but nevertheless blistering attack on that Varavara RaoThe Red Menace
Re: The Red Menace
Mupalla garu have been in lurker mode, too many targets too few hours at work. I knew this would solicit response from your but nevertheless blistering attack on that Varavara Rao
but nevertheless blistering attack on that Varavara RaoRe: The Red Menace
Maoists blow up school, hospital
It is my belief that these attacks may keep rising until the assembly elections scheduled for this year, except if there are some changes in the political alliances in the state.
Patna, April 11: Maoists blew up four government buildings in two south Bihar districts even as leaders remained locked in a war of words and stayed divided on the issue of dealing with rebels.
A day after Bihar chief minister Nitish Kumar advised Union home minister P. Chidambaram to practise “restraint and speak less” on the Maoist issue, the guerrillas razed a middle school, a community hall and a primary health centre at Sarodag village in Kaimur district.
In another incident, guerrillas blew up a middle school under Dev police station in Aurangabad district.
Re: The Red Menace
Does anyone follow the politics in Bihar?
Do the maoists have some sort of understanding with laloo-ji's RJD?
Do the maoists have some sort of understanding with laloo-ji's RJD?
Re: The Red Menace
One must view PV through a darker lens.Understand the man first.He has great ambitions,in that he wants to succeed MMS as India's PM.MMS's health is in doubt and he might not last out his second term.Rahul is too young and inexperienced at the moment,and exposing him too soon might be a serious mistake.AS long as SG calls the shots,in the immortal words of Alfred E.Neuman,"What me worry?" Pranab is too old and the man in the GOP who has all the right attributes and the best opportunity appears to be PC...if only he plays his cards well.It is why his bluff and bluster on the war against terror,external and internal ,ending the Naxal menace within "thre years",was meant for a wider audience,the whole nation.
The shame of the Naxal massacre has put a massive dent into his ambitions,as the sheer scale of the defeat has shocked the entire nation.The utter ineptitude of HMs' strategy has been revealed.We now have a wave of typical Indian indecision as to how to bring the Naxals to book.Political considerations with both eyes turned firmly upon the votebank are damaging the security of India even further.The absurd "fear" of using air power against enemies of the state who might very well in the time to come assassinate more important political leaders,just as the LTTE did as it grew stronger,Can we "wait" as "experts" say,for the Naxal menace to grow old and die?The answer is NO,because far from dying out,the Naxal menace is growing rapidly by leaps and bounds.Four years ago,a prominent scribe in Delhi warned me about this menace saying that the GOI was clueless as to the danger from it.As we see the gap between the rich and poor widen with each day,the have-nots will be further drawn towards a revolutionary path,while the "haves",the pampered lot of the politico-babu nexus will live in their well-guarded ivory towers with many wanting even more force to be used.
Sadly,even the minimum modicum of force essential for success is wanting and we are still debating whether "to use... or not to use" air power clouds the entire issue.Thus,neither the "stick" or the "carrot" is being offered to the locals in whose territory the Naxals spawn,safe in the knowledge that they can always rely upon the backlash of state terror to further popularise their cause (we are seeing locals fleeing in fear of just such a situ).
The shame of the Naxal massacre has put a massive dent into his ambitions,as the sheer scale of the defeat has shocked the entire nation.The utter ineptitude of HMs' strategy has been revealed.We now have a wave of typical Indian indecision as to how to bring the Naxals to book.Political considerations with both eyes turned firmly upon the votebank are damaging the security of India even further.The absurd "fear" of using air power against enemies of the state who might very well in the time to come assassinate more important political leaders,just as the LTTE did as it grew stronger,Can we "wait" as "experts" say,for the Naxal menace to grow old and die?The answer is NO,because far from dying out,the Naxal menace is growing rapidly by leaps and bounds.Four years ago,a prominent scribe in Delhi warned me about this menace saying that the GOI was clueless as to the danger from it.As we see the gap between the rich and poor widen with each day,the have-nots will be further drawn towards a revolutionary path,while the "haves",the pampered lot of the politico-babu nexus will live in their well-guarded ivory towers with many wanting even more force to be used.
Sadly,even the minimum modicum of force essential for success is wanting and we are still debating whether "to use... or not to use" air power clouds the entire issue.Thus,neither the "stick" or the "carrot" is being offered to the locals in whose territory the Naxals spawn,safe in the knowledge that they can always rely upon the backlash of state terror to further popularise their cause (we are seeing locals fleeing in fear of just such a situ).
Re: The Red Menace
No not really, the Yadav's are quite prosperous and strongly anti-naxal. The Naxal's in Bihar (despite all the hoo ha about Naxals) are/were never of the scale in other places. Most of Naxals were used for copy-cat crime, do something and blame on Naxal type of thingy (note Bihar means Bihar - Jharkhand)Gagan wrote:Does anyone follow the politics in Bihar?
Do the maoists have some sort of understanding with laloo-ji's RJD?
Different sorts, limited themselves to planting red flags on lands once in a while etc.. they benfited from general lawlessness during Laloo, but are not really linked.
Re: The Red Menace
X-post from Para-Mil thread -
The latest Outlook mag has the story on Dantewada ambush - The Alpha Company was on ADE - Area Dominance Exercise. The party was attacked on 6:45am when they were sleeping after the trek and their is claim of complete lack of security and watch guard...the bullet-proof vehicle ambushed was from the re-inforcement convoy after the situation was radioed to the Bn HQ...as expected, the access route had been booby trapped to ambush any releif party...
The latest Outlook mag has the story on Dantewada ambush - The Alpha Company was on ADE - Area Dominance Exercise. The party was attacked on 6:45am when they were sleeping after the trek and their is claim of complete lack of security and watch guard...the bullet-proof vehicle ambushed was from the re-inforcement convoy after the situation was radioed to the Bn HQ...as expected, the access route had been booby trapped to ambush any releif party...
Re: The Red Menace
I was not talking about you speculating.Viv S wrote:I'm not speculating. Instances of ex-SAS(as well as from regular forces) personnel entering the mercenary business were common even before the Simon Mann fiasco. And seeing the astronomical payouts, I'm not surprised. Even today they dominate the PMC business. http://www.sandline.com/hotlinks/Economist-Baghdad.html
...None at all in fact everybody was just acting on their own.Well there isn't any evidence to suggest that the Purulia arms drop was masterminded by the SIS for some obscure purpose.
Re: The Red Menace
Yes but can't give you a web link!!! Also please expect the frequency of these 'attacks' to increase till Nov when the Assembley elections are due to take please.Gagan wrote:Does anyone follow the politics in Bihar?
Do the maoists have some sort of understanding with laloo-ji's RJD?
Re: The Red Menace
I'm still not sure what you're getting at.pgbhat wrote:I was not talking about you speculating.Viv S wrote:I'm not speculating. Instances of ex-SAS(as well as from regular forces) personnel entering the mercenary business were common even before the Simon Mann fiasco. And seeing the astronomical payouts, I'm not surprised. Even today they dominate the PMC business. http://www.sandline.com/hotlinks/Economist-Baghdad.html
Edit: Maybe you're suggesting that an ex-SAS fellow being involved was actually news to me? Well I read about that aspect while googling the case, after Brihaspati told me to check up which countries were involved. I still haven't found any solid evidence of the UK being involved.
They were obviously working for somebody but again it there is nothing to suggest the SIS was involved in 'nefarious' activities to further their 'white Christian supremacist' agenda.None at all in fact everybody was just acting on their own.
Last edited by Viv S on 12 Apr 2010 17:06, edited 1 time in total.
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brihaspati
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Re: The Red Menace
Just trawl through the arms and ammunitions supplies available with the Naxals or ULFA, or various militant outfits in the NE. A certain proportion can be explained away as being lost by national armies in conflict. But the numbers would be extremely small given large scale modern wars have not been going on in eastern Asia. If arms have been appropriated from the ME wars, in such large numbers - more imortantly, a constant supply of ammunition - [you can get once off caches of arms say by ambush or spectacular defeats of advanced armies which then have to be assumed to have not been declared. But you cannot get constant supply of live ammunition that way] - it indicates a cozy arrangement with the defence industries of nations. Which in turn cannot happen unless the respective armies and givernments are also involved.Viv S wrote
Like?
I thought I amde it quite clear in the passage. Making it more elaborate here will go OT. Long term objective is to establish a society and ideology that would be subject and submissive to western control. Additionally destroy alternative ideologies that have proved resistant to the west. Islamism is preferable to "paganism" - because then it brings the whole thing into the European experience. Islamism is understandable, belonging to a strand of the Judaic - and can be fought or comrpmised with on terms well understood. Christian harvesting of all Indian souls would be preferable to Islamism. If that is not feasible, let it be Islamism. The "pagan" on the other hand can neither be understood, nor fought or compromised with. Its simply beyond comprehension and therefore from the fundamentally tribal fears that underlie the Nordic mindest [as reflected in history] is sheer evil and a spanner in the otherwise clear, black and white worldview.So what end are you referring to? What is the long term objective here?
All this can also be put under the "vulgar Marxist" framework of "everything is motivated by economics onlee" delusion as a cover. India can be a signficant accummulator of wealth that can be tapped again in another form of colonialism. Anyway - thats another long strand, and not worth spending time on here.
Sorry about this, but you have to look at it starting from the initiatives under FDR. US did try up to a certain point. But then it all changed because probably the Brits managed to convince them of the necessity of leaning towards POGWI against India. American policy at that time overwhelmingly supported everything Paki. Do you see much choice on JLN and IG side? What do you think shows up in the invention of the "Nonaligned" stance? If they were willing to jump into the lap of USSR completely, this acting shy was not necessary.IG and Nehru were always close to the USSR. The USSR officially backed India's position on Kashmir and Goa as far back as 1955. At a strategic level with the US never had much hope of getting off the ground thanks to the zero-sum equations of the time.
I find this persistent casual bashing of the "right" with abusive terms quite curious. Nutters or not - at least they state their positions and intentions quite clearly. This mankes them easier to deal with and plan for. The real nutters are those hanging out in the middle. The self-declared purely neutral and strictly unbiased who basically are sheer opportunists. these are the people who swing when they see opportunity and make the extremists successful. In fact they overdo it and are primary causes behind excesses. Study the German's in the period 1931-1933. Look at the nature of changes in labour organizations, and social tendencies.Every country has its share of right-wing nutters including our own. And they're usually irrelevant to foreign policy.
Right wing or lets say more extreme positions are strong determinants of foreign policies. Over the long term, it is the extreme position that plays out in national policies towards "others". They may face reality checks and appear to falter - but the primary long term drives in nations or national groups correlate quite well with the extreme position that they happen to hold deep at that period. It is all the more dangerous because national governments usually pretend that they are not hiding such an extremist position inside. [ I hope you also find Left wing nutters around! Somehow it is only always the "right" which is found to be nuts!]
Re: The Red Menace
Tsk tsk B ji! Don't you know that post/s on this very thread has pronounced whom you call "left wing nutters" like "Jyoti babu" as having 100 percent Indian vision and batting for that vision.[ I hope you also find Left wing nutters around! Somehow it is only always the "right" which is found to be nuts!]
Some news:
Three Naxal leaders Kosa, Gudsa Usendi and Rma claim responsibility
Dantewada effect? CRPF 'suspends' anti-Maoist drive in BastarJagdalpur: Three Naxal leaders have claimed responsibility for the dastardly April 6 assault at Tadmetla forest in Dantewada district's Chintalnar Police Station limits that resulted in the martyrdom of 76 security personnel including eight officers of the Central Reserve Police Force, besides eight Maoists.
A release issued yesterday and bearing the signatures of Dandakaranya Special Zonal Committee Secretary Kosa, spokesman Gudsa Usendi and Rma stated that the roughly three-hour-long attack was to be viewed as retaliatory action for neutralising of rebel leaders and 'Operation Green Hunt'.
Jharkhand Police being trained to counter Maoist attacks
Re: The Red Menace
I'll answer that but first, what weapons are you referring to?brihaspati wrote:Just trawl through the arms and ammunitions supplies available with the Naxals or ULFA, or various militant outfits in the NE. A certain proportion can be explained away as being lost by national armies in conflict. But the numbers would be extremely small given large scale modern wars have not been going on in eastern Asia. If arms have been appropriated from the ME wars, in such large numbers - more imortantly, a constant supply of ammunition - [you can get once off caches of arms say by ambush or spectacular defeats of advanced armies which then have to be assumed to have not been declared. But you cannot get constant supply of live ammunition that way] - it indicates a cozy arrangement with the defence industries of nations. Which in turn cannot happen unless the respective armies and givernments are also involved.Viv S wrote
Like?
Maybe I'm missing something here, but that sounds like - the US and UK will support communist Naxals in order to weaken India because they are racist white supremists who hate pagans but are tolerant of Islam - ??I thought I amde it quite clear in the passage. Making it more elaborate here will go OT. Long term objective is to establish a society and ideology that would be subject and submissive to western control. Additionally destroy alternative ideologies that have proved resistant to the west. Islamism is preferable to "paganism" - because then it brings the whole thing into the European experience. Islamism is understandable, belonging to a strand of the Judaic - and can be fought or comrpmised with on terms well understood. Christian harvesting of all Indian souls would be preferable to Islamism. If that is not feasible, let it be Islamism. The "pagan" on the other hand can neither be understood, nor fought or compromised with. Its simply beyond comprehension and therefore from the fundamentally tribal fears that underlie the Nordic mindest [as reflected in history] is sheer evil and a spanner in the otherwise clear, black and white worldview.
- The west would also like to hinder India's economic growth, exploit its existing wealth and colonize the country - ?All this can also be put under the "vulgar Marxist" framework of "everything is motivated by economics onlee" delusion as a cover. India can be a signficant accummulator of wealth that can be tapped again in another form of colonialism. Anyway - thats another long strand, and not worth spending time on here.
Well the US was looking for an ally and Nehru wasn't interested. Politically he was a socialist(as was IG), the US decided to cut its losses and take it up with Pakistan who despite being smaller was interested in allying with the west.Sorry about this, but you have to look at it starting from the initiatives under FDR. US did try up to a certain point. But then it all changed because probably the Brits managed to convince them of the necessity of leaning towards POGWI against India. American policy at that time overwhelmingly supported everything Paki. Do you see much choice on JLN and IG side? What do you think shows up in the invention of the "Nonaligned" stance? If they were willing to jump into the lap of USSR completely, this acting shy was not necessary.
I guess I'm centrist nutter then.I find this persistent casual bashing of the "right" with abusive terms quite curious. Nutters or not - at least they state their positions and intentions quite clearly. This mankes them easier to deal with and plan for. The real nutters are those hanging out in the middle. The self-declared purely neutral and strictly unbiased who basically are sheer opportunists.
Well the evangelists in the right wing in the US don't have the kind of influence over foreign policy that would pull off a conspiracy of this nature. India-US relations have been strongest in the last 60 years under a Republican presidency.Right wing or lets say more extreme positions are strong determinants of foreign policies. Over the long term, it is the extreme position that plays out in national policies towards "others". They may face reality checks and appear to falter - but the primary long term drives in nations or national groups correlate quite well with the extreme position that they happen to hold deep at that period. It is all the more dangerous because national governments usually pretend that they are not hiding such an extremist position inside.
With regard to the UK, the right doesn't have a religious element and there's nothing they'd gain by supporting Maoists.
Not at all. You just have to look to the Naxals for that. They actually think they can overthrow the Indian government and that's nutty enough for me.[ I hope you also find Left wing nutters around! Somehow it is only always the "right" which is found to be nuts!]
Re: The Red Menace
OT OT OT .....Please don't associated such words with what I said. Lets just call it their "national" agenda.Viv S wrote:They were obviously working for somebody but again it there is nothing to suggest the SIS was involved in 'nefarious' activities to further their 'white Christian supremacist' agenda.None at all in fact everybody was just acting on their own.
Anyhow, as I said you are entitled to your opinion. I am happy being a conspiracy nut job.
Re: The Red Menace
Very well, we'll agree to disagree then.pgbhat wrote: OT OT OT .....Please don't associated such words with what I said. Lets just call it their "national" agenda.
Anyhow, as I said you are entitled to your opinion. I am happy being a conspiracy nut job.
Last edited by Viv S on 12 Apr 2010 20:23, edited 1 time in total.
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brihaspati
- BRF Oldie
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Re: The Red Menace
Viv S ji,
I will wind up these lines of explorations on thsi thread - as they are all going OT now. Please look carefully at the exact expressions I have used - which I am most careful about. I said Islamism was preferable to paganism. Christian control would be preferable to Islamism. Maoism would be just a tool to keep the pressure on GOI. Moreover, with the Islamists threatening to go out of control now - it is safer to have a handle in a militant organization that can have some appeal and presence in "difficult terrain" within India.
I will just ask you to research but not report on this forum about CCOMPOSA. You will come across many connections to the "west".
At the end of it all: think of possibilities mentioned by even from the opposite end of the spectrum of political views from yourself. Check them out and not drop them thinking that they are just "nutty" exudations. Do not believe everything that any national entity/party/gov says its intentions are, but check it with actual ground action and how certain relevant situations actually evolve over time. You will see the pattern and can keep it to yourself.
Ideological blindness occurs the strongest in those who claim neutrality and unbiasedness the loudest. If the claim is ear-splitting, it is likely to hide ulterior fanatical motivations kept firmly hidden but expressed in long term policies and actions. I am reluctant to discuss explicitly intel ops by foreign nations.
Added; tehre is something called the Principle of Occam's Razor. Essentially saying that if two competitive hypothesis suffice to explain observed phenomena, take the one that needs fewer axioms. I use that to come to conclusions, even if lands me into politically incorrect observations. Many of us refuse to take the simpler explanation becuase it goes against what we have been taught to believe over long periods of time, or it sounds impossible because we cannot imagine others to think/behave so. I do not model others as myself. Indians should not model the west/Islamists/Maoists as their own copies.
I will wind up these lines of explorations on thsi thread - as they are all going OT now. Please look carefully at the exact expressions I have used - which I am most careful about. I said Islamism was preferable to paganism. Christian control would be preferable to Islamism. Maoism would be just a tool to keep the pressure on GOI. Moreover, with the Islamists threatening to go out of control now - it is safer to have a handle in a militant organization that can have some appeal and presence in "difficult terrain" within India.
I will just ask you to research but not report on this forum about CCOMPOSA. You will come across many connections to the "west".
At the end of it all: think of possibilities mentioned by even from the opposite end of the spectrum of political views from yourself. Check them out and not drop them thinking that they are just "nutty" exudations. Do not believe everything that any national entity/party/gov says its intentions are, but check it with actual ground action and how certain relevant situations actually evolve over time. You will see the pattern and can keep it to yourself.
Ideological blindness occurs the strongest in those who claim neutrality and unbiasedness the loudest. If the claim is ear-splitting, it is likely to hide ulterior fanatical motivations kept firmly hidden but expressed in long term policies and actions. I am reluctant to discuss explicitly intel ops by foreign nations.
Added; tehre is something called the Principle of Occam's Razor. Essentially saying that if two competitive hypothesis suffice to explain observed phenomena, take the one that needs fewer axioms. I use that to come to conclusions, even if lands me into politically incorrect observations. Many of us refuse to take the simpler explanation becuase it goes against what we have been taught to believe over long periods of time, or it sounds impossible because we cannot imagine others to think/behave so. I do not model others as myself. Indians should not model the west/Islamists/Maoists as their own copies.
Re: The Red Menace
I must point out, religion no longer plays the kind of decisive role it did in the centuries past. While radical Islamists are a worry for the west because majority of the world's oil comes from (mostly) conservative muslim countries, truth is Islam, Christianity, Paganism, Judaism et al are well on their way to becoming meaningless in the globalized world. And religion certainly cannot be the basis for running a covert operation supporting communist insurgency against a friendly state. Also, a brief look at major US Asian allies is illuminatory. With an atheistic South Korea, Shintoist Japan, Buddhist-Taoist Taiwan, Buddhist Singapore and a Buddhist Thailand mostly retaining their demographic make-up, its an incomprehensible idea that a great religious conspiracy is underway at a time when religion(and therefore Christianity) is flagging in the west. While evangelists have becoming more outspoken, person who identify themselves as Christians have decreased rapidly and even among those who do, church-going is at a record lows and continually dropping.brihaspati wrote:Viv S ji,
I will wind up these lines of explorations on thsi thread - as they are all going OT now. Please look carefully at the exact expressions I have used - which I am most careful about. I said Islamism was preferable to paganism. Christian control would be preferable to Islamism. Maoism would be just a tool to keep the pressure on GOI. Moreover, with the Islamists threatening to go out of control now - it is safer to have a handle in a militant organization that can have some appeal and presence in "difficult terrain" within India.
I can't find anything concrete on CCOMPOSA except for some blog articles.I will just ask you to research but not report on this forum about CCOMPOSA. You will come across many connections to the "west".
http://resistanceindia.wordpress.com/category/ccomposa/ (all Maoists apparently hate the 'imperialist', 'war-mongering' US). Perhaps you've got something to post that suggests otherwise.
Well I'm centrist, so no real 'opposite' political views. I do my best to evaluate facts and then form hypothesis/theories. I don't see a conspiracy in this case. (My 'umble opinion onlee)At the end of it all: think of possibilities mentioned by even from the opposite end of the spectrum of political views from yourself. Check them out and not drop them thinking that they are just "nutty" exudations. Do not believe everything that any national entity/party/gov says its intentions are, but check it with actual ground action and how certain relevant situations actually evolve over time. You will see the pattern and can keep it to yourself.
^^ That's too complex a thought for me.Ideological blindness occurs the strongest in those who claim neutrality and unbiasedness the loudest. If the claim is ear-splitting, it is likely to hide ulterior fanatical motivations kept firmly hidden but expressed in long term policies and actions.
Do you know something which you're not allowed to discuss on an open forum?I am reluctant to discuss explicitly intel ops by foreign nations
I disagree. In this case the simpler explanation is that the west isn't involved in destabilizing India for a convoluted objective.Added; tehre is something called the Principle of Occam's Razor. Essentially saying that if two competitive hypothesis suffice to explain observed phenomena, take the one that needs fewer axioms. I use that to come to conclusions, even if lands me into politically incorrect observations. Many of us refuse to take the simpler explanation becuase it goes against what we have been taught to believe over long periods of time, or it sounds impossible because we cannot imagine others to think/behave so. I do not model others as myself. Indians should not model the west/Islamists/Maoists as their own copies.
Re: The Red Menace
Sorry to butt in and possibly this is way OT, but South Korea has been facing massive conversions to Christianity for quite sometime. And I am quite aware of the presence of South Korean missionaries in the fringes of South Kolkata.Viv S wrote: With an atheistic South Korea,
Re: The Red Menace
Very apposite reply by ROHINI HENSMAN to the jhollah wallah brigade
‘Far away, in that other fake democracy called India’: so said Arundhati Roy in a passing reference to India when she began her talk at the finale of the Left Forum 2010 in New York in the middle of March. Fake democracy? Yet in the same month her long essay ‘Walking With the Comrades,’ supporting the struggle of the CPI (Maoist) in the tribal areas, was published by a mainstream, corporate-controlled Indian magazine, Outlook. How would that be possible if India were just a ‘fake’ democracy? By way of a comparison, across the border in Sri Lanka, the March issue of Himal Southasian was seized by customs on account of an article of mine, despite the fact that I have always been sharply critical of the insurgencies of the LTTE and JVP, and cannot by any stretch of the imagination be described as sympathetic to terrorism or violence. Earlier editions of Himal with articles by writers critical of both the government and the LTTE have suffered the same fate. My articles have been turned down by one newspaper after another in Sri Lanka, and I do not blame their editors and owners: so many journalists, editors and owners who have been critical of the regime in power have been jailed, killed or disappeared, even if they, too, had been critical of the LTTE.
Indeed, Arundhati herself had mentioned the plight of journalists in Sri Lanka in an article she wrote around a year ago, warning that ‘genocide waits to happen’. She wrote eloquently about the civilians trapped in the war zone being bombed and shelled indiscriminately by government forces, but failed to mention that the LTTE was holding these same civilians hostage and shooting them if they tried to escape, using them as human shields from behind which they fired at government forces, forcing civilians to build bunds under enemy fire, putting guns into the hands of children and sending them to the front line. ‘Genocide’ has a precise legal meaning that revolves crucially around intent (Article 6 of the Rome Statute of the ICC states, ‘For the purpose of this Statute, “genocide” means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group’, etc.), and it was not on the agenda in Sri Lanka. What both sides were perpetrating were heinous war crimes, and if those of us who were anguished about that situation had been able to prevail on both sides to stop committing those crimes, thousands of civilian lives could have been saved. But making exaggerated and one-sided claims did not help.
Similarly, if India is already a ‘fake democracy’, what would we call it if Arundhati and the editors and owners of Outlook were arrested and sentenced to rigorous imprisonment for twenty years for publishing that article? No one can seriously deny that India’s democracy is terribly flawed. Not only are existing legal and constitutional rights of citizens constantly violated, but draconian laws like AFSPA, against which Irom Sharmila has waged a heroic ten-year fast, actually provide legal sanction for such crimes. They are cancerous tumours on the body politic, and unless and until they are excised, it is impossible to talk of a healthy democracy. And yet, characterising India’s democracy as ‘fake’ belittles the efforts of millions of grassroots activists using constitutional means to struggle for the rights of women, children, workers, dalits, adivasis and minority communities, to fight for justice without killing or wounding anyone. It demeans the efforts of Arundhati’s former comrades in the NBA. And it misunderstands democracy as a gift of the ruling class, whereas it can only be won by unremitting struggle.
If writing off Indian democracy as fake is intended to legitimise armed struggle against the state, that has dangerous potential to strengthen authoritarianism. Take the tactic of enforcing election boycotts by armed movements. There is no obligation to vote, so people who do not think it is worth supporting any candidate have the option of not voting, or spoiling their ballot papers if they want to register a stronger protest. But enforcing a boycott with threats of violence takes away yet one more small liberty, and results in a setback for any struggle for rights. It can also result in counter-finality for the agent enforcing the boycott. In the 2005 presidential election in Sri Lanka, the LTTE leadership enforced an election boycott in the areas they controlled, leading to the victory of Mahinda Rajapaksa who then proceeded to wipe them out. Between 1994 and 2005, a war-weary Sri Lankan population under a relatively democratic government had been willing to concede the democratic rights and freedoms demanded by Tamils, but the LTTE leadership held out for a separate totalitarian Tamil state. Along with the crimes against Tamil civilians mentioned above and many others, it was their own acts which led to their destruction.
Enforcing bandhs by threatening violence is another tactic that takes away the rights of working people rather than expanding them. In a report sympathetic to the CPI (Maoist), Gautam Navlakha tells us that the Maoists beheaded CITU trade union leader Thomas Munda of Kulta Iron Works for defying their bandh call. And this is not the only instance of the CPI (Maoist)’s authoritarian methods (see the interview with a former Maoist area commander in Tehelka). Beheading trade unionists and killing dissident tribals is surely not the way to build a genuine as opposed to fake democracy!
In order to justify describing India as a ‘fake democracy’, two things would be required. One is to show that all or most of the thousands of struggles for democratic rights taking place every day and involving lakhs of people (including adivasis) have failed. But this is simply not true. Many battles fail, but many succeed. That is the nature of the struggle for democracy: you win some battles, lose others, learn from your failures and carry on. The other requirement would be to explain what is meant by ‘genuine democracy’. Is it the regime in the areas controlled by the CPI (Maoist), where all mass organisations are dominated by the party and dissidents are eliminated? Or the repressive and profoundly authoritarian regimes that were installed by the revolutions of the 20th century? Can Arundhati point to any ‘genuine democracy’, and if not, what does it mean to call Indian democracy ‘fake’? Again, this exaggerates the failure of democracy in India and fails to tell the other side of the story: the failure of violent revolutions to establish anything better.
The God of Small Things is a brilliant novel that well deserved the Booker Prize, but non-fiction writing demands something different. The fiction writer creates a world in her head, whereas the non-fiction writer has to relate to the world outside her head, and do a considerable amount of background research in order to get it right. In a moment of candour, during an interview in 2007, Arundhati admitted that she finds this irksome: “I feel very imprisoned by facts, by having to get it right,’ she said. But unless socialists are willing to ‘look reality in the face’, that is, take ‘facts’ more seriously, they will be building a movement founded on myths.
Posted in Debates, Politics, Violence-Conflict | Tags: Arundhati Roy, CPI (Maoists),democracy, LTTE, Rohini Hensman, sri lanka.
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‘Far away, in that other fake democracy called India’: so said Arundhati Roy in a passing reference to India when she began her talk at the finale of the Left Forum 2010 in New York in the middle of March. Fake democracy? Yet in the same month her long essay ‘Walking With the Comrades,’ supporting the struggle of the CPI (Maoist) in the tribal areas, was published by a mainstream, corporate-controlled Indian magazine, Outlook. How would that be possible if India were just a ‘fake’ democracy? By way of a comparison, across the border in Sri Lanka, the March issue of Himal Southasian was seized by customs on account of an article of mine, despite the fact that I have always been sharply critical of the insurgencies of the LTTE and JVP, and cannot by any stretch of the imagination be described as sympathetic to terrorism or violence. Earlier editions of Himal with articles by writers critical of both the government and the LTTE have suffered the same fate. My articles have been turned down by one newspaper after another in Sri Lanka, and I do not blame their editors and owners: so many journalists, editors and owners who have been critical of the regime in power have been jailed, killed or disappeared, even if they, too, had been critical of the LTTE.
Indeed, Arundhati herself had mentioned the plight of journalists in Sri Lanka in an article she wrote around a year ago, warning that ‘genocide waits to happen’. She wrote eloquently about the civilians trapped in the war zone being bombed and shelled indiscriminately by government forces, but failed to mention that the LTTE was holding these same civilians hostage and shooting them if they tried to escape, using them as human shields from behind which they fired at government forces, forcing civilians to build bunds under enemy fire, putting guns into the hands of children and sending them to the front line. ‘Genocide’ has a precise legal meaning that revolves crucially around intent (Article 6 of the Rome Statute of the ICC states, ‘For the purpose of this Statute, “genocide” means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group’, etc.), and it was not on the agenda in Sri Lanka. What both sides were perpetrating were heinous war crimes, and if those of us who were anguished about that situation had been able to prevail on both sides to stop committing those crimes, thousands of civilian lives could have been saved. But making exaggerated and one-sided claims did not help.
Similarly, if India is already a ‘fake democracy’, what would we call it if Arundhati and the editors and owners of Outlook were arrested and sentenced to rigorous imprisonment for twenty years for publishing that article? No one can seriously deny that India’s democracy is terribly flawed. Not only are existing legal and constitutional rights of citizens constantly violated, but draconian laws like AFSPA, against which Irom Sharmila has waged a heroic ten-year fast, actually provide legal sanction for such crimes. They are cancerous tumours on the body politic, and unless and until they are excised, it is impossible to talk of a healthy democracy. And yet, characterising India’s democracy as ‘fake’ belittles the efforts of millions of grassroots activists using constitutional means to struggle for the rights of women, children, workers, dalits, adivasis and minority communities, to fight for justice without killing or wounding anyone. It demeans the efforts of Arundhati’s former comrades in the NBA. And it misunderstands democracy as a gift of the ruling class, whereas it can only be won by unremitting struggle.
If writing off Indian democracy as fake is intended to legitimise armed struggle against the state, that has dangerous potential to strengthen authoritarianism. Take the tactic of enforcing election boycotts by armed movements. There is no obligation to vote, so people who do not think it is worth supporting any candidate have the option of not voting, or spoiling their ballot papers if they want to register a stronger protest. But enforcing a boycott with threats of violence takes away yet one more small liberty, and results in a setback for any struggle for rights. It can also result in counter-finality for the agent enforcing the boycott. In the 2005 presidential election in Sri Lanka, the LTTE leadership enforced an election boycott in the areas they controlled, leading to the victory of Mahinda Rajapaksa who then proceeded to wipe them out. Between 1994 and 2005, a war-weary Sri Lankan population under a relatively democratic government had been willing to concede the democratic rights and freedoms demanded by Tamils, but the LTTE leadership held out for a separate totalitarian Tamil state. Along with the crimes against Tamil civilians mentioned above and many others, it was their own acts which led to their destruction.
Enforcing bandhs by threatening violence is another tactic that takes away the rights of working people rather than expanding them. In a report sympathetic to the CPI (Maoist), Gautam Navlakha tells us that the Maoists beheaded CITU trade union leader Thomas Munda of Kulta Iron Works for defying their bandh call. And this is not the only instance of the CPI (Maoist)’s authoritarian methods (see the interview with a former Maoist area commander in Tehelka). Beheading trade unionists and killing dissident tribals is surely not the way to build a genuine as opposed to fake democracy!
In order to justify describing India as a ‘fake democracy’, two things would be required. One is to show that all or most of the thousands of struggles for democratic rights taking place every day and involving lakhs of people (including adivasis) have failed. But this is simply not true. Many battles fail, but many succeed. That is the nature of the struggle for democracy: you win some battles, lose others, learn from your failures and carry on. The other requirement would be to explain what is meant by ‘genuine democracy’. Is it the regime in the areas controlled by the CPI (Maoist), where all mass organisations are dominated by the party and dissidents are eliminated? Or the repressive and profoundly authoritarian regimes that were installed by the revolutions of the 20th century? Can Arundhati point to any ‘genuine democracy’, and if not, what does it mean to call Indian democracy ‘fake’? Again, this exaggerates the failure of democracy in India and fails to tell the other side of the story: the failure of violent revolutions to establish anything better.
The God of Small Things is a brilliant novel that well deserved the Booker Prize, but non-fiction writing demands something different. The fiction writer creates a world in her head, whereas the non-fiction writer has to relate to the world outside her head, and do a considerable amount of background research in order to get it right. In a moment of candour, during an interview in 2007, Arundhati admitted that she finds this irksome: “I feel very imprisoned by facts, by having to get it right,’ she said. But unless socialists are willing to ‘look reality in the face’, that is, take ‘facts’ more seriously, they will be building a movement founded on myths.
Posted in Debates, Politics, Violence-Conflict | Tags: Arundhati Roy, CPI (Maoists),democracy, LTTE, Rohini Hensman, sri lanka.
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Re: The Red Menace
if maoists are moving around in 300 + squads why the ******* hell is airpower use being repeatedly shot down, hain?
when rebels do small unit tactics , you keep it low key yourself and call it an insurgency/ low intensity conflict yada yada.
but once they get emboldened enough to move around in very large groups, you need to get serious and show why exactly you *are* the State.
frankly speaking letting a totally tired company get caught out in a jungle for hours by a much larger force and denying them airpower support in the name of "collateral damage " is bullshit. what then is the F******* point of trying to enforce your will in hostile and unfamiliar territory without giving proper backup to your boys.
And since we *are* buying so much trash from around the world anyway , why not buy some useful trash as well.
Our dear buddy Israel has made a lot of progress in limited blast radius weapons. the blast radius of such weapons gives a lot of confidence in keeping collateral damage low.
why not fast track a purchase of such weapons till something indigenous comes online, specifically for the maoists.
when rebels do small unit tactics , you keep it low key yourself and call it an insurgency/ low intensity conflict yada yada.
but once they get emboldened enough to move around in very large groups, you need to get serious and show why exactly you *are* the State.
frankly speaking letting a totally tired company get caught out in a jungle for hours by a much larger force and denying them airpower support in the name of "collateral damage " is bullshit. what then is the F******* point of trying to enforce your will in hostile and unfamiliar territory without giving proper backup to your boys.
And since we *are* buying so much trash from around the world anyway , why not buy some useful trash as well.
Our dear buddy Israel has made a lot of progress in limited blast radius weapons. the blast radius of such weapons gives a lot of confidence in keeping collateral damage low.
why not fast track a purchase of such weapons till something indigenous comes online, specifically for the maoists.
Re: The Red Menace
I mentioned in it a different context. Even today Christianity is only around 10% of SK's population, Buddhists and Muslims comfortably outnumber them, yet its absurd to think of US working covertly to destabilize South Korea.Abhi_G wrote:Sorry to butt in and possibly this is way OT, but South Korea has been facing massive conversions to Christianity for quite sometime. And I am quite aware of the presence of South Korean missionaries in the fringes of South Kolkata.Viv S wrote: With an atheistic South Korea,
Re: The Red Menace
I found the most disappointing reaction the CRPF's, which seems to be reluctant to carry on. Had it been the Army, every man would have been baying for blood, wanting to settle the score.D Roy wrote:if maoists are moving around in 300 + squads why the ******* hell is airpower use being repeatedly shot down, hain?
when rebels do small unit tactics , you keep it low key yourself and call it an insurgency/ low intensity conflict yada yada.
but once they get emboldened enough to move around in very large groups, you need to get serious and show why exactly you *are* the State.
frankly speaking letting a totally tired company get caught out in a jungle for hours by a much larger force and denying them airpower support in the name of "collateral damage " is bullshit. what then is the F******* point of trying to enforce your will in hostile and unfamiliar territory without giving proper backup to your boys.
Last edited by Viv S on 12 Apr 2010 22:58, edited 1 time in total.
Re: The Red Menace
D Roy,D Roy wrote:if maoists are moving around in 300 + squads why the ******* hell is airpower use being repeatedly shot down, hain?
when rebels do small unit tactics , you keep it low key yourself and call it an insurgency/ low intensity conflict yada yada.
but once they get emboldened enough to move around in very large groups, you need to get serious and show why exactly you *are* the State.
frankly speaking letting a totally tired company get caught out in a jungle for hours by a much larger force and denying them airpower support in the name of "collateral damage " is bullshit. what then is the F******* point of trying to enforce your will in hostile and unfamiliar territory without giving proper backup to your boys.
And since we *are* buying so much trash from around the world anyway , why not buy some useful trash as well.
Our dear buddy Israel has made a lot of progress in limited blast radius weapons. the blast radius of such weapons gives a lot of confidence in keeping collateral damage low.
why not fast track a purchase of such weapons till something indigenous comes online, specifically for the maoists.
My humble 2 cents on this:
*A CRPF company properly trained in light infantry / jungle warfare tactics would have been able to, if not defeat the attacking rebels, at least extricate itself from the zone fighting all the way.
*It looks like the fundamental march security imperatives were totally neglected. See posts on the supposed lack of point guards, flank and rear guards. The company leadership must have been totally clueless.
*It is still not clear whether the company in question, the alpha coy, ever underwent jungle warfare training. It is very hard to believe that a company with light infantry / jungle warfare training would have neglected march security and camp security so abysmally.
*I also firmly believe that airpower support is NOT needed and may, from the psychological and media point of view, even be detrimental. Hypothetically speaking say the company in question was from Rashtriya Rifles or Assam Rifles. Do you think the result would have been different?
*A column of march under ambush is a problem that has been plauging military commanders from time immemorial. Check out "Xenophon- March of the Ten Thousand" on Google. That was before Christ! Also check out Braddock's Expedition during the French and Indian Wars in 1750s in continental US. Xenophon is how a march ought to be conducted. Braddock is how a march must not be conducted. Both are instructive.
Best Regards
Fred
Re: The Red Menace
Dear Frederic,
I am fully aware of the importance of scouts and ambushes in the history of warfare. I have already made several posts ( like a lot of other people here) about the need for better training, dismounted patrols, advance scouts ( both human as well as small UAVs) , may be the use of motorbikes in a similar fashion to the naxals etc. All that is very nice and *must* be done. but it still does not obviate the need for airpower given the number of people we are sending in and the task at hand.
single mongol tumans often took out much larger cavalry forces simply because they stayed fresher than their opponents who were either not as hardy or had simply made the foolish mistake of trying to chase the mongol forces down.
when the mongols were not outnumbered ( like from the mid 13 the century) they just annihilated their enemies even more easily.
if you send in people to *police* an area full of people who are hardened and probably more tenacious ( given their tribal backgrounds) and were in this case anyways fresher because they had not done a 4 day patrol, you are asking for trouble.
when was the last time a company of the RR faced 450 well armed jihadis in a thick forest in J&K hain.
I will bet my last dollar if the Army where involved in this fight and the naxals were still moving around in droves of 300+ we would see Airpower use in the form of helos.
In Sri Lanka the IA specifically flew in T-72s ( yes I know a lot of people will jump up and down and say - did that help , did that really help etc etc) and also used the nice cold war era poster boy Hind ( Mi-25/35 )
( hey I can just see two guys pop up and say- the LTTE was way better armed etc etc).
now given that our boys are not really going to be any fresher given the numbers that are being deployed and the area they are being asked to "dominate", I think we need to seriously start thinking about hot clearing aerial strikes in dangerous situations.
And use the new munitions that are being developed around the world.
I am fully aware of the importance of scouts and ambushes in the history of warfare. I have already made several posts ( like a lot of other people here) about the need for better training, dismounted patrols, advance scouts ( both human as well as small UAVs) , may be the use of motorbikes in a similar fashion to the naxals etc. All that is very nice and *must* be done. but it still does not obviate the need for airpower given the number of people we are sending in and the task at hand.
single mongol tumans often took out much larger cavalry forces simply because they stayed fresher than their opponents who were either not as hardy or had simply made the foolish mistake of trying to chase the mongol forces down.
when the mongols were not outnumbered ( like from the mid 13 the century) they just annihilated their enemies even more easily.
if you send in people to *police* an area full of people who are hardened and probably more tenacious ( given their tribal backgrounds) and were in this case anyways fresher because they had not done a 4 day patrol, you are asking for trouble.
when was the last time a company of the RR faced 450 well armed jihadis in a thick forest in J&K hain.
I will bet my last dollar if the Army where involved in this fight and the naxals were still moving around in droves of 300+ we would see Airpower use in the form of helos.
In Sri Lanka the IA specifically flew in T-72s ( yes I know a lot of people will jump up and down and say - did that help , did that really help etc etc) and also used the nice cold war era poster boy Hind ( Mi-25/35 )
( hey I can just see two guys pop up and say- the LTTE was way better armed etc etc).
now given that our boys are not really going to be any fresher given the numbers that are being deployed and the area they are being asked to "dominate", I think we need to seriously start thinking about hot clearing aerial strikes in dangerous situations.
And use the new munitions that are being developed around the world.
Re: The Red Menace
In peacekeeping operations in the congo our forces are *known* for their judicious use of gunships.
During operation Sarp Vinaash ( Hill kaka) helos were used.
So the real reasons why we are dithering on using *airpower* is because the maoist are after all *our own people*.
And after all they have been nice enough to offer "compensation" to the family of those bereaved.
get real, they are enemies of the state who will not allow any development to happen since they now thrive on what can only be termed-
"poverty p*orn".
It goes like this " there was no road and then there were maoists", " now there are maoists so then there will be no road".
BTW there is also the equally powerful "gujarat do hazaar do p*orn industry" , but then.. some other time.
During operation Sarp Vinaash ( Hill kaka) helos were used.
So the real reasons why we are dithering on using *airpower* is because the maoist are after all *our own people*.
And after all they have been nice enough to offer "compensation" to the family of those bereaved.
get real, they are enemies of the state who will not allow any development to happen since they now thrive on what can only be termed-
"poverty p*orn".
It goes like this " there was no road and then there were maoists", " now there are maoists so then there will be no road".
BTW there is also the equally powerful "gujarat do hazaar do p*orn industry" , but then.. some other time.
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brihaspati
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Re: The Red Menace
The IA is better kept out of this. It is an excellent opportunity to raise a flexible, modern but smaller force that can perform "black ops" if necessary. They can be equipped with air-power without raising the hackles of everyone. In fact what and how they are being equipped need not at all be in the public domain. But train them to operate both inside and outside - something the IA has problems about. This force should be raised with a clear and firm understanding that they will perform wherever they are required, in the world. That way all this embarassment and concern from the IA can be bypassed.
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Prem Kumar
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Re: The Red Menace
Fully agree with D Roy here. The sheer numbers involved here means that our typical "low intensity conflict" troops-to-insurgents ratio will not be practical. If we use a 1:10 ratio (lower than that in Kashmir), we are looking at committing 150000 troops, that too across a huge geographical area (which makes the thinned out sections more vulnerable to attack).
The day after the Dantewada incident, there was a report of a 300 strong Maoist group attacking a CRPF camp. They dispersed after retaliatory fire. This has become a completely low-risk affair for the them. Best case scenario: they overrun the camp, kill scores and loot weapons. Worst case scenario: they suffer a couple of casualties, run back into the jungles, safe in the knowledge that there will be no hot pursuit.
Imagine the end result of the above attack if the CRPF camp radios helicopter air support. We could have taken out a couple of hundred of those b@stards. With minimal collateral damage.
Yes - airpower has the *potential* to cause collateral damage - if used like a hammer. Not if used like a scalpel. While raiding a village to flush out Maoists, dont call in air support. When you have intelligence of Maoist movement through a jungle with very little inhabitation, call in air support and lay waiting in ambush for them to come into a clearing. The Maoists will then truly become the hunted
We should battle this on our terms and decide when *we* want to go up the escalation ladder. Not be reactive, like we are now.
The day after the Dantewada incident, there was a report of a 300 strong Maoist group attacking a CRPF camp. They dispersed after retaliatory fire. This has become a completely low-risk affair for the them. Best case scenario: they overrun the camp, kill scores and loot weapons. Worst case scenario: they suffer a couple of casualties, run back into the jungles, safe in the knowledge that there will be no hot pursuit.
Imagine the end result of the above attack if the CRPF camp radios helicopter air support. We could have taken out a couple of hundred of those b@stards. With minimal collateral damage.
Yes - airpower has the *potential* to cause collateral damage - if used like a hammer. Not if used like a scalpel. While raiding a village to flush out Maoists, dont call in air support. When you have intelligence of Maoist movement through a jungle with very little inhabitation, call in air support and lay waiting in ambush for them to come into a clearing. The Maoists will then truly become the hunted
We should battle this on our terms and decide when *we* want to go up the escalation ladder. Not be reactive, like we are now.
Re: The Red Menace
Thank You God.
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Prem Kumar
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Re: The Red Menace
Good article by Praveen Swami - questioning the effectiveness of the "hearts & minds strategy":
For a review of counter-insurgency doctrine
For a review of counter-insurgency doctrine
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joshvajohn
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Re: The Red Menace
It is essential for Indian government to establish systematic monitoring of the following:
1. Movement of Vehicles - all the registered vehicles should be in the computer with full details of addresses and every border crossing of states should be monitored not only by the state government but also by the central goverment in order to stop movement of arms through these vehiclesin large quantities. There should be a department to monitor and follow certain vehicles which are with the help of local people and of politicians and even some industries make a free movement. But now need to be checked by the police.
Maoists buy arms from B'desh, Myanmar, Nepal
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 776213.cms
2. Movement of Money - This goes from our own folks. Maoists get their money either as donation or as blackmails from the rich ones. It is essential to curb some foreign banks operating within India in transferring large sums. Particularly I think secret accounts such as Swiss banks accounts could have been used by these groups to pay for their arms and to the dealers. Unless government keeps a monitoring system of how Indian money is transferred outside and from outside it comes inside it is very difficult to control certain movements of money.
http://www.dnaindia.com/opinion/editori ... ts_1370658
The Maoist empire: Rs 1,500cr and counting
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 783114.cms
http://www.eurasiareview.com/2010/04/33 ... aoist.html
3. Movement of Villagers and personnel - It is essential to have a clear list of Maoists and so ask those villagers to have their id card so that they can be easily be distinguished and not targeted by the armd police. This will also help the police to get the maoists easily with or without their id card. Possibly a computerised network would help the police to easily identify the individuals. Specially finger print technology developed by US and UK would help also to trace these Maoists people.
http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll ... 19957/1033
4. Movement of foreigners in those regions - This is an important activity to monitor. One of the things that the state and central government lost is the support of the villagers and informers near to the Maoists activities. It is essential to have not only paid personnel to monitor and even the volunteers to monitor the activities of foreigners in these regions. It is essential to use such local people to get these information about them and make sure that these informers are protected.
5. Movement of information - leaking information from the police and other agencies to Maoists. It is essential to make sure that within our systems the informants are identified and are transferred or dismissed so that there is no prior information is available to the Maoists about the activities of polices and CRPF.
Two top Maoist leaders plotted Dantewada massacre
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 782677.cms
Such kind of activities would also help cities in India to be protected from these kind of attacks in future.
1. Movement of Vehicles - all the registered vehicles should be in the computer with full details of addresses and every border crossing of states should be monitored not only by the state government but also by the central goverment in order to stop movement of arms through these vehiclesin large quantities. There should be a department to monitor and follow certain vehicles which are with the help of local people and of politicians and even some industries make a free movement. But now need to be checked by the police.
Maoists buy arms from B'desh, Myanmar, Nepal
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 776213.cms
2. Movement of Money - This goes from our own folks. Maoists get their money either as donation or as blackmails from the rich ones. It is essential to curb some foreign banks operating within India in transferring large sums. Particularly I think secret accounts such as Swiss banks accounts could have been used by these groups to pay for their arms and to the dealers. Unless government keeps a monitoring system of how Indian money is transferred outside and from outside it comes inside it is very difficult to control certain movements of money.
http://www.dnaindia.com/opinion/editori ... ts_1370658
The Maoist empire: Rs 1,500cr and counting
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home ... 783114.cms
http://www.eurasiareview.com/2010/04/33 ... aoist.html
3. Movement of Villagers and personnel - It is essential to have a clear list of Maoists and so ask those villagers to have their id card so that they can be easily be distinguished and not targeted by the armd police. This will also help the police to get the maoists easily with or without their id card. Possibly a computerised network would help the police to easily identify the individuals. Specially finger print technology developed by US and UK would help also to trace these Maoists people.
http://www.thenational.ae/apps/pbcs.dll ... 19957/1033
4. Movement of foreigners in those regions - This is an important activity to monitor. One of the things that the state and central government lost is the support of the villagers and informers near to the Maoists activities. It is essential to have not only paid personnel to monitor and even the volunteers to monitor the activities of foreigners in these regions. It is essential to use such local people to get these information about them and make sure that these informers are protected.
5. Movement of information - leaking information from the police and other agencies to Maoists. It is essential to make sure that within our systems the informants are identified and are transferred or dismissed so that there is no prior information is available to the Maoists about the activities of polices and CRPF.
Two top Maoist leaders plotted Dantewada massacre
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 782677.cms
Such kind of activities would also help cities in India to be protected from these kind of attacks in future.
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Hari Seldon
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- Location: University of Trantor
Re: The Red Menace
Viv S,
kindly get your facts straight. TIA.
Jai ho and have a nice day.
kindly get your facts straight. TIA.
Wrong. They're over a quarter of oko's popn, some estimates put them at 40% - this when in the 60s, their numbers were in the single digit percentages.Even today Christianity is only around 10% of SK's population,
'and muslims' eh? There're a grand total of 30,000 muslims, mostly soko converts who came in contact with Turkish troops during WWII. Buddhists are well below half the popn. Well below.Buddhists and Muslims comfortably outnumber them
Re objective facts, context is largely superfluous. imvho. In what context can the sun rise in the west on planet Earth, say?I mentioned in it a different context.
I'm sure it is. Your numbers are saying so after all.yet its absurd to think of US working covertly to destabilize South Korea.
Jai ho and have a nice day.
Re: The Red Menace
Here is an article full of grapevine talk but from MJA. Again for those who cannot go beyond "crystal-clear-evidence" this could be another CT. However, this is not from BR members
Senapati route to heroism
Rao, a bit like his protege Manmohan Singh, was a prime minister wrought by fate; he had, in fact, retired because of a heart condition and sent his impressive library to Hyderabad, where he intended to spend his time. He did not contest the elections for the 1991 Parliament that made him prime minister. The younger Congress leaders, consequently, tended to underestimate him. Rao surprised the political class, and shocked the victim, by accepting Chidambaram's resignation. The scar never quite healed; Chidambaram eventually started his own party, and was brought back into the Congress mainstream only by Sonia Gandhi.
India's Home Minister Chidambaram, despite the consistent color of his dark hair, is older and wiser now. He knew there was no chance that Manmohan Singh would accept his pro forma offer to resign over the Dantevada bungle, largely because the prime minister believes in what his home minister is doing. The resignation gesture was not an immediate response. His first reaction was to test whether an alibi - that this was "joint" operation, meaning that the state government was equally culpable - would work. It did not, because there are too many retired and respected police officers and security experts ready to explain and reveal precisely what happened.
The surprise of the week was surely not the endorsement Chidambaram received from his prime minister, but the warm support he got from the BJP. There have been some cross-party surprises of late. Publicly the Congress made a colossal fuss when Amitabh Bachchan was condemned as evil because he was seen with Narendra Modi. Away from the limelight, the prime minister endorsed Modi as head of the working group on consumer affairs at a chief ministers' meeting. Then Goa's Congress Chief Minister Digamber Kamat, after this CMs' conference, told the world that Narendra Modi was his best friend and he would happily visit Gujarat if invited. Kamat could not have been unaware that his counterpart in Maharashtra, Ashok Chavan, was castigated, at the instigation of Delhi, for what might be called "third-degree contact" with Modi, because he had been civil to Amitabh who had been civil to Modi. Such "first-degree" proximity should be sufficient reason, by publicly declared standards, to remove Kamat, but he is clearly unconcerned. Does he know something that we do not? Politicians do not risk their gaddi very easily. Is Congress trying to finesse the new, emerging opposition unity in Parliament, which threatens the passage of the women's reservation bill in the Lok Sabha, by being nice to the pre-eminent lightning rod in the BJP? In the absence of answers, we can at least ask questions.
The BJP's support for Chidambaram, however, is based on ideological strategy rather than tactical requirements. The BJP has never been dubious about its aversion to democratic Marxists, and complete hostility to violent Maoists. The BJP considers Chidambaram the perfect "senapati" in the war against Maoists because the home minister shares its uncomplicated view of Maoists as nothing but cowards and criminals who deserve complete elimination. This is a conviction shared by the prime minister, who has described Naxalites as the greatest threat to India.
Other politicians might hedge: Nitish Kumar believes that Maoists cannot be defeated only by force, Buddhadev Bhattacharya is certain that this cannot be treated as just a law and order matter, and Mani Shankar Aiyar, who heads the committee organizing the Congress' 125th anniversary, is certain that a one-eye policy focusing only on security will be counterproductive. But Chidambaram is a one-eyed man when it comes to Maoists; after all, you cannot take aim with a gun if both your eyes are open.
The Congress has, for the moment, officially rallied around Chidambaram, but there is very clearly a major internal debate that is seeping out of the confines of inner-party curtains. Dantevada might, paradoxically, strengthen a hawkish home minister but it is not going to extinguish the two-eyed view of an admittedly difficult problem.
There is as much uncertainty in the Congress about the contors and consequences of a caste war as there is about a class war. The Congress was splintered during the heated arguments over the Mandal Commission in 1990, and its confusion lost the party UP and Bihar. There is always a price to be paid for irresolution. A strong section of the party is in harmony with the BJP over Maoists, just as many Congressmen agreed with V.P. Singh on Mandal. The left has been weakened within the Congress by the domination of Rao and Manmohan Singh in the last two Congress governments, but it has not disappeared. Scratch Pranab Mukherjee and A.K. Anthony and you will find Jawaharlal Nehru and Indira Gandhi in their blood. Sonia Gandhi has already indicated that she is not going to abandon the Congress left, but remains palpably unsure about the extent to which she can rehabilitate it.
A general purpose warning to Congress Cabinet ministers: Think thrice before offering to resign. You never know when it might be accepted.
- M.J. Akbar is editor of The Sunday Guardian, published from Delhi, and India on Sunday, published from London.
Senapati route to heroism
Rao, a bit like his protege Manmohan Singh, was a prime minister wrought by fate; he had, in fact, retired because of a heart condition and sent his impressive library to Hyderabad, where he intended to spend his time. He did not contest the elections for the 1991 Parliament that made him prime minister. The younger Congress leaders, consequently, tended to underestimate him. Rao surprised the political class, and shocked the victim, by accepting Chidambaram's resignation. The scar never quite healed; Chidambaram eventually started his own party, and was brought back into the Congress mainstream only by Sonia Gandhi.
India's Home Minister Chidambaram, despite the consistent color of his dark hair, is older and wiser now. He knew there was no chance that Manmohan Singh would accept his pro forma offer to resign over the Dantevada bungle, largely because the prime minister believes in what his home minister is doing. The resignation gesture was not an immediate response. His first reaction was to test whether an alibi - that this was "joint" operation, meaning that the state government was equally culpable - would work. It did not, because there are too many retired and respected police officers and security experts ready to explain and reveal precisely what happened.
The surprise of the week was surely not the endorsement Chidambaram received from his prime minister, but the warm support he got from the BJP. There have been some cross-party surprises of late. Publicly the Congress made a colossal fuss when Amitabh Bachchan was condemned as evil because he was seen with Narendra Modi. Away from the limelight, the prime minister endorsed Modi as head of the working group on consumer affairs at a chief ministers' meeting. Then Goa's Congress Chief Minister Digamber Kamat, after this CMs' conference, told the world that Narendra Modi was his best friend and he would happily visit Gujarat if invited. Kamat could not have been unaware that his counterpart in Maharashtra, Ashok Chavan, was castigated, at the instigation of Delhi, for what might be called "third-degree contact" with Modi, because he had been civil to Amitabh who had been civil to Modi. Such "first-degree" proximity should be sufficient reason, by publicly declared standards, to remove Kamat, but he is clearly unconcerned. Does he know something that we do not? Politicians do not risk their gaddi very easily. Is Congress trying to finesse the new, emerging opposition unity in Parliament, which threatens the passage of the women's reservation bill in the Lok Sabha, by being nice to the pre-eminent lightning rod in the BJP? In the absence of answers, we can at least ask questions.
The BJP's support for Chidambaram, however, is based on ideological strategy rather than tactical requirements. The BJP has never been dubious about its aversion to democratic Marxists, and complete hostility to violent Maoists. The BJP considers Chidambaram the perfect "senapati" in the war against Maoists because the home minister shares its uncomplicated view of Maoists as nothing but cowards and criminals who deserve complete elimination. This is a conviction shared by the prime minister, who has described Naxalites as the greatest threat to India.
Other politicians might hedge: Nitish Kumar believes that Maoists cannot be defeated only by force, Buddhadev Bhattacharya is certain that this cannot be treated as just a law and order matter, and Mani Shankar Aiyar, who heads the committee organizing the Congress' 125th anniversary, is certain that a one-eye policy focusing only on security will be counterproductive. But Chidambaram is a one-eyed man when it comes to Maoists; after all, you cannot take aim with a gun if both your eyes are open.
The Congress has, for the moment, officially rallied around Chidambaram, but there is very clearly a major internal debate that is seeping out of the confines of inner-party curtains. Dantevada might, paradoxically, strengthen a hawkish home minister but it is not going to extinguish the two-eyed view of an admittedly difficult problem.
There is as much uncertainty in the Congress about the contors and consequences of a caste war as there is about a class war. The Congress was splintered during the heated arguments over the Mandal Commission in 1990, and its confusion lost the party UP and Bihar. There is always a price to be paid for irresolution. A strong section of the party is in harmony with the BJP over Maoists, just as many Congressmen agreed with V.P. Singh on Mandal. The left has been weakened within the Congress by the domination of Rao and Manmohan Singh in the last two Congress governments, but it has not disappeared. Scratch Pranab Mukherjee and A.K. Anthony and you will find Jawaharlal Nehru and Indira Gandhi in their blood. Sonia Gandhi has already indicated that she is not going to abandon the Congress left, but remains palpably unsure about the extent to which she can rehabilitate it.
A general purpose warning to Congress Cabinet ministers: Think thrice before offering to resign. You never know when it might be accepted.
- M.J. Akbar is editor of The Sunday Guardian, published from Delhi, and India on Sunday, published from London.
Re: The Red Menace
CT?Muppalla wrote:Here is an article full of grapevine talk but from MJA. Again for those who cannot go beyond "crystal-clear-evidence" this could be another CT. However, this is not from BR members
It all comes down to who Sonia Gandhi backs. And unless there's been a tectonic shift in power equations, Dr. Manmohan Singh is her man. And between the two of them, Chidambaram will have all the support he needs. The only other heavy weights, AK Antony and Pranab Mukherjee, know which way the wind is blowing. With the PM, Gandhi as well as the main opposition party backing the HM, the writing's on the wall.There is as much uncertainty in the Congress about the contors and consequences of a caste war as there is about a class war. The Congress was splintered during the heated arguments over the Mandal Commission in 1990, and its confusion lost the party UP and Bihar. There is always a price to be paid for irresolution. A strong section of the party is in harmony with the BJP over Maoists, just as many Congressmen agreed with V.P. Singh on Mandal. The left has been weakened within the Congress by the domination of Rao and Manmohan Singh in the last two Congress governments, but it has not disappeared. Scratch Pranab Mukherjee and A.K. Anthony and you will find Jawaharlal Nehru and Indira Gandhi in their blood. Sonia Gandhi has already indicated that she is not going to abandon the Congress left, but remains palpably unsure about the extent to which she can rehabilitate it.
Re: The Red Menace
Hari, why oh why? T'was was going on wonderfully 
Some info on 'overground' and jailed naxalawadis
Some info on 'overground' and jailed naxalawadis
Spreading info on the netCampus recruitment?
The fresh uproar at the Jawaharlal Nehru University on the Naxalism issue ( celebrating the massacre of CRPF men ) has security officials concerned about the Maoists' urban propaganda. "The kind of support Naxals get from educational institutions can not happen in a small time. It's a two-pronged strategy of the Naxals, while they have dominated lands in the interiors of the country, in metro cities they have been carrying out a kind of information campaign through their ideologues," said a senior Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) official on condition of anonymity.
The IB says it has already alerted the government and other agencies about the new age information campaign and propaganda of the Naxals. Prakash Singh , former Director General of Border Security Force (BSF) and a renowned expert on internal security, said, "There are so called intellectuals placed in urban centres and they have quietly been carrying out the propaganda with support from various sections of the society," he said.
He further added, "In fact much of the documentation on Naxals takes place in cities and metros." He also referred to the several warnings by Naxal leader Koteshwar Rao that the war would very soon be fought in urban India.
And some info on our Ghandy.Naxals on the Net
Sources in the IB said on condition of anonymity that Maoist sympathisers are trying to publish materials written by top Naxal leaders and ideologues on the Internet and even in magazines. "You just need to do a random check on the Net and you would get everything from poetry to articles written by Naxal leaders," said a senior IB official.
He also informed about the various campaigns Naxals and their ideologues have carried out in the capital. "Whenever any big operation related to Naxals happens you would find a certain level of activity on the Internet. In fact there are thousands of groups and sites operating through social networking units like Orkut and Facebook. There are dedicated experts and people with inclination towards the Naxal movement who carry out such information campaigns and propagandas," he said.
http://www.mid-day.com/news/2010/apr/13 ... dygiri.htmMaking of a Maoist
Ghandy, arrested on September 20 last year, has been lodged in Tihar jail here in judicial custody. He was accused of trying to set up a network of CPI (Maoist) here. The police invoked provisions of stringent Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act besides booking him for various offences under IPC relating to cheating, forgery and impersonation.
Ghandy hails from a wealthy Khoja-Parsi family in Mumbai. His father was a senior finance executive in Glaxo. He did his schooling from Doon School, where he was Congress leader, Sanjay Gandhi's classmate. He went to St. Xavier's College, Mumbai and did his chartered accountancy from London.
Ghandy, arrested on September 20 last year, has been lodged in Tihar jail in the capital in judicial custody. According to sources, Ghandy mostly reads and writes and keeps to himself, which has generated a lot of curiosity among fellow inmates. Whenever they get a chance, other prisoners try to interact with Ghandy and ask him about his experiences. Reports also suggest that several petty criminals are quite inspired by his Maoist philosophy and are highly influenced by him.
Re: The Red Menace
Loksatta's Jayaprakash Narayan attack Maoism. Unlike other people, he attacks the ideology itself. It is in Telugu.
Just look at the Naxal ideologue VaravaraRao's face when JP attacks Maoism .
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Just look at the Naxal ideologue VaravaraRao's face when JP attacks Maoism .
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Re: The Red Menace
The Naxal crisis has one silver lining in the cloud of blood its left behind,in that the need for a new COIN strategy and assets to pursue that strategy.The use of attack helos and COIN aircraft like Tucanos,etc. would be invaluable also for the N-East.This has been a major shortcoming in our air inventory and the need has now been udnerlined.
Re: The Red Menace
Chhattisgarh Police for better anti-landmine vehicles
http://samaylive.com/english/regional/c ... 61012.html
http://samaylive.com/english/regional/c ... 61012.html
Raipur: As Chhattisgarh police officers analyse what went wrong leading to the deadly Naxal attack in Dantewada, one of their demands is better anti-landmine vehicles to safeguard the personnel."An anti-landmine vehicle can withstand the impact of an explosion up to a certain limit after which it can get damaged. It seems the Naxals have identified its capacity and are targeting them," a senior police officer told.
In the past five years there have been at least six instances when the Maoists have damaged anti-landmine vehicles in blasts. This includes the 2006 incident in Gangalur village of Bastar area when 24 jawans were killed.
Whenever the Naxals target the vehicle, it does not get destroyed completely but certain portions are damaged causing serious injuries to the jawans sitting inside it, they said.
Re: The Red Menace
Here a deeper exploration of the possible disconnect between the dynasty and PC.
Dealing With Maoists: MMS-Sonia Rift?
That there are differences in the Congress party over how to handle the Maoist/Naxal insurgency is not a secret. But the recent flurry of public statements and press-releases have Delhi's gossip circles abuzz about how the PM and the home minister on the one hand and the Congress President Sonia Gandhi and her son, Congress General Secretary Rahul Gandhi, on the other, are not on the same page regarding the strategy to be adopted against the Maoists/Naxals. That the BJP firmly backed the home minister adds further grist to the mills.
Exhibit 1: No statements from Gandhis
As R. Jagannathan put it in the DNA:
Given the extremely secretive nature of the Manmohan Singh-Sonia-Rahul Gandhi interface, it is not possible to conclusively prove this, but it is reasonable to presume that Sonia is not actively backing the government in its anti-Maoist campaign.
We certainly haven’t heard a single Sonia statement on Maoism that backs the official stand of her government. At best we have had non-descript statements deploring violence — something similar to what the human-rightswallahs mumble when confronted with the latest Maoist atrocities. In her last statement before the Jharkhand polls, Sonia said “there is no place for violence in a democracy” — a motherhood statement at best. Her son Rahul blamed non-Congress governments for the Maoist violence, neatly deflecting the issue. More here http://www.dnaindia.com/opinion/main-ar ... nt_1368625 .
Exhibit 2: Controversy over public statements by the service chiefs
Take the recent controversy over whether or not the Army and Air Force chiefs should be making public statements (or airing personal views (http://www.dnaindia.com/opinion/main-ar ... nt_1368625)) about the advisability or otherwise of using the defence forces in anti-insurgency operations against the Maoists.
For instance, as a well-argued blog-post points out:
All decisions related to employment of security forces — whether internally or externally — are political decisions, taken after inputs of all government agencies and executed by the security forces of the State. When service chiefs speak out of turn publicly — even unintentionally — they sway public opinion and constrain the government in its decision making. Thus, it is often considered imprudent for the service chiefs to express themselves publicly and unduly influence the political decision-making process of the government.
Under Mr. Antony’s watch as the Defence Minister — starting from the Pay commission fracas, one-rank-one-pension issue, and recently the Sukhna land controversy — the civil-military relations in the country have come under a great strain. It must be said that Mr. Antony seems to be singularly incapable of maintaining this delicate balance of civil-military relations. Mr. Antony has no choice now but to read out the riot act to the service chiefs so that these mistakes are not repeated. More here http://pragmatic.nationalinterest.in/20 ... ust-speak/ .
However, in Byzantine Delhi, conspiracy theorists point out that the very fact that such statements from the service chiefs have been made -- and particularly that they have not been one-off occurrences but are being repeated -- means that they have the go-ahead from civilian authority (read Defence Minister).
The Defence Minister is of course considered a Gandhi family loyalist.
Exhibit 3: The Home Ministry Statements
Earlier, the army chief's statement that "internal deficiencies, which may be in their training or some other things" had led to the Dantewada massacre was joined issue with by the home minister and his ministry. While the home minister said, "please do not be disrespectful to the jawans. Please do not be disrespectful to our forces", his ministry came out with a release saying, "The Army has trained 10 Battalions of CRPF, 10 Battalions of BSF and 5 Battalions of ITBP prior to their induction in naxal-affected States.
Exhibit 4: The Cabinet Secretary's Note
Cabinet Secretary K M Chandrashekhar is said to have written to all Ministers and Secretaries on Saturday making it clear that only the Home Ministry would speak on internal security issues as it is the nodal ministry (http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?679290). Not that it stopped the IAF chief from once again expressing his "personal views" today (http://news.outlookindia.com/item.aspx?679240).
http://blogs.outlookindia.com/default.a ... 0&pid=2230
Re: The Red Menace
Right, I got those figures wrong. So SK is partly Christian partly Atheist.Hari Seldon wrote:Viv S,
kindly get your facts straight. TIA.
Wrong. They're over a quarter of oko's popn, some estimates put them at 40% - this when in the 60s, their numbers were in the single digit percentages. 'and muslims' eh? There're a grand total of 30,000 muslims, mostly soko converts who came in contact with Turkish troops during WWII. Buddhists are well below half the popn. Well below.
Huh? Well the (admitted incorrect) figures were to support a observation, that still remains true, South Korea's Christian population notwithstanding. Unless you too believe evangelist puppeteers are calling the shots behind-the-scenes?Re objective facts, context is largely superfluous. imvho. In what context can the sun rise in the west on planet Earth, say? yet its absurd to think of US working covertly to destabilize South Korea.
I'm sure it is. Your numbers are saying so after all.
Jai ho and have a nice day.
Jai ho and good day to you as well.