Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

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shaardula
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by shaardula »

the old is it science question:
In The Wall Street Journal, Russ Roberts of George Mason University wondered why economics is even considered a science. Real sciences make progress. But in economics, old thinkers cycle in and out of fashion. In real sciences, evidence solves problems. Roberts asked his colleagues if they could think of any econometric study so well done that it had definitively settled a dispute. Nobody could think of one.

“The bottom line is that we should expect less of economists,” Roberts wrote.
David Brooks on where economics is heading:
Act I in this history would be set in the era of economic scientism
Act II would occur over the past few decades, as a few brave economists tried to move beyond this stick-figure view of humanity.
Then the story would come to Act III, the economic crisis of 2008 and 2009. This act is a climax of sorts because it exposed the shortcomings of the whole field. Economists and financiers spent decades building ever more sophisticated models to anticipate market behavior, yet these models did not predict the financial crisis as it approached. In fact, cutting-edge financial models contributed to it by getting behavior so wrong — helping to wipe out $50 trillion in global wealth and causing untold human suffering.
This would bring the historian to Act IV, the period of soul-searching that we are living through now. More than a year after the event, there is no consensus on what caused the crisis. Economists are fundamentally re-evaluating their field
.
In The Wall Street Journal, Russ Roberts of George Mason University wondered why economics is even considered a science. Real sciences make progress. But in economics, old thinkers cycle in and out of fashion. In real sciences, evidence solves problems. Roberts asked his colleagues if they could think of any econometric study so well done that it had definitively settled a dispute. Nobody could think of one.

“The bottom line is that we should expect less of economists,” Roberts wrote.

In a column called “A Crisis of Understanding,” Robert J. Shiller of Yale pointed out that the best explanation of the crisis isn’t even a work of economic analysis. It’s a history book — “This Time is Different” by Carmen M. Reinhart and Kenneth S. Rogoff — that is almost entirely devoid of theory.

One gets the sense, at least from the outside, that the intellectual energy is no longer with the economists who construct abstract and elaborate models. Instead, the field seems to be moving in a humanist direction. Many economists are now trying to absorb lessons learned by psychologists, neuroscientists and sociologists.
In Act IV, in other words, economists are taking baby steps into the world of emotion, social relationships, imagination, love and virtue. In Act V, I predict, they will blow up their whole field.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by Neshant »

Beware of investing in paper gold aka GLD type gold ETFs and companies offering unallocated storage of your gold in vaults located in far off Switzerland and London. They don't have the gold in the vault. But they collect etf money anyway selling that non-existant gold to investors.

Many foreign financial firms are looking to push paper gold ETFs and other such investment products into India with the (empty) vaults allegedly overseas.

If you are going to invest in gold, always take physical possession of it.

------
Former Goldman Commodities Research Analyst Confirms LMBA OTC Gold Market Is "Paper Gold" Ponzi

LBMA trades over 100 times the amount of gold it actually has to back the trades.

"in the “physical market” as the market uses that term, there is much more metal than that…there is a hundred times what there is." And there you have it: as Douglas eloquently summarizes: "the giant Ponzi trading of gold ledger entries can be sustained only if there is never a liquidity crisis in the REAL physical market. If someone asks for gold and there isn’t any the default would trigger the biggest “bank run” and default in history. This is, of course, why the Central Banks lease their gold or sell it outright to the bullion banks when they are squeezed by high demand for REAL physical gold that can not be met from their own stocks" and concludes "Almost every day we hear of a new financial fraud that has been exposed. The gold and silver market fraud is likely to be bigger than all of them. Investors in their droves, who have purchased gold in good faith in “unallocated accounts”, are going to demand delivery of their metal. They will then discover that there is only one ounce for every one hundred ounces claimed. They will find out they are “unsecured creditors”.

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/former ... gold-ponzi
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by Neshant »

An economic puzzle Bernanke can't solve

http://ca.news.finance.yahoo.com/s/2803 ... solve.html

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - It's a mystery that has puzzled even Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke: if the U.S. economy is growing rapidly, why isn't it creating jobs?
Neshant
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by Neshant »

Bernanke Says U.S. Fiscal Outlook ‘Somewhat Dark’

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... ZovxiCCEdE

The guy will end up printing the money to plug the debt.

No way are politicians going to risk raising taxes to pay for the croney capitalism, bailouts & bonuses.

They rather bernanke take the blame for inflating rather than they take the fall for confiscating wealth - even though the end result is the same.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by James B »

Jon Stewart of Daily show rips apart wall street corporations in this satire. Nice watch.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episod ... 0-jude-law
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by SwamyG »

Robert Shiller on Bloomberg TV puts the probability of a double dip, of economy, at 50-50. He points out this is very high and possibly the second time after the 1930s.
ramana
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by ramana »

SwamyG wrote:Robert Shiller on Bloomberg TV puts the probability of a double dip, of economy, at 50-50. He points out this is very high and possibly the second time after the 1930s.

Can the gurus dig deeper into this? Why does he say that and what are the signs and pre-cursors of it? And how deep will the next dip be? Shallow or valley?

Hari please take lead on this.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by SwamyG »

^^^
ramana garu: Shiller is not confident about the housing market yet. He points out there was a sharp recovery a year ago and is getting weaker based on the outlook. He adds the outlook is iffy because of the government withdrawal of support for the housing market.

Here is the Bloomberg video linky: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... 3dtH04wTfE

Actually it is the Fed that is pulling out of the mortgage market. It is not a breaking news, there has been warnings earlier of this happening.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by ramana »

But why is Fed withdrawing from the mortgage market if it hasnt yet recovered? Are they worried about something else failing and hence need the flexibility to tackle that un-named crisis?
Neshant
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by Neshant »

they will pull out with the right hand but support it under the table with the left hand to maintain the illusion of confidence until people are fooled into buying houses.

however none of these people realise that the lack of a productive new industry that can create jobs is at the heart of the problem. Since 2000, there has been no new industry that has emerged that can generate well paying jobs on a massive scale. The housing industry was a sham and the financial "industry" turns out to be nothing more than a bunch of middle men skimming money from the real economy.

all the financing & high rolling will not do anything. Barring money printing which is just robbery of people who have saved their fiat, prices should go to the level of demand. Bankers don't want prices to decline and become affordable as it does not suite theiir agenda of making people pay 30 years of mortgage for a house. That's the problem.

When you think of it, its stupid. Why should anyone spend 30, 20 or even 10 years of their life paying for a house.
SwamyG
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by SwamyG »

ramana wrote:But why is Fed withdrawing from the mortgage market if it hasnt yet recovered? Are they worried about something else failing and hence need the flexibility to tackle that un-named crisis?
Short answer: Dunno.
That is the same question many experts are raising, including Stiglitz. It looks like Fed is just allowing its MBS program to end tomorrow (Wednesday). The long term mortgage rates are likely to jump causing takleef to the housing market.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by RamaY »

^^^

Cutting losses and moving out?
SwamyG
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by SwamyG »

Neshant wrote:When you think of it, its stupid. Why should anyone spend 30, 20 or even 10 years of their life paying for a house.
10 years is very reasonable, wouldn't you say? Say 2-bedroom apartment's average rent is $1000. In an year it works out to be $1200. And in 10 years that is $120,000. I doubt if one can go and buy a decent house below that price. One might get houses below that price they might be foreclosed or need to be fixed.

In Unkilland, house is just a means to tie the consumer to the economy. With the house, one gets entangled with mortgages, insurance, appliances, cars to drive around suburbs, landscapers, utilities, handymen .... itiyadi.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by Suraj »

The Fed's MBS purchase program was part of qualiitative easing. That they would end the program at the end of March 2010 was announced many months ago, if not at the outset of initiating the program. Here's a contrarian perspective on the matter from Fidelity's recent newsletter:
Fidelity Viewpoints March 23 2010
Q: Do you see anything on the horizon that could improve credit availability?

A: Right now we have a stalemate. Many borrowers have been unable to get loans. While consumers' views of home buying have improved, they haven't translated into a concomitant rise in home buying. That problem resides with the lenders. Many lenders have been afraid to lend. But I think the latter is about to change for two reasons. One, the Fed, which has been the 800-pound gorilla in the mortgage market, is going to stop buying mortgage-backed securities at the end of March. While the Fed's involvement in the mortgage market has, I think, created very low rates, it also has increased private investors' uncertainty over what the true market clearing price has been in this market. Ironically, even though the Fed's exit will likely lead to incrementally higher mortgage rates, it may encourage the private sector to step in as uncertainty over true prices is resolved. The other key indicator that lenders will reengage in the mortgage market comes from the yield curve. Essentially, the steep yield curve (a large difference between long and short interest rates) signals that there are significant incentives for the financial sector to begin lending. Put more simply, with current mortgage rates in the vicinity of 5%, 10-year Treasuries at 3.6%, the LIBOR rate close to 0%, a queue of very high quality borrowers, and a job recovery, I think the willingness to lend will continue to improve.
Personally, I'll wait and see how the rates look in April-May.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by paramu »

Doesn't the Fidelity report look like a sugar candy, rather than a well reasoned report?

No way the private players can give mortgage loans at current low rates, when economic outlook and mortgage default potential are grim. When "real" (read, not Fed's proxy) private players come to the market, they have to increase the interest rate to cover the risks present in the current market. And we all know what could happen if interest rates go up.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by SwamyG »

It is tiring to hear the banks are not lending to each other. WTF did they get all the money and bail out for, uh? Bailed out banks bigger, powerful and more dangerous now

Instead of the money given to the banks, governments should have given the money direct to the consumers er citizens.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by Neshant »

10 years is very reasonable, wouldn't you say? Say 2-bedroom apartment's average rent is $1000. In an year it works out to be $1200. And in 10 years that is $120,000. I doubt if one can go and buy a decent house below that price.
10 years is not reasonable to me. Its only reasonable if you allowed yourself to be brainwashed by banking propaganda into thinking that wasting 1/4th of your productive working life is a sensible thing.

Housing prices are way too high and banks want to keep it at those over-inflated prices to have people slaving away to pay it off. That racket however is coming to an end notwithstanding what I call "the preaching of false economics" coming from banks to keep the scam rolling.

Ideally prices should crash by a good 60 to 70% and return to the point where it costs not more than an annual salary to purchase a house. That's the way it was back in the 40s where it took about a year's/year and a half salary to purchase a home. That is affordable. Right now its down only 30% while the racket of bankers (federal reserve) raiding taxpayers and savers to keep prices up continues.

On a continent where land and building material is abundant and ton of houses can be constructed within a season... where old people are set to die in droves leaving mcmansions... and with a glut of inventory as is, there is no reason prices should be sky high. Yet its defying the law of financial gravity.

Ideally after this crash the (real) recovery can then begin on solid ground. It would eliminate one of the major costs of doing business (land).

I expect bankers to spend the taxpayer and savers of fiat into the ground trying to fight this while preaching false economics all the way.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by RamaY »

X Posting.

Ramanaji used to ask for a summary on this thread. Looks like the chips are falling in place.

Europe
UKistan
Massaland
PRC
ME (Iran and KSA)

Now one has to see how the Indian economic [sic] trinity (MMS, PC, and Montek) use this rare opportunity to pursue Indian strategic interests. I would judge them on this single point alone and can forgive them for all 26/11s if they can make India a winner in this area.
Muppalla wrote:"STRATFOR sees a race on, but it isn’t a race between the Chinese and the Americans or even China and the world. It’s a race to see what will smash China first, its own internal imbalances or the U.S. decision to take a more mercantilist approach to international trade."

China: Crunch Time By Peter Zeihan

The global system is undergoing profound change. Three powers — Germany, China and Iran — face challenges forcing them to refashion the way they interact with their regions and the world. We are exploring each of these three states in detail in three geopolitical weeklies, highlighting how STRATFOR’s assessments of these states are evolving. First we examined Germany. We now examine China.

U.S.-Chinese relations have become tenser in recent months, with the United States threatening to impose tariffs unless China agrees to revalue its currency and, ideally, allow it to become convertible like the yen or euro. China now follows Japan and Germany as one of the three major economies after the United States. Unlike the other two, it controls its currency’s value, allowing it to decrease the price of its exports and giving it an advantage not only over other exporters to the United States but also over domestic American manufacturers. The same is true in other regions that receive Chinese exports, such as Europe.

What Washington considered tolerable in a small developing economy is intolerable in one of the top five economies. The demand that Beijing raise the value of the yuan, however, poses dramatic challenges for the Chinese, as the ability to control their currency helps drive their exports. The issue is why China insists on controlling its currency, something embedded in the nature of the Chinese economy. A collision with the United States now seems inevitable. It is therefore important to understand the forces driving China, and it is time for STRATFOR to review its analysis of China.

An Inherently Unstable Economic System

China has had an extraordinary run since 1980. But like Japan and Southeast Asia before it, dramatic growth rates cannot maintain themselves in perpetuity. Japan and non-Chinese East Asia didn’t collapse and disappear, but the crises of the 1990s did change the way the region worked. The driving force behind both the 1990 Japanese Crisis and the 1997 East Asian Crisis was that the countries involved did not maintain free capital markets. Those states managed capital to keep costs artificially low, giving them tremendous advantages over countries where capital was rationally priced. Of course, one cannot maintain irrational capital prices in perpetuity (as the United States is learning after its financial crisis); doing so eventually catches up. And this is what is happening in China now.

STRATFOR thus sees the Chinese economic system as inherently unstable. The primary reason why China’s growth has been so impressive is that throughout the period of economic liberalization that has led to rising incomes, the Chinese government has maintained near-total savings capture of its households and businesses. It funnels these massive deposits via state-run banks to state-linked firms at below-market rates. It’s amazing the growth rate a country can achieve and the number of citizens it can employ with a vast supply of 0 percent, relatively consequence-free loans provided from the savings of nearly a billion workers.

It’s also amazing how unprofitable such a country can be. The Chinese system, like the Japanese system before it, works on bulk, churn, maximum employment and market share. The U.S. system of attempting to maximize return on investment through efficiency and profit stands in contrast. The American result is sufficient economic stability to be able to suffer through recessions and emerge stronger. The Chinese result is social stability that wobbles precipitously when exposed to economic hardship. The Chinese people rebel when work is not available and conditions reach extremes. It must be remembered that of China’s 1.3 billion people, more than 600 million urban citizens live on an average of about $7 a day, while 700 million rural people live on an average of $2 a day, and that is according to Beijing’s own well-scrubbed statistics.

Moreover, the Chinese system breeds a flock of other unintended side effects.

There is, of course, the issue of inefficient capital use: When you have an unlimited number of no-consequence loans, you tend to invest in a lot of no-consequence projects for political reasons or just to speculate. In addition to the overall inefficiency of the Chinese system, another result is a large number of property bubbles. Yes, China is a country with a massive need for housing for its citizens, but even so, local governments and property developers collude to build luxury dwellings instead of anything more affordable in urban areas. This puts China in the odd position of having both a glut and a shortage in housing, as well as an outright glut in commercial real estate, where vacancy rates are notoriously high.

There is also the issue of regional disparity. Most of this lending occurs in a handful of coastal regions, transforming them into global powerhouses, while most of the interior — and thereby most of the population — lives in abject poverty.

There is also the issue of consumption. Chinese statistics have always been dodgy, but according to Beijing’s own figures, China has a tiny consumer base. This base is not much larger than that of France, a country with roughly one twentieth China’s population and just over half its gross domestic product (GDP). China’s economic system is obviously geared toward exports, not expanding consumer credit.

Which brings us to the issue of dependence. Since China cannot absorb its own goods, it must export them to keep afloat. The strategy only works when there is endless demand for the goods it makes. For the most part, this demand comes from the United States. But the recent global recession cut Chinese exports by nearly one fifth, and there were no buyers elsewhere to pick up the slack. Meanwhile, to boost household consumption China provided subsidies to Chinese citizens who had little need for — and in some cases little ability to use — a number of big-ticket products. The Chinese now openly fear that exports will not make a sustainable return to previous levels until 2012. And that is a lot of production — and consumption — to subsidize in the meantime. Most countries have another word for this: waste.

This waste can be broken down into two main categories. First, the government roughly tripled the amount of cash it normally directs the state banks to lend to sustain economic activity during the recession. The new loans added up to roughly a third of GDP in a single year. Remember, with no-consequence loans, profitability or even selling goods is not an issue; one must merely continue employing people. Even if China boasted the best loan-quality programs in history, a dramatic increase in lending of that scale is sure to generate mountains of loans that will go bad. Second, not everyone taking out those loans even intends to invest prudently: Chinese estimates indicate that about one-fourth of this lending surge was used to play China’s stock and property markets.

It is not that the Chinese are foolish; that is hardly the case. Given their history and geographical constraints, we would be hard-pressed to come up with a better plan were we to be selected as Party general secretary for a day. Beijing is well aware of all these problems and more and is attempting to mitigate the damage and repair the system. For example, it is considering legalizing portions of what it calls the shadow-lending sector. Think of this as a sort of community bank or credit union that services small businesses. In the past, China wanted total savings capture and centralization to better direct economic efforts, but Beijing is realizing that these smaller entities are more efficient lenders — and that over time they may actually employ more people without subsidization.
But the bottom line is that this sort of repair work is experimental and at the margins, and it doesn’t address the core damage that the financial model continuously inflicts. The Chinese fear their economic strategy has taken them about as far as they can go. STRATFOR used to think that these sorts of internal weaknesses would eventually doom the Chinese system as it did the Japanese system (upon which it is modeled). Now, we’re not so sure.

Since its economic opening in 1978, China has taken advantage of a remarkably friendly economic and political environment. In the 1980s, Washington didn’t obsess overmuch about China, given its focus on the “Evil Empire.” In the 1990s, it was easy for China to pass inconspicuously in global markets, as China was still a relatively small player. Moreover, with all the commodities from the former Soviet Union hitting the global market, prices for everything from oil to copper neared historic lows. No one seemed to fight against China’s booming demand for commodities or rising exports. The 2000s looked like they would be more turbulent, and early in the administration of George W. Bush the EP-3 incident landed the Chinese in Washington’s crosshairs, but then the Sept. 11 attacks happened and U.S. efforts were redirected toward the Islamic world.

Believe it or not, the above are coincidental developments. In fact, there is a structural factor in the global economy that has protected the Chinese system for the past 30 years that is a core tenet of U.S. foreign policy: Bretton Woods.

Rethinking Bretton Woods

Bretton Woods is one of the most misunderstood landmarks in modern history. Most think of it as the formation of the World Bank and International Monetary Fund, and the beginning of the dominance of the U.S. dollar in the international system. It is that, but it is much, much more.

In the aftermath of World War II, Germany and Japan had been crushed, and nearly all of Western Europe lay destitute. Bretton Woods at its core was an agreement between the United States and the Western allies that the allies would be able to export at near-duty-free rates to the U.S. market in order to boost their economies. In exchange, the Americans would be granted wide latitude in determining the security and foreign policy stances of the rebuilding states. In essence, the Americans took what they saw as a minor economic hit in exchange for being able to rewrite first regional, and in time global, economic and military rules of engagement. For the Europeans, Bretton Woods provided the stability, financing and security backbone Europe used first to recover, and in time to thrive. For the Americans, it provided the ability to preserve much of the World War II alliance network into the next era in order to compete with the Soviet Union.

The strategy proved so successful with the Western allies that it was quickly extended to World War II foes Germany and Japan, and shortly thereafter to Korea, Taiwan, Singapore and others. Militarily and economically, it became the bedrock of the anti-Soviet containment strategy. The United States began with substantial trade surpluses with all of these states, simply because they had no productive capacity due to the devastation of war. After a generation of favorable trade practices, surpluses turned into deficits, but the net benefits were so favorable to the Americans that the policies were continued despite the increasing economic hits. The alliance continued to hold, and one result (of many) was the eventual economic destruction of the Soviet Union.

Applying this little history lesson to the question at hand, Bretton Woods is the ultimate reason why the Chinese have succeeded economically for the last generation. As part of Bretton Woods, the United States opens its markets, eschewing protectionist policies in general and mercantilist policies in particular. Eventually the United States extended this privilege to China to turn the tables on the Soviet Union. All China has to do is produce — it doesn’t matter how — and it will have a market to sell to.

But this may be changing. Under President Barack Obama, the United States is considering fundamental changes to the Bretton Woods arrangements. Ostensibly, this is to update the global financial system and reduce the chances of future financial crises. But out of what we have seen so far, the National Export Initiative (NEI) the White House is promulgating is much more mercantilist. It espouses doubling U.S. exports in five years, specifically by targeting additional sales to large developing states, with China at the top of the list.

STRATFOR finds that goal overoptimistic, and the NEI is maddeningly vague as to how it will achieve this goal. But this sort of rhetoric has not come out of the White House since pre-World War II days. Since then, international economic policy in Washington has served as a tool of political and military policy; it has not been a beast unto itself. In other words, the shift in tone in U.S. trade policy is itself enough to suggest big changes, beginning with the idea that the United States actually will compete with the rest of the world in exports.

If — and we must emphasize if — there will be force behind this policy shift, the Chinese are in serious trouble. As we noted before, the Chinese financial system is largely based on the Japanese model, and Japan is a wonderful case study for how this could go down. In the 1980s, the United States was unhappy with the level of Japanese imports. Washington found it quite easy to force the Japanese both to appreciate their currency and accept more exports. Opening the closed Japanese system to even limited foreign competition gutted Japanese banks’ international positions, starting a chain reaction that culminated in the 1990 collapse. Japan has not really recovered since, and as of 2010, total Japanese GDP is only marginally higher than it was 20 years ago.

China’s Limited Options

China, which unlike Japan is not a U.S. ally, would have an even harder time resisting should Washington pressure Beijing to buy more U.S. goods. Dependence upon a certain foreign market means that market can easily force changes in the exporter’s trade policies. Refusal to cooperate means losing access, shutting the exports down. To be sure, the U.S. export initiative does not explicitly call for creating more trade barriers to Chinese goods. But Washington is already brandishing this tool against China anyway, and it will certainly enter China’s calculations about whether to resist the U.S. export policy. Japan’s economy, in 1990 and now, only depended upon international trade for approximately 15 percent of its GDP. For China, that figure is 36 percent, and that is after suffering the hit to exports from the global recession. China’s only recourse would be to stop purchasing U.S. government debt (Beijing can’t simply dump the debt it already holds without taking a monumental loss, because for every seller there must be a buyer), but even this would be a hollow threat.

First, Chinese currency reserves exist because Beijing does not want to invest its income in China. Underdeveloped capital markets cannot absorb such an investment, and the reserves represent the government’s piggybank. Getting a 2 percent return on a rock-solid asset is good enough in China’s eyes. Second, those bond purchases largely fuel U.S. consumers’ ability to purchase Chinese goods. In the event the United States targets Chinese exports, the last thing China would want is to compound the damage. Third, a cold stop in bond purchases would encourage the U.S. administration — and the American economy overall — to balance its budgets. However painful such a transition may be, it would not be much as far as retaliation measures go: “forcing” a competitor to become economically efficient and financially responsible is not a winning strategy. Granted, interest rates would rise in the United States due to the reduction in available capital — the Chinese internal estimate is by 0.75 percentage points — and that could pinch a great many sectors, but that is nothing compared to the tsunami of pain that the Chinese would be feeling.

For Beijing, few alternatives exist to American consumption should Washington limit export access; the United States has more disposable income than all of China’s other markets combined. To dissuade the Americans, China could dangle the carrot of cooperation on sanctions against Iran before Washington, but the United States may already be moving beyond any use for that. Meanwhile, China would strengthen domestic security to protect against the ramifications of U.S. pressure. Beijing perceives the spat with Google and Obama’s meeting with the Dalai Lama as direct attacks by the United States, and it is already bracing for a rockier relationship. While such measures do not help the Chinese economy, they may be Beijing’s only options for preserving internal stability.

In China, fears of this coming storm are becoming palpable — and by no means limited to concerns over the proposed U.S. export strategy. With the Democratic Party in the United States (historically the more protectionist of the two mainstream U.S. political parties) both in charge and worried about major electoral losses, the Chinese fear that midterm U.S. elections will be all about targeting Chinese trade issues. Specifically, they are waiting for April 15, when the U.S. Treasury Department is expected to rule whether China is a currency manipulator — a ruling Beijing fears could unleash a torrent of protectionist moves by the U.S. Congress. Beijing already is deliberating on the extent to which it should seek to defuse American anger. But the Chinese probably are missing the point. If there has already been a decision in Washington to break with Bretton Woods, no number of token changes will make any difference. Such a shift in the U.S. trade posture will see the Americans going for China’s throat (no matter whether by design or unintentionally).

And the United States can do so with disturbing ease. The Americans don’t need a public works program or a job-training program or an export-boosting program. They don’t even have to make better — much less cheaper — goods. They just need to limit Chinese market access, something that can be done with the flick of a pen and manageable pain on the U.S. side.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by RamaY »

An NYU alumni and hedge fund owner predicted just the above in 2006 in a summar camp on RISK. He bet on India for long term growth.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by wrdos »

Hmm

Was he kind enough to give a definition of the "long term"?
It means 20 years, or 200, or 2000 years from now?

There have been so many China Collapsing predictions back from the 1980s. The most recent one that is kind enough to give a clear time schedule is Mr. Gordon Chang. He predicted that China would collapse 10 years after its entry of WTO (ie, 2001).

He predicted in 1999 that the Chinese auto industry would soon collapse after the foreign cars being allowed to enter China from the year of 2001. The auto industry first, followed by the other heavy industries, and finally the Chinese government, all collapse and

All within 10 years.

Today is Mar. 31, 2010, so we have to wait some more months to see. By the way, nearly 3 million cars, trucks and buses were produced in China through the first 2 months of this year. It is Near twice of the 1999 whole year production when Mr. Chang wrote the book. And also it is twice the auto production in America, where Mr. Chang lives.

After him, the other great prophets are now smart enough to avoid any mention of a certain year. Instead, they all use some good English vocabulary like the "long term", without even a most rough mention of numbers.

Hehe

In long term, the earth will collapse too.
RamaY wrote:An NYU alumni and hedge fund owner predicted just the above in 2006 in a summar camp on RISK. He bet on India for long term growth.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by vina »

Was he kind enough to give a definition of the "long term"?
It means 20 years, or 200, or 2000 years from now?

There have been so many China Collapsing predictions back from the 1980s. The most recent one that is kind enough to give a clear time schedule is Mr. Gordon Chang. He predicted that China would collapse 10 years after its entry of WTO (ie, 2001).

He predicted in 1999 that the Chinese auto industry would soon collapse after the foreign cars being allowed to enter China from the year of 2001. The auto industry first, followed by the other heavy industries, and finally the Chinese government, all collapse and

All within 10 years.

Today is Mar. 31, 2010, so we have to wait some more months to see. By the way, nearly 3 million cars, trucks and buses were produced in China through the first 2 months of this year. It is Near twice of the 1999 whole year production when Mr. Chang wrote the book. And also it is twice the auto production in America, where Mr. Chang lives.

After him, the other great prophets are now smart enough to avoid any mention of a certain year. Instead, they all use some good English vocabulary like the "long term", without even a most rough mention of numbers.

Hehe

In long term, the earth will collapse too.
Yawn.. For someone coached in the deterministic world of "sciences" (as defined by Commies and reducing the world to "dialectical materialism") and used to appellation of "science" to everything (which makes it commie/socialist) like "scientific history" , "scientific inquiry" and "rationalism" over "superstition" it becomes rather difficult to deal with randomness and the uncertainties that are beyond your experience.

May I recommend a book called "Fooled by Randomness" and/or the book "Black Swan" by Nassim Nicholas Taleb ?. It explains the entire thing in a very readable manner. Of course the books achieved "rock star" like fame after the economic collapse (note these books were published far earlier) and also the economist Robert Schiller (google for him) and also Jeffrey Sachs.. Schiller predicted the collapse of the mortgage market and Jeffrey Sachs explained why the S.E Asian economic miracle really wasnt so BEFORE their respective collapses.

In fact, when Schiller was singing like a cassandra in 2007 and 2008, the stock and mortgage markets were at their record highs.. He was questioned on TV and the anchor asked a question just like the one you posed.
The stock market and mortgage indexes went up by X and Y% today and for this year they are up A & B% and the 5 year trend shows that they have gone up by a factor of C and D and yet you predict collapse.. So tell us when and by what date can we see such a collapse ?
To which Schiller responded, that this is in EXPECTATION and a probablilistic answer with the probability of collapse being higher. Of course the TV Anchor (we have to allow for the fact that normal TV anchors have loud mouths , but perfect vacuum in their upper stories and should normally never even ask serious questions that require thoughtfulness to even understand an answer from the likes of Schiller) , couldn't get it.

And Sachs basically took a contrarian view to 25 years of rapid growth in SE Asia and was proven right..

Now a person who is working / or has a PhD in an engineering discipline , such as you, should have greater mental faculties than a TV anchor. So if you go back to your books and read simple stuff like Mean, Mode, Median, Standard Deviation, Variation and Expected Values, and then think through something like design of structures for earthquakes (as an eg since you are civil engg), you can get the drift of what I am saying and answer your question.

Now , talking of earthquakes and since you are in Japan, next time there is an earthquake in Japan, will you be able to guarantee as an engineer that the majority of the structures in your neighborhood will be standing and be fine ? (hint - think of the lines of probability and statistics and expected values and design considerations.) ..
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by SwamyG »

RamaY: An anal-yeast on Bloomberg TV talked about how Panda is better poised to confront Unkil more and more. Unkil is just ever softer with Panda; and Panda is working towards de-linking from Unkil's economy. I wonder who will be the first to say "Go fly a kite".
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by wlin »

China is very serious about de-linking with Uncle. Last November, on CCP’s yearly economic meeting, the whole topic is about de-linking. On February, the political bureau summons all provincial party boss and provincial governor and ministers to Beijing for a two week seminar on this topic. This things never happened before. So they are very very serious about this.

The China-US trade is about 14-15% percent in Q1 trade which down big from years before. So it is happening now.
SwamyG wrote:RamaY: An anal-yeast on Bloomberg TV talked about how Panda is better poised to confront Unkil more and more. Unkil is just ever softer with Panda; and Panda is working towards de-linking from Unkil's economy. I wonder who will be the first to say "Go fly a kite".
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by SwamyG »

On the subject of China vs USA and its impact on the world trade. Asia now trades more with China than with the U.S., complicating currency moves.
While Washington is squabbling with Beijing about China's currency, more and more trade from Asia has delinked itself from the U.S. and tied itself to China.

Asia's trade with China has become more valuable than Asia's trade with the U.S., as this Morgan Stanley chart shows.
Image
The chart shows the combined value of imports and exports to the U.S. and to China from Korea, Indonesia, India, Malaysia, Philippines, Singapore, Taiwan and Thailand.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by paramu »

Why is it so difficult for people to figure this out.

Most of the world exports raw materials and components to China, and China in turn exports finished goods to US. The ultimate customer is uncle land. Naturally other Asian countries will trade more with China than US. It becomes a news when China's trade with other Asian countries is more than with US.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by svinayak »

paramu wrote:Why is it so difficult for people to figure this out.

Most of the world exports raw materials and components to China, and China in turn exports finished goods to US. The ultimate customer is uncle land. Naturally other Asian countries will trade more with China than US. It becomes a news when China's trade with other Asian countries is more than with US.
This is the secret of the US China trade pact and globalization and currency. PRC is used as a pivot for Asian geopolitical strategy and final control over the rest of the world.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by wlin »

During the first two months, the China export to Asia rise 30.4% to 92B USD, the import rise 63.5% to 108B. Total trade to Asia rise 46.4% to 200B.

At the same time, the export to US rise 20% to 35B, the import from US rise 36.9% to 14B. The total trade to US is 49B rise 25%.

The total export is 204B, the total import is 182B, the total trade is 386B. So if you calculate the percentage, the USA is only 12.7% of trade (I thought it was 14-15% in my last post but I was wrong), 17.2% of total export, 7.8% of total import. Asia is 51.9% of total trade, 45.1% of export and 59.4% of total import.

SwamyG wrote:On the subject of China vs USA and its impact on the world trade. Asia now trades more with China than with the U.S., complicating currency moves.
While Washington is squabbling with Beijing about China's currency, more and more trade from Asia has delinked itself from the U.S. and tied itself to China.

Asia's trade with China has become more valuable than Asia's trade with the U.S., as this Morgan Stanley chart shows.
Image
The chart shows the combined value of imports and exports to the U.S. and to China from Korea, Indonesia, India, Malaysia, Philippines, Singapore, Taiwan and Thailand.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by SwamyG »

paramu wrote:Why is it so difficult for people to figure this out.

Most of the world exports raw materials and components to China, and China in turn exports finished goods to US. The ultimate customer is uncle land. Naturally other Asian countries will trade more with China than US. It becomes a news when China's trade with other Asian countries is more than with US.
It is important because when countries trade they impact policies.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by paramu »

SwamyG wrote:It is important because when countries trade they impact policies.
True. And combine that with this point
This is the secret of the US China trade pact and globalization and currency. PRC is used as a pivot for Asian geopolitical strategy and final control over the rest of the world.
Do you see a different picture?
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by svinayak »

paramu wrote:
This is the secret of the US China trade pact and globalization and currency. PRC is used as a pivot for Asian geopolitical strategy and final control over the rest of the world.
Do you see a different picture?
Read the book SUperfusion
http://www.amazon.com/Superfusion-Ameri ... 141658370X

Superfusion: How China and America Became One Economy and Why the World's Prosperity Depends on It
~ Zachary Karabell (Author)


"Our world order is like a stool -- and China and America are its most important legs. If either is destabilized, everyone loses. Through investment, production, and trade, almost every brand name Americans know has a stake in the success of 'Chimerica.' Karabell pre-sents not only an intimate portrait of how the world's most strategic economic marriage came into being -- and how it prevented the present financial crisis from being so much worse -- but also a timely and precise strategy for keeping the global financial order in balance." -- Parag Khanna,
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by SwamyG »

paramu: I did not understand your question (the point you are driving at).
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by paramu »

It is obvious that countries will formulate policies favorably towards the country they trade more with. This is being enabled by uncle to create a favorable situation for China. Who is being left out in the game, in that neighborhood?

As someone said before, all this Google/PRC fight is just a drama.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by SwamyG »

Who is being left out in the game, in that neighborhood?
Ah..... Unkil cannot just ignore the consumer market 1.2b population can provide. Plus, why would the bald eagle want to put all its eggs in just one basket? It makes sense to hedge and play both the elephant and panda. As far as elephant wanting to be not left out, it is up to its leaders to ensure that.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by vina »

China is very serious about de-linking with Uncle
Nope. It is not. It is joined at the hip with a fixed exchange rate peg to the USD.

Ask anyone who knows even a smattering of economics, why even in "prestigious" places like "JNU" (where they know about everything) , or some Economics Academy of "Science" somewhere in China (hint.. the word science will mean that it is "rational" not "superstitious" and hence approved as good by the CPC and the other commies and the global left intelligentia and riff raff like N. Ram) and they will confirm this.
When you have a fixed peg with another currency, YOU EFFECTIVELY DO NOT HAVE A MONETARY POLICY
Much as you like to pretend other wise, China's (and all other countries with a fixed peg to USD like nearly all the Middle Eastern countries and others like Hong Kong) monetary policy is not decided by their respectiven central banks but by the Federal Reserve.
China's money supply is not decided by the Governor of the PBoC but by Ben Bernanke
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by shravan »

From Vikas Bajaj at the NY Times: Coming Visit May Signal Easing by China on Currency
[T]he announcement by Chinese authorities on Thursday that President Hu Jintao will be visiting Washington in two weeks is being seen as the beginning of a possible easing of the friction over the renminbi.

China experts said it was unlikely that China would have agreed to the visit unless there was at least an informal assurance by the Treasury Department that it would not be named a currency manipulator either on or around April 15 — the deadline for the Obama administration to submit one of its twice-a-year reports on foreign exchange to Congress.

At the same time, economists say the visit, and other Chinese moves, suggest China is finally willing to let the renminbi increase in value.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by Neshant »

Even the corrupt court system is useless against these con-artist rating agencies committing fraud running into the trillions.

Probably obama with his head full of propaganda from goldman 'geithner' sachs and ben 'fed independance' bernanke has instructed the judge to block all lawsuits against these rating agencies.

-------

Judge Throws Out Suit Against Moody’s and S.&P

A federal judge in Manhattan threw out a class-action lawsuit accusing the ratings agencies Moody’s Investors Service and Standard & Poor’s of defrauding investors about the safety of $63.4 billion of mortgage debt, Reuters reports.

The plaintiffs said the securities they bought were in fact “not of the ‘best quality,’ or even ‘medium credit quality.’” They said that, after being downgraded to junk status, the securities were worth far less than they paid.

Many underlying loans were made by mortgage lenders that later became distressed or defunct, including three of the largest: Countrywide Financial, the American Home Mortgage Investment Corporation and IndyMac Bancorp.

A spokesman for Moody’s, Michael Adler, and one for S.&P., Frank Briamonte, said their agencies were pleased with the ruling.

http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/ ... hoofinance
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by Hari Seldon »

TAE tweets.
http://twitter.com/AutomaticEarth
AON: 200 largest UK privately sponsored pension schemes showed an increase in deficits from £36bn in Mar 09 to £93bn at the end of Mar 2010

PIMCO has warned that Britain risks a vicious circle of rising debt costs as global investors demand a penalty fee, http://bit.ly/dyXfIn

Steve Keen on Australia's absurd home prices,"We’ve avoided hitting the ground of deleveraging by climbing to a higher cliff."

TAE 3/31: Irish toxic loans of €81bn are half as big as economy, bank bailout reveals.Ireland's taxpayers will hand over €8.5bn to banks.

TAE 3/31: Via Mish, Ontario has a $21Bn deficit vs California's $20Bn. Popn. of Ontario is less than 1/3 of California. Oh Canada!! #fail

Bank Of England Estimates Global Output Losses From Financial Meltdown At Up To $200 Trillion, http://bit.ly/ahSCyi (Hat Tip @ZeroHedge) {Huh?}

TAE 3/30: 260 highly qualified people applied for one job, that of a dog-kennel assistant. $8.55 an hour.

TAE 3/30: Currently there are 474 container ships idle worldwide. Represent 9.3% of shipping capacity. Traffic down 11.8% for 2009 vs 08.
Been a tad busy lately. Hope to be back soon.
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by RamaY »

Why the US must not alienate India - Raymond E Vickery
The relentless force of demographics convinces analysts at Goldman Sachs and elsewhere that India will be the second largest economy by mid-century. By then, India will be the only major world economy continuing to grow rapidly.

Come to think of it, I remember listening to an audio-book by Peter Drucker in 2003-04 where he predicted US economic recession in 2008-09 timeframe using demographics as the correlation variable. IIRC he predicted the next boom to be around 2017 timeframe. I will search for that CD to get the details...
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Re: Perspectives on the global economic meltdown (Jan 26 2010)

Post by SwamyG »

The below chart gives us a perspective of the different recessions in USA - using the Job #s.

Image
Horizontal axis shows months. Vertical axis shows the ratio of that month’s nonfarm payrolls to the nonfarm payrolls at the start of recession. Note: Because employment is a lagging indicator, the dates for these employment trends are not exactly synchronized with National Bureau of Economic Research’s official business cycle dates.
Source: NY Times.

So another 25+ months to reach the pre-recession job market levels?
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