Artillery Discussion Thread

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Apr 2010 21:56

true, but typically range also matters even in mountains for the safety and deployment flexibility and ease of the user. mortar tube may not be much but think of 1000s of rounds of ammo needed to be pushed further up to frontline.

155mm gun can in a crisis be also be used in direct fire role.

negi · Post by **negi** » 05 Apr 2010 22:00

Yes that is why Jingos are getting M777A2 .

-- I guess using '^' is confusing at times

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 06 Apr 2010 00:09

rohitvats wrote:[
Do you care to check facts before posting your opinions on the forum? did you bother to check that PzH 2000 is a tracked SPH and does not have wheeled version? And nor are there any plans for the same?

Rohit,

I think there are plans for a wheeled version, a model was shown in the DEF EXPO 2010 at Dilli

K

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Apr 2010 00:20

Kersi D wrote:
rohitvats wrote:[
Do you care to check facts before posting your opinions on the forum? did you bother to check that PzH 2000 is a tracked SPH and does not have wheeled version? And nor are there any plans for the same?
Rohit,

I think there are plans for a wheeled version, a model was shown in the DEF EXPO 2010 at Dilli

K

K, are you sure it was the PZH 2000 wheeled version and not the Artillery Gun Module - which is derived from PZH 2000 turret and can be fiited to 6X6 or 8X8 wheeled vehicles or even lighter tracked chasis?

Please see the details here: http://www.army-technology.com/projects/artillery/

excerpt:

Krauss-Maffei Wegmann's Artillery Gun Module (AGM) is an air-transportable, medium-weight, turreted self-propelled howitzer based on the proven technology of the PzH 2000 SP howitzer in service with the German Army. The system is fully autonomous and provides the same performance as the PzH 2000, but with reduced cost, crew levels and weight

The gun module can be fitted on a tracked or wheeled chassis. The intention is to integrate the gun module into available in-service chassis for the customer country and to set up co-production arrangements with the local in-country chassis producer to provide a cost effective and medium weight indirect fire support platform.

The first demonstrator was completed in 2004. The verification phase was finished in early 2007.

The artillery gun module development has been based on the 155mm / L52-calibre gun but the system could also be adapted for a lighter gun such as a 105mm gun or 39-calibre 155mm gun.

The module can be fitted on a heavy 6x6 or 8x8 chassis, a tracked Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) hull or a main battle tank hull. It is necessary to fit hydraulically operated stabilisers and firing spades to wheeled platforms for the vehicle to withstand the recoil. The AGM installed on an MLRS chassis has a combat weight of 27t. Mounted on a 6x6 truck the combat weight is about 22.5t compared to the PzH 2000 combat weight of about 55t.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 06 Apr 2010 00:48

rohitvats wrote: Do you care to check facts before posting your opinions on the forum? did you bother to check that PzH 2000 is a tracked SPH and does not have wheeled version? And nor are there any plans for the same?

Rohit,

I think there are plans for a wheeled version, a model was shown in the DEF EXPO 2010 at Dilli

K

K, are you sure it was the PZH 2000 wheeled version and not the Artillery Gun Module - which is derived from PZH 2000 turret and can be fiited to 6X6 or 8X8 wheeled vehicles or even lighter tracked chasis?

Hey Rohit don't tax my brain at 1:00 am !!!!

As far as I recollect it was the "exact" turret of the PzH 2000 on a wheeled carrier.

One of the advantages was that the wheeled version weighed a few MTs less that the original tracked verison.

K

negi · Post by **negi** » 06 Apr 2010 01:02

From DEXEXPO thread.

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 06 Apr 2010 01:28

exactly with the gun turret being modular it can be fitted on a wheeled version if needed and its probably ready for tests in India if indeed Rhienmittal is sending a gun for testing. so yeah i'll be glad to seen the PZH2000 wheeled baby, nice firepower and good quality as well.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Apr 2010 09:46

negi wrote:<SNIP>From DEXEXPO thread.

negi, thanx for the pix.

Brahmananda - I retract my statement on the lack of wheeled SPH for PZH 2000. But I do hope that the model in the picture has been trialled and tested and is not just a scale model. BTW, the AGM is not exactly the same turret as of PZH 2000 - it comes with many modifications.

An old report I read says that IA requires 22 Regiments of tracked SPH.

IA may have interesting choices at hand -(a) opt for FH 77B05 towed howitzer and FH 77BW Archer - the wheeled SPH and PZH 2000 for tracked SPH (b) PZH 2000 tracked and wheeled SPH and FH 77B05 towed SPH.

Any of the above two combination will lead to lot of commonality and deep holes in the PA...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Apr 2010 10:05

is this wheeled pzh-lite a JV between krauss-maffei and general dynamics land systems (of abrams/bradley fame) ? recall seeing an article somewhere....I think it was a even smaller truck mounted thing without a turret ... more in archer league.

sawant · Post by **sawant** » 06 Apr 2010 10:10

what happened to Bhim... thought it wud b a nice cheap self propelled howie ... we can surely hav them in sme numbers...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Apr 2010 10:11

bhim is out because we shot ourself in foot by blacklisting denel for the sake of political vendetta.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 06 Apr 2010 10:18

rohitvats wrote:
negi wrote: IA may have interesting choices at hand -(a) opt for FH 77B05 towed howitzer and FH 77BW Archer - the wheeled SPH and PZH 2000 for tracked SPH (b) PZH 2000 tracked and wheeled SPH and FH 77B05 towed SPH.

Okay, noob question here. The DRDO integrated the Denel 155mm onto the Arjun chassis resulting in the Bhim. That plan came a cropper when Denel was blacklisted. What prevents the DRDO from integrating the winner of the IA's artillery trials onto the Arjun chassis? Is it the extended time-frame that's a problem? Or is the reason technical in nature?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Apr 2010 10:21

Singha wrote:is this wheeled pzh-lite a JV between krauss-maffei and general dynamics land systems (of abrams/bradley fame) ? recall seeing an article somewhere....I think it was a even smaller truck mounted thing without a turret ... more in archer league.

What you are referring to is the PZH 2000 derived turret called the AGM - Artillery Gun Module. It was mounted on the chassis of MLRS.

Check the URL I posted couple of posts above - http://www.army-technology.com/projects/artillery/

quote:

The module can be fitted on a heavy 6x6 or 8x8 chassis, a tracked Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) hull or a main battle tank hull. It is necessary to fit hydraulically operated stabilisers and firing spades to wheeled platforms for the vehicle to withstand the recoil. The AGM installed on an MLRS chassis has a combat weight of 27t. Mounted on a 6x6 truck the combat weight is about 22.5t compared to the PzH 2000 combat weight of about 55t.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Apr 2010 10:43

Viv S wrote:
Okay, noob question here. The DRDO integrated the Denel 155mm onto the Arjun chassis resulting in the Bhim. That plan came a cropper when Denel was blacklisted. What prevents the DRDO from integrating the winner of the IA's artillery trials onto the Arjun chassis? Is it the extended time-frame that's a problem? Or is the reason technical in nature?

Viv S, I think the reasons are technical, even though the reports don't elaborate on what those were - they just say that Turret T6 was found to be best fit.

You see, IA had short-listed four systems for simulataneous trials as integrated systems and in the hybrid segment - AS 90/ZUZANA/GCT turret-GIAT/T6-Denel. All of these were mated to T-72 chasis and iirc, the chasis was not able to support any of these. In between, Russian MSTA 2S19 was also trialled - but the 152mm caliber was not to the liking of IA.

After these trial on T-72, IA went for the hybrid trials on Arjun along with simultaneous trials of integrated systems. Only ZUZANA/AS 90/Denel T-6 were to proceed with the integrated trials. GCT was most probably found to deficient after trials on T-72 chasis - I do not know the reason. Of these, only AS 90 and T-6 were to proceed with hybrid trials on Arjun and reinforced T-72 chasis. For some reasons, AS 90 was not fielded by the company for hybrid trials on Arjun, that left only the T-6 turret. There were intial problems which were ironed out and the hybrid system recommended for induction by 1999.

Another important point - old reports (Parliamentary Standing Committee on Defence) very clearly show that IA wants the same turret on Tracked and Wheeled SPH. Guess, that increases the chances for PZH 2000. As for the towed gun, we have the IA's favorite - FH77B05

Hope this helps.

bhayana · Post by **bhayana** » 06 Apr 2010 11:14

I HAVE BEEN GOING THROUGH THE DISSCUSSION ON THE FORUM REGARDING THE PHZ WHEELED, TRACKED AND THE OUTCOME IN CASE OF A TRIAL WITH THE ZUZUAN. Some of our friends have declared the wheeled phz winner aganist the zuzuan because it can carry more rounds as compared to the zuzan i would like to point out the following things
1 The existence of the wheeled phz is questionable at this point of time. even if they have displayed a model of it at the def expo.

2. If the wheeled phz is fielded by the germans it would be subjected to trial in the northen and the eastern sector where it has to move around hair pin bends as the road infrastructure in india is not suited for such traffic. The shear weight of the phz both versions is so much that it would not be a wise decission to field the system.

3.Now for the core western sector , the guns are made to fire countineously for a certain stipulated time or they are given a "X" no. of rounds and are made to fire as soon as possible. My reservation on the round capacity of the phz being the winning edge over the zuzuan is the cook of temp. of the barrel which means that after a steady rate of fire the barrel tem. reaches to a extent that firing has to be stopped till the barrel is cooled down. which would be appox the same for both the guns i.e. the both would have to start cooling down the tube at nearly the same time or after nearly the same no. of rounds fired. It is this factor that the round carring cap. of the phz is immaterial as both the guns would stop firing once the cook of temp. is achieved even though one of the gun system has N no. ofammo. caring cap.

bhayana · Post by **bhayana** » 06 Apr 2010 11:20

As for the ideal 155 system the user and the GOI would like to have a maximum commonality factor, for which the following combinations can be looked at.

1. Towed system FH 77B as the system can be fielded in any sector because is towable and air transportable.
2. Wheeled SP Archer the lightest of all wheeled sp systems rapid deployment on its own owing to the fact that it is on a truck chasis, high rate of fire, IA tried gun tech,fully automated.
3. Tracked SP Phz. for the core western front.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Apr 2010 11:48

imho its better getting 5 archer for the cost 2 pzh-wheeled because turreted systems cost a lot more. fast moving "shock army" IBG could go with pzh-wheeled
in lieu of pzh-tracked.

imo its better go wheeled than tracked except if one is planning to invade bangladesh

the large soft tyres of the modern 8x8 types should be
able to manage a sand dune or two and wont need the wear and tear repair of tank tracks so frequently.

we dont want to grind to a halt 2km from civil lines in RYK town because oops lufthansa cargo 747 carrying diehl tfta tracks got delayed by a snow storm in munich...fit the desi MRF/JK/Apollo tyres and ride to victory.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Apr 2010 12:05

While we're at it, read some historic US document which says this about the Soviet Artillery:

They fire 270,000 rounds in forty-five minutes in a brigade sector

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 06 Apr 2010 20:14

rohitvats wrote:
negi wrote:<SNIP>From DEXEXPO thread.
negi, thanx for the pix.

Brahmananda - I retract my statement on the lack of wheeled SPH for PZH 2000. But I do hope that the model in the picture has been trialled and tested and is not just a scale model. BTW, the AGM is not exactly the same turret as of PZH 2000 - it comes with many modifications.

No I don't think that the wheeled version has had a trial by fire, by German standards. It is on paper or a model !!!

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 06 Apr 2010 21:55

i hope they have a prototype ready for trial by fire in india, Archer would be awesome too, but is it being tested? i know the bofors gun is being tested but didnt hear about Archer coming for trials.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 07 Apr 2010 12:40

Kersi D wrote:
No I don't think that the wheeled version has had a trial by fire, by German standards. It is on paper or a model !!!

KD,

It think that the chassis being a G 6 chassis should be able to hold the AGM turret.

www.army-technology.com/projects/g6/

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 09 Apr 2010 23:39

Indian Army is scouting for Smart Artillery shells. so we can make way for the Excalibur smart munition.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/04/in ... hells.html

can be fired from the m-777, Archer and new Borfors gun.

David Siegel · Post by **David Siegel** » 19 Apr 2010 08:00

Singapore gun arrives today; stage set for artillery trials
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=12745

Some of the Highlights:

The stop-start-stop process of buying 1,580 towed guns for the Indian Army will effectively restart on Monday when a C-130 Hercules aircraft lands in New Delhi, carrying a 155-millimetre artillery gun for trials this summer.

....

Last year, one of the two contenders, STK, was unofficially blacklisted for corruption after the arrest of former Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) chief Sudipta Ghosh. But CBI investigations have made no apparent headway in the past year; not even a charge-sheet has been filed against Sudipta Ghosh. Now, STK has been asked to field its gun for trials.
[Smelling Rat ??]

....

STK plans to start preparing for the impending trials by practising firing at the Pokhran ranges using Indian ammunition and a crack gun crew of seven former Indian Army artillerymen, recruited by STK’s Indian partner, Punj Lloyd Ltd.

....

STK’s rival in this tender, BAE Systems, has a similar arrangement with its Indian partner, Mahindra & Mahindra. These two companies have formed an Indian joint venture, Defence Land Systems, with Rs 100 crore equity held on a 74-26 per cent basis between Mahindra & Mahindra and BAE Systems.

....

STK and BAE Systems are also vying for a $700-million (over Rs 3,100 crore) contract for 140 ultralight howitzers (ULHs) for Indian mountain divisions. [ I thought this chapter was closed as we took the direct military sales route from US]

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 19 Apr 2010 08:39

Singapore seperated from Malaysia in 1965 and became a new nation. To train their military and to arm them they first approached India. India too had a small arms industry and due to British heritage which is similar to what the Singaporeans inherited, they wanted Indian expertise in training their soldiers and Indian technicians to help setting up small arms fabricating workshops. Unfoftunately, India turned down the singaporean request. They then asked the Egyptians to help them. The Egyptians, thanks to expatriate German assistance were operating an embrionic small arms production outfit which Singaporeans wanted to learn and adopt once they request for help from India was turned down. Unfortunately, once again the Singaporeans were turned down because the Egyptians were too busy preparing for war against Israel.

It was then that the Singaporeans approached Israel to help in training their military, arm them and also to help in setting up small arms industry. The Singaporeans have not looked back.

So now we have a tiny nation that once sought Indian help to set up their small arms industry embarking on a mission to produce and supply heavy artillery to the very nation they sought help some 45 years ago. So what happened to Indian arms industry in the meantime?

I don't want to make judgement but I believe the heavy reliance on license manufacturing of foreign systems had stiffled inovation and important R&D that could have taken the arms industry into a different trajectory.
Avram

sum · Post by **sum** » 19 Apr 2010 08:40

Well, let another round of chai-biskoot + few gun firing excercises begin for the 1000000th time..

Lets see at which stage does this round of trials get canceled and re-tendered. Truely a farce if there was one.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Apr 2010 09:39

indeed avram - our record of manufacturing and developing new products in the 'easier' categories is very bad. we can put a satellite around the moon but not come up with a new 40mm cannon.

even if development work is done - the manufacturing is slow and bad by PSUs.

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 19 Apr 2010 09:44

Forget cannon.... we are yet to see an indigenous carbine (MSMC) in production...and we have Singapore selling bull-pup design to India.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Apr 2010 10:56

if tata and mahindra are given a free run for 10 yrs with assured orders and freedom
to tie up with whoever is needed, we can match singapore. we have the people but not
the process and legislative framework. and pvt manufacturing will do a honest job as
their jobs and bonuses depend on it, unlike the 'time bound' and 'roster' system in GOI orgs.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Apr 2010 00:16

Not really. The problem is if there is potential for import availability, the local design will be stifled. there is no scope for satellite launch vehicle import hence it gets developed. If a major snafu like the cryoengine working for 1 sec will kill the program if it were owned by the forces.

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 21 Apr 2010 00:27

Singha wrote:if tata and mahindra are given a free run for 10 yrs with assured orders and freedom
to tie up with whoever is needed, we can match singapore. we have the people but not
the process and legislative framework. and pvt manufacturing will do a honest job as
their jobs and bonuses depend on it, unlike the 'time bound' and 'roster' system in GOI orgs.

Even if the PSU's / DRDO is given a free run for 10 yrs with freedom to pay competitive wages to Scientists/Engineers they too can do an Honest Job. But everything end with a BIG IF?

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 21 Apr 2010 00:47

asprinzl wrote:Singapore seperated from Malaysia in 1965 and became a new nation. To train their military and to arm them they first approached India. India too had a small arms industry and due to British heritage which is similar to what the Singaporeans inherited, they wanted Indian expertise in training their soldiers and Indian technicians to help setting up small arms fabricating workshops. Unfoftunately, India turned down the singaporean request. Avram

And your source for this is....?

David Siegel · Post by **David Siegel** » 21 Apr 2010 11:15

Chinese copy of BM-30 Smerch (A-100 )MLRS spotted in Pakistan’s recently held exercise
http://idrw.org/?p=1370

So this was one of the core area (MBRLs) where IA enjoyed a lead over PA after the import of Smerch and that long leg advantage is getting eroded by these Chinese make. I guess actually the Chinese copy is more of an improvement over Smerch in terms of range. So PA is better positioned right now.

IA planned to use MBRL in a major way to plug in the loop holes in the Artillery strength which is dogged by delay in import due to multiple setbacks in trial and scams. So PA is finally catching up IA in this area as well and they already had an upper hand in the Artillery side. Bad news

The only interesting point I could see here was the Pinaka-II with a 80+ KM range. Not sure if it is a kind of reverse engg'ed project or an actual improvent over Pinaka, keeping the basic design intact for the launchers. Absolutely no media attention till now on this.

Brahmananda · Post by **Brahmananda** » 21 Apr 2010 11:28

IMO they should work on Pianaka-1 and 2 with GPS guided rockets, Pinaka-2 must have a range of over 120km.

Ashutosh Malik · Post by **Ashutosh Malik** » 21 Apr 2010 11:44

khukri wrote:
asprinzl wrote:Singapore seperated from Malaysia in 1965 and became a new nation. To train their military and to arm them they first approached India. India too had a small arms industry and due to British heritage which is similar to what the Singaporeans inherited, they wanted Indian expertise in training their soldiers and Indian technicians to help setting up small arms fabricating workshops. Unfoftunately, India turned down the singaporean request. Avram
And your source for this is....?

Hi Khukri,

One source could be the following book:

"Looking East to Look West"
Author: Sunanda K. Datta-Ray
Publisher: Penguin/ Viking
ISBN: 9780670082384

Among other stuff in the book, which primarily focuses on India-Singapore relationship and its various facets, particularly from Singapore's perspective and thoughts, you could check out page 104 where a letter written on August 9, 1965, by Mr. Lee Kuan Yew, then PM of Singapore to Mr. Lal Bahadur Shastri, then PM of India, is documented.

Best regards.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Apr 2010 21:20

Someone was asking about DU rounds and the armor penetration mechanism.

http://www.sv.vt.edu/research/batra-stevens/pent.html

As usual there is Indic brain behind the analysis!

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 21 Apr 2010 21:42

ramana wrote:Someone was asking about DU rounds and the armor penetration mechanism.

http://www.sv.vt.edu/research/batra-stevens/pent.html

As usual there is Indic brain behind the analysis!

I'm not sure whom you're referring to but I did enquire a while back whether the IA had any DU rounds in service, seeing as for the same weight and design they have better penetration characteristics than WHA rounds.

Henrik · Post by **Henrik** » 21 Apr 2010 21:58

Brahmananda wrote:i hope they have a prototype ready for trial by fire in india, Archer would be awesome too, but is it being tested? i know the bofors gun is being tested but didnt hear about Archer coming for trials.

I may be wrong, but I think the Archer has already been tested in India, though it was some time ago..

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Apr 2010 21:59

If it was you, you can say thanks and move on.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 21 Apr 2010 22:38

ramana wrote:If it was you, you can say thanks and move on.

Thanks for the article, but I'm still in the dark. Does the IA have DU rounds in its inventory?

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 22 Apr 2010 00:45

Ashutosh Malik wrote:

Hi Khukri,

One source could be the following book:

"Looking East to Look West"
Author: Sunanda K. Datta-Ray
Publisher: Penguin/ Viking
ISBN: 9780670082384

Among other stuff in the book, which primarily focuses on India-Singapore relationship and its various facets, particularly from Singapore's perspective and thoughts, you could check out page 104 where a letter written on August 9, 1965, by Mr. Lee Kuan Yew, then PM of Singapore to Mr. Lal Bahadur Shastri, then PM of India, is documented.

Best regards.

Dude, instead of making me go out and buy the book could you just scan the letter and paste it here -or just quote the relevant passage from the letter?

Many thanks.