Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 27 Apr 2010 20:19

Japan seeks foreign engines for stealth fighter prototypes

Japan is looking to use foreign engines for the prototype aircraft needed for its fifth-generation fighter programme.

The ATD-X Shinshin programme is still in the study stage, but industry sources in Japan and overseas say Tokyo has issued a document to engine-makers seeking information and pricing on powerplants needed for two prototype aircraft.

Responses are due to be submitted by 10 May.

Japan is interested in engines in the 10,000-20,000lb thrust class (44-89kN), and has a long-list of candidates on which it is seeking information, the sources say.

These include the General Electric F404 used to power the Boeing F/A-18 Hornet, Snecma's M88-2 for the Dassault Rafale and Volvo Aero's RM12, integrated with the Saab Gripen. Its search even contains the Gas Turbine Research Establishment GTX-35VS Kaveri, still in development for India's Aeronautical Development Agency Tejas light combat aircraft.

No EJ200 but Kaveri included

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 27 Apr 2010 20:25

This is great!

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 27 Apr 2010 20:29

First baby step ... flight test in russia
Second baby step ... people start taking you seriously
Will start walking ... when fitted on LCA.

Well done GTRE ... keep it up.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 28 Apr 2010 15:27

Any info on how and why this invitation came by? Me thinks that the Japanese know something about the kaveri that prompted this.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 28 Apr 2010 16:10

aditp wrote:India to flight-test first indigenous jet engine next month

Deccan Herald on 07-Apr-10 wrote: Bangalore, Apr 7 (PTI)

After two decades of research and development, India is all set to flight-test its first indigenously developed jet engine next month, an official said on Wednesday.

"Kaveri engine will be flight-tested in one-and-half months... Should be after middle of May," Director of Bangalore-based Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), a DRDO lab, T Mohana Rao, said.

In AI09, we heard May as well... hearts skipped, jumped and danced in thinking our bird's heart would beat at last... didn't realize they meant May 2010.

Lets hope its coming out brilliantly now... make it worth the delay.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 28 Apr 2010 17:22

Its only to power two prototype , and don't worry Americans will provide them engines , Kaveri is no where near production

kit · Post by **kit** » 28 Apr 2010 17:35

Gagan wrote:Any info on how and why this invitation came by? Me thinks that the Japanese know something about the kaveri that prompted this.

It makes sense to know the current level of fighter engine technology available.Also Japan is fully capable of building a 5th gen engine by itself.Americans will have the good sense of not letting them know anything worthwile about the F119-PW-100.
Would the japanese be interested in codeveloping a kaveri version 2 .. seriously doubt it !

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 28 Apr 2010 18:27

If only the Japs working on the fighter don't go to Karaoke bars for a month or so and give that money to ADA/GTRE/NAL, that would be a big boost to their budgets...more than our budget can allot.

Seriously, GOI should engage the Japs at highest levels like we did with Russians or Israel to get something like this off the ground. Both have shared love and respect for taller than mountain friends....

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 29 Apr 2010 15:17

karan_mc wrote:Its only to power two prototype , and don't worry Americans will provide them engines , Kaveri is no where near production

Kaveri is not tested enough too. When you platform is experimental, you would obviously choose a tested power plant. That way the risk with the power plant causing any issues, thus ending your project, is minimal. We did not risk it with TD-1 and 2, why would the Japs?

If if the Japs bring the materials/manufacturing know-how, and we have a working design, it would be a highly productive partnership to churn out engines cheap and in plenty. Money is not something we will require from them.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 03 May 2010 18:40

Update from MOD.. Press release -

Development of Kaveri Engine

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 04 May 2010 07:35

^^ More info from Mohtarma's website

About 1880 hrs on engine test has been completed on various prototypes of Kaveri Engine. A total of eight Kaveri Engines and four core engines have been manufactured, assembled and tested. High Altitude testing on core engine has been completed successfully.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 May 2010 07:42

An optimised and lower weight Kaveri means a Kaveri that will never power the LCA.

If not the aircraft they can power our Naval Ships eliminating the need for Lic manuf LM2500 and Ukranian engine.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 04 May 2010 07:52

^^ Not to mention, the X-railway minister and the current momta can make good use of it in their Rail gaadis besides I think UAV's can make good use of it as well.....
Not sure if developing a Gas turbine engine for Arjun would be such a great idea, because if one were to see the amount of sand in the M1A2 in the desert, it is a freaking miracle as to how they still work. The amount of time that goes into maintenance is just mind boggling...

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 04 May 2010 08:32

First and foremost I am glad that BR ran out of funds (for the time being?) to upgrade to a psychedelic version. Back to sanity.

Austin wrote:An optimised and lower weight Kaveri means a Kaveri that will never power the LCA.

If not the aircraft they can power our Naval Ships eliminating the need for Lic manuf LM2500 and Ukranian engine.

The NIC report does say:

so that it can be used for Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas and possibly for Indian next generation combat Aircraft

It goes on state that they are procuring foreign engines for the LCA, that is a better indicator that the Kaveri may not push the LCA around.

But then I just cannot see an Indian air craft being powered by some other engine. Either the MCA will be killed or will be powered by the "Kaveri".

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 May 2010 09:15

I see that "can be used for Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas and possibly for Indian next generation combat Aircraft" more of a political statement to give the non-performance of Kaveri a positive spin.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 May 2010 09:17

^^^
very unlikely for LCA IMHO but quite possible for AMCA.

First and foremost I am glad that BR ran out of funds (for the time being?) to upgrade to a psychedelic version. Back to sanity.

the psychedelic version was always temporary pending forum upgrade.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 May 2010 10:04

Let the AMCA first go beyond paper drawing to FSED . I am more nervous when they added that "A Advanced MCA" for what used to be just MCA few months back.

Advanced means recipe for disaster

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 May 2010 10:16

hope not !

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 04 May 2010 18:59

Russia starts tests on improved, "lightweight" AL-55I aero engine for India
Moscow, 27 April: Bench run trials of an improved AL-55I aero engine
are being conducted at the Saturn Research and Production Association
(in Rybinsk, Yaroslavl Region), Interfax-AVN has been told by a
Russian defence industry source.

"Ground bench run tests are being carried out on a 'lightweight' AL-
55I engine. Designers at Saturn have reduced the engine's weight by
more than 50 kg," the agency's informant pointed out.

He went on to say that flight testing of the lightweight AL-55I on a
MiG-AT trainer is scheduled to start in the autumn of 2010.

It was previously reported that MiG-AT trainers had been used for
flight tests on the Saturn AL-55I engine and the RD-1700 engine, made
by the Soyuz Engineering Design Bureau in Tushino.

He added that work was now going forward to extend the operational
service life of the engines' main components and systems.

The AL-55I engine is being developed for the HJT-36 [Sitara] trainer
aircraft thanks to an order from the Indian corporation HAL [Hindustan
Aeronautics Ltd] under a Saturn international contract that came into
effect on 1 August 2005.

The AL-55I is being developed from the basic AL-55 gasifier section
and is a dual-shaft bypass turbojet engine with a subsonic fixed
convergent exhaust nozzle.

The AL-55 engine was originally developed with a maximum thrust of
2,500 kg, but an Indian technical specification restricted its thrust
to 1,760 kg. The ground tests show that the engine displays a high
compressor pressure ratio and very good specific fuel consumption.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 04 May 2010 19:33

Craig Alpert wrote:^^ More info from Mohtarma's website

Craigji why bother quoting something that is a direct Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V from PIB.

Cheers....

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 10 May 2010 08:02

Kaveri Update

It seems like India's troubled jet engine program "Kaveri" is finally making some progress but the pace is still slow. Defense Minister AK Antony recently made comments on the engine in parliament. Meanwhile the efforts to install the Kaveri of a LCA seems to have been delayed.
In the parliament Defense Minister AK Antony said that there are issues with the weight of the Kaveri. Its more than 150 kgs heavy than planned and the performance of the engine has not reached 100% but is very near it. However the good news is that the tendency to throw blades is now rectified and the engine is safe. Another good news is that the engine sent to Russia for high altitude testing on-board a test bed has completed more than 100 hrs of "successful" testing. This brings the total testing hours close to the 2000 hrs mark.
However there are no plans to use the engine on-board the LCA and there is a very high possibility that the Kaveri Mk-2 would be reduced to just a technology demonstrator. However one LCA will definitely be powered by it and in future may be some UAV's and small naval vessels. The Japanese are also looking at the Kaveri to power their Stealth fighter prototypes but its highly unlikely that it would be chosen.

srs · Post by **srs** » 10 May 2010 13:08

very high possibility that the Kaveri Mk-2 would be reduced to just a technology demonstrator

What?? Do they plan to kill the project???

I was reading about ISROs S200 Booster. ISRO has developed a flex nozzle with the thrust vector control system for the same. Is it similar to the tech used for thrust vectoring in fighter jets???

Venu · Post by **Venu** » 10 May 2010 13:52

No. A flex nozzle in rocket and a TVC of an aircraft engine are not the same.

You can see how a rockets flex nozzle works here

However, an aircraft's TVC works differently.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgZu19xs4GQ

vardhank · Post by **vardhank** » 17 May 2010 19:43

Newbie question... what are the differences between a fighter's jet engine and say a transport aircraft's? (Both turbofans).
Is it a difference in terms of materials and shapes/sizes (as in the difference between say a Maruti 800's engine and an F1 car's)?
Or are they structurally very different as well?
Or, can fitting an afterburner to say a Trent make it (theoretically only, I know it's a mess in practical terms) a viable jet-fighter engine?

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 17 May 2010 21:11

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 58&start=0

vardhan , The first few pages of the current LCA dhaga is a treasure trove of knowledge regarding Jet engines written in authentic pingreji by mullah enqoob(bring him back

) and vina. This jet engine ignorant abdul learnt a lot in the extra lectures conducted for the flying carpet discussions in the dhaga. Regarding your question , hadiths quoted indicate that the significant difference between the two is in the bye-pass ratio and compression ratio acheived. In other words both are structurally very different.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 09 Jun 2010 14:32

X-post

DRDO gets ISO certification

The City-based Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) lab, Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) has been certified for ISO 9001:2008 Quality Management System standard by M/s LRQA.

GTRE was initially certified in 2002 and subsequently had successful recertifications.

GTRE is involved in the design and development of the Kaveri engine for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). The ISO 9001:2008 certification aids in the continual improvement of design and development activities of the establishment.

ajay_hk · Post by **ajay_hk** » 19 Jun 2010 02:59

X-posting Kaveri bit...

Negotiations for Tejas aircraft engines soon

An upgraded and more powerful Kaveri engine is being seen initially as a replacement engine for the first batch of Tejas aircraft, Subramanyam added.

“Every aircraft in its lifetime needs two replacements. Some of those engines are already looking for that. By the time Kaveri gets developed and demonstrated, those engines can start coming as replacement engines for the first 20, 40 (aircraft),” he said. “There is full scope of what their profile is. It is very clear in our mind. The Kaveri engine profile for the next 30 years has a very strong dovetailing into the LCA programme,” he added.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 19 Jun 2010 09:49

Marten wrote:On which airframe would they integrate the Kaveri?

Sometime back I reported this

The official Altitude Test and Flying Test Bed for K9+ engines is planned for Nov 2007. All this will culminate in integrating the Kaveri K9 + engine with PV1 followed by first interim flight by June 2008.

The schedule and prototype may change. But, its possible that integration can happen. They want to get experience on a real time integration which will help them to build up their experience.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 19 Jun 2010 21:10

nukavarapu wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:The schedule and prototype may change. But, its possible that integration can happen. They want to get experience on a real time integration which will help them to build up their experience.
CJ -- Any news on whats going in Russia? I have not heard any whispers lately about the performance of Kaveri. Last was that Dr. Saraswat was highly satisfied by the results.

nukavarapu,

I will call then next week and try to figure out.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Jun 2010 22:03

chackojoseph wrote:
Marten wrote:On which airframe would they integrate the Kaveri?
Sometime back I reported this

That is from 2007. Is it possible to update that or even better to see how much of it has come close to fruition?

The schedule and prototype may change. But, its possible that integration can happen. They want to get experience on a real time integration which will help them to build up their experience.

Well. I think much has changed since then. Mk-II will host a non-Kaveri for the foreseeable future, and the Kaveri - it seems to me - will be retrofitted as opportunities present themselves.

Now, the "get experience on a real time integration which will help them to build up their experience" is a fair enough expectation, nothing wrong with that. However, it does indicate that the Kaveri is in its infancy somewhere along the game plan. The engine could be dynamite (for India/LCA/etc), but WRT integration, etc there is much to learn.

Which, if true, then the plan to retrofit is also fluid. ????

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 19 Jun 2010 23:56

A "lazy" question:

Even if Kaveri meets the designed requirements, it will not be on the Tejas Mk 1 or Mk 2. So what is the future of Kaveri? Yes, I know there are projected marine applications, but AFAIK, getting Kaveri to power Tejas will involve a substantial redesign. Is that the planned way ahead?

(Lazy because I am sure this is documented somewhere, but I am too lazy to dig it up)

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jun 2010 02:08

Tanaji wrote:A "lazy" question:

Even if Kaveri meets the designed requirements, it will not be on the Tejas Mk 1 or Mk 2. So what is the future of Kaveri? Yes, I know there are projected marine applications, but AFAIK, getting Kaveri to power Tejas will involve a substantial redesign. Is that the planned way ahead?

(Lazy because I am sure this is documented somewhere, but I am too lazy to dig it up)

On the previous page:

An upgraded and more powerful Kaveri engine is being seen initially as a replacement engine for the first batch of Tejas aircraft, Subramanyam added.

“Every aircraft in its lifetime needs two replacements. Some of those engines are already looking for that. By the time Kaveri gets developed and demonstrated, those engines can start coming as replacement engines for the first 20, 40 (aircraft),” he said. “There is full scope of what their profile is. It is very clear in our mind. The Kaveri engine profile for the next 30 years has a very strong dovetailing into the LCA programme,” he added.

You are welcome.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 20 Jun 2010 07:46

NRao wrote: Now, the "get experience on a real time integration which will help them to build up their experience" is a fair enough expectation, nothing wrong with that. However, it does indicate that the Kaveri is in its infancy somewhere along the game plan. The engine could be dynamite (for India/LCA/etc), but WRT integration, etc there is much to learn.

Which, if true, then the plan to retrofit is also fluid. ????

There is nothing close to doing things yourselves to see and feel. No theory can help. Unless, India builds Kaveri, puts it into aircraft and the flies it according to international flying standards, we cannot say that we have an engine.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jun 2010 08:08

chackojoseph wrote:
NRao wrote: Now, the "get experience on a real time integration which will help them to build up their experience" is a fair enough expectation, nothing wrong with that. However, it does indicate that the Kaveri is in its infancy somewhere along the game plan. The engine could be dynamite (for India/LCA/etc), but WRT integration, etc there is much to learn.

Which, if true, then the plan to retrofit is also fluid. ????
There is nothing close to doing things yourselves to see and feel. No theory can help. Unless, India builds Kaveri, puts it into aircraft and the flies it according to international flying standards, we cannot say that we have an engine.

which is pretty much what I said, except that India is - in that case- pretty far of from her own engine. This testing in Russia and help from snecma is only the first step.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 20 Jun 2010 08:21

NRao wrote:
chackojoseph wrote: There is nothing close to doing things yourselves to see and feel. No theory can help. Unless, India builds Kaveri, puts it into aircraft and the flies it according to international flying standards, we cannot say that we have an engine.
which is pretty much what I said, except that India is - in that case- pretty far of from her own engine. This testing in Russia and help from snecma is only the first step.

You are right. I am not clear on the Snecma role in K-9. IMO, that will be a different version altogether.

My impression of last time, DRD would like to keep the 100% Indian option running, at the same time, they would also like a working version with someone who has experience.

vic · Post by **vic** » 20 Jun 2010 12:10

Snecma will do nothing for kavari. Snecma has said that they will provide core of M88. Then the remaining LP section will be new. So neither from Kaveri or M88. Snecma need a new LP section to boost M88 to 90-95kn for proposed UAE orders of Rafale.. They will allow GTRE to call it JV for H&D plus US$ 2.5 Billion. Snecma has been saying for around 20 years that design of kaveri needs major revision read kaveri has been designed incorrectly.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Jun 2010 16:43

Sorry, it wont be a "M88 core transfer" with no gain for GTRE. The deal has been under negotiation for almost a decade now & Safran has formally offered a transfer of key process technology for the Kaveri - the hot section will be redesigned to accomodate the same. The M88 Upg program is different and has no relation to this program.

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 20 Jun 2010 21:34

Mrinal-ji can you be a little more specific - is this "key process technology" an euphemism for SC blade manufacturing (and maybe, just maybe, the turbine blisk manufacturing) technology?

The reason I ask this is because, on-one hand we have this following line of thinking:
We have had SC technology at the laboratory level for quite some time now (read with DMRL) but never really got it to HP blade manufacturing level - and without getting TeT to around 1750-1800K regime (from the current, IIRC, 1400-1500K of a typical DS blade technology) the dry thrust, OPR and dry SFC levels will remain with the current 50-52KN (80KN wet) level. The desire is, what some 60-65KN dry (100KN wet) engine technology?

On the other hand, is this alternate line of thinking:
I think the primary GTRE headache currently is to increase the mass-flow levels so that the promised 90KN wet thrust is achieved without adding any more weight (plus, of course, to reduce the overall Engine weight by 100-150Kg).
Long back, N^3 (or was it vina) alluded, in his own piglish with multi-layered-hidden-logic style, that this mass-flow problem can be atleast partially solved by improving the aero-dynamic efficiency of the LP compressor itself - now when this is contrasted with an very old news of GTRE failing to get the required foreign collaboration in manufacturing the designed complex-geometry-LP-compressure blades (which *may* have resulted in them settling for an sub-optimal soln), it does raise a question if this new "process technology" is more about LP compressor and it's pressure ratio related or not?

So, is this "key process technology" alluding to the first line of thinking or the second or both? You seem to allude to the 1st by saying "hot section will be redesigned" but would be nice if you can confirm.

Thanks.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 Jun 2010 21:50

Unfortunately, I cannot provide answers to the level of detail you have asked for, as the program itself is closely watched & their achievements & challenges are also tracked. As a result, the position taken is to be very guarded with info. so as to not invite more trouble. However, what can be said based on what was revealed publicly, is that your post is fairly on the mark, at least in part 1, from what I could discern, the overall engine will be rigorously audited if need be but initial requirements were mostly around your first para.
Another interesting (for me) piece was that for once our decision makers were thinking strategically and not being penny wise and pound foolish, and do intend to take the Kaveri to its logical conclusion. The deal with Safran has been long in the works, but was stuck for both money & the issues above, and these have taken their time to resolve.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 20 Jun 2010 22:07

do intend to take the Kaveri to its logical conclusion

What does that mean?

With the help of Indian R&D (which it seems does not quite exist)?

Or with help, as in "deal with Safran"? In which case Indian R&D will be still hobbling and "Kaveri" would be one-and-done.

Point being is there political will to fund a proper R&D effort that will support Kaveri AND BEYOND. Or it it asking for too much?