Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

[Rahul M]

dberwal sahab, could you please explain what you mean by this ?

तिरेपन total new
चौवन indep sqd to new
पचपन indep sqd to new
छप्पन indep sqd to new

what does "indep sqd to new" mean ? and there already is one 53 armd reg per BR page. http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... oured.html


pardon me, but I've trouble understanding your telegram-english most of the time. it would help if you could use complete sentences and words for a change.
thank you.

[d_berwal]

what i meant was new raising's...
तिरेपन total new
चौवन indep sqd to new
पचपन indep sqd to new
छप्पन indep sqd to new

all T-90

plus 2 regt already in conversion ...

totall 6 new T-90 by ear end.

for the training part... only crew coming from exiting t-90 regt (45x3 per regt) rest manpower from other regt...

d_berwal sahab, please to stop speaking in riddles. I'm trying to decipher your post. Please correct me where I'm wrong:

53rd Armored Regiment - new raising
54th (I) Squadron - nucleus of new 54th Armored Regiment
55th (I) Squadron- nucleus of new 55th Armored Regiment
56th (I) Squadron- nucleus of new 56th Armored Regiment

Can't make sense of training part.

PS: Your status of most favorite BRFite stands revoked.

ur correct....

for the training crew for mbt coming from existing T-90 regt (45 = 135 crew, 4regt = 540 crew req... done for speedy induction)... rest manpower of regt to come form other Armored regt..

BR page needs to be updated....

6AR is now called 6L (Lancers)

all 3 A Div to be T-90 by 2011 end

Air Cavalry Brgd is the new buzzz word.... IA is going all out for IT ... IA is waiting for LCH
all possible funds getting diverted for Heli born capability for Brdg size force

[rohitvats]

ur correct....

for the training crew for mbt coming from existing T-90 regt (45 = 135 crew, 4regt = 540 crew req... done for speedy induction)... rest manpower of regt to come form other Armored regt..

BR page needs to be updated....

6AR is now called 6L (Lancers)

all 3 A Div to be T-90 by 2011 end

Thank you for the information. So, what you're saying with respect to new raisings is that the crew to man these regiments will be pulled from other armored regiments. Since, requirement will be for 3+2+2+2 Squadrons worth of crew, these will be pulled from other T-90 Regiments. Balance of support staff will come online from other regiments. Right?

Also, what role does IA use (I) Armored Squadrons for? IIRC, there used to be (I) Recce Squadrons in IA? Are these used for the same role? Are these raised as nucleus for future raisings?Thanx.

And did 6AR do something really good to merit the Lancer designation?

[rohitvats]

<SNIP>..Air Cavalry Brgd is the new buzzz word.... IA is going all out for IT ... IA is waiting for LCH
all possible funds getting diverted for Heli born capability for Brdg size force

And how do we plan to get the airlift required for the AirCav Bde? ALH will not suffice.

[d_berwal]

Thank you for the information. So, what you're saying with respect to new raisings is that the crew to man these regiments will be pulled from other armored regiments. Since, requirement will be for 3+2+2+2 Squadrons worth of crew, these will be pulled from other T-90 Regiments. Balance of support staff will come online from other regiments. Right?

almost right 99%

Also, what role does IA use (I) Armored Squadrons for? IIRC, there used to be (I) Recce Squadrons in IA? Are these used for the same role? Are these raised as nucleus for future raisings?Thanx.

role most probably getting changed as they are now full regt...
most probably move towards creation of new Div in future

And did 6AR do something really good to merit the Lancer designation?

[/quote]
yessssssssss .... thats all i can say

[Rahul M]

<SNIP>..Air Cavalry Brgd is the new buzzz word.... IA is going all out for IT ... IA is waiting for LCH
all possible funds getting diverted for Heli born capability for Brdg size force

And how do we plan to get the airlift required for the AirCav Bde? ALH will not suffice.

mi-17 may be ? IA was said to be interested in it. 5 helo flight would suffice for company strength force.

[rohitvats]

role most probably getting changed as they are now full regt...
most probably move towards creation of new Div in future

So, is the assumption that (I) Squadrons were tasked for Recce roles correct? and how long have these been with IA?

And sirji, the fact that we're raising new armored regiments and that too with T-90, are we looking at the nucleaus of a new armored division? The reason I make this assumption is that to equip the 3 Armored Divisions with T-90, we don't need to raise new regiments. Can you shed light on how many new armored regiments in all we've raised? Also, considering that the number of RAPIDS have gone up from 4 to 6 (7 planned in all), we'd be needing 6 more armored regiments. Where are these coming from?

PS: considering the wealth of information you've shared, your favorite BRFite status is partially reinstated.

[Austin]

all T-90

plus 2 regt already in conversion ...

totall 6 new T-90 by ear end.

So T-90 Bishma is winning new grounds.

Any decision on Arjun specially after recent trials ?

[Surya]

So T-90 Bishma is winning new grounds.

Winning???

More like a quick attempt to ram the status quo before facts start inconveniencing the powers to be

[James Cockburn]

Folks why do we need tanks
border where the tanks could be used are
full of canals
heavily mined
our strategy is not to occupy enemy territory
Only reason we need tanks is our army is still in WW II mode.
Oh may be used for anti naxal ops?

Why not go for Helicops based offensive weapons and fast moving troop dropings from air?

[Surya]

will some admin welcome Guderian 3??

[niran]

Folks why do we need tanks
border where the tanks could be used are
full of canals
heavily mined
our strategy is not to occupy enemy territory
Only reason we need tanks is our army is still in WW II mode.
Oh may be used for anti naxal ops?

Why not go for Helicops based offensive weapons and fast moving troop dropings from air?

oh! fear not Sire, FMBT will be designed with ability to fly at Mach5 at treetops height, see Sire,
155m main gun will have special shells, which when fired will act as a rakit, and FMBT will use the
force to fly over all obstacle, simple? no?

[Boudhayan]

Seeing d_berwal Sir's initial post about 4 new regiments, I was about to cry out in happiness but seeing its the Bhishma that is coming in, I started crying in sadness

any news of Arjun's new order coming in from paanwalls ??? or for that matter the "official" result about Arjun's trial ??

would really love to see the Al-khalids and T-85s shouting on their radio "IA Arjuns are killing us and we have got no place to run...God save us !!!"

[rohitvats]

Quick question: We have 9 T-90 Regiments as of now, right?

[Austin]

would really love to see the Al-khalids and T-85s shouting on their radio "IA Arjuns are killing us and we have got no place to run...God save us !!!"

Well you have to wait for the new co-developed FMBT aka T-95 Krishna , speeding through the desert and firing its 152 mm round that literally chops the enemy tank like red hot knife passing through butter while the enemy chants Hare Krishna in fear.

Well enough of this Arjun , Bishma now I want to see Krishna FMBT

[Rahul M]

bhisma --> old man with beard who likes to sleep on a bed of arrows. proof one would prefer something more macho for the country's principal MBT, something like the arjun. nor would one want to name a MBT after someone who basically sat out the major war of his times.

[Surya]

would really love to see the Al-khalids and T-85s shouting on their radio "IA Arjuns are killing us and we have got no place to run...God save us !!!"

Well you can hear a version of it(no killing but the thoughts of being killed ) from Parakaram if you are real nice to the appropriate chaiwallahs.

[rohitvats]

Quick question: We have 9 T-90 Regiments as of now, right?

d_berwal sahab, Rahul da, awaiting your reply to the above query....please to answer.

[atreya]

bhisma --> old man with beard who likes to sleep on a bed of arrows. proof one would prefer something more macho for the country's principal MBT, something like the arjun. nor would one want to name a MBT after someone who basically sat out the major war of his times.

Going OT here, but I would like to differ on that. Bhishma was one of the most powerful and feared warriors of his times. He couldn't be vanquished by "conventional" warfare, as simply put, he had no equal. The "bed of arrows" on which he lay were shot by Arjun, when the latter was shielded behind a "hijra", Shikhandi, who in turn was shielded by his previous birth, Amba's curse. Further, Bhishma had the power of "ichcha- mrityu", i.e. he could choose the time of his death. I don't know whether we can say that for our T-90, but the name surely fits, as the Arjun recently out-gunned, out-maneuvered and out-what-not the Bhishma and laid it on a virtual bed of arrows!

[Rahul M]

rohit, I don't have the numbers beyond open source speculation. I think it won't be 9 complete regiments, total T-90 holdings :

310 (120 import + 190 CKD/SKD) + production @ HVF (~10) + more SKD/CKD from the 2nd deal (unknown, extrapolating original production rate, ~ 100 max)

= ~ 420 tanks, that's a bit less than 7 rgmts @ 62/rgmt but to raise/convert the rgmts they might not have allocated all 62.

_______
atreya, why bring forth facts in a rhetoric vs rhetoric confrontation ?

[Rahul M]

rohit any idea which direction the eventual full mechanisation plan will take ? why don't we develop a simple wheeled APC based on the tatra 8X8 and churn it out in numbers ?...<SNIP>

sirji, no idea on the full mechanization. The only mechanization that seems to be happening is conversion of some divisions to RAPIDS. 12 ID and 4 ID are now RAPIDS. That brings total to 6. Orbat.com article spoke of raising the same to 7. One more should be under conversion as we speak - but no open source info as to which one. So, part of Gen.Sundarji's plan is in place....

correct me if I'm wrong but army plan 2000 called for
> 4 armoured div
> conversion of all plain inf div to mech except
> 7 of them which would be converted to a mix of inf + mech inf, namely RAPID.

AFAIK, point 2 is yet to take off in any meaningful way barring two mech inf bde. the point is it is very costly to mechanise all formations with tracked vehicles, even the red army found that too costly and opted for the various BTR's. why don't we do the same ?
creating wheeled APC's on hardy heavy duty trucks is a tried and tested method and we have a ready candidate in the 8X8 tatra.

[rohitvats]

correct me if I'm wrong but army plan 2000 called for
> 4 armoured div
> conversion of all plain inf div to mech except
> 7 of them which would be converted to a mix of inf + mech inf, namely RAPID.

AFAIK, point 2 is yet to take off in any meaningful way barring two mech inf bde. the point is it is very costly to mechanise all formations with tracked vehicles, even the red army found that too costly and opted for the various BTR's. why don't we do the same ?
creating wheeled APC's on hardy heavy duty trucks is a tried and tested method and we have a ready candidate in the 8X8 tatra.

All good intentions and suggestion but I've not seen any movement on the ground. I was hoping Stryker fills in this vacancy. Domestic production of Indian specific version should bring down the cost drastically - as it is we won't go with usual Western bells and whistles.

[Kanson]

would really love to see the Al-khalids and T-85s shouting on their radio "IA Arjuns are killing us and we have got no place to run...God save us !!!"

Well you have to wait for the new co-developed FMBT aka T-95 Krishna , speeding through the desert and firing its 152 mm round that literally chops the enemy tank like red hot knife passing through butter while the enemy chants Hare Krishna in fear.

Well enough of this Arjun , Bishma now I want to see Krishna FMBT

even for FMBT, is it T-95 ?!! Hare krishna!!

[Yagnasri]

Just because some one is firing 152 MM round it does not mean that the tanks like Abram M1A2 or Leo A6 will get blown apart. I very much doubt T95 is offering any major advantage over existing MBTs of west.

By the way Krishna did not actually fought in Kurukshetra war. He has driven and guided Pandawas to win the war. So Krishna may be for some top level battle management tool like AWACS is more suitable.

[d_berwal]

Quick question: We have 9 T-90 Regiments as of now, right?

sm correction

तिरेपन raised 1999

चौवन raised 2010
पचपन raised 2010

छप्पन to be raised 2011
सत्तावन to be raised 2011

Total 15 Regiments of T-90 approx... +/- 1 as of today

[rohitvats]

sm correction

तिरेपन raised 1999 - thank you for confirming what I heard from other sources.

चौवन raised 2010
पचपन raised 2010

छप्पन to be raised 2011
सत्तावन to be raised 2011

{The (I) Squadrons are in place but the Regiments will be raised as per above schedule?}

Total 15 Regiments of T-90 approx... +/- 1 as of today

{have you factored in the above four into this? And finally, are we going to see 6 Regiments to raised in all?}

[d_berwal]

sm correction

तिरेपन raised 1999 - thank you for confirming what I heard from other sources.

चौवन raised 2010
पचपन raised 2010

छप्पन to be raised 2011
सत्तावन to be raised 2011

{The (I) Squadrons are in place but the Regiments will be raised as per above schedule?}

Total 15 Regiments of T-90 approx... +/- 1 as of today

{have you factored in the above four into this? And finally, are we going to see 6 Regiments to raised in all?}

चौवन raised 2010 under conversion training @ ACC&S
पचपन raised 2010 under conversion training @ ACC&S

I have only factored in चौवन & पचपन

we are going to see 4 new as of now by 2011 at the max.. few more may come in in the next 5 yr plan

[rohitvats]

चौवन raised 2010 under conversion training @ ACC&S
पचपन raised 2010 under conversion training @ ACC&S

I have only factored in चौवन & पचपन

we are going to see 4 new as of now by 2011 at the max.. few more may come in in the next 5 yr plan

So, 53rd is already equipped with T-90? Also, this five year plan runs till 2012(?)..so why not raise couple of more in 2012?Any thoughts? And finally, any news of conversion of more infantry units to Mech/Guards?

Thank you for the other information.

[d_berwal]

चौवन raised 2010 under conversion training @ ACC&S
पचपन raised 2010 under conversion training @ ACC&S

I have only factored in चौवन & पचपन

we are going to see 4 new as of now by 2011 at the max.. few more may come in in the next 5 yr plan

So, 53rd is already equipped with T-90? Also, this five year plan runs till 2012(?)..so why not raise couple of more in 2012?Any thoughts? And finally, any news of conversion of more infantry units to Mech/Guards?

Thank you for the other information.

53 t-72

we might see more new raising's till now T-90 is not replacing T-72's... all Vij and T-55 already converted...

nothing on mech

[aditp]

53 t-72

we might see more new raising's till now T-90 is not replacing T-72's... all Vij and T-55 already converted...
nothing on mech

Surely the Vijayantas and T-55s were never meant to be spearheading an armoured thrust into Pukeland. They were always for the secondary defensive role. So if the above is true, the DGMF is only being very clever and nixing any further scope for the Arjun tank. They dont even want to see the Arjun in any secondary role. It is hightime that Shikhandi intervened.

[rohitvats]

53 t-72

we might see more new raising's till now T-90 is not replacing T-72's... all Vij and T-55 already converted...

nothing on mech

d_berwal sahab, you're status of favorite BRFites is fully restored now... next time we meet, you're favorite scotch is on me...

What you've said raises some more questions - please to enlighten with due regards to OpSec...

--So, T-55 upgrade is not been sustained for use till 2017 (as was earlier plan with Project Gulmohar)?
--If we have converted only the T-55 and Vijayanta Regiments, the T-72 Regiments with Armored Divisions would have become available for other formations like RAPIDS/(I) Armored Brigades/Div.Armored Regiment. This will strengthen their armor profile. Right?
--Also, afaik, some of the oldest armored regiments of IA were/are equipped with T-72 - even these have not been considered for T-90 conversion ...that is new trend for sure. Your thoughts?
--Also, if memory serves me right, of the authorized strength of 63 Armored Regiments, IA had 59(60?-not counting 61 Cav) Armored Regiments. These new raisings will be used to fill the earlier void. Any thoughts on the requirement for more Armored Regiments for more RAPIDS and may be, 4th Armored Division.

Thanx in advance.

[rohitvats]

Surely the Vijayantas and T-55s were never meant to be spearheading an armoured thrust into Pukeland. They were always for the secondary defensive role. So if the above is true, the DGMF is only being very clever and nixing any further scope for the Arjun tank. They dont even want to see the Arjun in any secondary role. It is hightime that Shikhandi intervened.

I will not take that line of argument...IA has >2,000 T-72 and as per public information, it will upgrade about 1200 of these...the void left by the other T-72 - which will need to be phased out, is what the Arjun can fill easily.

[Rahul M]

okay, guys so how many armd rgt's do we have now ? on paper ? 63+4 ? I'm getting kanphused.

berwal sahab, thanks a lot for the info.

[VinayG]

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[VinayG]

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[VinayG]

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[rohitvats]

okay, guys so how many armd rgt's do we have now ? on paper ? 63+4 ? I'm getting kanphused.

berwal sahab, thanks a lot for the info.

rahul da, I don't know if armored regiments have been raised prior to what d_berwal sahab has shared; if these are the only ones raised/planned, then the number is 59+2+(2) - to the level authorized. IIRC, orbat.com had once carried the news that 6 new raisings are planned - we have 2 more to go.

[Venu]

Jaguar upgrade of T-55 from US. One mean looking machine it is, whoa!!

[Craig Alpert]

Leopard 2 Main Battle Tank

[Shameek]

http://www.ptinews.com/news/601257_Lieu ... y-exercise

An army lieutenant was killed and two personnel were injured when their tank fell into a well during a military exercise in Rajasthan's Churu district, police said today.

RIP. Hope the other two men are doing ok.