A look back at the partition

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ShauryaT
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by ShauryaT »

Sanku wrote: He did a through job on us. Made sure anything he personally touched turned to ashes. Thankfully many things he was happy taking credit for by standing next to a plaque and did not actually touch himself or not too deeply -- those things are the Indian institutions which still serve us (such as the Armed forces)
Sanku: The way I read history, one of the first casualties of Pandit Nehru's genius was the Indian Armed Forces. Conceptually, he did not believe that we needed a big force. At that time no one believed that TSP will turn out to be the way it has and PRC/Mao gang were our brothers, Nehru thought that Chou en Lai was learning about the world through him.

Around 1950, the strength of the armed forces stood at about 350,000 personnel. The plan was to reduce it to 150,000. Patel, wanted to reverse this plan, as evidenced in his famous letter on China to Nehru. Patel died soon after and there was no one left of stature to take Nehru on, especially in areas of geo-politics and state craft. The resultant disaster of 1962 was a direct result of Nehru touching the strength of the armed forces too deeply.

To this day, his world views serve as guidance to the INC and the result is for all to see, in terms of the spend levels on our forces and its capabilities, which have a direct impact on our security.

I am sure, knowing your posts, you probably did not mean to interpret those words, the way I have, but best to clarify.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Sanku »

ShauryaT wrote: I am sure, knowing your posts, you probably did not mean to interpret those words, the way I have, but best to clarify.
Indeed, but knowing each other, you know I would understand and take no offense either.

To clarify, what I meant was that the forces were not the love child of Nehru, the things that he loved, he spent most time at and those are the really cursed parts of India (the social engineering for new India :roll: ) the armed forces were given a short shrift, like you outline. In retrospect, I thank god, what would have happened if he really wanted to build up the armed forces HIS WAY?

That man was cursed, he could take centuries of man years of toil by other Indians and merely in the process of putting his stamp. Turn it to ashes.
Last edited by Sanku on 29 Apr 2010 22:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by svinayak »

brihaspati wrote:
(1) Yes it does not seem to be apparent at the ruling regime level. So it implies that if such awareness of a civilizational core exists it does not have vocal represnetatives in the corridors of power. But ist apparent non-existence in the highest levels of rashtryia power does not necessarily imply that such an ideological core does not exist. The mere absence of expression of a national core in the instantaneous regime - does not imply the absence of such an ideological core.

(2) The peoples of India could be acting on a vague and subconscious awareness of the "core", where not everything of that core manifested in their electoral choices or political actions. But is also indicates that a core most probably exists that guides people in crucial choices and in critical situations.
Bji,
Thanks for explaining and taking care of this. I was worried for a moment about the way this was being discussed.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Sanju »

Prem wrote:The one lesson we keep forgetting , has not learned and most probably in urgent need to learn is that we did not take the battle to enemy's home ....edited
Prem,

You have hit the nail on the head. When we fight from the gate of our house and when at a disadvantage we give-up our Courtyard. Then follows the verandah etc. However, if we take the fight to the opponents house he will think twice before coming to our house to attack.

Afghanistan was once our front gate and part of our courtyard! :cry:
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by kittoo »

Sanju wrote:
Prem wrote:The one lesson we keep forgetting , has not learned and most probably in urgent need to learn is that we did not take the battle to enemy's home ....edited
Prem,

You have hit the nail on the head. When we fight from the gate of our house and when at a disadvantage we give-up our Courtyard. Then follows the verandah etc. However, if we take the fight to the opponents house he will think twice before coming to our house to attack.

Afghanistan was once our front gate and part of our courtyard! :cry:
Indeed. And our gates are constantly going eastwards.
What we have to look towards is that the onslaught hasnt ended, it probably never will until we take fight there. Its been only about 60 years since India was freed and its not that big lapse of time in historical context. The means will change, but the onslaught will keep coming. Its the core which they want, and minor ups and downs aside, the current is there. When we read history, we only read bigger events, and not the undercurrents. We read about a fight in 1526, then about the one in 1556. We jump in history while reading, but these are the currents that are important. Who knows if in 2500 Indians will read about 1971 as if it was a minor war, with a mention of 2-3 lines, and then about a bigger event that is yet to happen.

Oh and, Indian history is one depressing read.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Prem »

It dawned on me that the Indian shifting strategy and actually enagging the adversary in Afghanistan might be the undelying reason which brought Bustard British to show the cards in London by demanding the withdwal of Indian support to Afghanistan. Arrival and presence of indians there is shaking Pukes and 3 Puke Pitr sleepless nights. May be they understand and comprehend the upcoming consequences of this historical opening/ shift more than us Indian. This might be the first step elephant has taken after 47. The Second step ought to be to plant leg in Balochistan and Third over the head of all perfidious albion nestwork. Onlee then the partition damage be undone.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by surinder »

With no land access to A'stan, all avenues of India to play a meaningful role in are closed. Our presence is at the mercy of the mai baap log. This is not a path to undo partition. For that we need to have a full frontal war with TSP in which TSP will have to be liquidated. A'stan comes much after that. All that our A'stan presence assures is that it gives Uncle & aunties a negotiating point wtih TSP. Our presence is something they can barter & negotiate to get more favorable items out of TSP. We are hence merely a tool in the hands of Uncle/Auntie in needling TSP to deliver certain goods.

More on that in A'stani threads, but this is hardly a path to undo 47.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Karna_A »

kittoo wrote:
Indeed. And our gates are constantly going eastwards.
What we have to look towards is that the onslaught hasnt ended, it probably never will until we take fight there. Its been only about 60 years since India was freed and its not that big lapse of time in historical context. The means will change, but the onslaught will keep coming. Its the core which they want, and minor ups and downs aside, the current is there. When we read history, we only read bigger events, and not the undercurrents. We read about a fight in 1526, then about the one in 1556. We jump in history while reading, but these are the currents that are important. Who knows if in 2500 Indians will read about 1971 as if it was a minor war, with a mention of 2-3 lines, and then about a bigger event that is yet to happen.

Oh and, Indian history is one depressing read.
Yes, the entire Indian independence with 14 Prime Ministers is in time comparison just equivalent to the reign of Aurangzeb. (60 years vs 50 years)

Does someone know how many sikhs were in India after partition including refugees? It looks like the sikh population has not grown much since Independence whereas Muslim population has grown more than 5 times.
Last edited by Karna_A on 30 Apr 2010 05:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by kittoo »

Karna_A wrote:
kittoo wrote:
Indeed. And our gates are constantly going eastwards.
What we have to look towards is that the onslaught hasnt ended, it probably never will until we take fight there. Its been only about 60 years since India was freed and its not that big lapse of time in historical context. The means will change, but the onslaught will keep coming. Its the core which they want, and minor ups and downs aside, the current is there. When we read history, we only read bigger events, and not the undercurrents. We read about a fight in 1526, then about the one in 1556. We jump in history while reading, but these are the currents that are important. Who knows if in 2500 Indians will read about 1971 as if it was a minor war, with a mention of 2-3 lines, and then about a bigger event that is yet to happen.

Oh and, Indian history is one depressing read.
Yes, the entrire Indian independence with 14 Prime Ministers is in compariosn just equivalent to the reign of Aurangzeb.

Does someone know how many sikhs were in India after partition including refugees? It looks like the sikh population has not grown much since Independence whereas Muslim population has grown more than 5 times.
The sikhs have the lowest birth rate in India so its very possible that their population hasnt grown significantly. Sikhs were about 2% of population of India, so about 7 million to 9 million would be a decent estimate I guess. I searched but could not find a concrete data.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by ramana »

If you have only a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. As I said before a stable Afghanistan is a key requirment. I would like GOI to announce a set amount of aid(~$1B for starters) with proviso they source half from India and other half from all countries in SAARC that will give them a good deal.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by SBajwa »

Our gates are constantly shrinking towards the Gangatic belts because we have forgotten to stood up to the enemy! I am tired of hearing the cowardly argument that "Pakistan is a cancer and we have gotten rid of it" is no good. How many cancers will you get rid of? Can you? nope!! Only way to get rid of such cancer is to face it head on and kill it with full confidence., shying away from such cancer/people/religion/ethos/cultures will only result in self destruction.

As long as Salafi, Deobandi people are alive in Indian subcontinent the cancer will keep on growing from all cities (today kashmir, tomorrow aligarh, hyderabad, etc)., only solution is to LEGISLATE THAT THE SALAFI DEOBANDI ISLAM IS ILLEGAL IN INDIA. and there is no personal law what so ever!! only law that exists in indian subcontinent is for the people living in indian subcontinent irrespective of their religion affiliation (common civil and criminal code) But who will do it? So!! our only option is to wither away into oblivion., which MMS is accelerating.

MMS declaring the Guru Gobind Singh's words "Jab Aav ki Audh Nidhaan Bane, at hi tab rann main jhujj maroon" in parliament is like a Hijra declaring love to a Bollywood heroine. Everybody knows that Hijra is incapable of a basic function of being in love with a woman but people (who leerily look at the heroine) cheer along!! and that is vast vast majority of indian nation.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by SBajwa »

The sikhs have the lowest birth rate in India so its very possible that their population hasnt grown significantly. Sikhs were about 2% of population of India, so about 7 million to 9 million would be a decent estimate I guess. I searched but could not find a concrete data.
My theory is that Sikhs are so patriotic indians that they listen to all the family planning "Bakwas" and practice it before anybody else in India!!!! and thus low birth rates. BTW.. Sikhs are 2.5% of Canadian population and still might survive.!!! remember there is an old saying that "Sikhs have been given the lordship by the God Itself".
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by SBajwa »

If you have only a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. As I said before a stable Afghanistan is a key requirment. I would like GOI to announce a set amount of aid(~$1B for starters) with proviso they source half from India and other half from all countries in SAARC that will give them a good deal.
Stable Afghanistan will never happen!!!! due to the nature of the people and people living in its proximity. unless we decide to raise another 10 divisions of Army and Airforce to be permanantly stationed in Afghanistan!!
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by svinayak »

SBajwa wrote:
Stable Afghanistan will never happen!!!! due to the nature of the people and people living in its proximity. unless we decide to raise another 10 divisions of Army and Airforce to be permanantly stationed in Afghanistan!!
This is the reason that containment strategy is required.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Airavat »

kittoo wrote:
Sanju wrote:quoting: Prem "The one lesson we keep forgetting , has not learned and most probably in urgent need to learn is that we did not take the battle to enemy's home ....edited"

Afghanistan was once our front gate and part of our courtyard! :cry:
Indeed. And our gates are constantly going eastwards....Oh and, Indian history is one depressing read.
Kittoo, Sanju, and Prem, you need to study military history to find answers to such questions. You will find that even the Delhi Sultanate, ruled by the same invaders, could not hit back at the Mongols based in Central Asia (the Chagtai Khanate). The Mongols repeatedly invaded and ravaged the Sultanate for more than a century, sacking Meerut on one occasion, but the Muslims failed to mount a single counter-campaign into the Mongol territory....WHY?

This same question was asked in the Historical Battles thread.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by svinayak »

Airavat wrote:
The Mongols repeatedly invaded and ravaged the Sultanate for more than a century, sacking Meerut on one occasion, but the Muslims failed to mount a single counter-campaign into the Mongol territory....WHY?

This same question was asked in the Historical Battles thread.
India needs a ambush strategy along that axis. This strategy should be able to ambush and cut off any force from getting support and replenishment. There is no point fighting head on in that axis.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by ramana »

SBajwa wrote:
If you have only a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. As I said before a stable Afghanistan is a key requirment. I would like GOI to announce a set amount of aid(~$1B for starters) with proviso they source half from India and other half from all countries in SAARC that will give them a good deal.
Stable Afghanistan will never happen!!!! due to the nature of the people and people living in its proximity. unless we decide to raise another 10 divisions of Army and Airforce to be permanantly stationed in Afghanistan!!
Now you understand where I am coming from. India needs to do whatever to ensure Afghan stability. And if it means raising 10 more divisions so be it. I also think it means to get more active support to the regime in Afghanistan so it can stand up to blackmailers.

BTW its not family planning bu girl child foetiside. Visit India Forum where this is quite well discussed.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Pranav »

SBajwa wrote:Our gates are constantly shrinking towards the Gangatic belts because we have forgotten to stood up to the enemy! I am tired of hearing the cowardly argument that "Pakistan is a cancer and we have gotten rid of it" is no good. How many cancers will you get rid of? Can you? nope!! Only way to get rid of such cancer is to face it head on and kill it with full confidence., shying away from such cancer/people/religion/ethos/cultures will only result in self destruction.
Was it not Sun Tzu who said that "The best General is he who can win without fighting". Paks need to collapse on the East German model. The bankruptcy of the Islamist nationalism that underpins TSP must become absolutely obvious.

"Winning without fighting" does not mean, however, that there is no willingness or capacity to fight. In fact, there must be overwhelming military superiority.

But the question is, do we have a story to sell, that is vastly superior to the Islamist nationalist narrative? Our own house is in a mess. The decolonization process is still incomplete, there are too many collaborators, and in fact we are in danger of sliding backwards towards colonial status.

Once we have a nationalist government, and a well-administered state, that is the time we can begin radiating our influence.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by ramana »

Pranav, It was Chanakya who said that while taking Pataliputra by intrigue. What he said is "the best victory is one where the enemy defeats himself!"
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by surinder »

Why would any sane person want to mount an invasion with the intent to rule in to Central Asia? This land is barren, resource poor, with bad terrain, poor civilization, bad climate. People mount attacks on rich areas. All what that India really needed to was to control the Khyber pass *at all costs*. Once you control this, you have sealed the genie. A historian I read recently was wondering why the entire nation of India could not collectively pool its resources and do this most basic strategy?
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Pranav »

surinder wrote:Why would any sane person want to mount an invasion with the intent to rule in to Central Asia? This land is barren, resource poor, with bad terrain, poor civilization, bad climate. People mount attacks on rich areas. All what that India really needed to was to control the Khyber pass *at all costs*. Once you control this, you have sealed the genie. A historian I read recently was wondering why the entire nation of India could not collectively pool its resources and do this most basic strategy?
Yes, it is a mystery.

In fact, if you look at the geography of the area, if you go northwards from Attock towards Charsadda, and then west towards Peshawar, it is all flat, fertile land. Therefore, it must have been a part of Punjab historically. Even today, there are a large number of Punjabi/Hindko speakers. (Bye the way, are the Pashtuns in this area migrants from the Jalalabad-Ghazni-Kandhahar areas?) The single province of Punjab must have had a much higher population than Afghanistan. In fact, the Kabul Shahi dynasty were said to be Punjabis, so they probably had access to the resources of Punjab.

But one should also look into the effects of climate. The medieval warm period was from AD 950–1250, which may have led to increased agricultural productivity in Central Asia, and therefore excess population available for use as cannon-fodder.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Pulikeshi »

brihaspati wrote: Pulikeshi ji, slight disagreement.
B,

We are talking in parallel. India, the nation-state and not any "undefined core" that exists in the corridors of power, today views the worries to its West as a problem of and between nation-states. In a sense, India wants Pakistan to become a responsible neighbor and no more. Similarly, India would like to see a stable Afghanistan, to ensure the safety and security of the citizens of India, but no more. The example of the Jews you gave does not apply. As even after a million persecutions the peoples of Bharat seem to be suffering from collective amnesia. The jingo minority, while important, is insignificant in terms of influence or impact. Bharat today remains as a tattered remnants of a once advanced civilization, the current nation-state of India is at best agnostic and at worst inimical to the civilization of Bharat. Not a very cheerful situation this.
brihaspati wrote: Partition was a compromise, not a permanent feature it is now being sought to be imposed as. The core is moving more and more towards an awarenes sof the need for the subsequent stages. It is only a matter of time and provocation - both internal and external.
If you parse my argument. Historically, every incarnation of a nation-state built on Bharatiya civilization has been a reaction. A political ideological core never came about as from antiquity the gana-rajya system has always been in vogue. Whenever these cores arose it was invariably in response to an external threat. In this sense, I am arguing that even India of today is no different. This is a different view than one where we view Partition as a temporary state or a compromise or a malicious or otherwise solution the British condemned the sub-continent to in their haste to leave. I do not share your optimism that the current ideological core - whatever their political affiliation - offer much to either the civilization of Bharat or the nation-state of India. What is India? How can one change the world if one does not even define oneself in the simplest of terms.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Airavat »

surinder wrote:Why would any sane person want to mount an invasion with the intent to rule in to Central Asia?
The question asked was on "hitting back" not conquest.
surinder wrote:All what that India really needed to was to control the Khyber pass *at all costs*.
Which again begs the question why the original invaders, who founded the Delhi Sultanante, also fail to hold these mountain passes against the Mongols??

While spending resources in trying to invade the barren wastes of western Rajasthan.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Sri »

History has proven again and again, that whenever India has lost control of the Khyber, it has ushered in foreign invaders. Ancient times, this job was more or less fell upon 'Kamboj' and 'Gandhar' mordern day 'Afghanistan and Pakistan'. Wall was first breached by Alexander then by many more. One of the reasons why Alexander's campaign was so much of a turning point in history is because, after this Kamboj / Afghanistan stopped considering itself as part of Mother India. One of the reasons why partition is such a tragedy is because now Gandhar / Pakistan doesn't consider itself a part of Bharatha.

Image

India before Alexander... various Pads and Janpads....
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Airavat »

Sri wrote:History has proven again and again, that whenever India has lost control of the Khyber, it has ushered in foreign invaders.
All frontiers need to be protected. At this point, the Himalayan frontier is more vulnerable, across which sits a much bigger power than Pakistan.

The Europeans came by the sea route, as did the founders of two Deccan Sultanates.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Sri »

Airavat wrote:
Sri wrote:History has proven again and again, that whenever India has lost control of the Khyber, it has ushered in foreign invaders.
All frontiers need to be protected. At this point, the Himalayan frontier is more vulnerable, across which sits a much bigger power than Pakistan.

The Europeans came by the sea route, as did the founders of two Deccan Sultanates.

I agree Sir. But both Europeans and Deccan Sultanate guys came as traders. And traders they were for thousands of years. The kind of aggression we got from Khyber was of a very different nature.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by brihaspati »

Pulikeshi wrote
We are talking in parallel. India, the nation-state and not any "undefined core" that exists in the corridors of power, today views the worries to its West as a problem of and between nation-states. In a sense, India wants Pakistan to become a responsible neighbor and no more. Similarly, India would like to see a stable Afghanistan, to ensure the safety and security of the citizens of India, but no more. The example of the Jews you gave does not apply. As even after a million persecutions the peoples of Bharat seem to be suffering from collective amnesia. The jingo minority, while important, is insignificant in terms of influence or impact. Bharat today remains as a tattered remnants of a once advanced civilization, the current nation-state of India is at best agnostic and at worst inimical to the civilization of Bharat. Not a very cheerful situation this.
Pulikeshi ji, yes we are perhaps going in parallels. But the reason for this "parallax" is that you are giving the "nation-state" as the single actor and the "commons" as apathetic - the greatest importance. I on the otherhand have always believed in the power of the idea to change and reignite a nation if the basic tradition/core philosophy is somehow retained. I have both practical/experiential as well as conviction reasons to trust the "commons" to rise under appropriate provocations and when they see leadership they can trust. I would earnestly wish you talk of "regimes" rather than equating them with "nation". What a certain regime does at the moment will definitely affect us in the future consequences - but a regime is not equal to the nation. A regime comes into power as the apparent optimal solution between a nations' aspirations at a particular time and the hostile conditions or forces it faces at that time. It is a two-stage game and not a one stage one as it is typically represented.

I am really not concerned about existing regimes. I cannot do much about changing them. I look to the future and think of what I can do to make a more appropriate regime happen in the future. That is where our efforts should focus on.
If you parse my argument. Historically, every incarnation of a nation-state built on Bharatiya civilization has been a reaction. A political ideological core never came about as from antiquity the gana-rajya system has always been in vogue. Whenever these cores arose it was invariably in response to an external threat. In this sense, I am arguing that even India of today is no different. This is a different view than one where we view Partition as a temporary state or a compromise or a malicious or otherwise solution the British condemned the sub-continent to in their haste to leave. I do not share your optimism that the current ideological core - whatever their political affiliation - offer much to either the civilization of Bharat or the nation-state of India. What is India? How can one change the world if one does not even define oneself in the simplest of terms.
The reactive nature of regimes you speak of, comes because we wrote out the term "initiative" and "active intervention" in our surroundings from our civilizational doctrine. It is a typical risk-avoidance syndrome masquerading under high-philosophical sophistry about compassion and abjurence of violence. I have pointed out many times that such behaviour in the elite and regimes in India coincide with the growth of the "mercantilist" behaviour - the idea that everything can be solved through and exchangeable against money. (the "mercantilists" could not grow however unless the risk-takers had created the conditions for them to flourish - before).

The phenomenon you speak of coincides with the strange interregnum of Buddhism, perhaps even Jainism. It worked for a time because there was no challenge to the doctrine through consequnces because of the effects of a long period of prior "active intervention" had pacified the disturbing elements. You can see that this pacifist, non-intrevntionist phase comes after the Mauryan experience - where Indian power was projected officially way beyond the heartland. This gave a false sense of security by default which allowed a reactive over-layer to develop among the regimes in power.

My point is that if this reactive nature was really an integral part of the "nation-sate" then it would have never fought back when the regimes and "nation-states" were formally lost. But the commons indeed fought back, without formally having any "nation" as per your definition, and they were not all coming from descendants of older top-dogs. The delay in the action shown by the regime and the commons is obvious - for the commons woiuld wait for the regime to lead and take action - that in fact would be the understanding that would result after generations of struggle between the ruler and the ruled. This gap in the reaction times between regimes which fail to keep the contract and the commons which take up the job in their own hands should not be seen as an overwhelmingly reactive approach.

I am an optimist about reversal of the Partition because I can sense that "my" people are basically active. They have simply lost sight of leaders they can trust and will not show that they are willing to suffer for a national cause until they see the leaders who are worth such sacrifices. I dont think of them as reactive but rather pro-active at this stage. I trust my people and not regimes.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by jambudvipa »

Atriji,excellent posts on the centrifugal centres of Indian power and the role of the marathas.What never ceases to surprise me is the hostility towards the historical role of the Marathas, exhibited not only by many historians (who have their own agendas) but also quite a few Indians as well .Difficult to understand the reasons for this hostility.
Brihaspatiji: My understanding of the “core” is that it is essentially made of two parts.
1. The driving layer or force is the spiritual aspect .I believe (correct me if wrong) this is what you mean when you refer to the actions of the present day rulers/people being unconsciously guided by the core. I visualise the spiritual aspect like the ocean. It ebbs in a few places and rises in others. The spiritual force behind our sanatana dharma never really died out, even in places which have gone completely into the abhrahamic fold (ie Afg, Pak etc) it is still dormant. Much like low tide, it would be a big mistake to think this as a permanent situation.
2. The physical manifestation: I think this is the “core” being discussed here i.e. physical tracts of landmass with accompanying populations, kingdoms etc. I do not believe we should strait jacket ourselves to the convention of a single core which is shifting through the ages. This has invariably led to try and fix the blame for our civilisational troubles onto certain regions e.g. The gangetic plains etc.
What I believe to be more realistic is the existence of multiple “physical cores” on whose destruction/dissolution, the spiritual tide recedes and after the remaining cores are consolidated, rises up again to swallow the uncovered land.

To get a proper understanding of dynamics behind our civilisation it is important to let go of the rigidity enforced on our minds by a western education and the stultification of our outer culture.

Atriji has given an excellent analysis and graphical description of the physical cores. The main tracts could be further divided into sub cores. e.g. Sindh and Afghanistan could be two different cores influenced by the same forces. Afg fell to the invaders in its entirety nearly 250 years after Sindh came under muslim rule, which to me suggests two different cores.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by brihaspati »

jambudvipa ji,
in a previous incarnation of the "strategic scenario" thread, we had discussed "core" at length, but I am not sure this threa dis available on the archive. This will go OT here, and admin may soon swoop down on you. If you want you can discuss this again in the "future scenario thread". My thesis on that previous thread, briefly was that river systems created conditions for large societies to develop common cooperative models and hence a common core culture. The Gangetic-Punjab belt was the largest of this systems geographically and hence created the centre of gravity by sheer population and productivity. However the prosperity eventually emascualted the culture and leadership was taken over by risk-avoiding mercantilist philosphies which at the same time attracted looters from more famished outside. This led to the physical fall of the cultures and the core divided up into three groups by reaction - the stay-put-fighters who got liquidated, the stay-put compromisers willing to lick inavding boots to save skin and wealth, the escapees who retreat into more difficult terrain to keep the core as an ideology alive to regroup and regain power.

This is the reason I insist on using the terrain/geographical basis and identification of "core' as subsidiary and accessory but not the detrmining factor in identifying a "core". The different "core" that is supposed to be driving the separative tendenceis in the west and east end of this Indo-Gangetic plains come from the local consolidations around river systems - and is only a geographical factor. Geographical factors remain important in the context of agrarian economies - and they should not be used to model all economies at all levels of technologies forever into the future.

If there was any separative tendenceies arising out of separations in river subsystems in the past, it is not so important now in the days of technologiy and knowledge economies. That should no longer determine separate cores. We can see this in the increasingly desperate manner in which the Pakis have to maintain this "separation" based on ideology - the core debate has now shifted to "ideology" and not "region". This is an indicator that geography is no longer the excuse. It should not be used to justify existence of claims of separate cores around which separate warring nations exist. Basically they are trying to extend the mindset of more famished regions who came to loot the heartland into an area that is part of the heartland.

If there was any physical justification, it was in the past of geography based agrarian economies - no longer it is valid.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by jambudvipa »

Bji,thanks for the datailed reply .
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Pulikeshi »

brihaspati wrote:
Pulikeshi ji, yes we are perhaps going in parallels. But the reason for this "parallax" is that you are giving the "nation-state" as the single actor and the "commons" as apathetic - the greatest importance. I on the otherhand have always believed in the power of the idea to change and reignite a nation if the basic tradition/core philosophy is somehow retained. I have both practical/experiential as well as conviction reasons to trust the "commons" to rise under appropriate provocations and when they see leadership they can trust.
B,

A humble gentleman who educated me in strategy would have said, "So what?" :mrgreen:

Leave my pessimism alone for a minute. What I think we are missing is that the commons have always reacted they have never pro-actively created a nation-state based on a civilizational or other ideology. There is always external and internal provocation or stimulation. However, I do not see any evidence for a non-reactionary, pro-active construct of a nation-state being carved out by the commons. The commons have enjoyed the benefits of the civilizational framework which provided them a network-social-contract. I agree with your point on "mercantilism" tendencies is well taken - there is sufficient evidence for that in historic literature. We can delve into the psychology and economics of the human actions. For those of you who ask that India stabilize Afghanistan with troops, please remember the commons response when the plane was hijacked to Afghanistan. A nation-state, especially a responsible one, will always act as a unified reflection of its commons.

Therefore, a nation-state is by definition a single entity. It may have many actors, but there can only be one Prathama (Prime). The ideology of this entity is a collective narrative on how this entity sees itself in terms of its surroundings as well as intrinsically. What is India's current narrative?

Pakistan defined itself as not India. India defined herself as? "Multicultural, Secular, Democratic, Socialist Republic? :shock: :evil:

So that must make Pakistan: Purely Pakjabi, Islamic, un-Democratic, Anti-social Dictatorship.

Some of you are probably nodding your head going that makes sense - for you: Is that the best you got?
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by ramana »

Sri, Alexander wasn't the first to breach the Khyber. It was Darius I of Persia who had Punjab as one of his provinces. Alexander's raid wasnt too significant. In about two to three centuries the Indo Greeks became Indian. It is sginficant of Angl-Saxon merchants/interlopers who claim Greek inheritance and thus justify their colonization as an extension of his raid.

What I think is needed is to revive the civlizational core and return Kamboja to the fold. Kamboja always needed the Indo gangetic plains subsidy to survive. In the period from Darius to post Alexander, as you point out Kamboja became Indo Greek and later Buddhist. While it was awaiting a change in Buddhism, the Islamic horde got to them and changed the dynamic for a long ime. As modern India revives its economic, military and cultural power the tug to reunite with the Indo Gangetic plain is reviving.

As I said elsewhere the creation of Pakistan has cut off the Central Asia from Indo-Gangetic plain and has to be bypassed in the modern world.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by brihaspati »

Pulikeshi ji,
those Indians who "reacted" about the Kandhara hijack - and shouted the "jo mange sab kuch de do", were all relatives of people who could afford to fly by plane. What fraction of the Indian commons do they represent? :)
I would see the apparent non-chalance with which the Indian electorate sends back this or that member of the elite to power - still a part of the general disengagement of the commons with the rashtra. They may not even identify with the ruling regime as belonging to their societal experience. The rashtra is just a temporary compromise that they have made. They have a strict bargaining relationship with this rashtra - because they do not consider the rulers as belonging to their own. Neither do they see leaders rising from within (or even from elite origins) whom they can trust to go along with the "nation". The history of the freedom movement if ever properly told after the "dynasty" is long gone, would write about the "commons" taking initiative when they found inspiring leadership. I can reel off hundreds of cases I have studied myself - cases that will never appear in any history by the Congress which shares in this the character of the "cult of the personality" among the Communists and the Brits to a large extent. The betrayal of the "freedom movement" dealt a big blow to resurgence of commons trust in "leadership" and lent wings to the Communists and regionalists.

The ruling regime that crystallized around JLN was a gradual resurgence of exactly those elements that had once collaborated withe the colonial regime. I personally know about many candidates in my birthpace who were given a "ticket" by the Delhi-Billis who had actively informed on freedom fighters and been socially boycotted by large sections of local society. The very same criminal elements who had once been maintained by the British secret services in India to act against political "agitators" were now bankrolled to cow down villagers in submission. A favourite technique was to attack the "resistant' or potential anti-voters households at night and bring out the key man or woman there. The man would be finsihed off by rolling a bamboo pole on the chest that broke the ribs and punctured the lungs or crushed the heart. The woman would typically be raped and hung.

What would you expect from a "commons" that sees its inspiring leadership eliminated or sidelined, erstwhile "ponies" (meaning the Hindi word commonly used to denote the particular mixed-breed) and bad gentry protected and brought into leadership by the rashtryia machinery that they themselves had helped to set up? Anyone here having family penetration into regions that burst into flames during the summer of 42 - in UP, MP and Bengal can explore how these very same regions reacted post-Independence to the Delhi regime. In Midnapore in Bengal, the entire populace turned hostile and was one of the earliest areas to welcome the communists. They had suffered the hardest and fought the longest agains the Brits in 42.

Partition was a betrayal by a coterie around JLN, probably not deliberately entirely but with a good deal of manipulation by the British. We have to get over the wound-licking of that betrayal, and trust in the commons. If you are trustworthy as a leader, the commons have an unerring instinct to rally in your support. They will not do it in the way they now bargain through the electoral process. Forgive me my passion and conviction.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by ramana »

brihaspati wrote:
...
The ruling regime that crystallized around JLN was a gradual resurgence of exactly those elements that had once collaborated withe the colonial regime. I personally know about many candidates in my birthpace who were given a "ticket" by the Delhi-Billis who had actively informed on freedom fighters and been socially boycotted by large sections of local society. The very same criminal elements who had once been maintained by the British secret services in India to act against political "agitators" were now bankrolled to cow down villagers in submission. .....

What would you expect from a "commons" that sees its inspiring leadership eliminated or sidelined, erstwhile "ponies" (meaning the Hindi word commonly used to denote the particular mixed-breed) and bad gentry protected and brought into leadership by the rashtryia machinery that they themselves had helped to set up? Anyone here having family penetration into regions that burst into flames during the summer of 42 - in UP, MP and Bengal can explore how these very same regions reacted post-Independence to the Delhi regime. In Midnapore in Bengal, the entire populace turned hostile and was one of the earliest areas to welcome the communists. They had suffered the hardest and fought the longest agains the Brits in 42.
...
The first General Elections in 1952 were clean with those who participated in freedom struggle being fielded. However in the second Genral Elections the INC was scared of the resurgence of the Communists and hence adopted this very tactic you mention and introduced caste vote banks to ensure winning of their party seats. In reality they feared a non-Congress govts in the regions could become low hanging fruits for foreign subversion.They had this inordinate fear of centrifugal tendencies in India and wanted to bring about one party rule with INC in power everywhere. It was their version of conquest by ballot. This zeal to achieve conquest led to their loss of cleanliness and brought criminal elements intot hte governance system. As a consequence it led to more disenchantment and alienation with the people.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Atri »

Pulikeshi ji,

can you drop me an email on my hawai-khat pata?

chiron206 (at) gmale (dot) company

thanks...
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by brihaspati »

pulikeshi ji, if you don't mind can you mail me at dikgaj at geechitthi dot com? Some interesting issues you raised but have queries perhaps not fit for forum! The instantaneous choices made by various local powers as to which side of the acession they will adhere to - in 47 - like the initial dilemma of the Khan of Kalat or some among the Pakhtuns is problematic. They could be wanting to or considering joining a 'distant" non-neighbour (India) because of local-rivalries. Would you also consider them as symbols of inherent "partitions"?
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by Karna_A »

Airavat wrote:
Sri wrote:History has proven again and again, that whenever India has lost control of the Khyber, it has ushered in foreign invaders.
All frontiers need to be protected. At this point, the Himalayan frontier is more vulnerable, across which sits a much bigger power than Pakistan.

The Europeans came by the sea route, as did the founders of two Deccan Sultanates.
Well, History is not a proper reflection of future. It's just wrong to give undue importance to Khyber pass.
It is said that all Generals fight the last War. Khyber pass and all other passes have lost their importance in pin point accuracy missile age.
Khyber pass is to Indian subcontinet what Gibraltar is to UK. A place of vital importance and a choke point in past but of very less importance in the present world.
Khyber pass has no value in modern times with nookes and strategic Air Forces. 2 Agni have the capability to make Khyber pass unpassable for next 1000 years.
Japan had no Khyber pass still US won the war just with Air Force and 2 nookes.

India does not need AFG or Khyber etc. It just needs 10 Arihants(like Ohio Class)roaming in Arabian Sea and Indian Ocean.
On different note, BD, Nepal and SL are way more important to Indian security than AFG ever will be.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by surinder »

Karna_A wrote:Well, History is not a proper reflection of future. It's just wrong to give undue importance to Khyber pass.
Well it is also said that those who do not remember history are condemned to repeat it!!!

No one is suggesting that securing the Khyber pass is *ALL* you do. You do this *AND* do other things.

At this point, though, it is a mute point. Khyber is in Pakistani hands, and they are our buffer (or filter or amplifier) state. I was of course, referring to the past 1000 years, when the islaamic hordes came down from the Khyber.

History is romantic and all that, but right now before our eyes a slow motion partition is in action, a slow motion ethnic cleansing is already happening. This one, we *CAN* do something about. Hindu/Sikh are slowly being pushed out of Kashmir. One day someone will ask, why was the entire might of India not put into ensuring that hindus/sikhs were not ejected out of Kashmir? At least today in Kashmir we *can* do something about it, tomorrow we may not even be able do anything because we may not even have Kashmir with us.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by surinder »

brihaspati wrote:The ruling regime that crystallized around JLN was a gradual resurgence of exactly those elements that had once collaborated withe the colonial regime. I personally know about many candidates in my birthpace who were given a "ticket" by the Delhi-Billis who had actively informed on freedom fighters and been socially boycotted by large sections of local society.
B, this is most shocking. I did not know that. This is an openly treasonous act.

People usually decry the fact that revolutions are violent and tend to cleanse large segments of population, but to me it seems that if you want a massive change, you have to have a massive cleansing (although no necessarily physical elimination). MKG & JLN and INC worked so hard to avoid revolution, and this is a natural result of it. The dross was not purged and it rose to power once again because it had neve been assaulted.
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Re: A look back at the partition

Post by svinayak »

]
brihaspati wrote:The ruling regime that crystallized around JLN was a gradual resurgence of exactly those elements that had once collaborated withe the colonial regime. I personally know about many candidates in my birthpace who were given a "ticket" by the Delhi-Billis who had actively informed on freedom fighters and been socially boycotted by large sections of local society.


This explains lot of things including the marxists and communists from the colonial era. These folks found lot of legitimacy in the ruling congress regime in the first 20 years after independence. They were aligned inside the power center after 1975 and became the elite and DIE after 1980s.
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