Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2010

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby Brad Goodman » 10 May 2010 22:16

Faisal Shahzad Photo After Arrest

The photo shows Shahzad chained to a bench at John F. Kennedy Airport in Queens after customs agents pulled him from an Emirates airliner that was about to take off for Dubai.


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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby kenop » 10 May 2010 22:25

To give credit: the current CT of FS case being a C is more believable as it relates to Ombaba's interest in N Waziristan. Maybe, these guys are getting better at creating believable CTs.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby Dipanker » 10 May 2010 22:51

Brad Goodman wrote:Faisal Shahzad Photo After Arrest

The photo shows Shahzad chained to a bench at John F. Kennedy Airport in Queens after customs agents pulled him from an Emirates airliner that was about to take off for Dubai.



Here is the Paki chanined to a Bench:

Image

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby NRao » 10 May 2010 23:36

Some Pakistan officials know where Osama is: Hillary Clinton

Clinton appeared to be pointing to Pakistan’s military and intelligence officials while absolving the current civilian leadership.

''I am not saying they are at the highest level...but I believe somewhere in this government are people who know where Osama bin Laden and al-Qaida and where Mullah Omar and the leadership of the Taliban are,'' Clinton said, adding, ''We expect more cooperation (from Pakistan) to help us bring to justice capture or kill those who brought us 9/11.''


Accusing Pakistan of having played a ''double game'' in previous years, Clinton warned ''heaven forbid that at attack like this that we can trace back to Pakistan were to have been successful,'' and threatened, ''...there would be very severe consequences.''

Pelley: What do you mean exactly?

Clinton: I think I will let that speak for itself...

Pelley: Developments to come?

Clinton: Right...
Last edited by NRao on 10 May 2010 23:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby Chinmayanand » 10 May 2010 23:39

Brad Goodman wrote:Check out the pic of the guy caught in karachi airport for shoes with electronics.

Pakistan airport stops passenger with circuits, batteries in shoes

The news says the guy is a civil engineer. Now if this is the type of ppl in engineering colleges then I would urge Sec of State Hillary to please work on plan A B & C


This paki neither looks civil nor engineer. He's a pick up from some terror factory and this whole drama is setup by ISI to bring the victim of terror image to the fore.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby Brad Goodman » 11 May 2010 00:07

I am begining to wonder how much control does Unkil have over pakis and how much control do Pakis have over jihadis looks like there is some level of control but not absolute total control that we assume. In this context Hillary Clinton's statement makes sense since there are parts of military & ISI that are aligned to Unkil and others to jihadis and some to both.

This can also explain why there were to missle test over weekends when the whole world was looking at them

Pakistan tests missiles as U.S. lectures them about terrorism

The success of the test itself and the rhetoric that followed was a grim reminder as to why Western powers cannot simply dictate to Pakistan how they should run their internal security function. It was a frustrating reminder that the U.S. cannot take measures into its own hands and attack the people who masterminded 9/11 and are now feeding – nay, I’d say leading, the insurgency in Afghanistan. The U.S. cannot increase the number of boots-on-the-ground or launch a full-scale invasion of Pakistan’s badlands at will. If Pakistan didn’t have nukes, the U.S. would have taken care of Pakistan’s internal security issues for them- with or without their permission.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby svinayak » 11 May 2010 00:12

Brad Goodman wrote:I am begining to wonder how much control does Unkil have over pakis and how much control do Pakis have over jihadis looks like there is some level of control but not absolute total control that we assume.

Uncle is just pretending to know Pakistan and show that they are in control of the situation. The proximity of NATO troops and US resources is a deterrent for Pakistan.
Pak generals always made sure that they had some degree of options and actions in their policy no matter what the situation. Defiance is the main policy of TSP

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby A_Gupta » 11 May 2010 00:37

from the article brad goodman cited:
The U.S. and the international community should make a deal with Pakistan, one that sort of looks like this: Pakistan will be recognized as a de jure nuclear power once it ceases to be a de facto sanctuary for some of the world’s most dangerous terrorist organizations (or, to put it another way- once hell freezes over).

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby Brad Goodman » 11 May 2010 00:52

The question I have for learned experts on the forum. When it is clear that Faizal was trained by JeM why is Unkil insisting on TTP? Agreed TTP initially took credit but later they themselves said they did not train this guy so why beleive one statement and not other one? Plus all research shows JeM link so is Unkil just using this plot to forward its own goals so is insincere to the actual problem which would mean to tackle JeM

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby Muppalla » 11 May 2010 00:53

Brad Goodman wrote:I am begining to wonder how much control does Unkil have over pakis and how much control do Pakis have over jihadis looks like there is some level of control but not absolute total control that we assume. In this context Hillary Clinton's statement makes sense since there are parts of military & ISI that are aligned to Unkil and others to jihadis and some to both.

This can also explain why there were to missle test over weekends when the whole world was looking at them

Pakistan tests missiles as U.S. lectures them about terrorism

The success of the test itself and the rhetoric that followed was a grim reminder as to why Western powers cannot simply dictate to Pakistan how they should run their internal security function. It was a frustrating reminder that the U.S. cannot take measures into its own hands and attack the people who masterminded 9/11 and are now feeding – nay, I’d say leading, the insurgency in Afghanistan. The U.S. cannot increase the number of boots-on-the-ground or launch a full-scale invasion of Pakistan’s badlands at will. If Pakistan didn’t have nukes, the U.S. would have taken care of Pakistan’s internal security issues for them- with or without their permission.


First tell a lie 108 times and it becomes truth. Now start analysis on this truth and there will be a 108 analysts. There will be several debates and TV shows that will follow and recruit these analysts.

The statement bolded should be taken with a tonnee of salt. I the damn superpower on the planet using the asian poodle of that time proliferated nukes to the TSP so that another 1971 and dismemberment does not happen. By the way I do ensure via analysts that pakistan will always have 10 more nukes than India. Now whenever the stark reality and emberassment of Pakistan's direct involvement in terror against US comes open then the spin machine starts. US not knowing about TSP or not having handle on the things is pure spin. It just does not want to do what is needed there. Period. Everything else is fine yarn as output of super fine spin.

The above article is building a case for helping Pakistan more than what it is now by making is part of P6/p7. This is to ensure Pakistan never breaksup.

Whatever it is guys, USA is willing to makes sacrifices like 911 to save this piece of land in South Asia from breaking down that may be advantageous to India even by a mile.

The current articles after NY failed bombing is just the old wine in new bottle. I will beleive the changes when they bomb out pindi and Lahore. Until them it is just fun show.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby rohitvats » 11 May 2010 01:15

Why the allusion to the historic role of North-West as gate to the Indo-Gangetic Plains and need to secure this flank? Is it possible in this day and age? Do these areas have the same strategic role or is it the case of hang over from earlier times because the wound has not healed? Which Lashkar is going to come from these areas and ravage the plains of India - Pakistan or No Pakistan?

Answers Please. Thanx.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby CRamS » 11 May 2010 01:41

Muppalla wrote:Whatever it is guys, USA is willing to makes sacrifices like 911 to save this piece of land in South Asia from breaking down that may be advantageous to India even by a mile.



What I find puzzling is that this truism so evident to us on BR, has never every been articulated by any Indian foreign policy wonk. And of course, I am discounting "South Asian" India haters, but even nationalists like Brahma Chellaney, Bharat Karnard, Swapan Dasgupta, G. Parthasarthy etc. Even this latter bunch shy away from spreading this complex truth on what US has been up to for past 60 years and continues to follow. Talking positively about India US relations and pretending that US does not follow this policy, or spinning its support to TSP, or being completely dumb, naive, and ignorant of this US policy; all seem to be the hallmark of Indian narratives.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby Johann » 11 May 2010 01:44

Sanjay M wrote:
Suppiah wrote:Is he trying to detonate a bomb kept in the luggage hold (checked-in) remotely thru his shoe? Timers are unreliable because of usual flight delays in this part of world and splitting them may be a good way of getting thru security...

What surprises me is why is he choosing this flight? After all it will be full of barbaric terrorists and hardly any worthwhile target...may be this is a trial run?


Some commentators are saying that it could have been a 'dry run' for a future airplane bombing attack, and that jihadis were just testing the security at Karachi airport this time around.


Suppiah, a couple of things;

- Many US and European contractors, NGO staff, some diplomatic personnel etc fly in and out of Pakistan on commercial flights. Something like Cathay Pacific, or even Thai would be a very tempting target, despite the number of Pakistanis who would also perish in any attack. There have been enough mass casualty attacks, for example on bazaars in Pakistan that I don't seriously think this would dissuade them.

- it is quite possible this was a dry run testing security not only at departures in Karachi, but for transit terminals in Muscat. Best case scenario for terrorist planners he'd show it was possible to board another airline that doesn't serve Pakistan directly, such as Virgin Atlantic.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby A_Gupta » 11 May 2010 02:06

IF TSP can be spun to be a threat to Israel, then Unkil's policy will change in a flash.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby Mahendra » 11 May 2010 02:16

A_Gupta wrote:IF TSP can be spun to be a threat to Israel, then Unkil's policy will change in a flash.


Just in case it was missed
Good News

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/vide ... 907230.cms

Gola is coming back to the land of the pure, he would be well advised to campaign by video conferencing and then run the country by video conferencing. Once elected Gola can work towards clearing the backlog of millions of visa applicants dying to marry their English speaking cousins in Queendom.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby A_Gupta » 11 May 2010 02:22

rohitvats wrote:Why the allusion to the historic role of North-West as gate to the Indo-Gangetic Plains and need to secure this flank? Is it possible in this day and age? Do these areas have the same strategic role or is it the case of hang over from earlier times because the wound has not healed? Which Lashkar is going to come from these areas and ravage the plains of India - Pakistan or No Pakistan?

Answers Please. Thanx.


In today's world the strategic significance of that area is as a land route to give Central Asia access to the booming markets of India and vice versa.

Technology and trade patterns have changed. Trade via sea with Europe is not going away ever and so the importance of Old Silk Route and the economic and military power accruing to whomever controls it has gone away. Nor is there any advantage left in access to better breeds of horses. In that sense the world has permanently changed. At this point in time and for the foreseeable future, there is no economic, military or technological advantage that people who might traverse the Khyber pass have that poses a threat to India.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby putnanja » 11 May 2010 02:29

Mahendra wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:IF TSP can be spun to be a threat to Israel, then Unkil's policy will change in a flash.


Just in case it was missed
Good News

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/vide ... 907230.cms

Gola is coming back to the land of the pure, he would be well advised to campaign by video conferencing and then run the country by video conferencing. Once elected Gola can work towards clearing the backlog of millions of visa applicants dying to marry their English speaking cousins in Queendom.


Will his welcome celebrations be the same as for bibi? If not a lamp post, a sunroof lever should do, I guess :((

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby Brad Goodman » 11 May 2010 02:54

A_Gupta wrote:Technology and trade patterns have changed. Trade via sea with Europe is not going away ever and so the importance of Old Silk Route and the economic and military power accruing to whomever controls it has gone away. Nor is there any advantage left in access to better breeds of horses. In that sense the world has permanently changed. At this point in time and for the foreseeable future, there is no economic, military or technological advantage that people who might traverse the Khyber pass have that poses a threat to India.


Exactly my point too and just to add unless we are going to fight with swords & cross bow we have nothing to fear from Afghans Mongols and Turks. They are least century behind in technology. The new enemies do not need to cross border and have caravans of looted gold going to samarkand these days money is nothing but a number to be seen on computer screen. People want to control the policies of nation not the nation itself. I do not even see an India China conflict in near or medium term future as long as both maintain strategic deterrent.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby munna » 11 May 2010 02:57

rohitvats wrote:Why the allusion to the historic role of North-West as gate to the Indo-Gangetic Plains and need to secure this flank? Is it possible in this day and age? Do these areas have the same strategic role or is it the case of hang over from earlier times because the wound has not healed? Which Lashkar is going to come from these areas and ravage the plains of India - Pakistan or No Pakistan?

Answers Please. Thanx.


Rohit this is something that I have grappled with for some time before I derived certain conclusions. There are following elements to the debate and I would like to highlight them, please bear with me for going easy on references as I am desperately short of time

1) Economic: The North Western region of India is situated on some of the best alluvial plains in the world these plains are a result of the millions of years of silt deposition by antecedent drainage rivers like Indo-Brahm and then its successor systems. The Indus Valley system supported and nurtured a significant chunk of world’s premier economy (India) for over 4000 years. In modern times the region was/is important for three main purposes a) food security b) trade and land route to central Asia c) synergetic linkages of western provinces of current India to other areas now in Pakistan. The national food security was jeopardized as most of our irrigated fertile land was taken away from the nascent republic and we were left at the mercy of PL-480 schemes. To add insult to injury the land on East Punjab was un-irrigated and marshy. In fact India inherited the poorest part of Western India, it is another story that we turned it around. The Indus canal lands could have provided a solid base for Indian economic resurgence after 1947 but we were cut away from them nay hacked with a chainsaw. Imagine this like a laborer having his right hand chopped off and then told to earn his bread. Further to that entire trade and commerce of the land from Ambala to Attock was a system created and gamed by yindoo-banias, sikh trading castes and some pashtuns. In terms of trade and land routes to other countries the problem or rather the issue becomes even more glaring. The traders of India specialized in commodities trade and trade finance in the entire region. All the kingdoms in the regions irrespective of religious bent gave some leeway to Hindu-Sikh traders and tolerated their presence. Kabul, Peshawar, Attock, Quetta and even Makran had thriving Hindu-Sikh communities who were at the vanguard of all things pertaining to commerce, trade, academics and progressive ideas. With one brute hack and systemic violence of 1947 all these communities and people were destroyed. Centuries of accumulated intellectual, physical and cultural capital that may have served as the base of new India was not only destroyed but any chance of rebuilding it was also closed by generation of new political system in NW India and giving it a sovereign status. The argument of synergetic linkages is even more significant, till now I have only mentioned the international trade aspect of the scheme of things. The intra-national trade such as the one between Rajputana states, joint Punjab and Gujarat-Sindh was wiped out in one single swipe. In fact to be brutally honest one marvels at the scheme of the imperial powers that be. They knew that 1947 was the last chance that they could use to knock us out of the park and they came very close to doing it. To those familiar with high funda stats (unlike me of course) you guys must be pals with auto-regression and lag effects, please guess the rest as to what I am trying to get at. Remarkably and as a testament to Indian spirit of resurgence and chutzpah we came back in style every time we were hit after 1947. All in all the initial dismemberment of the country damaged us beyond a limit and thereby stunted us at least for the short and medium term. Without getting some kind of political control of the NW India we cannot aspire for a developed India as there are material constraints placed in our way.

2) Strategic: See Pakistan is not the problem neither is the violence unleashed by their state. India can very well take on them and their uncle and yet emerge winner. The key is that an autonomous NW India (love the term) beyond the pale of New Delhi places material constraints on our security and strategic aspirations. It is not the dagger I fear but the one who wields it I do fear! With an antagonistic state ruled by kleptocratic elite we can hardly feel secure. I for one do not want to over emphasize the importance of one part of India over other but my main thrust is that for better or for worse we have influence in all our neighbors except NW India. I throw this question to all forumites-why has NW India been midwifed, patronized, funded and armed since 1947? One obvious explanation is that everyone else apart from us Indians are fools OR maybe we are missing out on something that the others can see!

NW India is not the problem but our solution to a lot material constraints that serve to perpetuate dominance by certain countries.

You see when a Tiger cub is born it barely looks like a Tiger and looks more like a glorified house cat. The cub itself is unaware of its potential might and firepower. However the astute observers know their cats and cubs and can spot one from a mile. India and its leadership got painted on the radars in 1942 or Quit India Movement. The sole objective of powers that be in 40s was to prevent another cub becoming a Tiger and for that they resorted to wounding the cub, starving the cub and threatened physical elimination of the cub. When all else failed they let lose a snake in the area in fond hope that cub shall die before it attained adulthood. Guess now adulthood beckons the cub and all attempts are on to convince the Tiger to settle for a membership of Hyena club. Soon time will be when my India will change from Ganesha to Narasimha avatar. Elephant is just one form of many forms that India can attain, the Tiger is waiting to emerge. The snake must be brought under control.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby VikramS » 11 May 2010 03:34

Muppalla wrote:
Brad Goodman wrote:
Pakistan tests missiles as U.S. lectures them about terrorism

The success of the test itself and the rhetoric that followed was a grim reminder as to why Western powers cannot simply dictate to Pakistan how they should run their internal security function. It was a frustrating reminder that the U.S. cannot take measures into its own hands and attack the people who masterminded 9/11 and are now feeding – nay, I’d say leading, the insurgency in Afghanistan. The U.S. cannot increase the number of boots-on-the-ground or launch a full-scale invasion of Pakistan’s badlands at will. If Pakistan didn’t have nukes, the U.S. would have taken care of Pakistan’s internal security issues for them- with or without their permission.

First tell a lie 108 times and it becomes truth. Now start analysis on this truth and there will be a 108 analysts. There will be several debates and TV shows that will follow and recruit these analysts.

The statement bolded should be taken with a tonnee of salt. I the damn superpower on the planet using the asian poodle of that time proliferated nukes to the TSP so that another 1971 and dismemberment does not happen. By the way I do ensure via analysts that pakistan will always have 10 more nukes than India. Now whenever the stark reality and emberassment of Pakistan's direct involvement in terror against US comes open then the spin machine starts. US not knowing about TSP or not having handle on the things is pure spin. It just does not want to do what is needed there. Period. Everything else is fine yarn as output ....


Muppalla:

I am not sure whether you read the article. The author states that this missiles are targeted towards India. Any decisive action by the US to take on the TSPA inside Pakistan incurs the risk of the TSPA lobbing a few on to India.

Though this might sound like the US giving out excuses for cultivating the TSP, the chance that any direct decisive action against the TSPA will possibly result in the use of the bum against the SDRE is high enough to be relevant in any decision calculus.

You underestimate the TSPA and overestimate the Khan. TSPA are experts at this game of pushing things to the edge and then getting bailed out. The hyenas know exactly what the Khan wants and what he can and can not do. They helped the Khan bleed the FSU and in return got the wink to build the bum in return.

Of course the TSP bum is coming back to bite everyone including the Khan. The Khan did not anticipate losing control of the TSPA or TSPA losing control of the Jehadis. The Khan of course continues to cultivate the Islamists since they are perhaps the only geo-political leverage it has against the Panda and the Bear.

The stalemate will continue until the Khan realizes the following truisms in increasing order of importance.
1) There are alternatives available to the current TSP which can allow the US to continue to deploy Islamists as a tactical & strategic options.
2) The TSPA does not have enough credibility to cause pain to Uncle if the try to expose skeletons in the Uncle/CIA's cupboard they are privy to. I am sure there are individuals in the US power structure who do not want some of the dirty laundry to be exposed; the laundry might be specific to individuals or the US agencies.
3) The fallout of the break-up of whatever remains of the nation called TSPA can be handled without significant blowback; in fact a balkanised TSP might give the US a lot more leverage to operate.
4) The risk posed by a bum armed TSPA overwhelms any strategic and tactical benefit which comes from cultivating the TSPA in its current form.

However even then, the end-game is going to be tricky. Perhaps letting the TSP roil in its own contradictions has the best long-term risk-reward benefits. Just help them along...

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby Prem » 11 May 2010 03:43

Lullaby for Paki Loolabhai

http://www.thepakistaninewspaper.com/ne ... p?id=16721
White House pleased with Pakistan anti-terror cooperation, stresses good ties
WASHINGTON, May 10 (APP): The White House on Monday reaffirmed close cooperative partnership between the United States and Pakistan, saying it is pleased with the help Islamabad is extending in the ongoing investigation into May 1 Times Square botched car bombing attack.
"We are pleased with the level of cooperation that we've gotten from the Pakistani government. We have a partnership with them. And we have seen them for the first time, in the last year, take on the threat that existed within their country, that they had not addressed in quite some time," White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said.
The spokesman would not go into specifics about the investigation involving suspect Faisal Shahzad, a US citizen of Pakistani descent, but the two countries have good relations."I would characterize our relationship as good. I would characterize the -- one of the things that has happened, over the course of the past year, is a far greater cooperation between the two governments. And pleased with that continued cooperation now," Gibbs stated at the daily briefing.Meanwhile, the Pentagon has reassured Pakistan that the U.S. military is not pressuring the Pakistani army to increase its operations against the Taliban there.Citing an unnamed senior U.S. military official, the CNN reported that the top US military officer Admiral Mullen called to "reassure (Pakistan army chief Gen) Kayani we are not trying to pressure him as a result of this (NY) case." "Mullen didn't call to say, 'You gotta do more because this Pakistani-American was trained on your territory," the official said, speaking in the wake of failed bombing attempt in New York, which is now being linked to Pakistani Taliban militants.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby svinayak » 11 May 2010 03:51

munna wrote: I throw this question to all forumites-why has NW India been midwifed, patronized, funded and armed since 1947? One obvious explanation is that everyone else apart from us Indians are fools OR maybe we are missing out on something that the others can see!

NW India is not the problem but our solution to a lot material constraints that serve to perpetuate dominance by certain countries.

Very good question and may need a long debate on this in a different thread.
One answer is the ethnic factor and loyalty factor going back to 100 years ago. After 1857 they nurtured the Punjabi Muslim class to carry their fight inside Afghanistan. The canals were built during that period and Punjabi elite was created in that period.

The Afghan Soviet agreement was an important event which shaped the events after 1947
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Anglo-Afghan_War

Sensing post-World War I British fatigue, the frailty of British positions along the Afghan border, unrest in British India, and confidence in the consolidation of his power at home, Amanullah, the new ruler of Afghanistan, suddenly attacked the British in May 1919 in two thrusts. Although, Amanullah had written the British viceroy, rejecting British control of his foreign policy and declaring Afghanistan fully independent, the British were taken by surprise. Afghan forces achieved some success in the early days of the war as Pashtun tribesmen from both sides of the border joined forces with them. The military skirmishes soon ended in stalemate as the British recovered from their initial surprise. The war did not last long, however, because both sides were soon ready to sue for peace; the Afghans were unwilling to sustain continued British air attacks on Kabul and Jalalabad, and the British were unwilling to take on an Afghan land war so soon after the bloodletting of World War I. The month long war resulted in about 1000 Afghan dead and 2000 British and colonial deaths. What the Afghans did not gain in battle they gained ultimately at the negotiating table.

The British virtually dictated the terms of the 1919 Rawalpindi Agreement, a temporary armistice agreement that did provide-somewhat ambiguously-for Afghan autonomy in foreign affairs. Before signing the final document with the British, the Afghans concluded a treaty of friendship with the new Bolshevik regime in the Soviet Union; Afghanistan thereby became one of the first nations to recognize the Soviet government, and a "special relationship" evolved between the two governments.


The second round of Anglo-Afghan negotiations (1921) on a final peace were inconclusive. Although both sides were ready to agree on Afghan independence in foreign affairs, as mentioned in the previous agreement, the two nations disagreed on the issue that had plagued Anglo-Afghan relations for decades and would continue to cause friction for many more, that is, authority over the Pashtun tribes on both sides of the Durand Line. The British refused to agree to Afghan control over tribes on the British side of the line, while the Afghans insisted on it. The Afghans regarded the 1921 agreement as an informal one.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby Karna_A » 11 May 2010 04:21

VikramS wrote:
I am not sure whether you read the article. The author states that this missiles are targeted towards India. Any decisive action by the US to take on the TSPA inside Pakistan incurs the risk of the TSPA lobbing a few on to India.

Though this might sound like the US giving out excuses for cultivating the TSP, the chance that any direct decisive action against the TSPA will possibly result in the use of the bum against the SDRE is high enough to be relevant in any decision calculus.

You underestimate the TSPA and overestimate the Khan. TSPA are experts at this game of pushing things to the edge and then getting bailed out.

However even then, the end-game is going to be tricky. Perhaps letting the TSP roil in its own contradictions has the best long-term risk-reward benefits. Just help them along...


VikramS,
yes, it catches the crux of the problem.
What is your opinion if India has a declared or undeclared policy that in case of unprovoked Bums on India, India takes down KSA. A policy like that may not be politically possible, but who knows what leadership will come once Bums come Indian way. It may be shiv sena on steroids. Will TSP be foolish enough to take down it's spiritual center KSA along with it?
After all even in TSPeak, they have nothing to offer the world except piglets and no one is going to miss them in this world.
Also how is end game of NOKO different than TSP.
Looks like India and SOKO are the only 2 countries facing mad nooks.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby Sanjay M » 11 May 2010 05:12

Chinmayanand wrote:
Brad Goodman wrote:Check out the pic of the guy caught in karachi airport for shoes with electronics.

Pakistan airport stops passenger with circuits, batteries in shoes

The news says the guy is a civil engineer. Now if this is the type of ppl in engineering colleges then I would urge Sec of State Hillary to please work on plan A B & C


This paki neither looks civil nor engineer. He's a pick up from some terror factory and this whole drama is setup by ISI to bring the victim of terror image to the fore.


They're saying it may be a mistake, and that his shoes may just be "electronic massage shoes" (personally, I've never heard of such a thing, but it sounds plausible):

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162- ... 03543.html

Well, I think that all the jihadis should be buying up these shoes now, if they do indeed have wires in them. Should be a great way to bomb anything under the sun. I take it that Saudi rectal bomber isn't spawning many imitators.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby SSridhar » 11 May 2010 06:07

AnimeshP wrote:Militants in no mood to talk

"For us Colonel Imam was not a mujahid. If he was assumed in the past as the father of the Taliban, he did that as a government employee - being an army officer. He still receives a pension from the Pakistan army. To us he is their man," said Usman Punjabi.

This is jihad, pure and simple. The PA knows what has been coming. It wants desperately to retain control of the remaining assets such as LeT and possibly some individual leaders in other tanzeems. Otherwise, it has lost everything for now. If Sultan Tarar (Col. Imam) is killed by the Punjabi Taliban, it would confirm this. What a change of fortune !

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby Gerard » 11 May 2010 06:08

Islam's Nowhere Men
In its beginnings, the Pakistan of Faisal Shahzad's parents was animated by the modern ideals of its founder, Muhammad Ali Jinnah. In that vision, Pakistan was to be a state for the Muslims of the subcontinent, but not an Islamic state in the way it ordered its political and cultural life. The bureaucratic and military elites who dominated the state, and defined its culture, were a worldly breed. The British Raj had been their formative culture.

But the world of Pakistan was recast in the 1980s under a zealous and stern military leader, Zia ul-Haq. Zia offered Pakistan Islamization and despotism. He had ridden the jihad in Afghanistan next door to supreme power; he brought the mullahs into the political world, and they, in turn, brought the militants with them.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby JwalaMukhi » 11 May 2010 06:09

VikramS wrote:I am not sure whether you read the article. The author states that this missiles are targeted towards India. Any decisive action by the US to take on the TSPA inside Pakistan incurs the risk of the TSPA lobbing a few on to India.

Though this might sound like the US giving out excuses for cultivating the TSP, the chance that any direct decisive action against the TSPA will possibly result in the use of the bum against the SDRE is high enough to be relevant in any decision calculus.

Well, if the bolded part in the above quote is true, then the action by US is made simple and straight forward.
Yes, if TSPA actually lobs a few(all ?) in India, it will solve one humongous problem. Because, it will defang them (if not already) and that happens within south-asia. If anything, it will be one time use in its (bakistan's) existence. US isn't and shouldn't be worried about paki nukes getting onto India. It is mostly afraid of some yahoo garnering that technology in dirtier form and trying it on US.
The excuse of TSPA lobbing a few, if it can be guaranteed and certain, would start looking like a great opportunity to drain the TSPA of nukes in a safer place far far away, reducing the possibility of that getting anywhere else.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby JwalaMukhi » 11 May 2010 06:28

It is one thing and understandable when TSPA threatens and blackmails India using Chinese supplied "new clear bums". It will be laughable when others such as China, US start giving excuses and conducting blackmails using TSPA's "new clear bums". It was a conscious decision to allow TSPA that capability, without which, TSPA had no chance to be of any use to the handlers. The mad dog is now on suicidal mode and apparently not on leash.
The use of TSPA, nay the existence of TSP itself which is on suicidal mode, is giving nightmares to US.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby amit » 11 May 2010 06:29

Brad Goodman wrote:Look at the NY Times article especially the picture it tells a story that the article has completely missed. Porkies have deluded themselves to the point of no return about Chaliphite and mythical islamic renissance. I dont think this problem of terror mindset can be solved as long as they carry this racial theory of islamic superiority similar to arian race theory of nazis.

Faisal Shahzad's Taliban link gives President Obama an excuse to unleash fury on Pakistan evildoers



Brad,

I hope the US audience of NYT would have the brains and eyes to notice that none of the Pious folks in that picture look like the unwashed Madrassa educated types. Each one of them could have been a FS substitute in Times Square.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby Guddu » 11 May 2010 06:39

Some more info on FS, via Strat
"Shahzad’s childhood in Pakistan afforded him both cultural and filial connections in the country. There are even reports that a childhood friend was behind the 2008 attacks in Mumbai. Childhood has little bearing on adult operational capability, though it did make it easier for Shahzad to travel outside Peshawar, where he once lived, and make contacts with innumerable individuals — some invariably with some degree of connection to the shadowy, amorphous world of the Pakistani Taliban and their local and transnational allies."

"So whoever he did talk to in Pakistan — and the list of potentials is virtually endless for someone who grew up in the area — reveals almost nothing. More information may become available about whom he spoke with and what was discussed but there is no meaningful context for these conversations. Basic tradecraft and Shahzad’s Times Square device that make it clear that at most, the Pakistani Taliban sent a low-level representative to speak with him. It is unclear who provided the training, but it is reasonable to assume that he underwent basic guerilla training courses, but not advanced bomb-making courses. (Zazi received the bomb-making training but still failed in his attempt to attack New York’s subways because training without experience is insufficient.) However, the May 3 video of Pakistani Taliban leader Hakeemullah Mehsud claiming he had not been killed in a 2009 U.S. UAV strike probably gave the group an almost irresistible opportunity to claim credit for the May 1 attempted attack in the United States — even if it was an inept one — in order to bolster the larger movement’s standing (although the Pakistani Taliban is so fractious and diffuse, it can hardly be said that the claim was from “the group”)."

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby Suppiah » 11 May 2010 06:53

Guys have you stopped to wonder one thing - an attack that did not even spoil the seat covers of a car, that too happening in the regime of the most liberal wimpish of all US regimes, has triggered all this sound and fury. Contrast that with our regimes.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby Sanjay M » 11 May 2010 07:09

that's because our wimp scale is much wimpier than their wimp scale

so wimpy by American standards is pretty macho by Indian standards

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby Gerard » 11 May 2010 07:12

And all the Yankee sound and fury has no more bite than a "befitting reply" promised by an Indian neta

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby Hari Seldon » 11 May 2010 07:26

Gerard wrote:And all the Yankee sound and fury has no more bite than a "befitting reply" promised by an Indian neta


I almost agreed but then realized the yanquis have expanded drone strikes throughout FARTA and now have blanket authorized firings w/o requiring wannabe-martyr's positive identification.

Someday, Dilli will have to fly UCAVs over pakjabi ruins (resembling the 80s Beirut) to keep taking out tanzeem rumps only. Till then, I'd be wary of saying we have zero bite just like unkil.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby A_Gupta » 11 May 2010 07:32

The Khan strategy is - we will fly the national bird, and then we will pay you not to hate us. Almost as schizophrenic as the Pakistani strategy, which is we will blow you up, and then come with our begging bowl.

On the other hand, thinking about it, it is a match made in heaven.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby Gerard » 11 May 2010 07:43

They could have a thousand drones, each taking out a #3, his replacement a minute later, his replacement 2 minutes later and so on. The Yankee drones are yet to have any effect on Paki behavior. Jihad is still state policy. They still operate the terror camps. None of the fauji will be targeted.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby Suppiah » 11 May 2010 07:58

The biggest advantage unkil has is that TSP lacks missiles that can hit unkil. But even then they have chosen to go down the wimpish path instead of unleashing all their missiles on TSP to reduce it to wasteland. Even without nukes, they can do what they did to the Iraq "republican guard(?)" i.e., wipe them out starting with HQ building. Do that for TSPA/ISI and problem is solved.

For India the one and only way to keep our mainland safe and yet achieve the objective is to have a total surprise blanket nuke attack on TSP that vaporises it in a stroke. We cannot be flying UAVs and have some crazy general launch a nuke on an Indian city...at our distances, missile defense does not work.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby Hari Seldon » 11 May 2010 08:01

Quite obviously, Bakis are in the business of selling 'protection'.

Protection from their own IT exports. A lot of FODP cash is essentially protection money.

Sadly, TSP doesn't accept protection money payment in INR from Dilli since it can print up any number of (fake but true) INR banknotes in a jiffy. Only.

/sarc off.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby ArmenT » 11 May 2010 08:02

Chinmayanand wrote:This paki neither looks civil nor engineer. He's a pick up from some terror factory and this whole drama is setup by ISI to bring the victim of terror image to the fore.

The article in the link says he's a building contractor, but the photo says civil engineer :-? . Gotta watch out for these building contractor types... Dawood Ibrahim was one, so was Bin Laden.

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Re: Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2

Postby Prem » 11 May 2010 08:27

Another BC crawls out of family bed and forgot that the name of Indian state is Jammu and Kashmir .
http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=238564
Water and Kashmir


Water in Eastern culture is seen as sacred and this culture treats its provision as a duty for the preservation of life. In contrast, the West and its associates conform to a culture where water is seen as a commodity and its ownership and trade as a fundamental corporate right. Water in our culture is given from earthen water pots as a free gift to the thirsty. Hindus have Jal Mandirs (water temples), part of an ancient tradition of setting up free water stands in public areas. This is a common practice among Muslims as well.

Obviously a culture treating water as a commodity has to clash with cultures of sharing, receiving and giving water. Therefore, water wars are cultural wars and global wars. An economic fascism is out to destroy people's right to their water resources. It is much more important when disputed and trust territories among other resources have water brutally ravaged. The water resources in the state of Jammu and Kashmir are being exploited at Mangla, Baglihar and Diamir by all the three administrations on the two sides of the LoC. On Aug 21, 1957, the government of India complained to the United Nations that Pakistan was about to build Mangla Dam in the disputed territory under Pakistani control. The Indian complaint added that "the execution of the Mangla Dam Project by the government of Pakistan was a further instance of Pakistan's consolidating its authority over the Indian territory of Jammu and Kashmir and of the exploitation of the territory to the disadvantage of the people of the state and for the benefit of the people of Pakistan." The complaint added that Pakistan's action was in violation of the Security Council's Resolution of Jan 17, 1948, and of the assurances given to India by the chairman of the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan (UNCIP).Less than three years later, India reversed its earlier position and entered into a water treaty, on the waters of Kashmir, with Pakistan in April 1960. The Indus Water Treaty was brokered by the World Bank. By concluding the Indus Water Treaty with India, Pakistan in practice accepted the sovereignty of India over Kashmir's water resource. The use of water in the Indus Water Treaty has not been aligned on a principled, fair and just basis. It does not recognise the interests of the affected people (Kashmir) and has failed to develop a mechanism to include those interests in water allocation decision.

Under the Treaty the government of India on its part has breached the trust embedded in the instrument of accession (a disputed bilateral agreement). Under the Indus Water Treaty the government of India reversed its stated position on Kashmir. India cannot trade a natural resource of Kashmir with Pakistan, or vice versa. Pakistan's trust obligations too restrain it from violating any resource in its trust jurisdiction.
The water dispute at Mangla, Baglihar and Diamir has made keener the Kashmiri people's interest in their natural resource. They feel being driven to economic insecurity, cultural subordination and ecological dispossession. Water exploitation is fast spreading as a virus of hate. Kashmiris are not averse to the welfare of the people of Pakistan or the people of India. Our stand on the Mangla, Baglihar and Diamir disputes is based on the jurisprudence of the habitat and the water resources embedded in it. We will have to argue for a corresponding and reciprocal benefit of compensation due to the people of Kashmir. India and Pakistan should embrace and honour the welfare of the Kashmiri people, which includes the use or preservation of water as a natural resource.
Kashmiri interest is incremented and guaranteed by our bilateral agreement with the government of India and Pakistan's "assumed responsibilities in Azad Kashmir" and its responsibilities under the Karachi Agreement on Gilgit and Baltistan.


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