India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 11 Apr 2010 10:48

IAF vice-chief prefers reverse engg to build defence systems

IAF Vice-Chief Air Marshal Pranab Kumar Barbora today suggested India should go the Chinese way by gathering technical data to produce defence equipment through reverse engineering.

Addressing a gathering at a convention of The Frontiers of Aeronautical Technologies and 61st AGM in Bangalore, Air Marshal Babora said, “Do reverse engineering. Don't be scared. Our neighbours are already doing it. If someone does not give you, and you want it, do reverse engineering.”

His comments, however, might not go down well with Americans and Europeans, who are finding it hard to protect their intellectual property rights.

Reverse engineering is a process of analysing a technology to ascertain how it was designed. The knowledge is then used to build the equipment or system or make improvements to it without using any physical part of the original.

Critical of the defence industry’s inability to be self-reliant in producing indegenous systems for defence and aerospace requirements, Air Marshal Barbora said, “We have got the best brains, but it has to be focussed to get the product.”

Prodding the defence establishment and manufacturers to go for joint ventures and get the technological knowhow of systems, Barbora said: “No country has produced fighter aircraft on its own. It has been a joint effort of like-minded countries.”

These comments are quite significant, especially in the wake of 'going indigenous' drive..

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Apr 2010 11:22

They got it all from the Nazi Germany.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 11 Apr 2010 13:23

Most things worth copying these days are so complicated that it takes 3X the effort to reverse engineer it as it does to build it from scratch yourself. At best you get a basic operational understanding of what the system does through disassembly.

Its not possible for instance to reverse engineer an Intel chip or a GE power station turbine to build a copy unless the supplier is willing to cooperate and you have experience R&D staff on hand. Not to mention the manufacturing base. Its not a case of running out with a pencil and tape measure in hand to take some measurements and then replicate it.

The only way to develop an R&D base is to have the IAF fund and manage high tech military projects contracted to indegenous Indian companies. But with the IAF buying all its sh&t from abroad, you can forget about that. Even things that would kick start the aerospace industry which are within grasp of small & medium sized Indian companies like UAVs and UCAVs are being purchased wholesale from abroad. It means India ends up subsidizing the R&D base of foreign countries.

IAF vice-chief needs to clue in.

negi · Post by **negi** » 11 Apr 2010 13:46

^ Thats not true reverse engineering is an important and intrinsic part of R&D itself , to rubbish it just because it comes from the IAF does not make any sense. People/entities which can re-invent the wheel can definitely reverse engineer one , the point being highlighted here is 'TIME' involved in delivering the said product is almost as critical as the deliverable itself it makes little sense to re-invent the stuff if there exist ways to cut short the time line by studying an existing product of similar type.

Inhouse R&D cannot be jump started with a flick of a wand in isolation , 'reverse engineering' has a critical role to play somewhere between 'license manufacturing/screwdriver giri' and 'indigenous design and development' . And btw the fact is our R&D instis in defense do their share of reverse engineering (look at the INSAS it incorporates features from AKM as well as the FN-FAL both in Indian service for quite some time ) . HAL engine division Bangalore and Koraput have been overhauling and manufacturing foreign engines for over couple of decades now but we still are struggling with the Kaveri so there is certainly something wrong with our approach to R&D in defense sector .

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 11 Apr 2010 15:01

IAF vice-chief prefers reverse engg to build defence systems

STATEMENT OF THE CENTURY, A GAME CHANGER

but it still depends upon how much do we really want to build..

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 11 Apr 2010 16:20

It is a MONUMENTAL statement - as it comes from a high ranked official in the current establishment!!I am not sure if it stems just from lack of belief in the current R&D setup or just pure frustration from lack of optimal results (and especially 'on time') which has crippled the workforce..

Whatever the reason it is of extreme proportions by any means, especially as India has never adopted or shown an inclination towards such an approach... If this can be actually achieved or not is just another debate altogether.. but the fact that one of the officials has shown an interest of such an approach would be paradigm shift in a one dimensional approach with stress on indigenization.

Reverse engineering!!! Weather this is a right approach or not the question. Till two days ago such a debate with regards to India adopting such an approach could not have be imagined. The world in general has condemned such an approach, as the one adopted by China for example. The Americans, Russians, etc are already struggling with intellectual property rights. We already know that the Russians have started refusing sale of high tech equipment to China citing this very approach.

From my point of view, there are should only be two approaches.. You either accept that you don't have the capability or the expertise or the resources or the funding to build - and "you buy." Or you use everything that you've got, invest heavily and work to the best of your ability to "build and invent." I don't think there is a middle ground. We have shown that we have the R&D expertise to come up with necessary goods like the Nag, IAC, Nuclear subs,.. We are able to address this issue but just not in a timely fashion. Its not to say that we have achieved everything we have set out to achieve..but its better to have tried and failed then not tried at all.. In which circumstances we can buy or go in for JV's. The last thing we want to do is to send wrong signals to the countries selling us high tech equipments. If we do adopt such an approach, we might never build an indigenous industry capable of surviving independently. We still want to be in a position to be able to buy systems we cant build.

Though the middle ground would seem far quicker.. Using reverse engineering or "announcing the adoption" of such an approach would only be counterproductive in a larger scheme of things. In the end if we do use such an approach we would eventually be boycotted the sale of high tech equipment and end up being pushed in the corner to go indigenous. Why not adopt self-reliance first up?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 11 Apr 2010 17:11

ACM Barbora's advice seems to be at odds with his approach. He would like us if necessary, to break to violate agreements and ignore suppliers' IPRs(like China), but he reveals this in a transparent manner to the media(very unlike China).

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 11 Apr 2010 21:31

Shuklaji,
academically and morally I agree with you but practically no major nation has succeded in the aerospace industry all by itself in the last century.

After the second world war US aerospace industry was greatly helped by german engineers and scientists. Wernher Van Braun and his groups contribution to the american effort can not be underestimated. Whether all of this was done in a strictly voluntary fashion is another interesting point.

When the red army arrested many german scientists and engineers at the end of the second world war I am sure stalin was able to pursuade them to contribute to the development of the soviet aerospace program.

Shuklaji world is not always strictly black or white , there are plenty of shades of gray in between. I am sure the good Air Marshall is not suggesting to steal and reverse engineer everything because that might be wrong and counter productive as you rightly said. But to give you one example if you are a accomplished surgeon yourself and want to perform a very complex operation and you have the chance to read about it and even observe it you can do this operation and not necessarily step by step in the same order.

Look at USA many of there best brains are imported( in a way everything is being a nation of immigrants). Hell the land they live on was forcefully taken from the indians.

Shuklaji this is not the world of Yudhistra and I am not suggesting that we become like Duryodhan but I hope you get the point.

negi · Post by **negi** » 11 Apr 2010 23:01

Viv S wrote:ACM Barbora's advice seems to be at odds with his approach. He would like us if necessary, to break to violate agreements and ignore suppliers' IPRs(like China), but he reveals this in a transparent manner to the media(very unlike China).

You guys seriously need to revisit your idea of reverse engineering , it does not mean violation of agreements , reverse engineering does not necessarily mean copying a weapons platform from head to toe but it can be anything from being able to produce spares for legacy aircraft or even be able to repair the items which undergo regular wear and tear.

Most of the countries who are perched high up in terms of state of the art of military technology have indulged in their bit of reverse engineering or spoon fed by their peers in the relevant area , Unkil and Russia both benefited big time from whatever was left of the Nazi germany war machinery both in terms of weapons platforms as well as the scientists/engineers who defected to these countries .

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 11 Apr 2010 23:02

Jacket of all trades...Must read....

A jacket (developed by Kranthi Kiran Vistakula) that keeps you cool during summers & warm during winters and it weighs only 650 grams.

It will be very very useful for our jawans. His company has tied up with Tata Advanced Materials to supply these jackets to IA. They have already given 5 variants to IA for trials.

http://epaper.hindustantimes.com/Articl ... 002&mode=1

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 11 Apr 2010 23:15

negi wrote:
Viv S wrote:ACM Barbora's advice seems to be at odds with his approach. He would like us if necessary, to break to violate agreements and ignore suppliers' IPRs(like China), but he reveals this in a transparent manner to the media(very unlike China).
You guys seriously need to revisit your idea of reverse engineering , it does not mean violation of agreements , reverse engineering does not necessarily mean copying a weapons platform from head to toe but it can be anything from being able to produce spares for legacy aircraft or even be able to repair the items which undergo regular wear and tear.

There is nothing legal that we have so far refrained from doing. In context that he put it, he was clearly referring to a China-style approach where the results are important the process isn't. Which right or wrong, isn't an idea that needs to broached to the media.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 11 Apr 2010 23:22

sunny y wrote: A jacket (developed by Kranthi Kiran Vistakula) that keeps you cool during summers & warm during winters and it weighs only 650 grams.
It will be very very useful for our jawans. His company has tied up with Tata Advanced Materials to supply these jackets to IA. They have already given 5 variants to IA for trials.

http://epaper.hindustantimes.com/Articl ... 002&mode=1

Its interesting but I'm guessing its probably not cost-effective for a large scale acquisition besides the reliability being a question mark. Maybe the special forces would be interested because of lower weight and smaller volume.

However that pans out, the fact that innovation is picking up in India is heartening.

negi · Post by **negi** » 11 Apr 2010 23:24

Viv S wrote: There is nothing legal that we have so far refrained from doing.

This is empty rhetoric of little significance here so lets keep such stuff out .
If we haven't missed out on anything then why is the chief complaining , where are our indigenous weapons platforms ?
His comments need to be analyzed given the state of affairs of our MIC .

In context that he put it, he was clearly referring to a China-style approach where the results are important the process isn't. Which right or wrong, isn't an idea that needs to broached to the media.

That is your judgement/opinion and that too based on your idea of reverse engineering , heck its such a broad term we don't even know what exactly he was hinting at , however the point is as far as weapons platforms are concerned services have their own constraints/compulsions with regards to the time frame under which they are delivered , what he is emphasizing on is to do what it takes to deliver the products in time .

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Apr 2010 23:49

Viv S wrote:ACM Barbora's advice seems to be at odds with his approach. He would like us if necessary, to break to violate agreements and ignore suppliers' IPRs(like China), but he reveals this in a transparent manner to the media(very unlike China).

he is not the ACM.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 11 Apr 2010 23:52

Rahul M wrote:
Viv S wrote:ACM Barbora's advice seems to be at odds with his approach. He would like us if necessary, to break to violate agreements and ignore suppliers' IPRs(like China), but he reveals this in a transparent manner to the media(very unlike China).
he is not the ACM.

Of course. P.V. Naik. Need to watch the boo-boos.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 12 Apr 2010 00:03

negi wrote: This is empty rhetoric of little significance here so lets keep such stuff out .
If we haven't missed out on anything then why is the chief complaining , where are our indigenous weapons platforms ?

Lots of reasons. But, I don't think not employing legal reverse engineering is one of them.

That is your judgement/opinion and that too based on your idea of reverse engineering , heck its such a broad term we don't even know what exactly he was hinting at , however the point is as far as weapons platforms are concerned services have their own constraints/compulsions with regards to the time frame under which they are delivered , what he is emphasizing on is to do what it takes to deliver the products in time .

Maybe you're right, but it does sound like he's talking of extraction of technology from imported equipment being acceptable. Its probably not something he'd say were he reading off a prepared proof-read script, so I'm not reading too much into it.

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 12 Apr 2010 00:23

I am not sure what the whole noise is about.

Barbora is just expressing his opinion that ends are more important than the means.
He is not the guy charged with making the stuff. So why should this statement carry
so much weight?? If it had been DRDO chief or ISRO chief, that would have been
something

As far as China goes, Teer (poster on ACM) commented that they import their weapons
and yet publicize their own developments. While he was speaking specifically about
China's latest import of S-300 PMU-2 vs HQ-9, he did have a valid point.

Regards,
Ashish.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 12 Apr 2010 04:40

Misraji wrote:why should this statement carry so much weight??

Coz it comes from a highly respected, currently serving, high ranked Air Force official on a public forum.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 12 Apr 2010 04:45

snahata wrote: I am sure the good Air Marshall is not suggesting to steal

Neither did I imply that, he said or meant that at any stage.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Apr 2010 15:59

I don't know whether this was earlier posted,but if not a v.intersting interview with the editor of the IDR,Capt.Verma,on several aspects of defence procurement,evolution of warfighting,future force patterns-JCS,def. offsets,etc.A hard-hitting interview.

http://www.8ak.in/8ak_india_defence_new ... eview.html

Some excerpts,
"MOD is full of babudom,we need to put in serving officers there ".

"Govt. should start supporting JVs,private labs as it supports DRDO.."

On JVs,"China does not have this option as sensitive dual-tech is banned to China,not for India.." We have options from both west and east.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 12 Apr 2010 16:19

That statement might have been totally out of frustration. But it is true..

Firstly, we have shed our moral high ground. Reverse engineering does not make you cheat. Less than a handful of countries can reverse engineer stuff, even if they choose to. We should start taking pride in it.

Secondly, As ramana said

They got it all from the Nazi Germany.

reverse engineering is a temporary trend that gets forgotten over time. Americans and Russians are ahead of Germany in plenty of areas today - can germans stake any claim on present day american/russian achievements? Reverse Engineering is the only real solution to decades of technology denial by developed nations. Once you get to their level of technology (like China is now) it is very possible that you will surpass them in due time.

Speaking of China, the fact that Russians are not selling their latest and greatest to them is not affecting their phsyche. Multiple denials that China has endured in the last few decades have actually made them less dependant on the west.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 13 Apr 2010 12:36

BHEL units to up biz from Defence

The units — Tiruchirappalli (Tiruchy) and Ranipet — are planning to produce battle tanks, missile launchers and water desalination facilities for submarines. It may be noted that the Ranipet unit also supplies fuel tankers for space exploration projects.

...BHEL is working on supplying heavy duty 127-mm guns to the Navy. BHEL supplies 76-mm guns to Navy.
...
The unit (Ranipet), which used to manufacture missile launchers for the Navy, started discussions for the same and for desalination water facility for sub-marines for the Navy. “We have tested one such facility in Vishakapatnam and was successful. We are now planning to showcase this model to the Navy for submarines,” said Chandrababu.
...
He noted that the Ranipet unit has received Rs 3 crore in order from the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) to build fuel tanks for the Chandrayaan II project. These tanks will be supplied by the end of the year. The unit has already supplied two tanks to ISRO.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 14 Apr 2010 21:58

India Hires Belarus for Defence Research

India and Belarus are fostering greater ties as Belarus will be conducting $2 million worth of research for the Indian Defence Ministry in the area of metallurgy. The State Science and Manufacturing Power Metallurgy Association, part of the National Academy of Sciences of Belarus, will be undertaking the research work for India.

As per the arrangement between India and Belarus, Belarusian scientists will conduct a survey in the development of new powder metallurgy materials. Both the nations have signed five contracts for two and a half years each. Belarusian scientists aim to enhance the properties of cast alloys by means of adding various types of powder. The durability of these alloys as well as their endurance against corrosion can be hiked by almost 20 per cent.

According to Belarusian scientists, the crystallisation technique used in the alloy can be highly useful since they can lighten constructions and reduce energy consumption. In addition, its application in the aviation and aeronautic sector is also significant since it can aid the design of an aircraft by improving the properties of cast alloys and other metallurgical advancements.

In October last year, bilateral ties between India and Belarus improved by increasing the defence and military related business and by considering the forging of long-term partnerships between institutions like Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and the National Academy of Sciences of Belarus. The Indian Minister of State for Defence M.M. Pallam Raju held wide ranging talks with the Belarus Defence Minister Colonel-General Leonid Semenovich Maltsev, in the capital Minsk during the four-day visit to Belarus.

Besides, India is also looking at Belarus for supplies of defence equipment and spares, refurbishment of missile systems and joint development of military hardware including opto-electronics and gunpowder.

In 2008, the DRDO signed a memorandum with the National Academy of Sciences of Belarus to set up a Joint Research and Development Centre at Minsk. DRDO had also signed contracts worth 2.6 million dollars with various institutes under the National Academy of Sciences of Belarus for joint R&D of technologies in Laser and Powder Metallurg

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 15 Apr 2010 05:58

HAL update: Programs, Finance, new MD for Bangalore Complex, Rolls Royce JV

14 Apr 2010 HAL PR/8ak: Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) has announced a 10% growth in sales for the year 2009-10 at Rs. 11,415 cr (~US$2.6b) and 12% growth in Profit before Tax at Rs 2,617 cr. The order book has increased by over Rs 12,000cr during the year with new orders for domestic and export projects.

One of the major achievements for the Company during the year has been the maiden flight on the Technology Demonstrator of the indigenously designed Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) took place on 29 Mar 2010. A new military variant, ALH Mk III, was introduced during the year. This is powered by the Shakti engine and is intended for the IAF /Army to meet their high altitude operational requirements. This is being followed by an armed variant ALH MK IV which is presently undergoing weapon trials. HAL expects to sell up to 175 LCHs to the armed forces.

HAL has also ventured into design and development of a Light Utility Helicopter which gives HAL an edge in offering total solution to its customers in light helicopters in the 2 to 6 ton category.

On development in Fixed Wing category HAL stated:

* The Intermediate Jet Trainer project progressed well with successful integration of the new Russian engine AL-55I. Operational clearance for the IJT is expected to be achieved shortly. In parallel, the first batch of Limited Series Production aircraft is also getting ready for delivery to IAF. Follow on orders for IJT has already been received at Rs 6,180 Crs.
* Preliminary studies are underway to launch development of a new indigenous Basic Turboprop trainer to replace the HPT-32 aircraft.
* HAL secured an order in Dec 2009 for DARIN III upgrade of Jaguar aircraft worth Rs 3100 Crores & the program has been well initiated.

Business Standard quoted Wing Commander Arun Kumar Sinha saying that HAL Kanpur will start building an improvised version of AN-32 aircraft as a multi-role aircraft for armed forces and private carriers.

In late March, Rolls Royce (RR) announced that it would set up a new company, jointly owned 50:50 by RR and HAL, to manufacture compressor shroud rings. Construction of a new purpose-built production facility, incorporating the latest in modern manufacturing techniques, would commence later this year with component production beginning in 2012. RR's Adour engines are used on BAE's Hawk Advanced Jet Trainers and on the IAF's Jaguars.

Sify reports that the HAL's engine division in Sunabeda Orissa now has a separate overhauling department for Sukhoi-30 MKI fighter aircraft with the long term plans of manufacturing AL-31FP engines for Sukhoi-30 KLI aircraft under license.

And taking up the various challenges ahead, Mr D Balasunder (see photo) has been appointed Managing Director, Bangalore Complex, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL)y. Prior to this he was the General Manager of HAL’s Aerospace Division.

Most of HAL’s Divisions in Bangalore, now comes under his purview, which include Aircraft, Overhaul, Foundry & Forge, Engines, Aerospace, IMGT, Airport Services and Limited Series Production (LSP) of LCA as well as IJT. He said, “the focus will be on the HAWK production as additional orders are expected. Concurrent production of LCA and Darin-III upgradation of Jaguar, are other key areas”, he added.

Hailing from Karnataka, Mr Balasunder joined HAL’s Engine Division as Chief Supervisor in 1975, after his M. Tech from I.I.T Madras. During his 35 years of career in HAL, he held various key posts and was General Manager heading the IMGT, Helicopter and Aerospace Divisions. His expertise includes price negotiation for 159 Advanced Light Helicopters (Dhruv) with MoD, rolling out of first ALH with Glass Cockpit (IADS) to Army and record supply or 8 ALHs in 2006-07, making ALH’s participation in International Air Shows, substantial reduction in debtors 2006-07, implementation of ERP system in Division, notable export thrust of ALH in the steep global competition.

But not all is well. Analysts predict a huge capacity crunch as they feel that HAL is taking up too many projects, with a fear that they do not want the private sector or anyone else to enter this airspace. Air Marshal P. K. Barbora has previously criticised HAL and at a recent conference said that India needs a national technology plan for aeronautics. Centre for Asia-Pacific Aviation reports that India is falling behind in commercial aviation and was not moved by DRDO's Prahalada's announcement that they would invest over US$11 billion in this sector in the next 5 years.

sum · Post by **sum** » 15 Apr 2010 09:06

India and Belarus are fostering greater ties as Belarus will be conducting $2 million worth of research for the Indian Defence Ministry in the area of metallurgy. The State Science and Manufacturing Power Metallurgy Association, part of the National Academy of Sciences of Belarus, will be undertaking the research work for India.

As per the arrangement between India and Belarus, Belarusian scientists will conduct a survey in the development of new powder metallurgy materials. Both the nations have signed five contracts for two and a half years each. Belarusian scientists aim to enhance the properties of cast alloys by means of adding various types of powder. The durability of these alloys as well as their endurance against corrosion can be hiked by almost 20 per cent.

According to Belarusian scientists, the crystallisation technique used in the alloy can be highly useful since they can lighten constructions and reduce energy consumption. In addition, its application in the aviation and aeronautic sector is also significant since it can aid the design of an aircraft by improving the properties of cast alloys and other metallurgical advancements.

IIRC, should have been done in the 90s when Soviet was dis-integrating and scientists were selling their brains to the highest bidder.

Anyways, better late then never.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 15 Apr 2010 15:10

DRDO developing laser-based bomb disposal kit

DRDO licences technology from CSMCRI to develop bio-diesel

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 16 Apr 2010 05:55

DRDO Newsletter for April 2010

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 16 Apr 2010 07:10

From the April 2010 newsletter posted above:

This year,there has been a lot of progress in DRDO programmes in many areas like INS Arihant, Ballistic Missile Defence, Agni-III, LCA variants for Air Force Navy, Kaveri engine (suitable for Medium Combat Aircraft and UCAVs), Nirbhaya engine, production of Rohini Radar and 50 MBT-Arjun tanks, Pinaka, NBC vehicle, lightweight composite armour, submarine escape suite, lifesupport systems, and H1-N1 detection kit. Strategic programmes have brought DRDO a lot of visibility.

Naval Science & Technological Laboratory (NSTL), Visakhapatnam, h a s d e s i g n e d a n d developed first of its kind
I n f r a r e d S i g n a t u r e - suppression Devices, which has been accepted for induction in the Indian Navy's latest stealth ships. The system significantly reduces the infrared signature levels of these naval platforms

prataparudra · Post by **prataparudra** » 16 Apr 2010 08:16

It appears all the projects by DRDO are basically a catch-up to the rest of the world.

Is DRDO simultaneously working on frontier projects? usa developed air-borne laser to shoot out missiles at various stages.

Are we gonna wait couple of decades before we start work on this? When can we stop playing catchup? I'm aware this is asking too much but we are always interested in indigenization.....

But we should also make stuff that will lead to Americanization, russianization of INDIAN designs...Do we have ANY projects like that?

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 16 Apr 2010 11:51

prataparudra wrote:It appears all the projects by DRDO are basically a catch-up to the rest of the world.

Is DRDO simultaneously working on frontier projects? usa developed air-borne laser to shoot out missiles at various stages.

Are we gonna wait couple of decades before we start work on this? When can we stop playing catchup? I'm aware this is asking too much but we are always interested in indigenization.....

But we should also make stuff that will lead to Americanization, russianization of INDIAN designs...Do we have ANY projects like that?

You have to learn how to walk before you run. Even before you start working on these frontier technologies, you need to achieve the technical man power needed, you need to put in place an industrial complex/markets that can use this man power and you need to put in place consistent policies that promote innovation.

A general whine about what we have not yet done is putting the cart before the horse.

Indians have gotten some things right, though others obviously need improvement. Most of these things are also pretty well known, though I am sad to say that progress is slow and unsteady. Why not build some pressure on the powers that be to solve these problems?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 20 Apr 2010 09:15

Ajai Shukla's take on the offsets policy

Move over artillery gun deals… stamp paper… fodder and other scams! India’s pinnacle of subterfuge will soon belong to a new hustle called offsets on which pliant Indian defence manufacturers are set to ride to riches.

“The implications of this are frightening,” a senior defence ministry official apprehends. “A few years down the line, all defence kickbacks will be coming through the route of offsets. Currently, there is tight control over the money that foreign companies can bring in. Now Indian offset partners will become the agents who pay out bribes. That is why so many offset deals are being tied up with small and medium companies.”

Other ingenious stings are being fashioned out of offset partnerships. One foreign company has already asked its Indian offsets partner to start paying all the expenses for its executives visiting India. The costs of tickets, hotels, meals and entertainment will all be adjusted through over-invoicing offset supplies.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... am/392456/

Illustrates the futility of relying on offsets to build up a domestic R&D base.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Apr 2010 10:54

Viv S wrote:
Illustrates the futility of relying on offsets to build up a domestic R&D base.

Actually Col Shukla is batting for this

Making all this feasible is the MoD’s inertia in setting up the systems needed for tightly monitoring offset transactions. Currently a small, undermanned section — the Defence Offsets Facilitation Agency (DOFA) — handles everything relating to offsets. A section of the MoD argues for setting up an expanded, high-power, multi-agency Defence Offsets Management Agency (DOMA) that is equipped to minutely evaluate the impending flood of offsets proposals; keep a running account of banked offsets; and interpret and clarify offsets policy. But South Block continues to shy away from framing a holistic offsets policy.

How is the article about the futility to offsets?

Only suggestions on how to improve the implementation of policy.

-----------------------------

PS> Always a good idea to actually read articles before posting them.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 20 Apr 2010 21:11

Sanku wrote:
Actually Col Shukla is batting for this

I though that a section of the MoD was batting for that, guess I must have misread it. Yet more regulation, red tape and bureaucratic oversight, just what we needed.

How is the article about the futility to offsets?

Only suggestions on how to improve the implementation of policy.

To quote from the article - "Ministry of Defence, which has artlessly authored a scamster’s delight called the Defence Offset Procedure".

The comment was mine, about the article being illuminating. And the point wasn't that offset are futile, it was relying on them to develop an domestic base in R&D is futile. That apart, offsets are a good idea. After all, supplying curtains, chairs and cutlery does contribute to the domestic economy and foreign executives visiting India do help the tourism industry.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Apr 2010 21:22

Viv S wrote: The comment was mine, about the article being illuminating. And the point wasn't that offset are futile, it was relying on them to develop an domestic base in R&D is futile. That apart, offsets are a good idea. After all, supplying curtains, chairs and cutlery does contribute to the domestic economy and foreign executives visiting India do help the tourism industry.

Which point you have repeated many times, all the while expecting us to believe your word over the combined word of CII+MoD+other branches of GoI not to mention plain common sense and our own better judgment as well as all available data on ground.

I was hoping that you have more meaty points to buttress your arguments, yet all you do is yank a article from Col Shukla and quote out of context well cant be helped I suppose.

No one says that the policy is perfect, but shooting yourself in head for a headache is cure few advocate.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 20 Apr 2010 22:03

Sanku wrote: Which point you have repeated many times, all the while expecting us to believe your word over the combined word of CII+MoD+other branches of GoI not to mention plain common sense and our own better judgment as well as all available data on ground.

Well the CII for some reason has been asking for the FDI cap to bumped up. The proposal for 100% FDI came from a branch of the GoI. And had we relied on 'plain common sense' and 'better judgement' we'd still be stuck at the 'Hindu rate of growth'. What is this 'all available data' that you refer to?

I was hoping that you have more meaty points to buttress your arguments, yet all you do is yank a article from Col Shukla and quote out of context well cant be helped I suppose.

Its wishful thinking to say that foreign companies will come here hand-hold the domestic industry through to maturity(while the govt. fixes the system to benefit DPSUs) and then pack up and leave.

No one says that the policy is perfect

True. The description 'scamster's delight' is probably indicative of the fact that the policy falls just short of perfection.

, but shooting yourself in head for a headache is cure few advocate.

Is it better to keep hemorrhaging money( defence spending estimated at $100 billion in a decade) in arms imports. Preventing a foreign company from opening an Indian subsidiary or JV and becoming a part of the domestic industry, doesn't help solve the problem.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Apr 2010 22:18

Viv S wrote:
Well the CII for some reason has been asking for the FDI cap to bumped up.

Link?

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 20 Apr 2010 22:46

Sanku wrote:
Viv S wrote:
Well the CII for some reason has been asking for the FDI cap to bumped up.
Link?

CII-KPMG report.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 20 Apr 2010 23:08

Viv S wrote: CII-KPMG report.

Link and quote?

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 21 Apr 2010 05:32

BEL might go it alone on NVGs

Bangalore-based Bharat Electronics Ltd (BEL) in all probability might go it alone in supplying night vision goggles (NVGs) to Indian Army. This comes in the wake of news reports that US-based IIT Corp is in talks with BEL for supplying BMS to the military. Speaking to a private TV channel, BEL MD AK. Dutt refused to give out much details on the same saying: "Nothing has been finalized. No contracts signed. We might go alone," he said.

hmmm.. If making NVG was so easy, BEL would have done that by now, chances are they will probably modify the existing ones and with some R&D BEL might just be able to pull this off from their Musharaff

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 22 Apr 2010 01:02

Gujarat to host dedicated defence SEZ in India

Published on: April 21, 2010 at 13:05

AHMEDABAD (Commodity Online): In order to capitalize the emerging opportunities in the industrial sector, the Gujarat government is planning to set up a dedicated Special Economic Zone (SEZ) for defence supply industries, as informed by the state industries minister Saurabh Patel.

The minister informed during his address at the fifth seminar on Emerging Opportunities in Defence Sector, organized by state industries department and the Gujarat Chapter of industrial body, Confederation of Indian Industries (CII) at Ahmedabad on Tuesday, 20 April, 2010.

Speaking at the event, Patel stated, “To capitalize on the emerging opportunities, the Government of Gujarat is planning to set up an exclusive SEZ (Special Economic Zone) for defence supply industries. For providing a thrust to the defence sector in Gujarat, the central and the state governments will work in tandem for better coordination.”

The seminar was organized in the context of the major reform in the Defence Procurement Policy of the Union government, which provides opportunities for the direct participation by Indian Industry in defence tenders on a level playing field with the PSUs. Currently, 70% of India’s defence products are being sourced from abroad, but now India is aiming to reverse the trend by manufacturing 70% of its defence equipment in India.

Arvind Agarwal, VC and MD, GIDC, Govt. of Gujarat said, “The government of India has received 12,000 IEMs for this sector out of which 8 lac crore of investments will be in Gujarat. The Government shall provide huge opportunities for the Small, Medium and Large scale manufacturers with the right type of facilities for manufacturing precision parts and equipment to become key players in India’s defence requirements. India with its skill-intensive manufacturing capabilities and world class IT base has the right ingredients to become a key player in the global defence supply chain”.

http://www.commodityonline.com/news/Guj ... 5-3-1.html