Armoured Vehicles in Nuclear Backdrop

[Rahul M]

Since this thread has been changed, I think I ask a fair question when I say, what is the use of armoured forces for India the present and near future

forget the armoured forces, what is the use of "World Class Drone aircraft, mechanizing a larger percentage of our armed forces, paying our soldiers better, ensuring that the IAF has more than the necessary number of squadrons of modern aircraft, more ships to patrol the Indian Ocean"

I'm yet to get a reply.

I am assuming when random epithets are tossed around they refer to all people in a State and not a small category of non-State actors who may or may not be receiving the aid and comfort of some elements of the Government.........

wow !

[Rahul M]

marten, don't make such long posts........... they might nuke us. HOW CAN YOU IGNORE THE FACT THAT PAKISTAN HAS NEWCLEAR BOMBS ? when SDRE us has to make do with all-clear onlee !

[Rahul M]

on a more serious note, it would be interesting to note from history the force structure of a military facing a much more potent nuclear arsenal in the hands of an even more belligerent enemy, one with a declared FU doctrine and the only country till date to have actually used it in combat.

yes, the soviet army, facing arguably the largest nuclear arsenal fielded against one nation (all other 4 of the P5 against it) didn't abolish the tank forces thinking 'it was yesterday's war'. on the contrary they fielded anywhere between 50000 and 60000 tanks and probably twice that number of APC's and ICV's.

[Singha]

on a funny note - sher khan had this nukular RPG of sorts to be used for short-range nukular warfare down to distance of 300m

I present the redoubtable "davy crockett" kinda looks like a giant enema syringe (ouch!)
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... t_got_away

[a_kumar]

Shouting was the only way to register shock at some people saying we should just ignore nukes when talking about heavy armour.

Its a shortcut to lot of things, registering shock is not one of them.

As to what to do with the billions saved, how about getting more Nuclear Powered Subs, developing more SLBMs, more ICBMs to counter China, World Class Drone aircraft, mechanizing a larger percentage of our armed forces, paying our soldiers better, ensuring that the IAF has more than the necessary number of squadrons of modern aircraft, more ships to patrol the Indian Ocean, better aircraft and support for our anti-terror forces.... but this is just off the top of my head. I mean, all of these we can actually put to some use (or at least use as a strong nuclear deterrent) as opposed to keeping them lying around in the hope that somehow nukes will go away and we can fight 1971 war.

Don't deliberately misquote me. I have outlined a wide range of defence needs that could do with immediate attention and not just nukes. Please read carefully before attempting to counter what I have said.

Since this thread has been changed, I think I ask a fair question when I say, what is the use of armoured forces for India the present and near future

Since everybody is obviously missing something that is very clear to you. Why don't you explain how "range of defense needs" mentioned in your post above are ok in nuclear overhang. Maybe that will show everybody why armored troops are obviously a waste. Specifics and no rhetoric!

[putnanja]

The newklear bomb is a red herring.

If IAF sends Pakistan's hawa jaaz to jannat, pakis will use nuclear bomb
If we use Arjuns to send al-bin-khalidis to jannat, pakis will use nuclear bomb
If we bomb karachi and enforce naval blockade of pakistan, pakis will use nuclear bomb


My solution: we can't do anything as pakis will use nuclear bomb. We will only use INSAS rifles to pester pakis, and disband the armoured, artillery, AAC regiments, and pack up IAF and IN.

Now, no nuclear red lines will be crossed

[Rahul M]

boss you got it all wrong, it's got nothing to do about being a naya abdul or a purana maulvi.
it doesn't matter who does it, even if a very senior member makes ridiculous comments with no valid arguments he will be called out on that. If I do it, I will expect the same from BR.

you can present any damn POV you want as long as you are ready to make cogent arguments and facts to back it up. unless you do so it is NOT creativity or any of that jazz, it's simply fantasizing and only serves to increase the noise to signal ratio. there are many places on the net to indulge in that kind of fantasizing, BR is not one of those.

Bottom-line, creativity needs freedom to express ideas and thoughts. Killing freedom of thoughts and expressions is poisonous to creativity.

nobody is doing any of those things you allege.
where does one draw the line between a novel creative idea and a half-baked figment of imagination with no connection to the real world ?

it may well be possible that alok is right, but as of now his arguments make no sense. if he is indeed correct I hope he will find better reasons in the future to convince people.
right now, his arguments won't convince even himself, logically speaking.

[Rahul M]

What arguments, Rahul?

my bad !

[shyams]

I know this post of mine will probably trigger fellow SDREs to use ridicule onlee, but I had to say it. Personally, I don't mind the new eggs coming into this forum as self proclaimed jarnails and claiming they see something so obvious that others cannot see. Well, most of the times they are wrong, but they bring a different perspective. Though they fail miserably to prove their point, but they do end up forcing the obvious to try visualizing a different perspective. For any substantial achievement, visualizing the same things with different POV is a gift. If the seniors ridicule these new eggs, the nanha abduls will hesitate to put forth any new-radical thoughts. We will end with the same old sterotype of "We know everything".

In my team, there used to be a guy. He always used to come up with something totally ridiculous and unprecedented and really unconventional solutions to problems which have so obvious solutions. A fresh grad. from a premium MBA school. He was ridiculed from top to bottom. In days to come, he just became a laughing stock. He got so frustrated that he left the company and thought of doing something of his own. Today, he has a flourishing startup with a blooming business. At the age of 27, he is already an owner of 20 Million USD. Moreover, he is a guy who never went out of Desh. He took a personal grudge when the idea he proposed to our VP took a beating unanimously. The same idea has brought him where he is today.

Bottom-line, creativity needs freedom to express ideas and thoughts. Killing freedom of thoughts and expressions is poisonous to creativity. So no matter what, my full support to Alok P and my personal request, do not get discouraged by resistance to your ideas.

well said. But all we ask from alok is for reasoning, to back up his claims. While his ideas are new, I dont see any answer to some valid questions from Marten and Rahul, among others. If he can answer them, I can totally see this thread being very very interesting and he will also without any doubt win the respect of the old timers here. While shouting and regurgitating the same things over and over would only make him look immature.

And who knows, if alok applies himself hard to find reasons due to the 'poking' from BRifites here, we might even turn him into a brilliant military strategist who will take us to victory

[Pat]

I know this post of mine will probably trigger fellow SDREs to use ridicule onlee, but I had to say it. Personally, I don't mind the new eggs coming into this forum as self proclaimed jarnails and claiming they see something so obvious that others cannot see. Well, most of the times they are wrong, but they bring a different perspective. Though they fail miserably to prove their point, but they do end up forcing the obvious to try visualizing a different perspective. For any substantial achievement, visualizing the same things with different POV is a gift. If the seniors ridicule these new eggs, the nanha abduls will hesitate to put forth any new-radical thoughts. We will end with the same old sterotype of "We know everything".

In my team, there used to be a guy. He always used to come up with something totally ridiculous and unprecedented and really unconventional solutions to problems which have so obvious solutions. A fresh grad. from a premium MBA school. He was ridiculed from top to bottom. In days to come, he just became a laughing stock. He got so frustrated that he left the company and thought of doing something of his own. Today, he has a flourishing startup with a blooming business. At the age of 27, he is already an owner of 20 Million USD. Moreover, he is a guy who never went out of Desh. He took a personal grudge when the idea he proposed to our VP took a beating unanimously. The same idea has brought him where he is today.

Bottom-line, creativity needs freedom to express ideas and thoughts. Killing freedom of thoughts and expressions is poisonous to creativity. So no matter what, my full support to Alok P and my personal request, do not get discouraged by resistance to your ideas.

WE will make you prediction true: "I know this post of mine will probably trigger fellow SDREs to use ridicule onlee"

Here is my perspective:
Once there was a genius boy who was inspired by the nationalistic values. The only thing he knew was original thoughts and book reading. He got so engrosses in his own ideas that he could not differentiate theory from reality. Later the guy bum licked a great soul and got a high position in a national party and went on to become PM of country.

Following on his theoretical bullshit he screwed the nation and gave away large tracts of land to a large neighboring nation and create an international dispute in a large state that could have been handled internally.
Some of this mess was to do with the fear of unknown and proactive of not committing.

and the story goes on..

Moral of the story: Have a good argument and have some vision before running shit scared of everyone in the world.. Creativity is welcome till the time you know what you are talking about. There is nothing creative in being afraid of nukes. Everyone in India knows and is aware of it (the thought is unoriginal).
BTW: India is the only country where people talk about no war is possible concept when we have been involved in 4-5 wars in 60 years and are surrounded by hostile neighbors

[Pat]

WE will make you prediction true: "I know this post of mine will probably trigger fellow SDREs to use ridicule onlee"

Here is my perspective:
Once there was a genius boy who was inspired by the nationalistic values. The only thing he knew was original thoughts and book reading. He got so engrosses in his own ideas that he could not differentiate theory from reality. Later the guy bum licked a great soul and got a high position in a national party and went on to become PM of country.

Following on his theoretical bullshit he screwed the nation and gave away large tracts of land to a large neighboring nation and create an international dispute in a large state that could have been handled internally.
Some of this mess was to do with the fear of unknown and proactive of not committing.

and the story goes on..

Moral of the story: Have a good argument and have some vision before running shit scared of everyone in the world.. Creativity is welcome till the time you know what you are talking about. There is nothing creative in being afraid of nukes. Everyone in India knows and is aware of it (the thought is unoriginal).
BTW: India is the only country where people talk about no war is possible concept when we have been involved in 4-5 wars in 60 years and are surrounded by hostile neighbors

Do you actually know what you are talking or just posting for the heck of it. Whatever you said about "Welcome till the time you know what you are talking about", do you actually know what you are talking about? Does your post makes any sense at all or just without giving a thought you are trying to counter me?

When did my post say that we should be afraid of Nukes? I think you failed to understand what I am trying to say: have patience to hear, before jumping. This is what exactly people do when they don't have anything substantial to add to the discussion, they will engage in calling cheap shots. So, no posts from you to help with this discussion, but calling cheap shots, you are first in line. Great going !!!

Great, we have one more guy here whom claims to be a close liaison of Gandhi Family and knows Pt. Nehru personally

Hope you got the message and even though it may be difficult for you to accept. "Do you actually know what you are talking or just posting for the heck of it".

[Pat]

Hope you got the message and even though it may be difficult for you to accept. "Do you actually know what you are talking or just posting for the heck of it".

Whether I got the message or not, you wud had come to know if you had the patience to read the previous posts. My messages are well connected with all my posts. I don't just jump into the middle of discussions to call cheap shots against people. If you have anything substantial, contribute to the thread, calling cheap shots on fellow SDRE's won't help. And lets stop the whining, you are free to contribute to the thread !!!

Awesome way to end the post, keep it up: "And lets stop the whining"