Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2010

[Carl_T]

Question - in this forum we talk about how Taliban was created by TSPint, but if the TSPA is busy attacking and killing Talibs and Pakhtuns, can they really be considered to be close? Or is it more likely that different factions withing the TSPA are pulling towards different directions - some supporting the Talibs, others not as much?


Furthermore, is it still reasonable to assume that TSP intelligence has knowledge of where UBL might be? Accounts say he's "protected" and "loved" in that area...but I'm thinking:
[confused rambling]
- TSP wants Unkil out of Afg asap. Handing over UBL will ensure it, and of course Taliban would resist. Some TSPA factions wouldn't want to hand him over, but others might. Kayani, being a "traditionalist" sees his prime enemy to be India, and his prime desired outcome is to strengthen his position against us. Nothing seems to suggest that Kayani is any sort of extremist in the way of some army personnel who might support the Talibs, so he would not have any vested interest there. So if factions in the TSPA have links to Taliban and UBL, I think Kayani could leverage that in order to get military goodies to strengthen his position, but that is not happening at all, as the US doesn't give TSP anything really good. If he cannot use that leverage, I'm thinking that maybe ISI etc. really have no clue about UBL. [/confused rambling]

[surinder]

I noticed a Paki version of Macaulayputra language in the video. University of "the Punjab".

The Brits who discovered that Punjab means five rivers thought in English and decided that it would be an English grammatical error to say "five rivers" without adding the article "the" at the beginning making it "The five rivers" - hence "The Punjab".

The "The Punjab" terminology had been vexing me for years. Thanks for explaining where it came from.

Going back on that video, it is funny that the lady professor (Shaista) is complaining about the Talibunization of the University. TSP, especially Punjabis, found nothing wrong in Talibums in Afghanistan. Their press was full of articles praising Taliban, their justice, piety, and security brought by them. When NWFP got talibunnized, they were OK too. When Talibs went to Srinagar, they were ecstatic. When Talibumism shows up in Lahore, there is panic. By the way, the lady did not have her head covered, all "versions"/"Brands" of Islam ban a women showing hair. Most also demand a niqab. She did not have one either. Also, the Talibums are quite justified in disturbing Music classes, Music is banned in Islaam. She shouldn't be complaining, this is just Islaam.

[shiv]

Surinder the lady also had what appeared to be a pallu (from a sari) on the left shoulder. A dupatta should have covered both shoulders.

These are the people who want more islam when they look at India and less Islam when they look at the Talibums. The question of course is what is "Less islam and More Islam? There is only one Islam and the talibums claim they represent that no?

[Gagan]

OTOH I'd venture to say that self-congratulatory measurements of ourselves against Pakistan has the detrimental effect of distracting us from the threat of the greater powers lurking behind Pakistan... which is of course their very intention.

Just a thought.

I agree,
to compare oneself against the depths that Pakistan has sunk to is futile and counterproductive. The real sizing up has to be the Chinese and then the Americans. Their positive achievements are worthy goals to pursue.

From a security POV, Pakistan poses a constant and direct challenge to India's security and diplomatic establishment, more than the others do on a daily basis. Here one might point out that the others can still be dealt with with civility, whereas history proves that only unsheathing the sword and the stick has the required calming effect on the leaders of the land of the pure.

Our leaders are living in fools paradise if they think that mere diplomacy and sweet nothings will bring the belligerents in Pakistan to reason. Only a threat to inflict severe loss of H&D to their Army and its Punjabi Generals can ever be effective.

[SSridhar]

Surinder, you raise the question as to why these intellectuals are bothered only when Taliban show up in Lahore or Islamabad but welcome them when they show up in Afghanistan or Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa or Srinagar.

The current CM of the Punjab answered that a couple of weeks back. He said that the Punjab Government was in synch with the Taliban because both of them were against the Americans and so the Taliban should not attack a friendly place like the Punjab. What he left unsaid was that the Punjab Government was also in synch with the Taliban policy vis-a-vis India.

But, the undiluted hatred he has shown against India brackets Shahbaz Sharif along with the Punjabi Taliban component of AQAM. That leaves only Israel from the equation which is anyway unanimously accepted as the 'root cause' of the problem and the whole of Pakistan - Sunni, Shi'a, Ahmedi - is united on that score. So, ultimately it boils down to hatred for a some sections of people of Planet Earth that the Muslims of Pakistan believe.

[surinder]

Shiv, these people want more Islam for others, less for themselves. When it hits home, you hear strange expressions "Their version of Islam", or "Their brand of Islam". The lady also uses that. Why does Islaam have versions and brands. These people are scared, very scared. They are grabbing straws to somehow nto live the Islaamic life, which they so gloriously claimed earlier to yearn for.

When the Paki Muslim lived with Hindus, they yearned for more Islam, now they can have it, and they are terrified. As you had dileneated in those legendary threads on Islamism, Islam is not an easy religion to live. Its numerous restrictions and pabandis make life hell, or at the very least sterile boring existence. I have said this before, the best cure for Islam is more Islam. Living with kaafirs is a huge bonus for mussalims, they can vocalize all pious thoughts and yearnings, without having to live it. They can enjoy movies, arts, music, looking at women etc. They will torment kaafirs, but when given the chance to live Islam (any brand or version will do, by the way) they balk.

Pakjabis are basically fun-loving people (they are at heart Punjabis). This Islaam Wislaam is not something they can do. Unkey bass ki baat nahin hai.

By they way, I thought the lady was wearing a dupatta ... camera had panned to her lap and I could see a dupatta. I could be wrong. They women looked strange, and had the nose ring, which looked incongruous.

[Sudip]

Interesting article about the history of Pukistan kanstitusan

Pakistan's Constitution

[Philip]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 50706.html

Excerpt:

Caught in the crossfire of Pakistan's secret war

[arun]

The US is mighty peeved with some citizens of its Major Non NATO Ally, the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Press release by the US Embassy in Islamabad on Lt. Gen.(retd) Hamid Gul’s statement that the US was involved in the assassination of former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto:

Correction For The Record: False Statements Concerning Assassination of Former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto

April 21, 2010

Islamabad - During the past week, on Express and Aaj-TV, Lt. Gen. (retd) Hamid Gul has repeatedly asserted the outrageous and baseless claim that the United States Government was involved in the assassination of former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto.

The United States rejects this, and other false allegations regularly made by Lt. Gen. (ret) Gul about its policies and activities. At the time of Ms. Bhutto's murder, the U.S. swiftly and publicly condemned the act and called for an independent investigation.

Despite the fact that Mr. Gul gave no proof for his allegations against the United States, his statements were not challenged by any of the TV hosts who invited him to their programs. TV stations and the anchors have the same obligations as other journalists -- to present the public with balanced views, to question unsubstantiated allegations by guests and to reject incitement.

Clicky

Press release by the US Embassy in Islamabad on the Jamaat-e-Islami’s claim that the US was involved in the suicide bombing of their rally in Peshawar:

Correction For The Record: False Statements Concerning Peshawar Terrorist Attack

"Absurd, baseless allegations ... show contempt for attack victims."

April 21, 2010

Islamabad - On Monday, April 19, terrorists attacked a peaceful Jamaat-e-Islami demonstration in Peshawar, killing 24 and wounding 45 party activists and two police officers. The U.S. issued a statement condemning the attack and expressed our sympathy with the victims and their families.

However, on Tuesday, April 20 and again today, Jamaat-e-Islami leadership appeared in the media alleging that the United States was responsible for the attack.

The United States rejects such absurd, baseless allegations. The violent extremists who committed the vicious terror attacks in Peshawar have made it clear that they seek to kill as many innocent Pakistani citizens, soldiers and law enforcement officials as possible. Those who attempt to divert public condemnation of extremist violence show contempt for this week's victims, including their own party members, Pakistani officials, and school children.

Clicky

And over at the US State Department in Washington DC:

Philip J. Crowley
Assistant Secretary
Daily Press Briefing
Washington, DC
April 21, 2010

…………………. I just want to echo two statements put out this week by our Embassy in Pakistan. These statements rejected recent public comments by a former ISI official and by some members of Jamaat-e-Islami. General Gul made an outrageous suggestion that the United States was responsible for the assassination of Benazir Bhutto. And Jamaat claimed the U.S. was somehow responsible for the terrible attack on their peaceful demonstration in Peshawar on Monday.

Such comments are baseless and irresponsible and should be examined by Pakistani media objectively. The United States and Pakistan are fighting and our citizens are dying at the hands of these common enemies. The extremists do not discriminate between striking Pakistani and American targets and continue to claim innocent lives of people from all walks of life from the peaceful Jamaat protestors to Benazir Bhutto.

And we are encouraged by the recent trends in Pakistani public opinion that recognize the value of the ongoing strategic dialogue and ever-improving cooperation between the United States and Pakistan. Many people in Pakistan recognize the positive tone and substance in the U.S.-Pakistan relationship.

Our strategic partnership involves working together to address the needs of the Pakistani people and the security of Pakistan and the region. The United States and Pakistan, together, can and must take a stand against those who would serve as apologists for terrorists. In the best spirit of a free press, Pakistani editors and news makers should strive to highlight the irresponsibility of unfounded statements like these that are designed to divide rather than unite us.

And with that, I’ll take your questions.

Press Briefing

[SSridhar]

Interesting article about the history of Pukistan kanstitusan

Pakistan's Constitution

I can add a lot more information on the 'Constitution Tamasha' in Pakistan. Here are some. Please read this in conjunction with the above fine article by Jayshree Bajoria.

Pakistan is undoubtedly the most 'constitutionalized' country because Pakistan’s Constitution has already been written seven times ! Very befitting the supposedly a 'stickler for constitutional propriety' Jinnah. That, it is as yet an unsatisfactory instrument is another matter, though. I have not included here the Constitutional Amendments that get passed every now and then that mutilate the very character and make wholesale changes almost amounting to a new Constitution, as just happened with the 18th Amendment.

1956 Constitution (The first two)
The first constitution was adopted on March 23, 1956, the day coinciding with the day of the Lahore Resolution demanding a separate nation on Mar. 23, 1940. The Constitution took so many years because the West Pakistanis feared that a Constitution would allow the majority East Pakistanis more say in governance and kept on delaying the matter. The First Prime Minister, Mr. Liaquat Ali Khan’s role in this was significant.

How the Constitution was created is another story by itself, as is anything in the Land of the Purest. The first Constituent Assembly lasted a little over seven years from Aug. 11, 1947 until Oct. 24, 1954. The Governor General Ghulam Mohammed dissolved the Constituent Assembly for lack of progress, though it was in the final stages, on Constitution making though the real reason was he did not like the Constitutional provisions circumscribing his own powers. Ever since that time, the tension between the Prime Minister and the President has persisted without a satisfactory resolution. Anyway, Ghulam Mohammed then convened an arbitrary Constituent Convention which drafted the second Constitution of Pakistan in 1956 and adopted on March 23, 1956.

The new constitution was based on the “Objectives Resolution” earlier adopted on Mar. 12, 1949, within six months of Jinnah’s death and over the strong objections of the minorities, in the then Constituent Assembly. All Muslims voted for it and all non-Muslims voted against it and thus it was carried by a margin of 21 “for” and 10 “against”. This was the polarisation that only became deeper as the years progressed. The “Objectives Resolution” was a set of Islamic ideals recommended by a group of ulemas formed expressly for that purpose by Liaquat Ali Khan. It said, among other things, "Wherein adequate provision shall be made for the minorities to freely profess and practice their religions and develop their cultures; "

General Zia-ul Haq’s innocuous-sounding Revival of the Constitution Order 14 of circa 1985 introduced an Annexure to the above which removed the word ‘freely’ by a sleight of hand.

The 1956 Constitution was abrogated by Gen. Ayub Khan on Oct. 7, 1958 with the imposition of Martial Law.

1962 Constitution (The next two)
Thus, the very first Constitution which was about to see light in circa 1954 that was abruptly dismissed by Ghulam Mohammed and the subsequent 1956 Constitution, second in the long list, that was abrogated by Ayub Khan, bit the dust. Ayub Khan then promised to draw up a new Constitution in keeping with the ‘social and economic conditions’ and by ‘consulting the people and the best brains’. He then assembled another Constitution Committee which submitted its report to Ayub Khan on May 6, 1961. The Chief Martial Law Administrator, Gen Ayub Khan was again unhappy with the new Constitution and he summarily rejected that. He then formulated his own Constitution, The Fourth Constitution, which was then forced on the hapless nation in June, 1962.

In any case, Field Marshal Ayub Khan was not one to be too enamoured of democracy. Ayub Khan famously remarked in his radio address to the nation after deposing Iskander Mirza, “Democracy cannot work in a hot climate. To have democracy we must have a cold climate as in Britain.”

Thus, two more Constitutions were drafted in Ayub's tenure. The Fourth Constitution of 1962 lasted a while, for as long as Ayub Khan was in power.

Fifth, Sixth and Seventh Constitutions
Ayub Khan's Constitution, fourth in the illustrious list of Constitution drafting efforts, was later rescinded by Gen. Yahya Khan who usurped power from F.M. Ayub Khan . He introduced an Interim Presidential Constitution (!) in March, 1970 which thus became the country’s fifth Constitution. Gen. Yahya Khan himself outlined the new Sixth Constitution on Dec. 16, 1971 even as his commander Gen. A.A.K. ‘Tiger’ Niazi and his 93000 troops were unconditionally surrendering to India in Dhaka. The Seventh Constitution was promulgated on Aug. 14, 1973 by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto.

That then, Ladies and Gentlemen, is the hilarious sequence of Constitutions in the banana Islamic republic that goes by the name of Pakistan.

[arun]

Results of the BBC World Service Poll conducted by PIPA of nearly 30,000 people in 28 countries who were interviewed between November 2009 and February 2010 show the Islamic Republic of Pakistan in unflattering light.

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan has the second highest unfavourable rating in the survey (51%) trailing Iran who have the highest unfavourably rating (56%). This is followed by Israel with the third highest unfavourable rating in the survey (50%).

The Islamic Republic of Pakistan also has the second lowest favourable rating in the survey (16%) trailing Iran who are the least favourably viewed nation (15%). This is followed by North Korea with the third lowest favorable rating in the survey (17%).

Pakistan

Views of Pakistan remain quite negative and, overall, largely unchanged from last year. Twenty-three countries give Pakistan‘s influence a negative rating, two countries lean positive and two are divided. In 2009, only one of 23 countries leaned positive and two countries were divided. In the 27-country average, 51 per cent view Pakistani influence negatively and 16 per cent view it positively.

Among countries polled in both 2009 and 2010, positive views are down two points and negative views are down four points.

Views have worsened in India and Russia. In India, negative views have risen 14 points (from 49% to 63%). Among Russians, negative views are up nine points (from 37% to 46%).

In two countries, views have improved significantly. Kenyans moved from an unfavourable view to being divided, with a nine-point increase in positive views (now 39%, up from 30%), and an 11-point decrease in negative views (now 37%, down from 48%). Indonesians have shifted from being divided to leaning favourable, as positive views have risen six points (now 36%, up from 30%) and negative views have dropped slightly (now 26%, down from 29%).

Negative views are significantly lower in seven countries, though positive views have not gone up. These include Australians, (54%, down from 63%), Canadians, (49%, down from 63%), Americans (58%, down from 69%), Britons, (44%, down from 54%), Portuguese, (57%, down from 72%), Spain, (70%, down from 78%), and Filipinos (61%, down from 71%). In all these countries, neutral views and non-responses are up compared to last year.

A slight increase in negative views has moved Nigeria from divided in 2009 (32% positive, 35% negative) to leaning negative (32% positive, 40% negative) in 2010.

Among Egyptians, positive views have fallen 11 points (now 14%, down from 25%), but negative views dropped as well (now 36%, down from 41%). Those saying ―It depends‖ have risen 16 points (now 30%, up from 14%).

The above text is accompanied by a table and can be read on page marked 11 at the below link. Poll findings regarding India are on page marked 12:

BBC Poll

Amended. Link corrected. Thank you for pointing it out Amber G:.

[Manu]

Pakjabis are basically fun-loving people (they are at heart Punjabis). This Islaam Wislaam is not something they can do. Unkey bass ki baat nahin hai.

No they are not. Indian Punjabis (Hindus and Sikhs) are absolutely not like Paki Punjabis. There is a *world* of difference.

Once your brother is bitten by a Vampire, he may continue to look like your brother but in fact has joined the ranks of the undead and wants to feast on your Jugular. Not an excellent Metaphor, but you get the idea. They are past saving.

Pakjabis are the reason Pakistan is the world's Terror Central. LET is 100% Pakjabi. The folks who kill Shias just for fun are 100% Pakjabi.

There is a good reason why the Term "Pakjabi" was coined in BR. Why no similar term for Sindhi, Mirpuri, Pashtun....

Forget the partition, it is a done thing...we should not get sentimental or guilty...like the 60+ Indian Punjabi folks often do.

Guilt is such a wasted emotion. It’s like a belly button that doesn’t even collect lint.
Especially on Pakis.

This last line is not aimed at you Surinder but at the WKK brigade....

"None so blind as those that cannot see".

[SSridhar]

Pakistan keen to offer India MFN status

An advisory panel of economists of the Planning Commission has made out a strong case for granting the Most Favoured Nation (MFN) status to India to exploit the huge potential offered by regional trade.

Elaborating, the report states that the positive list approach should be abandoned, visa processing ought to be eased to facilitate freer movement of people, and institutional mechanisms put in place for banks to participate freely in transactions. Besides, they have called for opening new transportation routes, allow better information exchange, and creating an enabling environment for investment in joint ventures.

Though bilateral trade between Pakistan and India in 2007-08 was valued at $2.3 billion — representing about 2 per cent and 5 per cent of Pakistan's total exports and imports, respectively — the report states that a comprehensive analysis of trade data reveals that the two countries are important trading partners against all odds.

Pakistan's exports to India are almost half its exports to South Asia while its imports from India exceed 70 per cent of its imports from South Asia which in value terms is more than imports from France, Canada, the Netherlands, Turkey, Iran and Thailand.

[SSridhar]

The missing ex-ISI officers, Col. Imam & Sqn. Ldr. Khawaja - Case solved

The mystery of the abduction in tribal areas of two pro-Taliban ISI veterans has virtually been solved as the wife of a kidnapped officer says the Punjabi Taliban were responsible and they invited them to the tribal areas.

One of the kidnapped ISI veterans, Khalid Khawaja, has previously acted as a conduit for Baitullah Mehsud for an intelligence agency. He once handed to late Baitullah a list of the Punjabi Taliban in the tribal belt who were disliked by the intelligence sleuths.

Khawaja, in a recently televised video sent by the captors, said he went to the tribal belt on the advice of former DG ISI, Lt Gen (retd) Hamid Gul, a serving ISI Col Sajjad, and former Army chief Aslam Beg. Col (retd) Imam in the same video said he undertook the tribal area visit on the advice of Gen (retd) Beg.

Retired PAF Squadron Leader Khalid Khawaja and Col (retd) Sultan Amir alias Col Imam were kidnapped along with a British documentary-maker of Pakistani origin, Asad Qureshi, in the tribal area where they went to film the ‘atrocities’ being committed on the Taliban of the Fata region.

According to an early press release issued by Khawaja’s family, they went there on the “precise invitation of the High Command of Tehrik-e-Taliban of North and South Waziristan as their respected guests for the purpose of making a documentary highlighting the present situation of the area and its impact on the indigenous population.” However, details gathered in background conversations present a totally different picture.

As far their visit to the area is concerned, it was not being done at the invitation of leadership of Taliban militants in Waziristan as was initially told to the media by the family of Khalid Khawaja. It was the second visit to the area within a month by Khawaja and Col (retd) Imam. They first went to the area in the beginning of March and left Islamabad for a second trip on March 26.

Before they departed for the second time, their guide in the first visit declined to join them, stating security concerns. As Khawaja was in contact with another Taliban militant, Usman Punjabi, they decided to leave after receiving clearance from him who also sent a guide to ensure their safe travel. They were later found missing.

The man who called the family of Khalid Khawaja to convey the demands of the captors introduced himself as ‘Usman Punjabi, confirmed Khawaja’s wife and son who have realised that the callers represent a bunch of criminals. They understand the group is dominated by Punjabi Taliban, raising questions about their motives.

Khawaja once handed a list of Punjabi Taliban to late Baitulah Mehsud on behalf of an intelligence agency, conveying the latter’s desire they be reined in as they were creating trouble time and again. Right from attacks on former President Pervez Musharraf to the GHQ and at other places, the Punjabi Taliban have been found involved.

Khawaja’s family did not deny he acted as a conduit. Elaborating, his son said his father’s efforts were intended to bring peace and he played a crucial role in holding Jirgas with Baitullah-led militants in the past.

Col (retd) Imam was closer to Afghan Taliban apparently working on behalf of the Pakistani establishment. His son is a serving major in the Army.

Khawaja remained more active on the domestic front. He had once claimed that he hosted Osama bin Laden in pre-9/11 days when bin Laden used to visit his Islamabad residence. Khawaja also remained at center-stage during Lal Masjid crisis, siding with the clerics. Though he spearheaded the movement of missing persons in the beginning, his alleged dual role came under suspicion by the families.

[anupmisra]

PIPA....

Pakjabi Intellectuals with Pa'astaniyat Added?

[anupmisra]

Pakjabis are basically fun-loving people (they are at heart Punjabis). This Islaam Wislaam is not something they can do. Unkey bass ki baat nahin hai.

My opinion differs from yours. My daily forays as a lurker into the pakjabi wonderland called pdf reveals that the abject version of islaam is very much intact (and thriving) there.

[anupmisra]

Gilani vows to reduce load-shedding
Refuses to go to pa'astan at night to help save electricity. Now he has an inner-pakistan problem.

Ashraf said that only government officials who occupy a rank higher than Grade 20 would be allowed to use air conditioners in their office, and that too, after 11 am.

Now, here's a smart pakjabi move. Let the offices bake till 11:00 AM and then turn on the AC full blast to compensate till 5 AM the next day. Smart, paki smart.

He added that the use of decorative lights for commercial activities would be restricted as well.

Minar-e-pa'astan will continue to be lit as a shining beacon.

[anupmisra]

Senior players’ decision to rest irks chief selector

“Quite frankly, they don’t even deserve rest. You take rest after accomplishing something like returning with a medal whereas we came 12th out of 12 teams in the World Cup. They should rather be working harder at erasing the embarrassment of the ignominious defeat by competing actively in the forthcoming event rather than going into hiding.”

Now, the pakis should try applying this same logic to the pa'astan army generals who seek and are given retirement.

[R Vaidya]

SSridhar

I have not included here the Constitutional Amendments that get passed every now and then that mutilate the very character and make wholesale changes almost amounting to a new Constitution, as just happened with the 18th Amendment.

Thanks for the writeup on the constituional conundrums in Pakistan from the beginning of its de-formation--
Inner Pakistan will be out smoothly if the constitution is right--Some Ginger chai needed!!
Is there an explicit provision in the just passed 18th amendment and signed by 10 percent--that only Mohemadans [which will exclude Ahemediya's]can become Prime-Minister/President? I could not locate it in the Bill --a specific mention.
Of course If I remember right the oath [ to be taken by PM/President] created in Bhutto time in a sense negated others.
Thanks
Rvaidya

[Vikas]

Pakjabis are basically fun-loving people (they are at heart Punjabis). This Islaam Wislaam is not something they can do. Unkey bass ki baat nahin hai.

JMT
Are we at BRF now in another phase where we are sterotyping Pakis from different regions, that Pakjabis are fun loving, Sindhis are non-violent semi-secular and sufi influenced, Pathans are not anti-Indians because of Abdul Gaffar Khan and Balochis - well we don't have any opinion about them and Muhajirs still long for Delhi-UP-Bihar-MP roots and would come back happily if given a oppurtunity.
I wonder if it is part of some strategic plan or we are falling in another trap where some Pakis are preferrable to others.
Though degrees might be different but almost all the Pakis want to see India destroyed, Kashmir Grabbed , Hyderabad taken and green flag over Red Fort and Islamist ruling over India (Like so called good old days) depending upon who your audience is.
I am yet to come across any piece of evidence which says on the contrary. Yes my understanding of Pakis is derived from newspapers, PTV , internet and BRF. But hey that is where most of the influential people and voices from Pakistan exist.

No they are not. Indian Punjabis (Hindus and Sikhs) are absolutely not like Paki Punjabis. There is a *world* of difference.

Once your brother is bitten by a Vampire, he may continue to look like your brother but in fact has joined the ranks of the undead and wants to feast on your Jugular. Not an excellent Metaphor, but you get the idea. They are past saving.

Manu, that was an apt Metaphor. Just like us, The Vampire too wants the love feast but in the end, he/she gets to feast on your Jugular.

What I know is that across Pakistan, Hindus and Sikhs were hounded and still are being, Anything that has relation to anything non-arabic is being destroyed, Paki terrorists are coming from all the four provinces.
Hindu Girls being kidnapped, Sikhs being murdered, remaining folks being forced to convert to RoP and "The horror that is Paa'istan" continues.

Like Manu said, once a vampire, always a vampire. Pakistan has been corrupted and converted beyond any hope of repair.
Our only hope is that they become Arabi/Turki/Persian/CA'sian once and for all and India has no connection,relation or expectations from them.

So dear Pakis - Spare us the malarkey of being a good fun loving neighbor who just covets his neighbors orchids and water tank and wife and prosperity.

[RamaY]

Question - in this forum we talk about how Taliban was created by TSPint, but if the TSPA is busy attacking and killing Talibs and Pakhtuns, can they really be considered to be close? Or is it more likely that different factions withing the TSPA are pulling towards different directions - some supporting the Talibs, others not as much?


Furthermore, is it still reasonable to assume that TSP intelligence has knowledge of where UBL might be? Accounts say he's "protected" and "loved" in that area...but I'm thinking:
[confused rambling]
- TSP wants Unkil out of Afg asap. Handing over UBL will ensure it, and of course Taliban would resist. Some TSPA factions wouldn't want to hand him over, but others might. Kayani, being a "traditionalist" sees his prime enemy to be India, and his prime desired outcome is to strengthen his position against us. Nothing seems to suggest that Kayani is any sort of extremist in the way of some army personnel who might support the Talibs, so he would not have any vested interest there. So if factions in the TSPA have links to Taliban and UBL, I think Kayani could leverage that in order to get military goodies to strengthen his position, but that is not happening at all, as the US doesn't give TSP anything really good. If he cannot use that leverage, I'm thinking that maybe ISI etc. really have no clue about UBL. [/confused rambling]

Since I am not much value to others, let me address your questions

1. TSPA and CIA's ******** child is the good Taliban. The Bad Taliban is the Pakthun nationalist movement; which is following the Good Taliban model/strategy within Pakistan. So both Good and Bad Taliban have similar strategy towards achieving their goals, the Good side is detrimental to Afghanistan's interests where as Bad side is detrimental to TSPA.

If we can visualize a world without CIA/TSPA then both good and bad taliban might have same life style and perspective. How they would view Bharat is an interesting analysis, yet to be done.

2. TSPA/ISI wants Afghanistan as its strategic depth. It doesn't matter if this is achieved with Unkil in or out of Afghanistan. In one way, it is better for TSPA/ISI financially if Unkil is stuck in Afghanistan quagmire.

OBL/UBL as an individual is of less value to TSPA/ISI as well as Unkil. As far as Unkil is concerned, there is no value in capturing him and rewinding all geopolitical advances that they have made in the past 9 years. So OBL will (already might have) die a orphan death and no will ever know.

Kiyanahi will not become head of TSPA if he doesn't represent the core values of TSPA/ISI. Numerous terror attacks happened in India and Afghanistan under his watch. TSPA continued to opress its own population under his watch. So he is no different from any other TSPA chief.

One has to understand that the structural changes are needed for TSPA to giveup its terror tactics. TSPA is so rotten that it can be cleaned up only by destroying it entirely. Like what Unkil did to Saddam's Iraqi Armed Forces (rightly or wrongly).

[Amber G.]

Results of the BBC World Service Poll conducted by PIPA of nearly 30,000 people in 28 countries who were interviewed between November 2009 and February 2010 show the Islamic Republic of Pakistan in unflattering light.
...
The above text is accompanied by a table and can be read on page marked 11 at the below link. Poll findings regarding India are on page marked 12:

BBC Poll

The link seems to be broken for me, Here is the direct link:
pipa poll
(Interesting that even in Pakistan only 38% people have "mainly positive" view of Pakistan - while 18% in Pakistan think they are in deep Pakistan)

[r_subramanian]

Looking at the issue of crippling power shortages in Pakistan, I see two major problems:
(1) Lack of forward planning in meeting energy demand, inability in implementing sensible policies taken and the massive corruption involved in every step of the way.
(2) The unwillingness or the inability of the bottom of the pyramid (domestic consumers, businesses, industry and state governments) to pay for power; this moves up the pyramid all the way to top of oil importing company.
Unless there is a cultural change (of a very high order) these problems can not be overcome.

Gilani announces measures to overcome crippling power shortage
Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani on Thursday announced measures to save 500 MW daily through a series of strict steps, including a five-day working week and closure of businesses at 8 pm.
...
{He talked of} short-term measures to operationalise 10 IPP for an immediate addition of 300 MW and 1305 MW by end of year, while, 605 MW to be added through Rental power;financial measures to ensure payment of Rs 116 billion to cut circular debt and to ensure no recurrence in future
...

link
How serious are they about implementing the cosmetic steps to save 500 MW daily? Opposition to these measures have already started.
Traders of twin cities refuse to shut business at 8p.m.
KCCI flays power cut, two off days

[Prem]

r_subramanian
It is the sense of entitlement just on basis of them being faithfools. They did ok as long as they were able to live on other people's hard work. Forget about Electricity, AFAIK they have not added any and still limited to the educational institutes, hospitals etc build by Hindus and Sikhs before 47. Kaffir Uncle taking care of Munna now but how long ?

[r_subramanian]

r_subramanian
It is the sense of entitlement just on basis of them being faithfools. They did ok as long as they were able to live on other people's hard work. Forget about Electricity, AFAIK they have not added any and still limited to the educational institutes, hospitals etc build by Hindus and Sikhs before 47. Kaffir Uncle taking care of Munna now but how long ?

I agree with you, Prem. Once Americans leave Afghanistan, may be the Chinese would continue help Pakistan. However, I do not believe that they would be as generous as the Americans.

[ramana]

The only change I would in RamaY's post is to characterize his "Good" Taliban as the Bad Taliban for they are poison to the neighborhood. His "Bad" Taliban are the "Good" ones for they are fighting for Pashtun self determination and hence good for the neighborhood. Getting the 'Bad-Good' in to the Karzai regime and in Paktukhwa is good. Getting the "Good-Bad" Taliban is death of Afghanistan(will cause the Tajiks etc to get nerovus) and the neighborhood due to spill over.

[Anujan]

A bulb went off in my head. Where can we look up oil import data for Pakistan? How much of the current power crisis is because the Saudis are cutting flow of oil to the Pakis. Why are the cutting the flow? Is it because to squeeze Pakistanis to gain leverage over taliban friendly to the Saudis (asking Pakis to dump Hekmatyar because he is close to the Iranians for example). Is it because they want their boy Nawaz to come to power? The rapid-fire visits between India and the Saudis might also be another way of squeezing them. If they are pissed with the Pakis, why are they pissed?

[archan]

Is it because to squeeze Pakistani palls

Pinglish.

[Anujan]

Swat is heating up (Yes that swat, where great victory was declared)

Killings Rattle Pakistan’s Swat Valley

At least five anti-Taliban political leaders have been killed in the Swat Valley in northern Pakistan over the past two weeks, residents there said, raising fears that the Taliban forces that once ruled the area could be regrouping.

[shiv]

. They did ok as long as they were able to live on other people's hard work.

Pliss excuse. I can't resist this one. What is wrong if they live on other people's hard work. Pakis were born of other people's hards ons in the first place no?

[CRamS]

Wow, DDM is so thrilled to report US urging TSP Amercians to be equal equal to Indian Americans. Wonder why US didn't urge TSP Amercians to emulate Greek Amercians or Chilean Amercians or Somali Americans or whatever. Why only Indian Americans?

[Malayappan]

ZAB’s nephew challenges Fatima’s version
Tariq Islam challenges Fatima. Apart from quoting 'facts' he quotes ZAB

I am too big a man to ask others to place themselves in jeopardy so that my life may be saved. I will go down in history. Songs will be written about me

[arun]

Results of the BBC World Service Poll conducted by PIPA of nearly 30,000 people in 28 countries who were interviewed between November 2009 and February 2010 show the Islamic Republic of Pakistan in unflattering light.
...
The above text is accompanied by a table and can be read on page marked 11 at the below link. Poll findings regarding India are on page marked 12:

BBC Poll

The link seems to be broken for me, Here is the direct link:
pipa poll
(Interesting that even in Pakistan only 38% people have "mainly positive" view of Pakistan - while 18% in Pakistan think they are in deep Pakistan)

Thank you for pointing it out. I have revisted the post in this thread and elsewhere and corrected the link.

The corrected link is:

BBC Poll

[Prem]

. They did ok as long as they were able to live on other people's hard work.

Pliss excuse. I can't resist this one. What is wrong if they live on other people's hard work. Pakis were born of other people's hards ons in the first place no?

I forgot, Arabs, Persian, CAS and Pathan's years of Haardning gave birth to Ajalaf Pakistinians. But we must admit, Pakis have taken reatardness to delusional grandeur level.

[A_Gupta]

Occasionally, one comes across a Pakistani who is in touch with reality.
One such is Ghulam Ahmad Bilour (ANP), Federal Minister for Railways.

On Capital Talk he told Hamid Mir (paraphrasing) - "this inflation {and bad economic situation} nobody did to us; we did it to ourselves. We fought three wars, lost half the country; and whenever you fight a war you regress. After two world wars, Europe did not fight further wars, and they have progressed. We have not. And then, we sunk so much money into the atom bomb. We said we would even eat grass to have the atom bomb. Well, we are eating grass."

Then of course, the PML-N idiot thundered that without the A-bomb India would not have turned its forces back in 1998 and 2002, Pakistan is "mahfooz" today because of the A-bomb. {He didn't get the point that India would not have mobilized except for Pakistan's actions.}

[ramana]

A bulb went off in my head. Where can we look up oil import data for Pakistan? How much of the current power crisis is because the Saudis are cutting flow of oil to the Pakis. Why are the cutting the flow? Is it because to squeeze Pakistanis to gain leverage over taliban friendly to the Saudis (asking Pakis to dump Hekmatyar because he is close to the Iranians for example). Is it because they want their boy Nawaz to come to power? The rapid-fire visits between India and the Saudis might also be another way of squeezing them. If they are pissed with the Pakis, why are they pissed?

I know its CT^ infinity but they found out TSP did daga baazi. And are scrambling to get cover. They need India very, very badly.
Watch the West Asia thread and put that thinking cap of yours.

As they were finessing South Asia found their front yard on fire.

[Prem]

Look like Paki tactical brilliance has struck again. They have to select between Saudi and Talibans and IMHO India provided necessary impetus via Afghanistan in making up Paki mind. In the end Paki will loose both.

[A_Gupta]

If one goes by the TV news shows {that I have watched in the last four months}, then in general Sindhis, ANP Pakhtuns and Balochs are not reflexively anti-India. In fact, they are subject to attacks from PML-N types, who imply that since these people are not blaming Hindustan for some problem or the other, maybe they are not fully loyal to Pakistan.

I don't mean to say that they aren't hostile to India; but they don't blame each and every problem of Pakistan on India.

[Avinash R]

A bulb went off in my head. Where can we look up oil import data for Pakistan? How much of the current power crisis is because the Saudis are cutting flow of oil to the Pakis. Why are the cutting the flow? Is it because to squeeze Pakistanis to gain leverage over taliban friendly to the Saudis (asking Pakis to dump Hekmatyar because he is close to the Iranians for example). Is it because they want their boy Nawaz to come to power? The rapid-fire visits between India and the Saudis might also be another way of squeezing them. If they are pissed with the Pakis, why are they pissed?

Must be the effect of sending rectum bomber to finish off saudi prince

[Rishi]

has the IDSA report on pacquistan been discussed?