Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

[sanjeevpunj]

Religion is the process of docking yourself with God- or Mothership or Fathership (I chose to call God Mother Ship, individual choices may vary). A lot of pitfalls exist, yet the manouvre must be carried out carefully and painstakingly till the goal is acheived. Here are some interesting supportive ideas from Gandhi and Vivekananda. While Gandhi found the stomach oriented path towards spiritual progress, Swami Vivekananda was on a mental plane throughout, speaking of things that only an enlightened few could understand, and out of that only a handful could practice and follow.

Gandhi, one of the most well known brahmacharis, besides being an adherent of simple living and nonresistance, also devoted himself to creating what he believed to be a perfect diet. The diet, later named the "Gandhi-diet" meant a diet which was environmentally acceptable, based on economical (low-cost) products and healthy (allowing the body to perform at its best capabilities; thus keeping digestion in mind). The diet, on which he worked for 35 years, constantly re-evaluating and improving it for himself, consisted of [1] [2] :
1 litre of goat's or cow's milk
170 g cereals
85 g leafy vegetables
140 g other vegetables
30 g raw vegetables
40 g ghee
60 g butter
and 40 g jaggery or sugar
fruits according to one's taste and purse
2 sour limes (juice taken with vegetables or in water, cold or hot)
salt according to taste
Gandhi also kept his weight low, with a Body Mass Index of 17.7. Today, the Gandhi diet is again becoming more popular, and experts as Dr. P.P. Bose [1] state the diet to be very healthy and to fit perfectly with the (USDA) food-pyramid.[3]
The effect of certain food components in stimulating sexual desire may be attributed to their role in sex hormone synthesis. According to tradition, certain foods such as garlic and onion are said to induce sexual desire. Whole milk and milk products derived from cream (butter, ghee and cheese) are also said to stimulate sexual desire, despite being part of the Gandhi diet.

Swami Vivekananda on Brahmcharya

"That power comes to him who observes unbroken Brahmacharya for a period of twelve years, with the sole object of realising God I have practiced that kind of Brahmacharya myself, and so a screen has been removed, as it were, from my brain."
"The chaste brain has tremendous energy and gigantic will power. Without chastity there can be no spiritual strength. Continence gives wonderful control over mankind.The spiritual leaders of men have been very continent and this is what gave them power."
"Every boy should be trained to practice absolute Brahmacharya and then, and then alone faith and Shraddha will come. Chastity in thought, word and deed always and in all conditions is what is called Brahmacharya. Unchaste imagination is as bad as unchaste action. The Brahmacharin must be pure in thought, word and deed."
"In order to attain to ideal Brahmacharya one has in the beginning to observe strict rules regarding chastity. For minimum 12 years, one should keep oneself strictly aloof from the least association with the opposite sex as far as possible. When spiritual aspirants are established in the ideal of Sannyasa and brahmacharya, they will be able to mix on an equal footing with worldly men without any harm. But in the beginning 12 years, if they do not keep themself within the barriers of strict rules, they will all go wrong."
"Brahmacharya should be like a burning fire within the veins!"
"Obedience to the Guru without questioning, and strict observance of Brahmacharya — this is the secret of success."

Summing up, Brahmcharya is the key to spiritual success, and thousands of fallen souls have fallen from grace simply because they couldnt remain perfect Brahmcharis. In these days of Kaliyuga, the recommended process is chanting Harinaam, propounded by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Examples of this process are seen worldwide in ISKCON centres.
The pillars of the spiritual practice are highlited by the following four dictums :-

1.No Meat eating (includes fish and eggs, red or white meat or any other form of meat)
2.No Alcohol or Drugs or even mild intoxicants (Coffee and Tea are mild intoxicants)
3.No Illicit Sexual relationships (relationships outside marriage)
4.No gambling or speculative activity like betting etc.

Above practices are being currently followed by millions of adherants worldwide.

[RamaY]

Thank you Pulikeshi garu.

I am on the same page with you now

[brihaspati]

In the exalted company here, I feel I can give vent to a mixture of my ramblings and thoughts on the lines being discussed.

Lets take specific issues. First the question of "abstinence" - lets start with just one of them, food!

For a long time in my youth, until about 16, I was quite fond of meat in taste. [My basic diet from teething time, was plenty of fish+meat+eggs, sour-dahi, atta-roti (hand ground in wooden or stone mills), various pulses, plenty of limes and lemons]. I had never tasted chilli in any form until 16, no tea or coffee. But I also felt very bad internally each time I ate meat. There was always an intense pull in two opposite directions - because I agonized over the killing of the animal.

At 16, dad wanted me to taste "general and popular foods". Many I liked. Then I had this internal conflict about whether I was getting "addicted" to certan tastes?!!! I used to practise certain yoga and pranayam then [with other unmentionable but Indic ways of "sadhana" - minus the five "ma-kars", as not all among that 64 paths need alcohol or women]. So I felt that I should test my powers of "immunity" to "temptation".

I dropped out specifically those foods I enjoyed. I periodically dropped out various items of food - like sugar in coffee, lemons-lime juice, green chilli, payasam, non-veg, for indefinite periods. I even dropped coffee or tea - etc. Even abroad I have practised this. As if to test, that I am not dependent on any particular food as "necessary" or without which my life would become meaningless.

But then some years ago, while I was on a particularly critical rock-climbing exercise, I realized suddenly that even this fear of "addiction", or liking certain foods too much, or fear that certain food will make me inclined towards "undesirable" thoughts was itself a weakness.

Abstinence is the shield of the "weak". The goal should be to rise byond the need to "abstain". Where getting involved in activities/foods reco'd to be abstained from, does not lead to dependence on that activity/food. Its like you wade through both dirt and milk and neither sticks to you. And, believe me, its not that difficult - once you realize that the external forms/tastes/likes/dislikes or are like a shell which hides a profound deeper, inner light, music and feeling. You can drink and still not drink, you can eat and not eat, you can share physical pleasure with your beloved and still feel it and not feel it at the same time - and enjoy the pleasure of the 'other". It is like getting detached from yourself and learning to enjoy the enjoyment of yourself. Makes sense?!! Probably not!

But I find both Gandhi ji and Vivekananda's stress on observance of formal restrictions are represented in a way that makes "formal observance" more important than the underlying "purpose". This ritualization is what I am bothered about in the tendency of SD representations.

[brihaspati]

Illicit relationships in sex, is typically defined in terms of societal norms. This seems to change over historical times, and societies. What was legal at one stage has become illicit. What was illicit once has now become legal. Even within the same period, sexual relations are legal between cousins in certain groups whereas it is not in other groups.

Societal norms cannot be absolute and time-less, because sexual relationships from the social viewpoint is about preservation of the group. It will change depending on the survival necessities or perceptions of the group.

From the viewpoint of the individual, illicit is that which is not with your soul-mate, or the person of the opposite gender who is the dual or extension of your own atman. It is difficult to find this person perhaps. But primarily because we do not wait for that inner voice to speak. Moreover there is perhaps too much "noise" in the signals we are cionstantly bombarded with in the gender front.

[RamaY]

^^^

Was thinking (actually ) about it during the rather long drive to work.

Why did Hindu society move to monogamy? If Rama is the inspiration for this, then why did people follow polygamy during Dwapara Yuga?

[Pulikeshi]

Couple of points on human actions - from catallaxy point of view.
I believe it lines up with BG, albeit Mises came to similar conclusions eons later.

1. Every human action (karma) implies several others potential actions had to be scarified. So, whether you like it or not, we all sacrifice.

2. As BG quite correctly suggests, even inaction is an action and you are sacrificing potential actions.

3. So, feel free to give up meat, sex, win a war, buy a company, meditate, whatever rocks your boat, but realize whether you do so or not, your life is itself a sacrifice.

4. Hope the illuminated one gives us all the wisdom to make our sacrifice meaningful and one that makes for a stable society.

[Murugan]

Why did Hindu society move to monogamy? If Rama is the inspiration for this, then why did people follow polygamy during Dwapara Yuga?

may be due to unbalanced male:female ratio during that particular yug

[Sanku]

Why did Hindu society move to monogamy? If Rama is the inspiration for this, then why did people follow polygamy during Dwapara Yuga?

may be due to unbalanced male:female ratio during that particular yug

Never actually, I would say. The current version of Monogamy is one forced by GoI's psuedo-secular nonsense as close as 30-40 years back.

[Sanku]

We should be aware of the pitfalls:

RamaY was that in response to my post on the need to understand value systems from rules?

I would like to state on record that unlike Bji and Pulikeshi and I differ slightly in the approach towards "rules" (or it may be that I am merely expressing them differently)

I am NOT against rules, neither have a strong position on the need to revise them. Personally I am not sure if Varna system is INDEED the right solution after all even in its "by the birth version" in most practical sense (I see no conflict between equality of man kind and varna system)

I am only saying that the rules were important not only because of the rules as such, but because of the values they were inherently acting as a vessel for. If we break the vessel, so to say, where will the values stay? If we want reform, we better have a suitable vessel before we retire the old ones.

In the exalted company here, I feel I can give vent to a mixture of my ramblings and thoughts on the lines being discussed.

And thanks for sharing!

[RamaY]

^ No Sanku-ji.

I was putting some notes for myself as part of the discussion.

[brihaspati]

There are more issues now cropping up than I can chew on! Interesting as they are!

I appreciate Sanku ji's position on "rules" and Pulikeshi ji's take on rules too! Do I differ very much from either of you? Perhaps not really. However, my stress is on two aspects that I believe appears in SD and has been stressed out by BG and Shankara.

(1) Shankara's stress on looking at the Veda as the primary one and all else as subsidiary is a way of trying to establish "principles" as superior to their specific "implementation" as rules within the context of a particular societal experience at a time or place. BG in fact has a curious but brief critical allusion to those who use the Vedas in a ritual sense only.

The stress on "karma" in BG is also another indication of establishing principles as superior to their implementation as rules. The main pivot around which BG revolves [ignoring again the curious brief passages where a hard and rigid "varna" system extolling the "dominant" hierarchies seems to have been most likely "prakshiptya" - inserted by the usual suspects later on] is that of "dharma" turning out to be superior to all other interpretations derived rom those principles.

The fundamental message in BG appears to be that where "dharma" comes in conflict with "rules", the rules have to be discarded to preserve "dharma". In this case, dharma could not have been equal or overlapping with rules. Thus the rules said to Arjuna that he should not shed the blood and take the mortal life of his kin, his gurus. But when the principle in dharma comes into contradiction with that rule, he is urged to act in favour of the principle and not the rule.

I think it is ultimately a fundamental problem of establishing logically consistent ordering of values by an universal value system.

(2) the murky issue of rewards and punishments for actions of an individual, especially how to justify a social order and particular circumstances in which a human is born or finds himself. This I think has become problematic because people tried to find a purpose behind everything they experienced. The human tendencey to find a simple model that explains most of complex phenomenon has led to linking of past life karma as determining the outcome of where and how a human is born and what he or she should face in that life.

As I have tried to argue before, not all karma can be thought of as being transferable over multiple lifetimes. What Pulikeshi ji is referring to as "sacrifice" is correct in this sense. If you want to transfer results of karma to other lifestimes, it must relate to a purpose whose objective has not been accomplished within one life time. This means a firm primacy of the real living world, where a process started in one lifetime continues to carry on even when the body dies - as in the example of Indian independence movement I gave. For all else, karma transferred over into another lifetime makes no sense - since then you will have to establish principle sof equivalence like 4 ser of gehu [godhuma, wheat] = 1 ser of moong. So it becomes a case of establishing chains of equivalences like say, killing one brahmin = killing 2 Vaishyas = dip in the Ganges at one of the PanchaPrayags = reciting a certain yapa for 1 million times = giving a gilded horned cow to a priest.

Because for many actions, the exact circumstance in which the action took place or did not take place cannot be reproduced in another life time exactly. The people involved need not be there, the specific time and place could have changed, the hsitorical continuity of events that had led up to that point in the past life cannot be reproduced as "history" has continued forward in living world - etc.

So I personally believe that the principles should be isolated from the rules. Every generation should do this.

To Sanku ji and Rama Y ji, I would like to say that rules are not to be discarded without thought. Until we can really replace them we should retain them, but this should not make them sacrosanct. We should also recognize that rules are a result of principles or dharma and dharma is not equal to rules/nyaya/niti.

I agree that a vigorous investigation of all our texts, including what we can re-explore as the principles underlying the Vedas should be undertaken. This should be an important and urgent task of our national revival. But any and all claims of rules handed down to us as representing dharma should be questioned.

[Pulikeshi]

One more quick clarification - I am not sold on rebirth.
God is not a banker! (apologies to Einstein and none to bankers!)

1. Atman Anu Samanah - The personal self (soul) is similar to that of an atom.

2. Rebirth or recycling of energy is not a foregone conclusion per Vedanta. Like I have suggested in a previous post - the jury is still out - but my personal take is to lean towards recycling of energy rather an a explicit rebirth of the Atman. In this I find the Buddhist idea of a fleeting soul (Santana) interesting. Rebirth then is just a re-manifestation of recycled energy.

3. In the Brhadaranyaka for example - Yagnyavalkya explains that renunciation comes only with the knowledge of the Brahman and in understanding the nature of the Atman. The later Bakthi movements and Gandhiji in particular looked at it backwards in attempting to renounce material things in order to gain higher knowledge. Interesting approach...

4. In the Mundaka for example - there is a distinction made between Higher and Lower Knowledge. Lower Knowledge results in better Karma (actions). Whereas Higher Knowledge may cease all action. That is, if everyone in society, of all ages, try to pursue Higher Knowledge - society itself has potential to collapse.

5. Take the boundary condition - if everyone attains Moksha and is freed from rebirth - who is left to be born - what becomes of society?

6. Samkara offers escape from the above contradictions. When he clarifies is that "do not drift from place to place like a fly" - practice Karma Yoga. Meaning, action (karma) ought to be for a higher purpose all the time every time. Realize that you the individual is the same as the universe literally, the same material in the stars, planets and the moon - you are made of.

7. Be conscious and present - Try to be less of a 'Human Doing' and more of a 'Human Being'

[RamaY]

^

Taking that analogy... the atman is like atom but it takes the shape of the body, and another body, and another body - that is rebirth.

In all these bodies, and time-space continuum that atom (atman) remains same - no change in its form/shape/consciousness.

The same atom may take a different shape - another human body, or an animal or a tree or even pashana. But that atom remains same in its consciousness - this is karma phala.

It is that Ahamkara who makes us to see this body as separate from that atom (atman). As long as this Ahamkara (avidya) stays, we fail to see the atom (atman).

When we realize that we are nothing but that atom (atman-consciousness) then we are liberated from the Arishadvargas. Then it doesn't matter in which form/shape that atom (atman) lives because its consciousness is Atman not that form.

By the way it reminds me a beautiful explanation of Feynman diagrams in Gary Zukov's Dancing Wu-li Masters. In that he explains how a sub-atomic particle moves from one state to another beyond time/space dimensions and how we, as observers, perceive it as a phenomenon happening in space and (linear) time dimension.

[Pulikeshi]

^ Its been years since I read the Dancing Wu-Li Masters, Tao of Physics, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and Lila - still good books to read

[Prem]

Guru Logs,About Atman and Parmatam, any logical explanation of the Jar analogy consitituting of space within an out and all being same yada yada. This Jaar thingy also remind me of the traditional ritual of Gharra with water broken in death rites before cremation, symbolic of the bidy being gone and Essence inside out of jail.

[ramana]

Bji said:

Its like you wade through both dirt and milk and neither sticks to you. And, believe me, its not that difficult - once you realize that the external forms/tastes/likes/dislikes or are like a shell which hides a profound deeper, inner light, music and feeling. You can drink and still not drink, you can eat and not eat, you can share physical pleasure with your beloved and still feel it and not feel it at the same time - and enjoy the pleasure of the 'other". It is like getting detached from yourself and learning to enjoy the enjoyment of yourself.

Isn't this 'detachment' or 'nishkama karma"?

Rudyard Kipling also captures this essence in his poem "If".

IF

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

[brihaspati]

I had wrestled with the physics explanation for a long time. My conclusion has been that physics is an ongoing process of gaining increasing understanding of the material world of observable phenomena [explaining from non-observable entities and principles] and it does not yet capture all of "reality".

I think phsyics concepts are beautiful analogies - but they are what they are - analogies. For example you cannot literally take the "atman" == atom. An atom is a aprticular assemblage of subatomic particles/waveforms who themselves could be assemblages of further subdivisions etc. How do you reconcile concpets of parts of an atman within the atman? Atoms are divisible and they can disintegrate - can we link that to an atman? There is a possibility of "proton decay" according to some theories - will that imply that parts of atman can decay!

I have several reasons based on personal exoeriences of a diehard sceptic that inclines me to think that there exists a way of "memory of experiences" of one life to be transferred to another life after death of the physical body. Or that different inner "being" connections exist that can very nearly communicate between each other over long distances.

It is this aspect of "life experience" [visual/sound memory] that bothers me about the purley physical explanations. The ones that I can think of off the cuff within physics that can be used to try and see for an explanation is - M-theory [especially the one about inter-brane clashes as having genrated the big-bang creation of an universe], the "missing" dimensions 11-4=7 "tightly curled" ones of classical "string theory" which however is still not fully renormalizable and no luck yet in getting good concrete predictions, the so-called dark-energy and dark-matter. All of which can be explored -I think as improvements on the analogy front.

I would just close it off saying - I think there is an entity that is "conscious" and connects to our material 4 dimensional world [from a complementary "membrane"] and the interface lies in our human brain which is capable of becoming aware of this interface. I proposed the "ball" hypithesis because of this very reason as it can explain a lot of features we talk about. Because individual "atman" are simply extremal points extending from the ball, memory can be transferred back to the "ball" as a repository or pushed down immediatley below the surface of the extension. When th extremnal point dances again and find a new surrounding material point to explore [another body] it still is in close proximity to the diffusion of ealier extension memories. [Don't take this too seriously! ]

[brihaspati]

ramana ji, perfectly quoted!
I will just add "pleasure and intense joy" to "nishkama karma" only!

[Prem]

There ought to be a special BR SOS meet to have the Sangat of Saints, the gathering of the Sansari Sanyasis, Nishkam Kama..

[Pulikeshi]

^ As long as there is delightful Soma served count me in

[brihaspati]

Now now Prem ji, can it officially happen while all the SHQ's are ruling formally? It has to be mental onlee!

On a more seriosu note - I think almost all of us here are on tasks as mapped out by destiny. If our life's task is not complete then we may never get the chance to finsih it again. For the moment the task is perhaps that our future generations or [ourselves in next births!] grow up to take further what our ancestors left to us as knowledge and heritage. Ask this of yourselves - if there is a chance that you are reborn again in a future India, how would you enjoy being born into an Islamic family or EJ-ist family or in afmily living in place which is a distant outpost of a Caliphate or under Han officials who rule your country?

[Prem]

Now now Prem ji, can it officially happen while all the SHQ's are ruling formally? It has to be mental onlee!

On a more seriosu note - I think almost all of us here are on tasks as mapped out by destiny. If our life's task is not complete then we may never get the chance to finsih it again. For the moment the task is perhaps that our future generations or [ourselves in next births!] grow up to take further what our ancestors left to us as knowledge and heritage. Ask this of yourselves - if there is a chance that you are reborn again in a future India, how would you enjoy being born into an Islamic family or EJ-ist family or in afmily living in place which is a distant outpost of a Caliphate or under Han officials who rule your country?

Even though i am most apprehensive of this , It wont happen , if it ever happened we shall wage war against the unjust gods. Seriously , there is still quite a bit fruit of ancestral good karma left to shield us from this curse. My gut feeling and bit educated is that there are certain unspent Bharti Samaji, Atmic forces laying dormant in In Bhartvaresh with the exception of Eastern part of Desh. Once ignited they will change the course of history, but time has not come yet even though it will happen in our life time. Paap ki handi will burst inevitably . Like Gurkha , take the vow of not to die till the battle is won.

[RamaY]

I think phsyics concepts are beautiful analogies - but they are what they are - analogies. For example you cannot literally take the "atman" == atom. An atom is a aprticular assemblage of subatomic particles/waveforms who themselves could be assemblages of further subdivisions etc. How do you reconcile concpets of parts of an atman within the atman? Atoms are divisible and they can disintegrate - can we link that to an atman? There is a possibility of "proton decay" according to some theories - will that imply that parts of atman can decay!

Because science assumes that "that" exists either in material form or energy form. Atman exists as the consciousness and I think that is formless (nirguna).

At one level the sub-atomic particles "dance" between the particle and wave forms often shifting their forms for no reason. Perhaps that is their state of being. If the visible reality (for example my body) to be made up of molecules, which made up of atoms, which made up of sub-atomic particles and so on... at one level we reach those particles which jump between that particle and wave forms.

the we can safely assume that at any given point of time this "Shiva" (or dance of particles/waves) happens all the time everywhere including myself/body. Since these wave forms can travel further from my physical being, that could be my aura (?). The even if I sit here a section of my wave-being can be dancing with a tollywood heroine Ileyana and it goes on I guess.

My cousin, who is big in to yoga (completed certified instructor) sees it as conscious living - a life style where every action is done consciously and he expects to achieve that attachment (universal love) or detachment (nishkama karma).

Since sound is the form of energy (thus wave, thus can influence things) that human can easily create in different frequencies and modulations, perhaps it became best form of tuning the nature around you; thru mantras. A specific mantra can create resonance with "desired" aspects of the nature in such a way that it brings a certain affect on our life.

I am wandering aimlessly in a garden here and I see a flower here, a plant there, a tree there, a bird here, someone else singing....

[RamaY]

Even though i am most apprehensive of this , It wont happen , if it ever happened we shall wage war against the unjust gods. Seriously , there is still quite a bit fruit of ancestral good karma left to shield us from this curse. My gut feeling and bit educated is that there are certain unspent Bharti Samaji, Atmic forces laying dormant in In Bhartvaresh with the exception of Eastern part of Desh. Once ignited they will change the course of history, but time has not come yet even though it will happen in our life time. Paap ki handi will burst inevitably . Like Gurkha , take the vow of not to die till the battle is won.

Perhaps "we" came here to BRF on script based on plans we did in previous lives... perhaps it is time for action, however small it might be... because we "know" that is a task that is accomplished over multiple births

now I am scared...

[RamaY]

self-deleted...

[RamaY]

I would just close it off saying - I think there is an entity that is "conscious" and connects to our material 4 dimensional world [from a complementary "membrane"] and the interface lies in our human brain which is capable of becoming aware of this interface. I proposed the "ball" hypithesis because of this very reason as it can explain a lot of features we talk about. Because individual "atman" are simply extremal points extending from the ball, memory can be transferred back to the "ball" as a repository or pushed down immediatley below the surface of the extension. When th extremnal point dances again and find a new surrounding material point to explore [another body] it still is in close proximity to the diffusion of ealier extension memories. [Don't take this too seriously! ]

In to what that ball of consciousness is expanding?

could it be "Sa bhoomir viswatho vruthwa.Athyathishta ddhasangulam" ?

[Prem]

I would just close it off saying - I think there is an entity that is "conscious" and connects to our material 4 dimensional world [from a complementary "membrane"] and the interface lies in our human brain which is capable of becoming aware of this interface. I proposed the "ball" hypithesis because of this very reason as it can explain a lot of features we talk about. Because individual "atman" are simply extremal points extending from the ball, memory can be transferred back to the "ball" as a repository or pushed down immediatley below the surface of the extension. When th extremnal point dances again and find a new surrounding material point to explore [another body] it still is in close proximity to the diffusion of ealier extension memories. [Don't take this too seriously! ]

In to what that ball of consciousness is expanding?

could it be "Sa bhoomir viswatho vruthwa.Athyathishta ddhasangulam" ?

This leads to another question , can the xpansion and contraction phenomemon be applied to this consicousness as both being dependent on duality ?

[RamaY]

This leads to another question , can the xpansion and contraction phenomemon be applied to this consicousness as both being dependent on duality ?

It could be a logical fallacy per Samkara.

Duality (as a concept) is the distance between god-consciousness and individual-consciousness. But god-consciousness cannot be infinite or omnipresent if individual consciousness exists differently from god-consciousness.

[brihaspati]

My model : hope this titillates! Humans are consciousnesses enshrined in physical bodies and are at the interface between the "sphere" and othe "outside reality" - here the sky and the clouds!

[brihaspati]

BG's words on other "philosophies" should be seen more as lateral additions by "interested" parties, and are contradictory to the main tenor and thesis. Later "priesthood" found the message not really upholding their hierarchical special staus or privileges and hence all sorts of brief liners. BG is also critical of certain "blind" or ritualistic adherence to the Vedas. By some interpretations, and texts, there were many "Buddhas" and not just one. The "historical" Buddha we talk about was only one in a long list.

[rkirankr]

^^ There are interpretations which say that the Buddha (gautama buddha) was not the one mentioned as avatar. Gautama was actually was born much later than the original one who was the avatar of Vishnu. This avatar was supposed to have given its teachings such that the actual meaning lay hidden in the layers. The later Buddhist teaching reflect the meaning on the surface or as some would say is very different from what really is. JMVHT

[RamaY]

B-ji

I visualized your model exactly the same way as you presented.

BTW, no "Soma" for you in first BR SOS meet. You messed up the thread format with your large image.

[Rahul M]

Has anybody seen the BS "Sita sings in blue". I am so disgusted after seeing it

the background commentory was the worst, narrated by some bunch of nincompoop’s who had no clue what they were talking. It was distasteful and least of all humorous
I am sure they would not take such leverage with other epics

Please send email to stop this non sense to
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dunno why you found it so distasteful. I watched it after your reference, full version is available on youtube and I really liked it, except the last bit where I think she went a little overboard. the background commentary was the part I liked most !
it's a different take and the background (discussions would be a better word) was not ultra-reverential but very realistic. how would 3 modern youths with a passing knowledge of ramayana discuss it ?
I would recommend it.

p.s. the films name is "Sita sings the blues", not in blues.

[RamaY]

^^ There are interpretations which say that the Buddha (gautama buddha) was not the one mentioned as avatar. Gautama was actually was born much later than the original one who was the avatar of Vishnu. This avatar was supposed to have given its teachings such that the actual meaning lay hidden in the layers. The later Buddhist teaching reflect the meaning on the surface or as some would say is very different from what really is. JMVHT

I too heard that.

B-ji, perhaps Gautama the Buddha achieved only self-realization and not god-realization and that is why the incarnations (I notice that it goes against my other point that realized souls may come back to live a detached life) ?

[Prem]

^^ There are interpretations which say that the Buddha (gautama buddha) was not the one mentioned as avatar. Gautama was actually was born much later than the original one who was the avatar of Vishnu. This avatar was supposed to have given its teachings such that the actual meaning lay hidden in the layers. The later Buddhist teaching reflect the meaning on the surface or as some would say is very different from what really is. JMVHT

Which Buddha is referred in Upanishad, earlier one/s or the Gautma ?

[brihaspati]

RamaY ji,
If "Soma" is a certain leaf - then it is amply available in "Gandhara"! Therefore available in North India! And if its cohol - no problem! Beyond that! Any excuse not to drink is good for me, in fact rather resent social dinners and luncheons because I have to "drink" to show that I am not from ME!

Prem ji,
"dating" is always a problem. My hunch is that the BG/Upanishad one is about an earlier Buddha. But it all brings us back to the timing/dating problems.

[Prem]

Dating, Soma, Timing, all reminder of past yuga, our ancestors must be very liberal.

[Pulikeshi]

^ Too much Soma & dating... back to illusory reality!

Riddle me this: If all is illusory, then why not the Vedas or Buddhist doctrines themselves?

on the other hand...

Riddle me this: If everything is particular and real, then can any higher knowledge or learning be perceived?

PS: The first question is Kumarila's argument to Samkara and the Buddhist mayavis
As I write up a summary, it still amazes me the mastery over epistemology
the SD thinkers exhibited - not seen till Kant, Hume, etc. much later.

[RamaY]

Let me try...

Riddle me this: If all is illusory, then why not the Vedas or Buddhist doctrines themselves?

If all Illusory, as Buddhism says, how do "You" exist and who is "knowing" about that illusory world?

On the other hand, SD says Vedas (sastra) are like a mirror (pramana = standard?); as you read them you are not learning anything beyond yourself. Vedas show you what your true form is - which is Atman; and how it exists - not separate from Param.

[brihaspati]

Just to clarify for "lurkers", I guess my learned friends here played a pun on "dating"! I did mean, that "dating" - in chronological sense - of supposed historical characters of Indian narratives is always a problem, because of "western" protests on straightforward Indian statements about their own history timelines.

On another note, was "dating" in the western social sense really unknown in ancient Indian? What about "Abhisaara" mentioned in so many texts? Not all "abhisaara" was "dating" in the sense of pre-fixed time to meet up between a potential/existing couple [some was definitely of the nature of the "hunt" or Friday night "pulling"]- but it did include also those cases where it was indeed about meeting up at a prefixed time and place.