The Curious Case of Daood Gilani alias David Headley & co

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Apr 2010 03:14

Google Cache:

India to get Headley access in May

Lets see how it unfolds or develops.

Extradiation treaty has some meaning more than the local laws. I think the US forgot that and made the plea bargain and are trying to spin the mistake as local laws are more important. And some Indian media is toeing the US line.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 06 Apr 2010 06:11

^^^^

Not so fast, big bad USA ... dragging its feet and what not... while ..
Foolproof chargesheet against Headley

NEW DELHI: The chargesheet to be filed by the Indian agencies against Lashkar-e-Toiba operative David Coleman Headley in the 26/11 case will cite not only his terror reconnaissance trips but also have definitive evidence in the form of e-mails he had sent from here to his LeT handlers in Pakistan informing them that he was arriving with photographs and clips of the targets surveyed by him.

The NIA, as part of its extensive probe into Headley’s movements and communications during his nine trips to India between 2006 and 2009, unearthed e-mails exchanged by Headley with his Pakistan-based handlers during his stay here. In the e-mails
The chargesheet will also use witness accounts from Headley’s acquaintances here, including film director Mahesh Bhatt’s son Rahul Bhatt and his gym instructor Vilas Warak, to put together evidence of how the American got them to unwittingly take him around the potential terror sites and how he extensively photographed or videographed these sites — the Taj hotel, Trident Hotel and Leopold Cafe — ultimately targeted during the 26/11 attacks.
......
The agencies here are hoping that the information that Headley may share as and when the Indian investigators get access to him would be incorporated in the chargesheet to make a stronger case against him. Once the chargesheet is filed, India will also move the US authorities to seek further details of Headley’s bank accounts and credit card details.

There you have it!

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 06 Apr 2010 07:06

Ambassador Timothy J. Roemer's Statement

http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov/pr040510.html

April 5, 2010

Ambassador Timothy J. Roemer today called on Minister for Home Affairs P. Chidambaram, and issued the following statement: "The U.S. remains committed to full information sharing in our counter terror partnership. I am proud of the truly unprecedented level of cooperation and sharing we have achieved already. As I have said before, while no decision on direct access for India to David Headley has been made, the highest levels of the US government continue to work day and night on this issue. As a former member of the 9/11 Commission, I appreciate the importance of cooperation and information sharing, and of the complexities involved in investigating and bringing to justice those who commit acts of terrorism. I am personally committed to helping us work together to strengthen and deepen our unprecedented cooperation in this area even further."

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 06 Apr 2010 08:02

India's access to Headley “down to logistics”

http://www.hindu.com/2010/04/06/stories ... 151200.htm

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 07 Apr 2010 00:51

abhishek_sharma wrote:India's access to Headley “down to logistics”

http://www.hindu.com/2010/04/06/stories ... 151200.htm

Our focus should be on the information and not the person. There is no point to bring DH to India. He is a spent force what we need to ensure is to find out what he knows and that too quickly before that information becomes useless. If we use all our might and bring him here in say 6 months what is the use all the tracks will be closed by then. Let him be a black guys bit** in some federal prison.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Apr 2010 23:57

R.K. Raghavan writes in Frontline:

The Headley affair

Its a criminal case and not an affair.

Despite some brave words and the equally brave face of the mandarins in the North Block, which houses the Ministry of Home Affairs, India seems nowhere close to talking to Headley, who has cleverly manipulated the law to keep its agencies at bay. The controversial concept of “plea-bargaining”, which is slowly making its appearance in Indian law, has come to his rescue. As a reward for confessing to all his illegal actions, including facilitating the terror attacks in Mumbai in November 2008, he has been spared the death sentence. He has also earned immunity from further legal action, including extradition to India.

As I write this, I understand that a letter from the Home Ministry seeking access to Headley is ready for dispatch to the U.S. Department of Justice. If India succeeds, its security officials may get to interrogate Headley at a U.S. jail, but only after getting permission from the relevant U.S. court and probably only in the presence of agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI).

This tortuous process is demoralising, and India, the affected party, is being made to look comical. “The law is an ass” may be a hackneyed phrase but nowhere is it more appropriate. Here is a diabolical character who suppressed his Pakistani origins, using a Christian name, and prepared the ground so ably for a brutal attack on India’s financial capital. He still manages to dodge India.

It is quite possible that Mohammed Ajmal Amir Iman “Kasab” and company may not have achieved all that they did if Headley had not done the recce with such a professional touch. Headley’s crime is therefore no less punishable than that of Kasab and his teammates. And still, India cannot interrogate Headley and get to know who his Indian accomplices are who continue to hide themselves in the community. If this is not a travesty of justice, what else is?

Criticism against the North Block in the Headley case is, however, not wholly justified. It has done its homework reasonably well and has gone about the task of getting at Headley in a methodical manner. The scepticism arising from the Home Ministry’s failure to secure Headley ignores the fact that the fate of such international investigations rests not on the merits of a case but on a country’s clout among the comity of nations. Let us face it. India does not have the kind of authority in the international community that it assumed it had. The growing feeling is that the U.S. needs Pakistan more than it needs India, and this is why things are not moving as fast as they should in the Headley case. This may not be entirely correct. Nevertheless, Headley is going to be a thorn in India-U.S. relations for quite some time to come.

There may be any number of reasons for the U.S. to be cool towards India’s request. One is the strong suspicion that Headley had worked for one or more U.S. agencies in Pakistan. If this is true, Indian officials’ questioning of Headley, if and when it takes place, will be tightly controlled by the FBI. No questions on his past might be allowed. The Indian National Investigation Agency (NIA) team that is expected to be entrusted with the task could be required to stick scrupulously to his role in 26/11. This could be annoying and it may also whittle down his culpability if he is ever brought to trial in India.

and

The million-dollar question is how much the FBI will cooperate with India in debriefing Rana. There should not normally be any inhibitions because what Rana knows could not embarrass the U.S., but it may not want Pakistan to feel any discomfiture in the context of Rana’s admitted links with the Pakistan Army officers.

Just now, these are only within the realm of speculation. I do not foresee any great reluctance on the part of the FBI to share information with Indian law-enforcement agencies. Any wanton failure to part with information could prove costly. This is because India, in a retaliatory mood, could always ask the U.S. to withdraw the FBI presence from its Embassy in New Delhi. I still recall the difficulty with which it came into India.

This was an act of grace and realism on the part of the Atal Bihari Vajpayee government, way back in 1999-2000. The matter had been hanging fire for decades, and suddenly India agreed to the placement of FBI legal attaches in the Embassy. I believe that the arrangement has been mutually beneficial. This is why the Barack Obama administration should go out of its way to share all that it knows about Headley and Rana.

Was it in the aftermath of Kargil perfidy?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Apr 2010 07:05

India to pursue Headley extradition per Hindustan Times.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 11 Apr 2010 17:14

Brad Goodman wrote:
abhishek_sharma wrote:India's access to Headley “down to logistics”

http://www.hindu.com/2010/04/06/stories ... 151200.htm

Our focus should be on the information and not the person. There is no point to bring DH to India. He is a spent force what we need to ensure is to find out what he knows and that too quickly before that information becomes useless. If we use all our might and bring him here in say 6 months what is the use all the tracks will be closed by then. Let him be a black guys bit** in some federal prison.

So you don't think that punishing him for his crimes that he committed against Indian citizens is needed?

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 11 Apr 2010 19:15

What is FBI doing in New Delhi ? Pursuing Mullah Omar or Laden

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 11 Apr 2010 19:20

India to seek direct access to Headley under 2005 accord

India will seek direct access to Pakistani-American terrorist David Headley under a bilateral agreement signed in 2005 and a communication is being sent to the US to allow its investigators to question him.
The draft letter was being examined by Union home minister P Chidambaram after it was prepared by solicitor general Gopal Subramaniam and officials of National Investigation Agency (NIA),
official sources said here.

The NIA has registered a case against Headley and his Pakistani-Canadian accomplice Tahawwur Rana for allegedly conspiring to wage a war against the country and under other sections of Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act.

The letter would be sent to the US through diplomatic channels for seeking direct access to Headley as he is wanted in India for conspiring with terror outfit Lashker-e-Taiba in carrying out attacks in Mumbai on November 26, 2008 that left over 160 people dead, they said. Headley had pleaded gulity to the charges in a US court at Chicago.

India had signed a Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty (MLAT) with the US initial in 2001 which was further revised in 2005.

...

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 11 Apr 2010 19:52

kenop wrote:India to seek direct access to Headley under 2005 accord
India will seek direct access to Pakistani-American terrorist David Headley under a bilateral agreement signed in 2005 and a communication is being sent to the US to allow its investigators to question him.
The draft letter was being examined by Union home minister P Chidambaram after it was prepared by solicitor general Gopal Subramaniam and officials of National Investigation Agency (NIA),
official sources said here.

The NIA has registered a case against Headley and his Pakistani-Canadian accomplice Tahawwur Rana for allegedly conspiring to wage a war against the country and under other sections of Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act.

The letter would be sent to the US through diplomatic channels for seeking direct access to Headley as he is wanted in India for conspiring with terror outfit Lashker-e-Taiba in carrying out attacks in Mumbai on November 26, 2008 that left over 160 people dead, they said. Headley had pleaded gulity to the charges in a US court at Chicago.

India had signed a Mutual Legal Assistance Treaty (MLAT) with the US initial in 2001 which was further revised in 2005.

...

Now that NIA has registered a case , India can demand access and extradition both, in that order . US can not say that it has no sufficient evidence for extradition to occur. Judge has to examine if plea bargain is to stand on it legs as crime committed by Headley is mostly on Indian soil as per his confessional statement. Even if Judge does not accept plea bargain agreement, Headley is precluded from withdrawing his statement. The test of cooperation with USA and extradition treaty and mutual intelligence sharing and cooperation in investigations etc will be put to litmus test.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 11 Apr 2010 20:03

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 785131.cms

Asked if his interrogation would help India in establishing Pakistan's terror links, Pillai said that was not really hoped.

"We would be interested in knowing the people he met in Pakistan. That will give us some evidence. I don't think we will get much cooperation from Pakistan. That is not really hoped. We can shout and scream, we will have to tackle Pakistan separately. That is a separate issue."

A statement pregnant with hidden meanings. Lets see if child is born alive or still born.

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 11 Apr 2010 20:54

I would again say MMS needs to make most of his 1 Hr 15 min meeting with Obama. What are we going to get by taking DH to mumbai. We need bigger fishes like Saeed or his ISI boss Pasha. What we need is the intel that DH can provide he can happily stay in federal penetentury and be a black guy's bit** We need to ensure Unkil can reign in porki nukes so that no stray nuke show's up in Delhi or Mumbai to fulfill the delusional fantasy of PA & ISI about Gazwa E Hind or khilafat e rashida bull****

sum · Post by **sum** » 11 Apr 2010 21:25

I don't think we will get much cooperation from Pakistan. That is not really hoped. We can shout and scream, we will have to tackle Pakistan separately. That is a separate issue."

Is Mr. Pillai admitting that the dossier-saga was a utter failure?

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 11 Apr 2010 22:00

Headley case: extradition is out, access, info-sharing likely

sum · Post by **sum** » 11 Apr 2010 22:14

What stops MMS from giving a simple diktat to Obama in the meeting:

patience in India is running out. Either give meaningful cooperation( assist us in our goals of neutering the anti-Indian and anti-Amriki jihadis, forget only anti-Indian since US will have a vested interest in keeping them alive) or else gloves are off and be ready to see some action in PoK.

Why is it that it is us who have to accommodate others concerns? When will others start adjusting to our concerns.

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 11 Apr 2010 22:50

merlin wrote: So you don't think that punishing him for his crimes that he committed against Indian citizens is needed?

You can be either relistic or idealistic. I am recommending that we chose the former. Yes we need to punish the people involved in Mumbai carnage but what is the point of chasing foot soilders like Kasab or DH. Yes if we get them we need to dispatch them to hell ASAP. But the larger focus should be to go and stop the source of terror. Muridke is larger than DH and GHQ is bigger than muridke so make the choice.

Obama is a sincere guy if MMS makes sure we get the intel that DH has we can either make our case strong against porkies or least we can plug our defences about any future attack. Our concern needs to be preventing future attacks. We do not have the balls to confront porkies for Saeed and why do we want to waste Obama's time in pursuing DH. Unkl is a gennie who will grant few of our wishes so we need to use it wisely ask what is easy like better intel share and police technology etc. Else u can waste time like porkies asking for nuke tech and then come back empty handed

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 11 Apr 2010 22:54

sum wrote:What stops MMS from giving a simple diktat to Obama in the meeting:

patience in India is running out. Either give meaningful cooperation( assist us in our goals of neutering the anti-Indian and anti-Amriki jihadis, forget only anti-Indian since US will have a vested interest in keeping them alive) or else gloves are off and be ready to see some action in PoK.

Why is it that it is us who have to accommodate others concerns? When will others start adjusting to our concerns.

We need to help ourselves if we keep showing restraint porkies will increase the stakes to see what is our breaking point. Even though Operation Paakram was a failure it did scare the sh** out of porkie jernails. Cold start gives them chills all we need is to show some resolve and hurt them. We need to make sure they know that there is a cost to pay for their actions. Learn for Israelis.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 11 Apr 2010 23:50

I told you long time ago, and I am repeating: when things are not done at the right time, they loose their significance. Given the time that has passed, this whole DH affair will turn out to be a damp squib or worse and more likely, India TSP equal equal.

I predict that after all the hemming & whining, legal procedues etc; US will grant the DH access dog bone to India with a lot of fan fare. But true to form, TSP will say me too. So after all of India's hardwork, TSP will get acess to Headley too.

Now, DH being a quintessetial RAPE, and after all the time that has passed and coached by US lawyers, will say something to India, and something to TSP. And both India & TSP will issue verbal volleys in the media, only TSP's will be more eloquent, Quereshi will hold a press conf in a Gucci suit and spit out his verbal diarreah in shudh Oxford accent.

Western media of course will repeat verbatim the equal equal, Indian media, led by the likes of Bakara will also be relived that TSP has gotten away (as will Obama & Co), but to show "patriotism" and fill the airwaves, they will ask maacho useless questions to Indian govt, dump on USA (as if it matters); anything but pointing to the real truth: the crimes of TSPA/ISI/LET against India.

sum · Post by **sum** » 12 Apr 2010 14:58

Article looks like a deliberate leak to show the current thinking of Indian top echelon thoughts regarding the Headley saga:
Why the US is wary of allowing access to Headley

Highly placed sources told rediff.com that it seems very unlikely that the US will grant access to Headley, who allegedly conduced a recce for the 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks [ Images ]. Even if they are granted limited access it will be under Federal Bureau of Investigation supervision and Indian officials are not hopeful of getting the information that they are really trying to seek.

In the investigations post Headley's revelations to the FBI, India n agencies have stumbled upon various facts. Sources say that the fact that he is a double agent is not a big worry for the United States. Indian agencies say that there are many such persons from the US who have been involved with Pakistan to carry out subversive activities in India. The names of several such persons have cropped up during investigations and only Headley can name them.

Investigations have revealed that there is a deep-rooted Inter Services Intelligence-backed network in India. When Headley was in India, he stayed in touch with this network which comprised high-ranking officers of Pakastan's spy agancy. Headley could provide Indian agencies important leads on this network.

Indian intelligence agencies say that Headley is a gold mine of information. Terrorist groups always work on a need to know basis, but Headley is different. His determination and his ability helped him get to the top rung very easily. His contacts were always at the high level. He was very well connected to the ISI top rung in India and if he opens up it would be of immense help to Indian security agencies. Headley knows everything about ISI operatives working in India and he could help shut down most of that network.

Indian agencies say they are fully aware that Pakistan is trying to put pressure on the US, to deny access to Indian investigators. For the US it is more of an embarrassing situation since, Headley is not the only one who has helped launch a terror attack from their soil. Headley had contacted several persons undertaking similar jobs and the US would not like that information to come out in the open, sources pointed out.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Apr 2010 22:58

So Gen. Paddy was right in his book.

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 12 Apr 2010 23:22

I am finding it hard to understand the author's conclusions in the rediff article posted by Sum

Indian agencies say they are fully aware that Pakistan is trying to put pressure on the US, to deny access to Indian investigators.

Why would Unkil buckle under porki pressure. What does US gain from that?

For the US it is more of an embarrassing situation since, Headley is not the only one who has helped launch a terror attack from their soil. Headley had contacted several persons undertaking similar jobs and the US would not like that information to come out in the open, sources pointed out.

So many porkies have been caught from Chicago area in past few weeks so DCH is singing in federal prison. For Unkil he has really been a goldmine of information. Also if he spits out few ISI asset's info what harm is there for unkil in not sharing it with India.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 12 Apr 2010 23:28

Brad Goodman wrote:I am finding it hard to understand the author's conclusions in the rediff article posted by Sum

]Indian agencies say they are fully aware that Pakistan is trying to put pressure on the US, to deny access to Indian investigators.
Why would Unkil buckle under porki pressure. What does US gain from that?

Cooperation from Pakistan to US is based on such silly issues.

So many porkies have been caught from Chicago area in past few weeks so DCH is singing in federal prison. For Unkil he has really been a goldmine of information. Also if he spits out few ISI asset's info what harm is there for unkil in not sharing it with India.

US can handle the fallout of the past work with ISI.
But Pakistan and PA will have tough time to get support to have the same policy as US war on Terror.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Apr 2010 23:40

Pak is putting pressure on US to deny India access to Headley lest he expose more of TSP secrets. However Headley is a US agent. And US doesnt want to give India access except under managed conditions, lest he expose the US secrets. Hence they trot the TSP H&D as an excuse to deny the access and same time show the TSP how good a friend they are in protecting the TSP H&D, hence why don't TSP do more in FATA/WATA etc.

However the US forgot they had signed the extradiation treaty with India and the very charges they used to plea bargain with Headley are being invoked by India in seeking access.

India seeking access also puts US in the defensive. By now saying they know more about other Headleys and need confirmation, they are saying India is doing more to protect itself to reduce chances of Cold Sart and hence add to peace and stability.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 13 Apr 2010 02:29

A little naive question but what exactly would it mean to get access to David Headley.
Would a Pandu Hawaldar get to interrogate him and make sure that he sings or just few officers from CBI visiting him in some US jail to have chit chat.
Why on earth would DH open his mouth if CBI folks were to interrogate him in US ? He can not be forced, can he ? He knows he is safe if he can cut a deal with US attorneys.
All he has to do is to shut up his mouth or implicate anyone and everyone to set the investigators on wrong track. Unless he can be extradited to India, I can't see him sharing any useful information with India.

So why all this noise about access to DH ? What useful purpose does it serve ?

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 13 Apr 2010 03:14

Details of India's access to Headley ‘not yet worked out’

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/internati ... 395550.ece

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 13 Apr 2010 03:18

Speculation Onlee: The ease with which DCH seemed to find friends and India and the

done by the Bhatt family points that he duped CIA assets into cooperating with him on what was essentially an ISI project. Interrogating him will likely out more CIA moles than ISI moles in India. This explains why Fitzgerald himself came down and classified some of the testimony/evidence as having an impact on "National Security". I dont think all this energy is being spent to protect Paki H&D or Paki moles in India.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 13 Apr 2010 04:45

It seems as if one of the only ways to get access to Headley will be to kidnap and then fly him to India after he is released from prison.

amdavadi · Post by **amdavadi** » 13 Apr 2010 04:54

DH will get new ID after he is done serving his term.No way in hell GOI will get their hands on DH.

sum · Post by **sum** » 13 Apr 2010 08:42

vera_k wrote:It seems as if one of the only ways to get access to Headley will be to kidnap and then fly him to India after he is released from prison.

Ha ha... We are unable to do anything remotely similar to that in Neighboring Pak and you are expecting Indian slueths to do that in Massa?

Im 400% sure that Massa will have every possible info on most of our agency ops worldwide( enough assets in all our major branches) and will be in 100% knowhow of any Indian ops directed against them. Hence, there is no question of such a thing ever happening.

sum · Post by **sum** » 13 Apr 2010 08:42

ramana wrote:So Gen. Paddy was right in his book.

Ramana garu,
what are you referring to?

Patni · Post by **Patni** » 13 Apr 2010 11:29

Menon discusses India’s access to Headley with Jones

PTI
Washington, April 13, 2010

National Security Adviser Shivshankar Menon has met his U.S. counterpart James Jones here and discussed modalities by which access could be given to David Headley, Lashkar—e Taiba operative blamed for role in Mumbai attacks.

Mr. Menon’s meeting with Mr. Jones to discuss next steps in the bilateral ties came a day after Prime Minister Manmohan Singh raised the issue of Headley with President Barack Obama.

Modalities and ways in which India could be given access to Headley, a Pakistani—origin American national, were among the various issues discussed by the two National Security Advisers, sources said.

Besides access, India is determined to seek Headleys’ extradition. India has said that it would use every occasion to seek Headley’s extradition and access to him.

Headley, who was arrested in Chicago in October last year, has confessed to playing a crucial role in the Mumbai attacks. In this plea bargain with the US government, he has offered to be subjected to questioning by foreign investigators through deposition, video conferencing or Letters Rogatory.

The sources said India would push for Headley’s extradition. But if that takes time, India will seek direct access to him to unravel the entire conspiracy to which he was a part not only in terms of 26/11 but other planned attacks in India.

“Extradition will be our preference because the crime has been committed in India,” they said.

At the same time, the sources noted that India was still in the midst of legal processes with regard to seeking access to and extradition of Headley. Formal communication would be sent to the US after that.

India is keen to interrogate Headley in a way that is legally acceptable in a court in the country.

“The interrogation should be legally usable and satisfy our legal processes,” the sources said.

Manu · Post by **Manu** » 13 Apr 2010 14:01

sum wrote:
ramana wrote:So Gen. Paddy was right in his book.
Ramana garu,
what are you referring to?

Please see: http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... nandv.html

On retirement, General Paddy wrote a book: "The Writing on the Wall". In this book, he said:

* Washington would prove a threat to India`s national interests at some time after 2008.
* By 2010, General Padmanabhan envisaged India having excellent relations with its neighbors except Pakistan.
* By 2014, he foresees India becoming one of the founders of the Asian Security Environment.
* He forecasted an Indo-Pak war by 2017, where the Americans would side with Pakistan and China and Russia taking India`s sides.
* In the Imaginary India-USA war (actually a Indo-Pak war, in which USA directly intervenes in support of MunnA):
* "Missiles were fired by the US Carrier Battle Groups and were destroyed by India`s fully effective National Missile Shield.
* India hurt the US badly by carrying out selective electro-magnetic pulse attacks against Washington DC and the manufacturing facility for cruise missiles in Arizona.
* She also carried out cyber attacks against New York and commercial and administrative centers in USA to plunge her administration, commerce and banking sectors into chaos.
* The US retaliated by destroying all India`s civil and military satellites".
* "The US, decided to use manned aircraft against our satellite earth station at Pune which was the hub of our re-engineered communication links using Chinese satellites. The attacks were to be facilitated by anti-radiation missiles
fired from accompanying aircraft in order to deny the Indian air defense system the advantage of early warning from their radars.
* The Indian response was to destroy the anti-radiation missiles and also five of the eight aircraft used in this, the only air attack attempted by the USA in the conflict".

As always, this book had generated healthy and heated debate on BRF.

Of course, our good old General was no Astrologer - for even he could not have foreseen 8 years of UPA. The last sentence is purely my sentiment, so take it FWIW.

Of course, if this is not what Ramana meant, then my apologies.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Apr 2010 23:49

In addition to all that the book has vignette of a US SF operator living as a small kirana shop guy in Western India.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Apr 2010 01:06

Rediff interview:May get some access to Headley, No extradition says A.S. Dulat

... In view of President Obama's lukewarm response the issue is getting more complicated as India needs to file a legal case against Headley for his involvement in the 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks

The National Investigative Agency, the newly-formed outfit which is investigating terrorism-related cases, is preparing a charge-sheet against Headley in the 26/11 case. To strengthen the charge-sheet Indian agencies need not only proof of his many terror reconnaissance trips to India but also definitive proof like e-mails, telephonic conversations, photographs and videos if any.

India wants all the information that Headley has given to US sleuths which can come through if India gets access to Headley or can manage to convince the US establishment to extradite him to India, which seems unlikely.

A S Dulat, former special director of Intelligence Bureau, India's internal intelligence agency and former chief of Research and Analysis Wing, India's external intelligence agency, explains the issues at stake in an in-depth conversation with rediff.com's Sheela Bhatt.

You must have seen many such under-cover operatives. What kind of profile of Headley emerges in your mind?

My understanding is solely based on newspaper reports. I don't have first hand information. What I understand is that he was a drug addict at one time. He was picked up by the US Drug Enforcement Agency. Then, most likely, he worked for them. I think, somewhere along the line they discovered that he has good contacts in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

It seems that after 9/11, the Americans showed greater interest in him as a possible deep-penetration agent. I think, it's quite clear that he has been working for an American agent who must have encouraged him to go to Pakistan and penetrate the Lashkar-e-Tayiba and other terrorist outfits. That's why he is talking about attending so many terror training camps 2003 onwards. Interestingly, he also attended some course on counter-surveillance.

After 2005 or so, the story shifts to India where he worked for the LeT. We Indians know what the Lashkar is all about. Obviously, he was interacting with Inter Services Intelligence officials as well. In the investigations it's come out that he was very much involved in the 26/11 Mumbai attacks. He was taking photographs, video and he was also given the task of suggesting a landing site for the terrorists. He was very much part of the whole thing.

The interesting thing for us is that even after 26/11 he visited India. To me the most mysterious part of the story is why did Americans arrest Headley? Obviously they knew what is happening. US had warned us about 26/11. The information had come from the Americans that sabotage could take place from the sea in September 2008. It happened in November.

If Headley was their man he must have told them about it. It's a complex kind of intelligence operation. Somewhere along the line it must have gone out of control of the American agent/handler or they must have thought that this man is now too hot to handle because he is directly involved in 26/11. He is really the kingpin in the whole thing that's why he has been arrested. That's how I see the story, so far.

Do you think Headley's agent or agents in the Central Intelligence Agency/Federal Bureau of Investigations/DEA were not at all aware of the 26/11 plan before it happened?

It's difficult to say how much they knew. Here we should not jump to conclusions. It is also possible that Headley shared with his handler the broad outline of what LeT was doing and kept out his own involvement. In a classic sense Headley was a double agent. That's quite possible. Note another interesting thing. How he changed his name from Dawood Gilani to Headley. I feel after his intense and frequent interactions with the Pakistanis, mentally, he again, became, Dawood Gilani.

It's possible that for Americans he was Headley but under his skin he was Gilani. At some stage, the Americans figured out that this guy is dangerous and he knows more than he let on. That's why they picked him up.

What you are saying is this: India should believe that American agent or agents were so incompetent that they did not know what their mole is doing, where he is flying? After all, they must be paying him as well.

The point is if you have a deep-penetration agent inside the LeT or the Taliban or Al Qaeda there is so much excitement about having such an agent because these are not easy to find. You tend to believe whatever the man says. Probably, Headley was telling Americans everything whatever was happening in Pakistan but it's possible that he may not have told them about the Mumbai story.

It's possible. It's not so much question of incompetence of Americansthese things happen. Another thing you are suggesting is that if Americans knew it (details of Mumbai attacks before they happened) and they didn't tell us. I would like to believe that probably, the Americans didn't know the extent of this man's involvement. Obviously, they knew the broad outline... that this is going to happen. That the attack is going to be planned, that it will be from sea, that the Lashkar is involved.

So, you want to say that the agent was smarter than his American handlers?

See, for me the only intriguing thing is that his passport would have all the entries. I agree with you that his handler should have known about it. His visits to India should have been questioned by his American handlers. Why was he going to India so frequently? That is a grey area.

This grey area can be debated further for sake of understanding the issue. This means that in the end he fooled CIA or FBI, completely.

I don't think that he fooled them completely. As I said earlier that when you have agent like him -- a deep-penetration agent -- then you tend to believe what he says. He is giving you so much information. He is giving you information on Lashkar training camps and what is the role of so-called colonels and majors and so on...

In that case why did Americans not keep track of such a good agent? Or is it possible that Americans themselves facilitated Headley's visit to Mumbai?

No, no. I don't think so. As far as we are concerned we didn't notice his visits because Headley had an US passport and an American name. I don't think the Americans were helping him his travel to India.

So, you are saying that this is the case of the American handler's naivety in believing Headley?

Possibly, possibly.

Which are the other possibilities?

The only thing where I intend to agree with you is how the Americans did not notice that Headley was coming to India since 2005. But, what he was saying and briefing Americans can be understood. The factor of 'gullibility' is understandable. The agency would normally believe a person, who gets such exciting stuff from Pakistan. But, how they lost track of his movements is intriguing. Somebody from the US agencies should explain that to the Indians.

People are asking about our immigration. How come we could not keep track of Headley? It's a fair enough question.

But, I know how the Indian system works. When 15 to 20 lakh foreigners come to India it's difficult to keep track because he must be coming to India from different cities. It was not noticed, as I told you, because he was an American national. I suppose, Americans will deny that he ever worked for them except the DEA.

How do you see the deal between Headley and the US authorities? And is it fair to India?

What is fair or unfair? This is not a Romeo and Juliet love affair. We have a very good strategic partnership with the Americans. I don't think it is going to affect it in any big way. In bilateral relations there are times when things don't work like it should. Even the Americans must be having a grouse that we don't do what they want us to do. This is part of the game.

Is this issue not different? It's a question of 170 deaths of Indians in which Headley is directly involved. You have said just now that Headley may be the kingpin. Don't you give the victim country an access to a 'kingpin' behind such an attack?

In a technical kind of way they will give access or may not give access to Headley. The issue is in the legal domain. Definitely they are not going to agree for an extradition. That's ruled out. It's quite clear from what US government has said so far. Ultimately, what you will get is Headley's deposition in court. I think what the Indian government is looking for is the Pakistani connection in his statement before a US court. That's all, I think, we are hoping for. Let us see what happens. To what extent he implicates himself, to what extent he implicates the Lashkar and to what extent he implicates Pakistan. We are waiting for it. Our future course and even our relations with the US will depend on that statement.

Do you mean the Pakistan army's connection to Headley?

Yes. The ISI or the Pakistani military establishment. We are virtually saying that the Pakistani military establishment has been involved in the Mumbai attacks. Pakistan is denying it by saying that non-state actors are involved. David Headley is a non-state actor.

Could the Americans have handled the Headley episode in such a way that they could also have taken care of India's interest?

Let me put it like this. As we are presuming, and, that seems to be a general view, that Headley was an American agent. If he was an American agent, and, I think he was, then, it is not easy for the Americans to hand over their agent to you just because he may tell you about the LeT and the ISI.

He can tell you lot about Americans as well, so, it's not easy to handover someone of your own. Then, what will be your (US spy agencies) credibility in future in that (Pakistan) part of the world? After all, the Americans are not going to stop operating in those parts. I am sure there must be some other agents as well. If you are going to handover your agent to that part of the world (India) who is considered your (Pakistan's) enemy then where is the American credibility?

Do you mean to say that those who are working in Pakistan for American spy agencies like the CIA will be worried, right now?

Obviously. If you can get hanged then why risk yourself? That's why this bargain plea by Headley. That deal has been worked out by the American authorities with Headley. This is what happens in such cases. It's no big deal, you know! If we presume that Headley is an American agent then how do you expect that their man will be handed over to you?

It is the same logic with Dawood Ibrahim. He is a Pakistani agent so how do you expect him to be handed over to you? This is Dawood Gilani. We have been telling the Pakistanis to hand over Dawood Ibrahim but he is so mixed up with Pakistanis so how can they hand him over to you? Would we hand over somebody in similar circumstances? I don't think so.

Since you are making it as a big thing that will impact Indo-US relations I want to ask why do we swing from one extreme to the other in our relations with the US?
Sometime we say the Americans are closest to us. We are two largest democracies and all such things. But, things don't work like that. Ultimately, it is one's own national interest that is paramount.

Do you think India's national interest is served in the Headley case as it has unfolded?

India's interest may not have been served in one case. But, the one case does not mean that it is end of our relationship. Like some people are suggesting that we need to warn the Americans. They want to convey that if this is the way Indians are being treated then closer relations are not possible. In strategic relations, emotions are not allowed.

No one is saying we don't want the relationship. To some critics it's a question of distrust.

In that case I will ask you a question. Today, why is Pakistan perceived to be closer to America than India is?

Experts say Pakistan's establishment is closer to America.

That's what I am saying. More than the Indian establishment, the Pakistani establishment is closer to Washington. General (Ashfaq) Kayani and General (Ahmed Shuja) Pasha are given a grand audience in Washington. This is because Pakistan has realised that not in Afghanistan only but to the region they are crucial. Americans want to leave Afghanistan and Pakistanis know that without them the Americans can't work out the deal. Pakistan is sitting pretty in this part of the region. This is the reality. So if I am frustrated it doesn't change the facts. Right now, Pakistan is saying to Americans that here is the deal for you in Afghanistan. Take it or lump it.

In that case what is your reading of Pakistan's concern vis-à-vis Headley?

I think, they would be laughing. They must be happy, if, he was a double agent. We do think he was a double agent. Here is the double agent who worked more for Pakistanis than for the Americans. And, he is causing sufficient fraction between India and America.

You have been special director of IB and chief of RAW. You must have seen many agents in world of spies. Are you impressed by Headley's persona?

I don't know his details. But, what all I have read in the press seems to be a normal thing. We suspect that he was a double agent and double agents at times provide the best intelligence. You might say it is unethical. But, there is no ethical thing in this issue. Double agents are double agents and they provide crucial intelligence and sometimes the best intelligence.

How will the Headley case move on?

Surely, he will be punished. We are hoping that he will get a life sentence. But my point is how would it make a difference to the Indian establishment whether he gets a life sentence or 15 years of imprisonment? Those who have lost relatives are very unfortunate. I am not talking about them. My feelings are with them. I am talking of the Indian government. They have to move on. A bilateral relation has to be broad-based.

There are many critics and diplomats who think the Indian government is handling the issue very softly. Some critics have argued that the Chinese government would have been strident and would have created the required pressure.

The Indian government must have been having some compulsions. I am not aware of it. See, relations with US, the way it is perceived, is quite crucial to us. If it were some other country we would have called the ambassador to register a protest.

What could be India's compulsions for remaining soft on the US in this case?

Our national interest and theirs are all a matter of one's perceptions. At this time our government may not want to show Americans in bad light. After all, as I said the relation with the US is crucial.

Ver insightful interview. I put the

to show how Sheela Bhatt matures as the interview progresses.

I think Anujan is right there will be quite a bit of fallout in common Indian person's perception of US behavior vis a vis GOAT. you can see that in ta die hard reporter like Sheela Bhatt herself. There is a lot of pain in her questions.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 14 Apr 2010 02:06

ramana wrote:In addition to all that the book has vignette of a US SF operator living as a small kirana shop guy in Western India.

When I meet several americans who are in the VC, investment and other industry they will tell that they have done backpacking inside India long ago. Most of them may have been informers for uncle. I have come to become suspicious of any backpackers - they could be the next agent similar to DCH

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Apr 2010 20:58

NRao wrote:
ramana wrote: Has anyone seen the pdf of the charges against the cab driver ?
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. RAJA LAHRASIB KHAN

Can some one compare and contrast this indictment to Headley and look at L-e-T's tactics and recruitment?
Can we draw any more insight into L-e-T modus operandi?

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 15 Apr 2010 03:36

NSA talks Headley access with US

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 15 Apr 2010 03:42

Amber G. wrote:NSA talks Headley access with US

Why no love for Rana from India? He shouldn't be ignored amidst all the Headley hoopla. We also need access to the Virginia jihadis.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 15 Apr 2010 03:54

^^^ Indian officials are saying that they are closely monitoring/watching/ focusing on Rana.. Seems Headley has spilled some beans on Rana (that was the part of the deal)..Anyway Indian investigators are hoping Rana would tell them more about Headley besides the Mumbai attack and the Lashkar’s plans for other cities...Also FWIW pressing for access to Rana is being done since he is not protected by an plea bargain deal - we do know Rana had also visited India just ahead of the 26/11 attacks and visited several cities including Delhi, Lucknow, Agra). Hope US cooperates...