India-Russia: News & Analysis

[Sanku]

Altair-
There is no doubt they are terrorists. I just think what Russia has done to the people of that region is worse.

And no, not the whole BRF community, it is just me saying that. So I will stop with the "= =" stuff.

Why is it worse by what standards? Meanwhile you are wrong about the issues of Chechen problem, here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya

In 1783, Russia and the eastern Georgian kingdom of Kartl-Kakheti (which was devastated by Turkish and Persian invasions) signed the Treaty of Georgievsk, according to which Kartl-Kakheti received protection by Russia. In order to secure communications with Georgia and other regions of the Transcaucasia, the Russian Empire began spreading its influence into the Caucasus mountains. The current resistance to Russian rule has its roots in the late 18th century (1785–1791), a period when Russia expanded into territories formerly under the dominion of Turkey and Persia (see also the Russo-Turkish Wars and Russo-Persian War, 1804-13), under Mansur Ushurma—a Chechen Naqshbandi (Sufi) Sheikh—with wavering support from other North Caucasian tribes. Mansur hoped to establish a Transcaucasus Islamic state under shari'a law, but was unable to do so because of Russian resistance and opposition from many Chechens (many of whom had not been converted to Islam at the time). Its banner was again picked up by the Avar Imam Shamil, who fought against the Russians from 1834 until 1859.

Personally I see too many parallels with Kashmir in the above (of course not all parallels, since unlike Chechnya, Kashmir has always been with Bharat since time known to man kind, but then so had been Pakistan)

More power to the Russians. If others can have their empiral wars, this is nothing in contrast. Absolutely nothing.
------------------

When Chechens lost the war they decided to use terrorism has means to continue fighting, and that is it.

No need to get on a moral high horse here.

[Carl_T]

- Hulagu
To take your analogy, no, and the histories of the regions are not nearly similar. Chechnya has been culturally and ethnically separate from Russia until invasion by Ivan, and they still continued fighting them. Are we a foreign, invasive force in Kashmir? I don't feel so.

I just don't see the parallels with Kashmir that others see that is all. To me it seems like just a case of Imperial agression.

[Philip]

"Islamist Terror International",is the world's first multi-national company whose chief export is terror.We earlier has several groups who acted individually,exporting their diabolic wares.The US's foreign policy,supporting despotic Islamic regimes, whilst hypocritically preaching the virtues of democracy and regime change,saw the birth of Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden,a Saudi angered at the corruption of his state thanks to the rulers cohabiting with the "satanic" US.The "gosel of Al Q" ,the words of this latter-day "prophet",sold exceedingly well in the Arab and Islamic street.Millions became followers of the new faith,which vowed to free the enslaved Muslims from the 21st century's "Crusaders" and their partners in crime ,the Muslim rulers who cohabited with Uncle Sam.

Thus,Chechens,Kashmiris,Afghans,Indonesians,Yemenis,Lebanese,Pakis,Talibs
from all over the Muslim world ,who felt that it was time for action,joined hands along with Al Q in the "franchising" of Islamist terror.They have been attacking US,Israeli,western and Indian targets for a long time now.In Russia,the criminal partners of "ITI",have been hard at work attacking in particular,Russian rail.The use of "black widow" suicide bombers is the feature of this horrific act,of which more are expected.In commiserating with Russia,India must not forget that the only way in which one can deal with such terror is to physically eliminate it,as it wants no discussion on the subject.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ma ... imir-putin

Moscow bombings: Putin vows to destroy group behind attacksThere was no immediate claim of responsibility but the head of the FSB, Alexander Bortnikov, said those responsible had links to the North Caucasus

Russia fears return to wave of terrorism

Witnesses describe horror of double suicide attack on metro

By Roland Oliphant in Moscow

[Deans]

I have used both Metro stations several times. Park Kultury was a few minutes from my apartment.
Both stations are fairly well guarded. The cops are visible and armed and have been for a long time.
They routinely pull out people of `Caucasus appearance' from the crowd, to check their documents.

Lubyanka station is just outside FSB (Old KGB) headquarters and is particularly well guarded.
Park Kultury is close to 2 Army establishments and the early morning trains have several Army officers travelling.
Of the 160 odd stations in the Moscow Metro, I'd say these 2 would be among the 10 most difficult, to pull of an attack.

For suicide bombers to choose these stations and get away with it, indicates a high level of confidence.
That's scary.

[James]

I have used both Metro stations several times. Park Kultury was a few minutes from my apartment.
Both stations are fairly well guarded. The cops are visible and armed and have been for a long time.
They routinely pull out people of `Caucasus appearance' from the crowd, to check their documents.

Lubyanka station is just outside FSB (Old KGB) headquarters and is particularly well guarded.
Park Kultury is close to 2 Army establishments and the early morning trains have several Army officers travelling.
Of the 160 odd stations in the Moscow Metro, I'd say these 2 would be among the 10 most difficult, to pull of an attack.

For suicide bombers to choose these stations and get away with it, indicates a high level of confidence.
That's scary.

The bombers need not necessarily have entered through these two stations. They could have entered through less guarded stations, caught trains, gotten off at these stations and then exploded their bombs.

[Sanku]

I have used both Metro stations several times. .....

Deans, it appears that you are a Russian, if so accept our condolences on behalf of all Muscovites and Russians.

I hope and pray that god gives the strength to those who have lost their loved ones to withstand the pain.

I hope to see Russian vengeance too, may all those responsible for this rot in hell, and may the Russian forces be the one for getting them there.

[Philip]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 081316.ece

Russian security services hunt 21-strong 'Black Widow' cell
Tony Halpin in Moscow

Excerpt:

Russia’s security services believe that the women who blew themselves up in two Moscow Metro stations yesterday were part of a group of up to 30 suicide bombers trained by a Chechen terrorist leader.

Agents from the Federal Security Service (FSB) are investigating the theory that the “Black Widows” were sent to avenge the death of Said Buryatsky, the leading ideologue of the Islamist rebels in Russia’s North Caucasus.

Investigators are now desperately trying to establish whether the attack was a simple response to Buryatsky’s death, or whether it signalled the start of a suicide bombing campaign that he had already prepared before the FSB tracked him down.

We hope that a swift operation finds the dastardly criminals responsible for this heinous outrage.Such crimes demand a public Punishment too.I am happy that the TN govt. have refused an early release for Rajiv's killer-conspirator,Nalini.

[Deans]

I have used both Metro stations several times. .....

Deans, it appears that you are a Russian, if so accept our condolences on behalf of all Muscovites and Russians.

I'm Indian but have lived and travelled extensively in Russia. I do have several Russian friends who use this line and have just checked that all are safe.
I have had some sympathy for the Chechen position in earlier years. However, as the conflict has died down (with a Govt of sorts in Chechnya and the Insurgency more of less crushed), it seems to me that the more extreme Islamist elements are trying to restart terrorism. Unlike Beslan and the theatre seige, this time there were no demands from the terrorists and no one has claimed responsibility. The Russian media is starting to say that `Islamists' have declared a jihad against Russia.

[chetak]

The Russian media is starting to say that `Islamists' have declared a jihad against Russia.

Odd timing.

Maybe a reaction to Putin's Indian visit?

He had said that he wouldn't deal in arms with the pakis.

[svinayak]

Maybe a reaction to Putin's Indian visit?

He had said that he wouldn't deal in arms with the pakis.

Even I thought so.

[Johann]

The jihad there has already morphed several times.

Its gone from a popular Chechen nationalist insurgency, to a Chechen jihadist insurgency, to a regional pan-Islamist terror network based all across the North-Caucasus.

Take for example the death of Said Buryatsky, the jihadist leader whose killing these bombings are rumoured to avenge.

He was born Alexander Tikhomonov, and he was half Buddhist, half Christian convert to Islam from the Siberian Buryat republic.

This real strategic aim, and only real strategic weapon of kind of terrorist movement, (like Al-Qaeda's attacks in the US and Europe) is to push the state in to over-reaction that causes internal and external problems far greater than the attacks themselves. The ripples from the US invasion of Iraq, and the constitutional questions over Presidential war-time powers are still playing out.

Russia has also been grappling with its own set of responses and their costs.

[Carl_T]

I have had some sympathy for the Chechen position in earlier years. However, as the conflict has died down (with a Govt of sorts in Chechnya and the Insurgency more of less crushed), it seems to me that the more extreme Islamist elements are trying to restart terrorism.

The jihad there has already morphed several times.

Its gone from a popular Chechen nationalist insurgency, to a Chechen jihadist insurgency, to a regional pan-Islamist terror network based all across the North-Caucasus.

Take for example the death of Said Buryatsky, the jihadist leader whose killing these bombings are rumoured to avenge.

He was born Alexander Tikhomonov, and he was half Buddhist, half Christian convert to Islam from the Siberian Buryat republic.

This real strategic aim, and only real strategic weapon of kind of terrorist movement, (like Al-Qaeda's attacks in the US and Europe) is to push the state in to over-reaction that causes internal and external problems far greater than the attacks themselves. The ripples from the US invasion of Iraq, and the constitutional questions over Presidential war-time powers are still playing out.

Part of the reason is the Chechen nationalist leaders who weren't extremist Islamists are either dead (due to either other Chechens or Russia) or in exile (I believe there is one in the US!).

Since the current band of terrorists know that at this point, independence or even any "Islamic emirate" is a lost cause, now it looks like they are just looking to make attacks in the heartland.

[Prem]

Take this discussio offline. If it is a personal opinion subject and also for fishing information it can be done offline.

Do u get the feeling that fishing expedition is on as it is not so hard to sense the repeated attempts to insert sympathy for Islamist terorrists or support for the Non Indians out to denigrate all that is Indian in soul and spirit? Indians lost millions of co fellows to islamist forces and still has not woken up , trying to put the bloody blighters in context.

[chetak]

- Hulagu
To take your analogy, no, and the histories of the regions are not nearly similar. Chechnya has been culturally and ethnically separate from Russia until invasion by Ivan, and they still continued fighting them. Are we a foreign, invasive force in Kashmir? I don't feel so.

I just don't see the parallels with Kashmir that others see that is all. To me it seems like just a case of Imperial agression.

Carl_T ji,

Out with it.

What exactly is it that you have been dancing about for the past several posts?

Should we differentiate between good and bad terrorists now?

When the misbegotten chechen TERRORISTS come and kill Indians in India, they come because of their religious beliefs and not because of their culture and / or their ethnicity however benign or honorable you personally think these things may be.

The Russians are our friends, they have stuck with us through thick and thin, unlike the fickle americans for whom everything has a profitable bottom line.

If our friends in their wisdom, have sent some of their more misguided chechen citizens to meet their 72, why should we care?

[Carl_T]

Carl_T ji,

Out with it.

What exactly is it that you have been dancing about for the past several posts?

Should we differentiate between good and bad terrorists now?

When the misbegotten chechen TERRORISTS come and kill Indians in India, they come because of their religious beliefs and not because of their culture and / or their ethnicity however benign or honorable you personally think these things may be.

The Russians are our friends, they have stuck with us through thick and thin, unlike the fickle americans for whom everything has a profitable bottom line.

If our friends in their wisdom, have sent some of their more misguided chechen citizens to meet their 72, why should we care?

Ok, I'll come out with it, I responded to this earlier. My basic point was that I think Chechens' right to a nation as legitimate as Russians or anyone else. As I said I wasn't aware Chechens have attacked us until Munna pointed it out. I thought we were only fighting Pak and LeT etc. I take it back then.

I responded to Hulaku's point because he was saying to draw an analogy to Kashmir. I don't think the situations are comparable at all.

We should stick with the Russians because they have supported us. I was just being idealistic, and yes, I realize there is no room for that in foreign policy.

[ramana]

Now that is clarified can we all move on? No more on this subject.

Thanks, ramana

[Deans]

It would actually be interesting to compare Chechnya with Kashmir. They have important similarities and differences.

In Kashmir having free and fair elections, has helped to a significant extent, to gain the confidence of the people and isolate the terrorists. In Chechnya, whatever autonomy what given by Russia, was misused to the point where Chechnya has for many years, been run by warlord's and resembles `Somalia with Oil'. Add Militant Islam and you have a lethal cocktail. Even that would be tolerable, but for the terrorist attacks and criminal activites spilling over into Russia.

Like Kashmir, the Chechen terrorism/insurgency has long ceased to represent `local youth fighting oppression'. Like Kashmir, there wasn't much of a `jihad' dimension to begin with. For years now, Chechnya has seen foreign participation & `moral support', from more hardline Islamist movements.

The big difference had been that unlike IA in Kashmir, the Russian army had used a very heavy handed approach to deal with the insurgency (which basically involved air power and artillery converting Grozny to Berlin 1945), while the boots on the ground comprised conscripts. What changed, was the use of professional Interior ministry troops and a local militia for COIN - along with a (partial) revamp of the Army.

[svinayak]

In Kashmir having free and fair elections, has helped to a significant extent, to gain the confidence of the people and isolate the terrorists.

The big difference had been that unlike IA in Kashmir, the Russian army had used a very heavy handed approach to deal with the insurgency (which basically involved air power and artillery converting Grozny to Berlin 1945), while the boots on the ground comprised conscripts. What changed, was the use of professional Interior ministry troops and a local militia for COIN - along with a (partial) revamp of the Army.

Kashmir is part of the historical memory and civilization identity of Indians over many millennium. So It is the land of the forefathers for identity. There is no comparison.

[Neshant]

I heard they thinned out the herd of young bucks (young men) in chechnya and deported a good number to siberia or finished them off.

How true is this and what effect has that had.

[hulaku]

It would actually be interesting to compare Chechnya with Kashmir. They have important similarities and differences.

In Kashmir having free and fair elections, has helped to a significant extent, to gain the confidence of the people and isolate the terrorists. In Chechnya, whatever autonomy what given by Russia, was misused to the point where Chechnya has for many years, been run by warlord's and resembles `Somalia with Oil'. Add Militant Islam and you have a lethal cocktail. Even that would be tolerable, but for the terrorist attacks and criminal activites spilling over into Russia.

Like Kashmir, the Chechen terrorism/insurgency has long ceased to represent `local youth fighting oppression'. Like Kashmir, there wasn't much of a `jihad' dimension to begin with. For years now, Chechnya has seen foreign participation & `moral support', from more hardline Islamist movements.

The big difference had been that unlike IA in Kashmir, the Russian army had used a very heavy handed approach to deal with the insurgency (which basically involved air power and artillery converting Grozny to Berlin 1945), while the boots on the ground comprised conscripts. What changed, was the use of professional Interior ministry troops and a local militia for COIN - along with a (partial) revamp of the Army.

Ok leaving aside the historical perspective on both Chechnaya and Kashmir let us it from the time these so called "freedom movements" were started. I would also like to tell everybody that I am an IDP from Kashmir but I still occasionally visit the place.

The point is that insurgency started in the aftermath of the Soviet withdrawl and the Mujahadeen started looking for new holy wars and they saw Chechnaya and Kashmir as the perfect places to launch jihad. Of course in case of Kashmir they were actually fully supported by the Pakistan's Army and ISI.

I dont know how many people know that Shamil Bassayev was trained in Pakistan (surprise surprise). He was the mastermind behind barbarious acts like Beslan and was also the founder of the "Black Widows" who are alleged to have carried out the latest atrocity in Moscow.

In Kashmir it was jihad from the beginning as the first people they target were the Hindus of the valley. The loudspeakers in all the mosques in Srinagar called out the faithful to throw the infidels out of the valley. This I am saying out of personal experience.

Though I am not sure about how it began in Chechnaya but the role of "camel lover" Khattab is well documented in his role as the main Jihadi mentor in Chechnaya. It did not take long for this "freedom struggle" to actually to show what it was, a Jihad by the faithful to throw out the Kuffar.

Russian hadling of the issue is justified. I wish our Army could have been heavy handed but I know the limitations that the Indian Army works under. Plus there is always the political side in a democracy to keep the minorities happy.

In the end I again stress that a terrorist is a terrorist wether in India or Russia and no action of a state justifies the killing of innocent civilians in such dastardly attacks. Those who try and justify just support the terrorists.

[Johann]

Russian hadling of the issue is justified. I wish our Army could have been heavy handed but I know the limitations that the Indian Army works under. Plus there is always the political side in a democracy to keep the minorities happy.

The Russian Army assault on Groznyy in 1994 and 1999 mostly succeeded in killing or driving out the majority of the sizable ethnic Russian population of the city. They ended up losing the city anyway in 1996.

Anyone who thinks the Russian Army defeated the insurgency with artillery, or that the FSB defeated it with assassinations does not know the conflict.

When people like Khattab and other assorted Salafi Jihadis showed up in the late 1990s and hijacked the effectively independent Chechen Republic, they alienated many Chechen clans (calling them kuffar, trying to boss them on their own turf, provoking the Russians to re-invade, etc) and drove straight in to the arms of the Russians, specifically the FSB.

This is the same sort of behaviour from Al Qaeda that alienated Sunni Arab tribes in Iraq, and drove them in to American arms.

Who do you think runs Chechnya today? Not Moscow! Its Kadyrov clan, supported by ample funds from Moscow. These clans fought and kicked out the Russians with jihadi help, and then fought and kicked out the jihadis with Russian help. Their goal is to run the place at the maximum profit with the minimum interference from outsiders

For those interested in parallels in Kashmir there is one - the containment and near defeat of the insurgency owes a great deal to Indian intelligence's ability to recruit insurgents, and turn around and give them license to identify/set up/snatch/interrogate/liquidate other insurgents. There huge local, national and international political benefits from outsourcing (insourcing?) the very dirtiest work to locals who know the social and physical terrain and are not officially part of the state.

Of course the problem in all such cases is the culture of impunity such groups develop since they're untouchable by the law - that becomes the next hurdle in returning 'normalcy'.

[shravan]

Suicide Blasts in Southern Russia Kill 9
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: March 31, 2010

Filed at 2:56 a.m. ET

MAKHACHKALA, Russia (AP) -- Two suicide bombers including one impersonating a police officer killed at least nine people and injured 18 others in the southern Russian province of Dagestan on Wednesday, officials said.

[Carl_T]

If we can still discuss this, I think a comparison would be interesting.

It would actually be interesting to compare Chechnya with Kashmir. They have important similarities and differences.

Like Kashmir, the Chechen terrorism/insurgency has long ceased to represent `local youth fighting oppression'. Like Kashmir, there wasn't much of a `jihad' dimension to begin with. For years now, Chechnya has seen foreign participation & `moral support', from more hardline Islamist movements.

I think hardline Islamism was a "scaling up" of the insurgency, like in Kashmir, especially as many of the Chechen nationalists were killed off by either Russia or the Islamists themselves. In that sense, the insertion and escalation via militant Islam I think is where the similarity ends IMO.

I think the conflicts are different because Kashmir has been a part of our cultural millieu, whereas Chechnya is a product of Imperial Russian conquest.

Ok leaving aside the historical perspective on both Chechnaya and Kashmir let us it from the time these so called "freedom movements" were started. I would also like to tell everybody that I am an IDP from Kashmir but I still occasionally visit the place.

Historical perspectives are very much part of any conflict. People still have memories which is why conflicts continue.

The point is that insurgency started in the aftermath of the Soviet withdrawl and the Mujahadeen started looking for new holy wars and they saw Chechnaya and Kashmir as the perfect places to launch jihad. Of course in case of Kashmir they were actually fully supported by the Pakistan's Army and ISI.

Not quite. Independence movements in Chechnya are not a new or modern occurrence. There have been separatist movements in WWII, in the 1800s, and even well before that.

Before the First Chechen war, individuals involved in the movement were a mixture of Chechen nationalists, Islamists, Mujahideen, and even non-Muslims from other Soviet areas. Basayev was a mujahideen, but Dudayev was a Soviet Maj Gen (who ironically was fighting the Muj earlier), who along with (US resident) Akhmadov grew up in Kazakh where their families were sent in exile.

After the First, when the Russians withdraw, being a state run by guerrillas we see a total breakdown of law and order where all sorts of extreme elements like Khattab happily grow. Probably not dissimilar from Afghanistan. These Islamists were responsible for killings and terrorist attacks on Russians that took place late 90s and early 00s.

[shyam]

It would actually be interesting to compare Chechnya with Kashmir. They have important similarities and differences.

People should stop making such fooling comparisons. Kashmir, land of Rishi Kashyap, home of Shivite traditions, was and is part of Indian civilization. No need to score self goals.

[Deans]

It would actually be interesting to compare Chechnya with Kashmir. They have important similarities and differences.

People should stop making such fooling comparisons. Kashmir, land of Rishi Kashyap, home of Shivite traditions, was and is part of Indian civilization. No need to score self goals.

Shyam, My comparasion was from a COIN perspective only. I'm not questioning Kashmir (and POK) being an integral
part of India.
Johann sums it up nicely. The earlier Russian assaults on Grozny helped create the first lot of `black widows'.

Interestingly, FSB profiles of the newer `black widows', indicate that many did not suffer at the hands of the Russian forces (no revenge motive). They became would be suicide bombers, for ideological reasons/ by being brainwashed.

[Sanku]

Interestingly, FSB profiles of the newer `black widows', indicate that many did not suffer at the hands of the Russian forces (no revenge motive). They became would be suicide bombers, for ideological reasons/ by being brainwashed.

Deans, I am afraid you do not understand.

Since day 1, Kashmir was about Jihad and so was Chehnya, the ethnic stuff is all bull.

But you are right black widows would have actually not existed had Grozny not been bombed, we would have Chechen young mens association or something like that doing the deed. Since the young men are gone there are women doing their work, otherwise they would be at home supporting those actually carrying out the deed.

If Russia completely withdrew from Chechnya they would do it in Georgia. After Georgia fell (with help from US) they would move on the next juicer target. That's how it will be, thats how it has always been.

Hulaku is right, I agree with him.

[Gerard]

Twelve killed by twin bombings in Russia's Dagestan

At least 12 people, including a top local police official, have been killed by two suicide bombings in Russia's North Caucasus republic of Dagestan.

A car bomb was detonated at about 0830 (0430 GMT) outside the offices of the local interior ministry and the FSB security agency in the town of Kizlyar.

Another bomber then blew himself up 20 minutes later as a crowd gathered.

[Klaus]

But you are right black widows would have actually not existed had Grozny not been bombed, we would have Chechen young mens association or something like that doing the deed. Since the young men are gone there are women doing their work, otherwise they would be at home supporting those actually carrying out the deed.

If Russia completely withdrew from Chechnya they would do it in Georgia. After Georgia fell (with help from US) they would move on the next juicer target. That's how it will be, thats how it has always been.

Also worthy of mention is the fact that the Black Widows take their inspiration from a certain WW2 Allied all-female infantry cum artillery division operating against the Wehrmacht in Nazi-occupied Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia. This has been well documented by a certain author in one of his works (where a British envoy from Churchill comes to Germany at the height of the war to talk out a truce between Britain and Germany, to work out a separate peace).

[munna]

Deans, I am afraid you do not understand.

Since day 1, Kashmir was about Jihad and so was Chehnya, the ethnic stuff is all bull

I stress and repeat that. If these are ethnic struggles then they should enjoy full confidence of the minorities in the regions. Chechen and Kashmiri terrorisms are reprehensible and should be condemned without any qualms. These are religion motivated fascist genocides of minorities in respective regions-no sympathies period.

PS: Let us stop this who did what debate. The bottomlines are drawn and our priorities and interests are clear.

[Carl_T]

Before this discussion is closed.

Shyam, My comparasion was from a COIN perspective only. I'm not questioning Kashmir (and POK) being an integral
part of India.
Johann sums it up nicely. The earlier Russian assaults on Grozny helped create the first lot of `black widows'.

Interestingly, FSB profiles of the newer `black widows', indicate that many did not suffer at the hands of the Russian forces (no revenge motive). They became would be suicide bombers, for ideological reasons/ by being brainwashed.

Very true. It is the initial assaults on Grozny responsible for the original black widows.

The new ones have probably been trained in the mountains.

As for the minorities, they are not ethnically Chechen, and would not support separatism. Especially after the tensions that erupted against the ethnic Russians due to the deportation and return to the Caucausus, which Neshant alluded to.

[ramana]

quote="Deans"
It would actually be interesting to compare Chechnya with Kashmir. They have important similarities and differences.

People should stop making such fooling comparisons. Kashmir, land of Rishi Kashyap, home of Shivite traditions, was and is part of Indian civilization. No need to score self goals.

Shyam, My comparasion was from a COIN perspective only. I'm not questioning Kashmir (and POK) being an integral
part of India.
Johann sums it up nicely. The earlier Russian assaults on Grozny helped create the first lot of `black widows'.

Interestingly, FSB profiles of the newer `black widows', indicate that many did not suffer at the hands of the Russian forces (no revenge motive). They became would be suicide bombers, for ideological reasons/ by being brainwashed.[/quote]

No matter, Deans its a self goal to bring in Kashmir. There is no need for that. All the statements can be made without bringing in Kashmir.

[Gerard]

Putin orders Moscow bombers "scraped from sewers"

[Johann]

Chechnya was effectively independent from 1991 until 1999. The Chechen clans had a huge problem with the Salafi jihadis who provoked the second Russian invasion of 1999, as well as attempting to take over.

The Salafi jihadis also destroyed the united Chechen front with their power grab - many Chechen commanders went over to the Russians after Khattab's antics. Without those Chechen defections the Russian army would be either still fighting for Groznyy today if Moscow chose to stick it out.

This is the nature of the Salafi-jihadis; utterly self-destructive. Yet they were very attractive at first to the isolated Chechens because they promised loads of Gulf money and material support.

Lots of people around the world are in wars with other people, or the state. The difference is that if you're Muslim, the Salafi Jihadis are ready and willing to come to your aid, but at a price. They'll try to remake your culture, take over your politics, and take over your war and fight it for their purposes, and kill you if you oppose them. But if you're desperate enough for help you wont think you can afford to say no, not until its too late.

If you think this only happens in non-Muslim countries, think again. It happens in Muslim ones as well - discontented Bedouin in Egypt, Tuareg in Mauritania and Algeria, etc, etc. Any marginalised group that has a beef.

Its just like the Maoists with tribal groups in India, Latin America, South East Asia, etc.

[CRamS]

The NYT hypocrisy is absolutely breath taking. "Brute force" only works when lily white western and Israeli interests are threatned by Islamists.

[ramana]

Chechnya was effectively independent from 1991 until 1999. The Chechen clans had a huge problem with the Salafi jihadis who provoked the second Russian invasion of 1999, as well as attempting to take over.

The Salafi jihadis also destroyed the united Chechen front with their power grab - many Chechen commanders went over to the Russians after Khattab's antics. Without those Chechen defections the Russian army would be either still fighting for Groznyy today if Moscow chose to stick it out.

This is the nature of the Salafi-jihadis; utterly self-destructive. Yet they were very attractive at first to the isolated Chechens because they promised loads of Gulf money and material support.

Lots of people around the world are in wars with other people, or the state. The difference is that if you're Muslim, the Salafi Jihadis are ready and willing to come to your aid, but at a price. They'll try to remake your culture, take over your politics, and take over your war and fight it for their purposes, and kill you if you oppose them. But if you're desperate enough for help you wont think you can afford to say no, not until its too late.

If you think this only happens in non-Muslim countries, think again. It happens in Muslim ones as well - discontented Bedouin in Egypt, Tuareg in Mauritania and Algeria, etc, etc. Any marginalised group that has a beef.

Its just like the Maoists with tribal groups in India, Latin America, South East Asia, etc.

Very good summation of the issue. Also Salafi -jihadists use suicide bombers as a weapon to kill infidels. So they are not suicide prone people per se, who might be psychological cases, but hardened Salafi Jihadists.

[Carl_T]

The Salafi jihadis also destroyed the united Chechen front with their power grab - many Chechen commanders went over to the Russians after Khattab's antics. Without those Chechen defections the Russian army would be either still fighting for Groznyy today if Moscow chose to stick it out.

Was Khattab's faction the one that forced Maskhadov to introduce Sharia? It seems like there was significant tension between the nationalist and Islamist factions, Ilyas Akhmadov echoes what you're saying, he makes it seem like the Arabs came in and screwed everything for the Chechens after the Russian withdrawal.

I heard they thinned out the herd of young bucks (young men) in chechnya and deported a good number to siberia or finished them off.

How true is this and what effect has that had.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_ ... aucasus%29

Not just the men though. As for the effects, well when they return, Soviets do not really rehabilitate.

[Karan Dixit]

Knowledge is supposed to help us but in the case of some people, it is downright harmful. Some of the posts on this thread are making me shake my head in disbelief.

Anyhow, my sympathy to the victims of terror.

(Now it is time to exit the thread till it calms down.)

[Manu]

There was never any doubt, but confirmation nonetheless..

Doku Umarov, Chechen Militant Says He's Behind Moscow Bombings

[Brad Goodman]

During Shri Putin's visit to New Delhi he shared concern over Af-pak but at the same time he praised Paki efforts at counterterrorism.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/fea ... 33874.html

I am wondering if there has been any change in his opinion since the news was put up that the metro bombers could have link to terrorsthan.

[ramana]

The revival of the Chechen bombings in Russia could be Af-Pak related. Russia had been making noises that it would setup an alternate Afghan resolution team with non NATO powers. The bombings could be a signal to mind their own backyard before venturing to solve other problems.