Philip,Philip wrote:What strategic benefits? This is what a galaxy of ex-MEA mandarins have been saying,that where are the fruits of the
much touted "strategic relationship" wit the US,when Paki terror has not ceased,Headley/GIlani is untouchable to us,the perpetrators of 26/11 enjoy the freedom of Pak to merrily plot even further attacks and the US keeps on gifting Pak weaponry for it to use against India.Even in an article today,a former For.Sec. has questioned why the US is turning a blind eye to Pak's nuclear proliferation via China,keeping quiet on AQK and allowing China to provide co-proliferator Pak with more N-reactors.
Therefore,we have very little to gain strategically by buying from the US.In fact,we stand to lose massively instead,as the US can impose sanctions upon us and provide Pak with details of US tech that India is getting.Does anyone seriously think that Pak will not demand from the US more advanced F-16s and eqpt. if India buys either the F-16/F-18? Pak means far more to US interests right now because of the Af-Pak situ than docile ,"Gandhian",vegetarian,peacenik India,which does nothing but philosophise after every Paki terrorist attack! Our interests and protests are just flicked away like an insect by Uncle Sam.The aircraft chosen should not be US one.Provided that they meet IAF requirementts,Either a European one which has the least of US tech inside or the Russian MIG-35,and which gives us TOT that is worthwhile which will significantly assist India in developing its own indigenous aerospace indursty.
Do you know we still havent entered into any nuke reactor deal with US... because they want some no liability bill to be passed (under shadow of Union Carbide, perhaps). However, we have entered into such agreement with Russies and French.. Infact a better agreement with Russies - one that allow for continuing support for existing setup even in the event of future reactors put on hold.....avinash.rd wrote: I believe U.S. attitude towards India is changing. We got a nuclear deal which Pakistan is demanding but U.S. is not interested. Nuclear deal has helped India. I believe U.S. will supply a better military hardware than it supplies to Pak. I believe all western governments work like mercenaries. When Iran was serving U.S. interest, U.S. supplied all kinds of military hardware for them. So, I believe U.S. filters out the kind of weapons which it can sell depending on the buyer.
nrshah,nrshah wrote: Do you know we still havent entered into any nuke reactor deal with US... because they want some no liability bill to be passed (under shadow of Union Carbide, perhaps). However, we have entered into such agreement with Russies and French.. Infact a better agreement with Russies - one that allow for continuing support for existing setup even in the event of future reactors put on hold.....
Leave aside OTOH,
What is the change in attitude? Why do PN needs 8 frigate? To fight Talibani navy for free or throw away prices??But for all the generous or anti indian help, TSP would have died a silent death....
Why are we so hell-bend on getting thru that filteration process which is obvious to come and when the same can be avoided???
no sens?shukla wrote:This statement of yours makes absolutely no sense to me my friend..Shatack wrote:ther's not oportunity with MRCA for anyone, even indians themselves, with this budget!
Better to cancel/withdraw from deal ... what are minimum requirements and maximum budget, these have been clear from very start. If it does not suit someone, they should have simply stayed away from it. So if they wish to win, they have to play according to rules. But they still have enough time to withdraw it. No insults given or takenShatack wrote: India is looking for full TOT, 10 billions budget would be only to get fly away version!
to get full tot from either challengers you'll need to put twice!
no insults in this, just maths!
EPE is on offer to India, I said Aim-120D can be fired from the SH, didnt say anything about India getting Aim-120D, will we get it? Probably. Anyways even the Aim-120C-7 shows more promise than the ageing r-77. They have trouble getting one brahmos onto the MKI and your talking about 3 on the mig.Yes, yes, we know - US aircraft will win onlee. anything new to share? Btw, all of the above have been discussed and summarily dealt with before - tell me what the IAF Shornet will have in 2020 that a J-11 or a J-10B can't handle.
EPE engines? Has a shornet even flown with one of those? Aim 120D to India? Since when? In either case, the other offers too have great promise - Russkis will offer MiG-35 with VK-300 engines (these can perform on Vodka alone if required, even with pure H20, but since russkis only drink vodka, H20 is rarely used). and possibly plasma stealth, did I tell you they may also offer airlaunched Granits and Klubs along with latest developed weapons suite for Pakfa. In fact, they may offer a 11 hp MiG-35 with 3 brahmos - all carried on multiple ejector racks on wingtip hp to boot, and ultra long range AAMs (800km OTH, dual seekers, 2000km datalink, satellite uplink GPS/GLonass, with chapati maker if needed) - all to be seen in next Maks! France is more than willing to offer Kaveri and if required M88.3s not to mention a fully stealth Rafale F4, EF-2000 will offer uprated EJ-200s with TVC no less and the distinct possibility of upgrading the LCA into a mini-EF-2000. Even Saab is willing to design a completely stealthy version and offer it to India - they promise it'll be powered by a indigenous swedish volvo engine totally made in India. In fact, it may so happen that ChiPak will offer enhanced version of J-10 or Thundaar with DSI and PL-25 missiles. So there.
The Russkis just finished testing their AESA, the mig wont even begin production till 2013/2014 so lets not talk about what can be done to the mig. God only knows how much the F-4 Rafale which doesnt exist is gonna cost. The r-77M well does it even exist, if it does how come we didnt get it for the MKI or even the KS-172S the suppossed awacs killer, sound more like paper missiles that have just vanished. Atleast the Aim-120D is being inducted fully in 2011. Mig-35 what kind of datalink does it carry? EJ200 with TVC nice offer but is it enough thrust now that LCA mk-2 will be bigger and heavier? How come we have been talking about Snecma partnership on Kaveri but nothing has happened so far. I just said SH has traits of a winner. The f-18G barely is into full production and Boeing is already busy working on future upgrades on EW suites, jammers etc. for the F-18G. Apg-79 is already at V-3. Since 2001, the GE engine went from 92 kn to 98 KN and now nearly 120 KN on offer to us. The upgrade path looks good. The normal Granit weighs 7000kgs. Klub weighs between 1300 and 2300kg, the ones that have an advantage of terminal supersonic phase weigh 2300kg too heavy for the mig-35. Why have Klub on Mig-35 when we can have better Brahmos on MKI? The Norwegian calculations of the Gripen were way off. Their calculations predicted something like that half of all the aircraft were going to crash and I think they took the cost / flight hour from their F-16s. IIRC NL used the Norwegian calculations as a basis for their evaluation.Shatack wrote:as about Gripen Ng, norway and netherland released evaluations, and cost fly/hours is over 10.000$..
Ok, hold it right there! Take a deep breath, take one step back and read up a bit on the Norwegian calculations before you mention it again please.Shatack wrote:as about Gripen Ng, norway and netherland released evaluations, and cost fly/hours is over 10.000$..
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/04/ne ... o-hot.htmlNervous Indian Oil Corp Refuses To "Hot Refuel" Gripen During MMRCA Evaluation Tests
The Gripen team in India is understood to have tried hard to push for the chance to demonstrate the fighter's "hot refuelling" capability, but was unable to do so after Indian Oil Aviation -- the standard supplier of aviation fuel to the Indian Air Force -- refused to be part of such an exercise. Hot refueling is a process by which a fighter is refuelled (in between sorties) while its engines are still on, thereby cutting down refuelling time by half and turn-around time significantly -- a capacity highly desirable in a combat situation, which basically puts aside the need for a pilot to park the aircraft, power down and exit the cockpit for refuelling to begin.
According to sources, the Gripen team was very keen to demonstrate the hot refuelling capability -- even the IAF had no problems witnessing the demonstration even though it wasn't required as part of the tests -- but the offer was shot down by Indian Oil, which said it had never conducted a hot refueling operation before, and wasn't sure it was equipped to take the risk, despite assurances from Saab that it was standard practice with the Gripen. Hot refueling, it must be said, does have its share of risks.
The incident has, however, had its effect. The IAF is now keen to witness a hot refueling demonstration, and will look favourably upon such a capability in its final evaluation of the MMRCA competition. Also, it has requested Indian Oil Aviation to set about getting itself certified for hot refueling ops for the future. IOC will need to look abroad for any sort of certification. Hot refueling trucks and crews in the US, for example, receive special training and certification from an agency in the USAF command structure.
I think we are becoming too much US-Centric and have taken for granted that US will win... well it looks so as of now but we never know what will be the real outcome...?Philip wrote:What strategic benefits? This is what a galaxy of ex-MEA mandarins have been saying,that where are the fruits of the much touted "strategic relationship" wit the US,
)and see what each one of them have to offer... as part of "Strategic" benefit...All you needed to know about 'Hot refueling'Henrik wrote:Nervous Indian Oil Corp Refuses To "Hot Refuel" Gripen During MMRCA Evaluation Tests
Do you have a source for that? AFAIK, no modifications to the airframe are intended, except for what is necessary to integrate the new engine. And given the already strained delivery schedule for the Tejas, the EJ-200 would be the simpler and safer order. Unlike the F414 proposal no major redesign is required.Brahmananda wrote:
EJ200 with TVC nice offer but is it enough thrust now that LCA mk-2 will be bigger and heavier?
dude, ever heard of something called sarcasm ?Brahmananda wrote:
EPE is on offer to India, I said Aim-120D can be fired from the SH, didnt say anything about India getting Aim-120D, will we get it? Probably. Anyways even the Aim-120C-7 shows more promise than the ageing r-77. They have trouble getting one brahmos onto the MKI and your talking about 3 on the mig.
Air launched Granits?
Now what does that j-10 or j-17 blunder on the long run have that our simple LCA cant handle?
aditya.agd wrote:We should be least worried about the US strategic relationships just like US also carries it's relationship with Pakistan. India must decide for it's own.
We should publicly make our discomfort with America known. Indian government may be cosying up with Americans but not Indian people.
CIAO
Carl_T wrote:We see it here being taken for granted that India receives some sort of "geopolitical advantages" with the MRCA. I really doubt it. If countries are suspicious of us, they will use this program to exercise great leverage over our AF. Big mistake. If countries don't have strategic interests in common with India, buying planes from them won't suddenly change the equation.
I think strong strategic partnerships will benefit the MRCA but they will not be the end result of of the program itself.
Great thoughts as usual Kartik..Kartik wrote:Reading that report on the F/A-18 procurement, I started thinking that what happens if the IAF actually does end up buying SHornets as the MRCA. here are some interesting points for what can happen if we choose the SHornet as the MRCA based on the USN's usage of its SHornet fleet.
) with those who send you loving terrorists etc happen !I am just stating MO. why dont you give me some decent answers or wait you have none?? Why dont you or CM educate me on the datalinks the mig carries? or what happened to the AWACS killer or the r-77M? Why dont you give me a decent answer as to why people are so scared of a growing relationship with US? Why do people piss their pants when we even think of buying a US aircraft? We want to be treated like partner of equals but we certainly dont behave like one with so much fear...oooo US this ...oo US that, all that matters here is what does the IAF want. I am always up for the aircraft that meets the technical requirements and i hope IAF goes for their first choice, if its the mig, well so be it. If its the Rafale why not? IMO SH has traits of a winner because its an all-rounder. now it doesnt mean i and IAF have to see eye to eye. If i state some thing some dont like, they hide behind their sarcasm.dude, ever heard of something called sarcasm ?
CM its useless trying to reason with this guy. leave it.
Nobody pisses on the pants here, its just the same between an idealist and a realist. There are a lot of threads here and a huge information in open media of why India has to skeptical about the US and its intentions. No one is a saint and a saint can't lead a nation too.Brahmananda wrote: I am just stating MO. why dont you give me some decent answers or wait you have none?? Why dont you or CM educate me on the datalinks the mig carries? or what happened to the AWACS killer or the r-77M? Why dont you give me a decent answer as to why people are so scared of a growing relationship with US? Why do people piss their pants when we even think of buying a US aircraft?
And what makes you believe that twice the money would guarantee full TOT??Shatack wrote:India is looking for full TOT, 10 billions budget would be only to get fly away version!
to get full tot from either challengers you'll need to put twice!
well novegians, dutch and even swedish are such messy when evaluating fighters, no? that they not buy the plane for their own AF!Ponen wrote:The Norwegian calculations of the Gripen were way off. Their calculations predicted something like that half of all the aircraft were going to crash and I think they took the cost / flight hour from their F-16s. IIRC NL used the Norwegian calculations as a basis for their evaluation.Shatack wrote:as about Gripen Ng, norway and netherland released evaluations, and cost fly/hours is over 10.000$..
The Norwegian calculations were so laughably off that Saab made their own calculations with the Norwegian numbers and got the result that buying and using Gripen would cost the Norwegians more than the F-35s even if they would have acquired the F-35s for free.
Honestly I think SAAB/SwAF has got a pretty good idea of what the cost / fh is as the Gripen fleet has flown like 140,000h
in total. It's not like the difference between $3000/fh(or whatever SAAB/SwAF claims it to be) and $10000/fh is a marginal one.
fly away cost is about 10-12billions, for 126 fighters, equiped? 25 billions, so full tot, we will know this very soon!shukla wrote:And what makes you believe that twice the money would guarantee full TOT??Shatack wrote:India is looking for full TOT, 10 billions budget would be only to get fly away version!
to get full tot from either challengers you'll need to put twice!
Brahmananda,Brahmananda wrote:
EPE is on offer to India, I said Aim-120D can be fired from the SH, didnt say anything about India getting Aim-120D, will we get it? Probably. Anyways even the Aim-120C-7 shows more promise than the ageing r-77. They have trouble getting one brahmos onto the MKI and your talking about 3 on the mig.
Air launched Granits?
Now what does that j-10 or j-17 blunder on the long run have that our simple LCA cant handle?
Mate, its hard to tell if your kidding or trying to make a point.. but either way..its hard to make sense out of it..Shatack wrote:fly away cost is about 10-12billions, for 126 fighters, equiped? 25 billions, so full tot, we will know this very soon!
US fighters and Gripen are already out of the contest! can't imagine India an emerging power waiting congress or foreigns gov as UK on F35 to vote if they got rights to use or upgrade thier package, or to buy US weapons!
final challengers will be russians french or to a lesser europeans, if they put major boost to the dead typhoon cold war relic program!
This project is meant for the C-130Js and M/MRCAs. Perhaps it would be nice to follow this project - it may provide clues as to which AC is selected.The project includes supply, testing, integration and sustenance of the Instrument Landing System (ILS), the Distance Measurement Equipment, the Tactical Air Navigation System, the Air Traffic Management System, and the CAT-2 Airfield Lighting System.
In the next decade, Boeing will bid for $20-billion worth defence projects in India, including the $10 billion Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) contract. The MMRCA deal will give the Indian Air Force 126 fighter aircraft, a much-needed boost to its ageing fleet. Lall came to India eight years ago on a short assignment and had no plans to stay on. But the short stint changed his perception about business opportunities in India. Said he: “We looked at India’s commitment to modernise its forces and saw a wide range of opportunities. Worldwide, India is being recognised as a big market. Everybody wants to be here.”
Same old..same old.. India-US strategic pitch..“India’s growing relationship with the US is giving us an advantage,” said Lall. “When you are signing a deal like MMRCA, it is not just a defence deal, it is strategic deal. It has the potential to bring two countries closer.” At Rs 55,000 crore, the MMRCA deal is the world’s most pricey fighter aircraft deal.
hmmmm... wonder how many of them making tech transfer as a part of their pitch will actually "walk the talk". How many are actually making claims of tech transfer just to win the deal... We'll probably only find out in 10yrs...“While our competitors keep their technologies a closely guarded secret, and do not even share it with their alliance partners, we live cross-border cooperation every day and will extend this spirit of trust and technology sharing to India,” said Dr Matthias Schmidlin, Eurofighter Typhoon’s campaign director in India. He said Eurofighter Typhoon had signed more than 20 MoUs with major Indian defence companies. EADS will also build an engineering centre for defence-related projects in Bangalore. “Our industrial partnership goes way beyond merely meeting the mandatory local assembly of imported parts,” said Schmidlin.
This is exactly what happened to Arjun.Pratyush wrote:CT time guys,
A little bird tells me that the MMRAC competition is just a cover for the framing of GSQR for and Tejas MK 2 and the proposed AMCA/ FGCA.
Why you ask??
Because it allows the Indian Mil Industrial complex a good hard long look at what is relative state of the art in the Combat aviation today. How the same can evolve in the future etc.
Else how do you explain the presence of “Light Grippen ”
CT time off
Back to lurking.