Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2010

[putnanja]

Hail MMS! Hail SSM!
Thank you both for ushering in an era of Hindi-Paki bhai-bhai.

I only hope he doesn't repeat the same fiasco with Pakistan what Krishna Menon did with China!!

[Karna_A]

Blanket signal for Pak talks

This is worse than---Morarji Desai-Kahuta & Haji Pir sellout, Indira Gandhi-Shimla accord walk and IK Gujral-Lets dismantle RAW---all put together
.

How can talking be any worse than what you have listed above?

The policy always has to be velvet gloves on iron fist. Talking deals with velvet gloves. Morarji Desai-Kahuta & Haji Pir sellout and IK Gujral-Lets dismantle RAW were much bigger blunders and were equivalent of rusting the iron fist.
As long as MMS takes care of the iron fist, it does not matter what happens with the velvet glove.

[abhishek_sharma]

In Shift, Pakistan Considers Attack on Militant Lair

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/30/world ... pstan.html

[Anujan]

MMS would have to do a Ashtavakra the moment DCH starts singing.

[Sen_K]

Khurshid Mahmud Kasuri, former paki FM on the Kashmir pact to be signed by MMS and Musharraf

The back-channel negotiators met in different locations in many countries to preserve the secrecy of the process. They brought the drafts to the principals in both the countries, where changes were made and sent back to the other side and so on and so forth.

It was after approximately three years of such painstaking work, which sometimes even involved changing punctuation in different drafts, that the two governments felt that they had agreed on the draft of an agreement, towards the end of 2006.
.
.
The major features of the draft Kashmir agreement involved gradual demilitarization as the situation improved, self-governance and a joint mechanism involving Kashmiris from both sides as well as presence of Pakistani and Indian representatives in this process. The purpose was to improve the comfort level of Kashmiris. The joint mechanism envisaged cooperation in various fields including exploitation of water resources and hydroelectric power. Self-governance also provided maximum possible powers to Kashmiris to manage their political, economic, financial and social matters and those pertaining to economic development as well as for enhanced travel and economic interaction on both sides of the LoC. For practical purposes, as far as the Kashmiris on both sides are concerned, the border would be made irrelevant for movement of goods and people. The agreement, though not ideal, was the best possible under the circumstances.

In the very nature of things, it is impossible to produce a solution which will be equally acceptable to every one. For this reason, we decided that the arrangement will need a review at the end of 15 years, during which its implementation would be monitored with great care by all the parties concerned, and in the light of the experience, this arrangement could be further improved.

Rajamohan writes:

Having gone the furthest in negotiating a solution to the Kashmir question, Singh’s problem was about finding if Gilani’s civilian government and the Pak Army Chief, Gen. Ashfaq Pervez Kayani, are on board with the framework for a J&K settlement that he had worked out with Gen Musharraf.

MMS is embarking on a journey again, which will lead to the above mentioned deal, this time with Gilani.
What's the guarantee that Pakistan will acknowledge (let alone close) it's terror camps and prevent terror activities in India, that the water problem of Pakis will be solved, that the Dawood, Masood Azhar, Memons, Babbar et al would be handed over to India? What is the profit for India? Will it be like many of the Paki promises which they continuously break themselves?
I'm somehow forced to remember Oslo Accords (though it isn't exactly apt for this situation)

[shiv]

Tidbits from discussion on Times Now:
Parthasarathy - Why is MMS talking to Gilani? If the topic of focus for India is terror, he should talk to the Paki military. Gilani knows nothing more than an hawaldar standing outside the GHQ.

And he added, endorsed by Maroof Raza - "We need to talk to the military". I don't know why the India government seems tobelieve that just because civilians head the government in India the same holds true fro Pakistan.

[shiv]

Security. Pakistan has transferred between 130,000 and 150,000 troops from its Indian frontier to its Afghan border for an offensive against militants in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas and Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa Province, Reuters reported 28 April, citing a Pentagon report. The report said the shift represented the biggest deployment of Pakistani troops on the country's western border in its history, but it is unlikely to have an immediate impact on fighting in Afghanistan.

Comment: Something is wrong with the math and with the comment. The numbers would represent a shift of at least eight divisions of infantry combat personnel, according to the Pakistan Army web site and Wikipedia. No reporting sources indicate Pakistan has made a transfer from the Indian border of that magnitude. It simply has not taken place.

I don't know "the truth" but 140,000 is a figure that has appeared elsewhere recently. This is a jump over earlier figures of 70-80,000

[sum]

How can talking be any worse than what you have listed above?

The policy always has to be velvet gloves on iron fist. Talking deals with velvet gloves. Morarji Desai-Kahuta & Haji Pir sellout and IK Gujral-Lets dismantle RAW were much bigger blunders and were equivalent of rusting the iron fist.
As long as MMS takes care of the iron fist, it does not matter what happens with the velvet glove.

Do you really believce a iron fist is anywhere in the picture with MMS at the helm ( he has been PM for 6 years now)?

[CRamS]

Rajamohan writes:

Singh knows that another major terror attack on India will shred his Thimphu bargain instantly. Having seen the dangers of moving slowly when circumstances were good, Singh probably sees the need to set a scorching pace for Indo-Pak dialogue this time around.

Boy, unless I am missing something, RM seems s@it scared that TSP will beat the crap out of us. "Scorching pace"? Why the desparation?

[Rony]

Sania got shock of her life in Pak . It is in Telugu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAtWCdcx ... r_embedded

[putnanja]

Boy, unless I am missing something, RM seems s@it scared that TSP will beat the crap out of us. "Scorching pace"? Why the desparation?

Maybe MMS isn't really sure he will be at the helm after the next elections? Book a Nobel prize right now?

[rohiths]

I don't think Pakistan has moved any troops from the Indian Border. This is just a number pulled out of somebody's musharaff to restart the piss process and provide farourable psy-ops.
Hell they were just doing those military exercises close to the Indian border just a few weeks back.
It is just a prelude for India to pull troops from the border and from Kashmir. I won't be surprised if that happens.
I suspect that some sort of agreement has already been reached on Kashmir which will involve India demilitarizing(troops pullout), giving more autonomy(back to pre-1953 status) division of J&K on communal lines(job quotas for districts) and increased trade on LoC, increased noise on water issues by Pakis. Probably after the troops have left, another Kargil will happen. (LoC moved by a few kms). Just that there won't be any war now. MMS will tell everything will be resolved by talks and Pakis will have Kashmir.

I think the deal is just not made public for the fear of retribution and public anger. Slowly steps will be taken and all will be revealed.

PS: My apologies for such negative talk. I can't hide my frustration against the so called leaders we have been blessed with. The present actions of the government are too dubious.If India can't deal with Pakistan, what else can it do?

[Pranav]

What's the guarantee that Pakistan will acknowledge (let alone close) it's terror camps and prevent terror activities in India, that the water problem of Pakis will be solved, that the Dawood, Masood Azhar, Memons, Babbar et al would be handed over to India? What is the profit for India? Will it be like many of the Paki promises which they continuously break themselves?
I'm somehow forced to remember Oslo Accords (though it isn't exactly apt for this situation)

No guarantee. But nothing in the deal makes the situation on the ground any worse than what it is now. But one should be wary of MMS trying to anything silly like vacating Siachen.

[Gagan]

On J&K the pakistanis are looking for a way to come back into the picture.

Their only leverage there is:
1. Terrorists from south Punjab represented by the likes of the LET
2. Hardliners in the valley like Geelani.

MMS won't achieve any peace with Pakistan, he will follow in the glorious traditions set by Morarji Desai and IK Gujral and end up opening a door for Pakistan.

What the Pakistanis couldn't achieve by Kargil, MMS will achieve by his peace efforts it seems.

Make no mistake. One of the aims that the pakistsnis had during Kargil was to show the separatists in the valley that they are a military force to rekon with, and will militarily support their acts of terror during a final takeover push. Their plan failed, when the Indian army uprooted them from the mountains of Drass and Kargil. They see MMS as weak, they will push for soft porous LOC and aim to be one of the players in the kashmir valley. They want to rebuild their sagging constituency there.

Their stock is so low in the valley that even prominent journalists in Pakistan have started saying that the people in the valley don't want to join pakistan, and are OK with the idea of remaining a part of India with some more autonomy.

MMS's efforts will only end up allowing the pakis in into kashmir.

[Gagan]

One more major terror attack and MMS will resign and Rahul Gandhi will be PM of India.

[sum]

I don't think Pakistan has moved any troops from the Indian Border. This is just a number pulled out of somebody's musharaff to restart the piss process and provide farourable psy-ops.
Hell they were just doing those military exercises close to the Indian border just a few weeks back.
It is just a prelude for India to pull troops from the border and from Kashmir. I won't be surprised if that happens.
I suspect that some sort of agreement has already been reached on Kashmir which will involve India demilitarizing(troops pullout), giving more autonomy(back to pre-1953 status) division of J&K on communal lines(job quotas for districts) and increased trade on LoC, increased noise on water issues by Pakis. Probably after the troops have left, another Kargil will happen. (LoC moved by a few kms). Just that there won't be any war now. MMS will tell everything will be resolved by talks and Pakis will have Kashmir.

I think the deal is just not made public for the fear of retribution and public anger. Slowly steps will be taken and all will be revealed.

PS: My apologies for such negative talk. I can't hide my frustration against the so called leaders we have been blessed with. The present actions of the government are too dubious.If India can't deal with Pakistan, what else can it do?

Another depressing read. More and more of the BRF gurus are saying similar things ( even those who earlier used to defend MMS at all costs) meaning something is seriously amiss.

MMS is truly looking more and more like a Manchurian candidate ( on Unkil and Pak's behalf)

[rsingh]

Is it possible that Gilani dumped Madhuri Gupta just before SAARC.............. good will bait and MMS took the bait. RAW and IB being caught watching IPL in offices got slap on musharraf.........................announced that M.GUPTA was being watched and nothing serious. MMS has agreed to talk to Baki Gilani to say thankyou.

[CRamS]

One more major terror attack and MMS will resign and Rahul Gandhi will be PM of India.

My prediction: There won't be for a while. TSP has agreed to scale back in return for MMS offering LOC++. Mark my word on this.

[Sri]

^^^
I think there is some deal MMS has agreed to. He might be waiting for parliament session to end. In any case if there is a deal being worked out, BJP and Left won't matter. His real challenge may be Pranab Da and PC.

Further, there is a good chance that both Pranab Da and PC have already been briefed. My contention is that both of them are in sync but want iron clad assurance that Pakistan will keep it's end of bargain. At some time I think either of them will be directly involved in negotiations.

Plan could be to do a major policy overhaul (as suggested above LOC++) and then stick it out like they did for Nuclear deal. If somehow the attempt fails.... make way for Rahul Baba...

[Carl_T]

I think the Purelanders need to insult MMS to his face a few times before the gubo-rment wakes up. That said he does seem pretty annoyed.

[derkonig]

MMS is from Pak, its unlikely anything will wake him up from his WKKism-induced stupor. If anything, we will only wake up when sekoolaar terrorists get caught.

[Gagan]

Yes I think MMS and GoI will wait till the parliament session gets over. There is too much muck raking that can occur inside the parliament and the media latches on.
For now there is an announcement of talks, the details will come by in the future.

Personally I don't see anything wrong in talking to pakistan.

But then why pay short shrift to the people killed in pakistan sponsored terror? They lost their lives in vain and the contempt that the leaders display for their deaths is shocking. What has the government done - legal or extra legal to bring the perpertrators to justice, why do the planners of these terror attacks have the pleasure of dying in a warm bed. Why is Hamid gul still alive and free instead of in a jail?

The pakistanis can't be let off because development is important to India and they will be let off so that they can't be a spoke in our growth.

I would say that dire warnings at a personal level need to issued. MMS - god bless his soul - being a babu is just not capable of delivering that message in the amritraj tenor. What's more I suspect he holds back the ones who can deliver it, by his forgive and forget.

[Gagan]

And I don't like the way MMS grabs the hand of that boob squeezer gilani and keeps shaking his hand. It rankles.

MMS is an intellectual par extraordinaire, extremely well educated, and that phucker gilani is a rustic bum from pakistani punjab.

Nothing against MMS, but the PM of India needs to have Panache and style, and the ability to threaten his adversaries. If a barak obama slaps India's PM's back, our PM should pat his back and pass on the complement. That is the attitude I want in a PM of India, not a socially inert and incapable personality. I know that MMS is no fool, and is meek only in his demeanor, but that attribute is not suited for the PM's chair.

[AjayKK]

And I don't like the way MMS grabs the hand of that boob squeezer gilani and keeps shaking his hand. It rankles.

You mean when Gilani extends his hand, PM MMS must withdraw and scratch his neck leaving Gilani embarassed

At long last, a firm step forward - Siddharth Varadrajan - April 30

Long article.

The history of India-Pakistan relations is full of examples of leaders from both countries travelling to distant points on the globe — from Tashkent and New York to Sharm el-Sheikh and Havana — to meet each other only to end up standing still. Meetings held in the subcontinent, on the other hand, have invariably led to breakthroughs, big and small. Think Simla and Lahore, Islamabad and Delhi. Each of these encounters produced conceptual breakthroughs that briefly carried some promise of momentum before being swamped by the forces of inertia, dead habit, treachery or bad faith that are the constants in this cursed relationship.

To the list of promising South Asian summits can now be added the name of Thimphu, where Manmohan Singh and Yusuf Raza Gilani met on Thursday. Defying naysayers within their respective establishments and wider strategic communities, the two Prime Ministers crafted a simple but elegant formula for breaking the current impasse, thereby ensuring that the process of engagement — stuck for several months — now has some chance of moving ahead.

Kashmir or Siachen- trust but verify.
Some guru must explain,
how can we trust and verify when the neighbour is bent to thrust (deeper inside in India) and terrify us?

[sum]

MMS is from Pak, its unlikely anything will wake him up from his WKKism-induced stupor. If anything, we will only wake up when sekoolaar terrorists get caught.

Derkoing-ji, your wish is INC's commmand:
X-post:
Ajmer Dargah blast case: Rajasthan ATS arrest suspected Abhinav Bharat member

The Rajasthan [ Images ] police has arrested a man having alleged links with a Hindu militant outfit in connection with the 2007 Ajmer Dargah bomb blast, which killed three people and injured over 30 others.

The accused, Devendra Gupta, is expected to be produced before a local court on Friday, police sources said.

Gupta, a resident of Bihari Ganj in Ajmer, was arrested by the Rajasthan Anti-Terrorism Squad on Wednesday night when he had gone to meet his ailing mother, the sources said.

He is allegedly linked with Hindu outfit Abhinav Bharat Sangathan and is suspected to be involved in the blast inside the Dargah of Khawaja Moinuddin Chishty at Ajmer in October 2007, they said.

Now that a Hindooo terrorist has been caught, time for both countries to forget the terrorists on each side from derailing the "friendship of the masses" and carry on with pappi-jhappi.

[sum]

At long last, a firm step forward - Siddharth Varadrajan - April 30

Long article.

^^ From the above article:

None of this will work, however, if the leadership in India and Pakistan succumbs to the temptation of playing to domestic galleries. Going by the record of the past few years, terrorists will attempt to destroy this latest attempt to restart the dialogue. Acting with maturity and restraint in the face of provocation will pay more dividends in the long run

Enough clues provided( i now consider SV to be the mouthpiece of MMS and so, what he is writing is what MMS/SSM is saying), esp from the above quoted part, that even the next 26/11 will lead to same old response like earlier. There will be no jhapad for Pak.

[Airavat]

Pappi-jhappi and fond memories

Over lunch, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, a member of the Sikh faith, mentioned to his counterparts that the ancestors of Pakistani Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani, a Sufi Muslim, helped build the Golden Temple.

Are Sufi Muslims Shias or Sunnis? Or are they a new category of purelanders soon to be declared non-Muslim?

[Sri]

Personally I don't see anything wrong in talking to pakistan.

But then why pay short shrift to the people killed in pakistan sponsored terror? They lost their lives in vain and the contempt that the leaders display for their deaths is shocking. What has the government done - legal or extra legal to bring the perpertrators to justice, why do the planners of these terror attacks have the pleasure of dying in a warm bed. Why is Hamid gul still alive and free instead of in a jail?

I would say that dire warnings at a personal level need to issued. MMS - god bless his soul - being a babu is just not capable of delivering that message in the amritraj tenor. What's more I suspect he holds back the ones who can deliver it, by his forgive and forget.

Gagan Ji, I feel sick about it too. All the bravado immediately after Mumbai was aimed at containing Indian public anger and NOT to contain Pakistan. On this forum itself people had predicted exactly what has panned out. I think during the media / diplomatic offensive, MMS and CO actually really thought they might get Pakistani's to actually do something about LeT. I remember Gilani even agreed to send the ISI fellow to India. All the evidence at that time were coming thick and fast, this further emboldened MMS.

But i guess things changed after Mc Chrystal took over in Afganistan. He came with a brief to get out of Afganistan and not to actually win their. Under due pressure, Kayani / Pakistani establishment during that time had 2 choices 1) Act against Taliban in SWAT / NWFP 2) Act against LeT. Ofcourse they understood where to act and how to milk it. Thing is that Pak Army was successful in containing these areas and in the process was able to convince US that they can deliver if they want to.

It is clear that US from that point on saw the merit in keeping the Indian rhetoric in check. London conference was watershed in as far as Pakistani and Indian perspective on Afganistan is concerned. Pakistan saw it's stars rising. India on the other hand was a helpless bystander.

The problem is thus. US knows, that getting anymore funding for Pakistan in the senate is now very tricky, with Kerry Lugar already passed. There is little Obama can do help Pakistan anymore financially. Remember the recent Washngton conference where General Kiyani himself lead the Pakistani team. He actually did't get anything on economy or military front. US didn't even give assurance that Indian will NOT be invited to give training to Afghan Army. But he got some assurances from US on India front.

On the other hand I think Indians were told they can continue their Afhan adventure, but keep the Pakistani's happy. For MMS, the choice is thus either to tow the US line, talk to Pakistan , keep tensions in checked and in quid pro quo keep the engagement on in Afganistan; or, Keep the pressure ON Pakistan to deliver LeT and hence lose US support in Afghanistan theater.

I think MMS has chosen.

[rkirankr]

There is no use of crying. The PM has a vision(or whatever it is) which is completely different from the existing view in the establishment. He has brought some key persons who share his vision (NSA). I do not think the historical and ideological background for the conflict is ever being considered. Iam not saying they are not aware of it. Only that the establishment does not give the same amount of weightage to it as many do it here.

I think late 2011 and 2012 to 2013 will be time for some drastic changes in JK status if this PM is able to retain his gaddi despite opposition from within INC. Any compromise from India to Pakis may result in more such voices or atleast voices across the country asking for greater autonomy , legislations to keep "outsiders" out of the state will result which will envitably result in more conflict. This is jingo view

However the establishment (PM and those who agree or share his vision)might see that if the JK problem is resolved(in the terms of pakis and wkks on the side of India), then pakis will have no reason to fight with India and the entire sub continent will be a economic power house. The Paki economy will be so much dependent on Indian economy in course of time that they may not think doing any harm. US and Europe will also support this as the entire subcontinent will be a huge market. In these people's view physical holding of JK and sticking to a rigid stance does not make sense because in a span of time entire subcontinent will be irreversibly linked in this economic powerhouse. GOI at that point of time will hold all the aces because India will always be more bigger than all these small entities and not be so much dependent on them whereas these entities such as pakis, Nepal, Bangladesh etc cannot do without India. So India can arm twist them as US does today to other as it holds all the economic leverage.

Ok someone asked for chankianess in this, Friday evening lotsa time to spend and rave and rant against the UPA. So my two cents . You all can if you find it funny.

Added later- I think something on these lines will be started in DDM to brainwash the masses. Expectt more seminars on economic potential in Northwest etc to be held.

[sum]

However the establishment (PM and those who agree or share his vision)might see that if the JK problem is resolved(in the terms of pakis and wkks on the side of India), then pakis will have no reason to fight with India and the entire sub continent will be a economic power house.

Is MMS really so naive?

What does he have to say about the newly raised "water war" issue? I am 400% sure that Junagarh and Hyderabad will come up next even *IF* J&K is "resolved" on paki terms. Will we then settle that also to paki satisfaction to ensure we are a "economic powerhouse"? Will there ever be a end to Paki demands?

[rkirankr]

I am 400% sure that Junagarh and Hyderabad will come up next even *IF* J&K is "resolved" on paki terms.

This is what the we Jingoes see , but the pappi jhappi group feels that everyone will be happy making money, lotsa money that they will forget religion, culture, civilizational roots, old friendships, old hatreds etc and it will be piss and piss everywhere.

[sum]

I am 400% sure that Junagarh and Hyderabad will come up next even *IF* J&K is "resolved" on paki terms.

This is what the we Jingoes see , but the pappi jhappi group feels that everyone will be happy making money, lotsa money that they will forget religion, culture, civilizational roots, old friendships, old hatreds etc and it will be piss and piss everywhere.

Could be but hasn't Pak hurt us the most when it was at its most prosperous and wealthiest ( 65, 89-90s) ?

What will magically change this time that the Pakis will get rich as well as not attck/pin-prick us?

[Gerard]

Pakistan to get two P-3C Orion surveillance aircraft

Pakistan is due to get in phases a total of 7 P-3 C Orion aircraft that are being upgraded by global security company Lockheed Martin.

As a major non-NATO ally of the United States, Pakistan will also acquire frigate USS McInerney later this summer under foreign military funding

[Sagrawal]

Self Deleted - Off topic.

[anupmisra]

Meanwhile, on a happy note, the purelanders admit to Kasab being one of their own, again!

Ajmal Kasab: School drop-out to gunman

Kasab was born and brought up in Faridkot, in the Punjab region of Pakistan

coming to Mumbai — home to India's popular Hindi-language film industry, Bollywood — “to see cinema”.

he joined the LT to get weapons training after deciding to embark on a life of crime but there have also been claims that his father duped him into doing it for money

One Faridkot farmer reportedly said that Kasab used to return to the village and talk of “freeing Kashmir”

There you have it. A homeboy who did his hometown proud by going to India "to see cinema" while "freeing Cashmere".

[Chandragupta]

I hope the GoI is not counting on a change of heart in Paa'stan once they become dependent on the Goliath Indian economy. A leech can never stop sucking blood. They had two options, cooperation & prosperity, and enmity & grass, they took the latter & have not shown the slightest hint of reconsidering their decision. I pray to all the 33 crore yindoo devtas that the WKK infested GoI understands this fundamental fact & works on a plan to erasing this blood sucking leech off the face of the planet.

[Jaspreet]

Sagrawal , you wrote

I am lurker for years

and followed it with an India-specific question in TSP thread.

Please ask the question in another thread.

[Lilo]

Dr Taxi

The time has gone when Sikhs used to dominate the taxi business here; now it’s the Pakistanis who rule.

Much has changed in the past decade or so. There was a time when people in Canada referred to Pakistan as an agricultural country and the Pakistanis here as doctors and engineers. But this perception has now been replaced by the image of taxi drivers. Every time I joke to my Ukrainian immigrant friend Lonny that his country is famous for producing prostitutes, he shouts back “and your country is good for taxi drivers”. Well, both work on street and it’s not easy.

[Suppiah]

There was some interest in the fate of Khwaja of ISI and some speculation..along with Khwaja himself, such speculation can be laid to rest...

Former ISI Khalid Khwaja found dead in Waziristan

He has been dispatched with a one way ticket to enjoy his quota of 72.

[Brad Goodman]

One more major terror attack and MMS will resign and Rahul Gandhi will be PM of India.

My prediction: There won't be for a while. TSP has agreed to scale back in return for MMS offering LOC++. Mark my word on this.

Just to expand your LOC++ idea. I think this is what might be in offer. For most part the LOC stays as it is. India gets Srinagar which will be drummed as victory for masses. For pakis they will be given territories where Indus flows. So they can go back and tell rakait mards that their water has been secured. With jinnah's jugular vien under tsp control they will spin it as victory and be happy.