-sukha etc) is to achieve “Antah-karana-suddhi” (achieved by mixing su-karma with bhakti) and be ready for guru’s jnana-bodha. The process of guru giving the jnana to an eligible mumukshu doesn’t take much time. It is said that the knowledge-transfer happens instantaneously and then there is no difference between the guru and sishya.

One of the speeches I heard explained it beautifully. Imagine there is an un-lit lamp (sishya) on the stage and your brought another lit-lamp (guru) and brought them together then one can see the first lamp being lit (shishya gaining jnana and being liberated). But imagine one brought two lit lamps from another room, one cannot distinguish the light and cannot discern guru and sishya.

Coming to your example:

Karna was not a mumukshu (by above definition) to start with, so there is no question of him achieving self-realization. Of course his good karma might have protected him from Arjuna’s arrows but that good karma is nothing but an invisible shield. There is no process of realization.

That said, I guess this example could be a good-case where legend overshadowing the original epic (Harikatha effect). I do not know what is the truth anymore until I can get my hands on original Sanskrit Vyasa Bharata.

For some reason great efforts have been made to show Karna as a great person by calling him Dana (he is a great charitable-person but our legends talk about Bali, Sibi, Dadhichi, Rantideva etc when it comes to charity), Veera (He didn’t show this quality when Sakuna suggested jooda-vyuha or while killing Abhimanyu in Padmavyuha) , and Sura (he did not win a single battle when needed – saving Jayadradha, Uttara-gow-grahana, Padma-vyuha etc) Karna. I definitely like him for following his swa-dharma and character in denouncing the offer made by Krishna before the war. I strongly believe that once true character can be assessed based on how one behaves at the lowest point in their life; do they still show kindness, magnanimity, honesty, and brevity?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 31 Mar 2010 01:36

RamYa
Since Karna had the Sakshat Darshan of Lord ,then how could he remain in Karmic bondage?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 31 Mar 2010 02:55

Prem wrote:RamaY
Since Karna had the Sakshat Darshan of Lord ,then how could he remain in Karmic bondage?

I doubt. He, along with 18 Akshauhinis of army didn't see the Viswaroopa during Bhagavad Gita. Neither he saw Bhagavat Swaroopa when Krishna shown his Viswaroopa during rayabara - only two/three people saw it (Vidura, Bhisma, and Dhritarashtra IIRC).

Millions had seen Krishna during that avatar. Only very few has seen him as Nirguna Param (Narada, Uddhava, Arjuna=Nara, Draupadi, Bhishma, Vidura, Rukmini, Radha, Gopikas etc). Few others have seen him as a Bhagavan (demi-god?), majority as another king/human, and few as an enemy.

I will tell a story from Bhagavatam - that beautifully explains how even the realized get into maya.

One fine day Srishtikarta Brahma (he doesn't exist in unmanifest; he is the manifest aspect of Param) came to know about the Govardhana Giri and how Indra was put in place. Brahma wanted to test (to know) whether the bala-krishna is truely the Param.

Just a day before Krishna killed a great snake on the way to nanda-vraja (Remember this point. This is the reference for time).

He first hides the entire cattle group. Then he hides the gopala who went to check for them. Only Krishna and Balarama were left. Krishna at this instance praises Balarama (very rare in Bhagavata) and asks him to rest while he goes and gets the gopalas and cattle.

Krishna takes the form of each gopala, cow, calf and so on and goes to thier respective homes and behaves as if they were the real ones.

No one except Krishna and Brahma know this. Even Balarama couldn't figure out what is happening, eventhough he suspects something has changed in the character (divine) of those thousands of cattle, gopala etc.,

It goes on for a year.

Then Brahma realizes that he is playing with the Param and releases the true gopalas.

The next day when gopalas take their cattle for grazing they notice that the great snake turned into a pile of bones just in one day.

By one measure what we see day-in and day-out (including ourselves) is Bhavat-swaroopa. We just do not be aware and conscious of it.

If we can do that we are liberated.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 31 Mar 2010 03:15

Basically, Karna , at death bed ,did not get the ultimate benefit from the presence of Lord Krishna. I was under the impression that Parbrahm remain same in manifestation or in non manifested state/non state and that HIS presence destroy all Karmic bonds of Gyanis, Vigyansi or Agyanis alike. Then again i read somewhere that karma exist onlee in Maya and so does bondage as they ask "who require freedom, from what and from whom or by whom" for there in original reality exist onlee One in whom all desired, aspirations,goals are fulfilled not that He has any of these.(something like this). AFAIK, Vedas do not exhort liberation as liberation is just a some kind of by-product of Realization.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 31 Mar 2010 04:19

Prem wrote:Basically, Karna , at death bed ,did not get the ultimate benefit from the presence of Lord Krishna. I was under the impression that Parbrahm remain same in manifestation or in non manifested state/non state and that HIS presence destroy all Karmic bonds of Gyanis, Vigyansi or Agyanis alike. Then again i read somewhere that karma exist onlee in Maya and so does bondage as they ask "who require freedom, from what and from whom or by whom" for there in original reality exist onlee One in whom all desired, aspirations,goals are fulfilled not that He has any of these.(something like this). AFAIK, Vedas do not exhort liberation as liberation is just a some kind of by-product of Realization.

Vedas proclaim that God is satyam, anantam, jnaanam!

If God is omnipresent (anantam) then nothing can exist beyond it. If there exists something outside Param then the omnipresence quality of God fails and it would fall from God to god.

Purusha Sukta says (Here the subject-matter is Virat-Purusha = Purnatvat iti Poorusha = Purushat param kinchit Na = unmanifest god-consciousness)

sahasra SIrshA purusha: | sahasrAksha: sahasrapAt |
sa bhUmim vishvato vRtvA | atyatishTad daSAngulam || 1 ||

That (Purusha) covers you, the earth, universe and goes 10 units beyond that. Here 10 number is veda-language, similar to sahasra=1000 heads, eyes, legs. If one to have 1000 heads, then there should be 2000 eyes and 2000 legs. Here sahasra denotes ‘infinite’ as commented by Sayanacharya “sahsra sabdasya upa-lakshantvat’ anantaihi sirobhihi yukta, ityarthaha” in his Veda-bhashya. This is like the variable ‘x’ in algebra.

Code: Select all

B-ji: Remember my analogy of Purusha with body-of-USA? I was pleasantly surprised to hear that exact analogy in this speech.

As is, this Param has no liking or disliking to anyone or anything (this is what Sri Krishna says in Bhagavad Gita). He reflects upon the karmic-actions in the form of Dharma (Ramo’ vigrahavan Dharmaha! = Rama is the embodiment of Dharma ).

By being part of such Param, we are liberated time-eternal. We come into 'being' by the consciousness of our existence. This awareness is called Ego. The bindu in Sri-chakra is Param (purnam) This is surrounded by five senses of perception (five downward pointing triangles) and four upward pointing triangles - Mano(emotional mind), Bhuddhi (intellect), Chitta (individual consciousness) and Ahamkara (ego). The rest of the perceived universe is a various combinations/permutations of these 9 triangles. By nature, entropy increases and we move away from the centre. The Mumukshu stops this outward pull and starts his journey inwards and this is our Ashtanga Yoga…

I will stop here.

Disclaimer: This is what I understood so far based on various speeches/books I came across. I am a novice in this field. Kindly correct me if I am wrong.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 31 Mar 2010 04:52

RamaYa,
I was talking from the POV of We being Soul and not Jiva . Karma, Dharma, Sharma, Verma, False Ego, Mind , Intellect, Senses etc all must melt away in the "presence' or at the manifestation of Supreme Authority or Lord , weather in Nirguni or Sarguni form . This is why i was confused that Jiva Karna was not beneficiary of Ultimate Blessing even when Lord Krishna was present at the time of his "death'. The "Kore" issue is not Karna and his karma but Krishna and His very presence . Remind me of the dilemma Kabir had about why to be afraid of Giddhars when one is under the protection of Lion. In the presence of Lord,all these limited qualifications must fall or melt away like Desi Ghee near fire or.....