Artillery Discussion Thread

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 22 Apr 2010 01:12

^^^^

He asked Egypt only to set up a coastal defence system but the terse two-page letter he gave Abraham wanted India in effect to replace Britain as the protecting power. Shastri should send a ‘message of support’ and, since the Anglo-Malayan defence agreement would antagonize ‘some Communist and pro-Communist cotmtries in Afro-Asia’, India should build up Singapore’s military.

"Our armed forces constitute only two infantry battalions. Even these two battalions are short of trained officers and we are ‘An Absolute Pariah in the Whole World’ We cannot afford to build up forces sufficient to protect ourselves from aggression by our neighbours but in spite of financial commitments we have given an undertaking to the Malaysian government to raise five battalions, that is three more than the present two as soon as practicable’

He ruled out help from Malaysia ostensibly because its ‘resources were already stretched to the utmost’ though facilities were available at the Officer Training College in Port Dickson. lnducting British officers would encourage people to ‘attack’ Singapore ‘as neo-colonialist’. Shastri should therefore ‘send a team as soon as is convenient’ to help raise the additional battalions; meanwhile, atleast
one Indian officer ‘specially experienced in raising new units’ should take over at once as military adviser to the new defence ministry under Dr Goh. He could be incognito, ‘But he must be one who will know how quietly and not blatantly to inculcate attitudes of democracy and non-Communism, that is, resistance and rejection of Communist doctrines’

It still rankles with Lee that Shastri did not even acknowledge the letter. The Indian prime minister did write to Lee (Abraham incorporated his few bland lines of goodwill in his own letter on 11 August) but this was in response to the message flashed during the night of 8 August and made no mention of Lee’s letter or his specific requests. Shastri merely noted ‘with satisfaction’ that separation was the ‘result of an agreement’ with Malaysia, and sent his ‘sincere good wishes for the happiness and prosperity of the people of Singapore’. India, he added, looked ‘forward to the development of close and friendly relations and mutual cooperation in many fields’ with Singapore.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Apr 2010 02:17

if you look back in history August 1965 was when the first waves of Operation Gibraltar were launched in Kashmir by the TSP under Ayub Khan. PM Shastri was hard pressed to take care of that and eventually Operation Grand Slam. In October 1965, the coup against Sukarno in Indonesia was launched.

So its understandable Shastriji's silence

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 22 Apr 2010 02:36

ramana wrote:if you look back in history August 1965 was when the first waves of Operation Gibraltar were launched in Kashmir by the TSP under Ayub Khan. PM Shastri was hard pressed to take care of that and eventually Operation Grand Slam. In October 1965, the coup against Sukarno in Indonesia was launched.

So its understandable Shastriji's silence

From hindsight it looks like somebody figured out that lot of asian countries are asking for help from India for defence.
What is the best way to lower the strength of India and make it a weak power in the eyes of other asian countries?

One of the result of the 1965 war was the solidarity of the muslim countries behind Pakistan as a Islamic block. It "won" the war and became a "strongest" Muslim asian nation.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 22 Apr 2010 03:07

Acharya wrote:
It "won" the war and became a "strongest" Muslim asian nation.

Sorry I didn't understand! Are you saying Pokis won the 65' war?

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 22 Apr 2010 03:51

Manish_Sharma wrote:Sorry I didn't understand! Are you saying Pokis won the 65' war?

Pakistan had a "Hezbollah victory" in 65 - The rule of the game is that even if the entire pious army gets decimated, if one pious surviving guy with both arms, one leg, one eye gone shouts AoA!! It means that the pure have won and the kafirs have lost.

Many people have had Hezbollah victories. Pakistan in 65, Kargil and Parakram. Pakistan also had a Hezbollah victory in the Baglihar dam dispute, where the arbitrator ruled in favor of India but conceded a minor point to the Pakistanis about some arcane technical issue which India offered in the first place -- essentially means that the one legged, one eyed Pakistani delegation could should AoA!! and claim victory. Afghans won a Hezbollah victory against USSR and ofcourse Hezbollah against Israel recently (after which I was inspired to name this rule as the "Hezbollah victory rule").

It essentially means that there is a tiny string by which H&D is still hanging. Reminds me of what ramanaji posted about the importance of H&D in tribal societies: one way of denying a Hezbollah victory is to dent the H&D in a conspicuous, telling and transparent manner. Rounding up 93,000 people, taking a picture of the signing ceremony and commemorating that day like in '71 is one way.

The flip side of it is the "Argumentative SDRE" defeat. Which means much introspection, hand wringing, debate and blame game to essentially cast a victory as a defeat. Like the SDREs in Kargil -- it was a HUGE intelligence failure, lots of soldiers died, India got a nose bloodied, cashmere was internationalized, coffin scam, krasnopol didnt work, INSAS magazines cracked etc etc and so the SDREs lost. The fact that NLI got wiped out (and had to be mollified by incorporating this into PA), Pakistan got a dictator for 8 years directly & a huge purge of the Jernails because of this, BB probably got killed because of threatening to investigate it & Nawaz had to soil his shalwar and rush to Unkil does not count.

We came dangerously to a "Argumentative SDRE" defeat in '71 too - because Sam Bahadur did not mobilize fast.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 23 Apr 2010 04:40

Anujan wrote:
Pakistan had a "Hezbollah victory" in 65 - The rule of the game is that even if the entire pious army gets decimated, if one pious surviving guy with both arms, one leg, one eye gone shouts AoA!! It means that the pure have won and the kafirs have lost.

Thanks Anujan! Very insightful and fresh "Hezbollah victory".

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 04 May 2010 14:34

Mahindra and BAE Systems JV declared operational

As well as expanding the existing vehicle business and increasing its capabilities, Defence Land Systems India will play an important role in the BAE Systems bids for a number of artillery programmes, such as FH77 B05 for the towed 155mm 52cal howitzer requirement. It is intended that the company will become a national centre of excellence for design, development, manufacture, final assembly, integration and test of artillery systems in support of the Indian Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan and upgrade programme for artillery.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 04 May 2010 14:52

It is intended that the company will become a national centre of excellence for design, development, manufacture, final assembly, integration and test of artillery systems in support of the Indian Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan and upgrade programme for artillery.

I hope it remains that way... rather than becoming a mere low cost manufacturing unit... With all these joint ventures with the world leaders in the respective area, i have distinct fear of we being left out as unit for final assembly only and that too for the requirements of Indian armed forces only...take example of Bramhos, we still dont have technology for its engine...However, Plans for hypersonic bramhos is good as we will be involved in the engine tec as well..

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 04 May 2010 19:38

chackojoseph wrote:Mahindra and BAE Systems JV declared operational

As well as expanding the existing vehicle business and increasing its capabilities, Defence Land Systems India will play an important role in the BAE Systems bids for a number of artillery programmes, such as FH77 B05 for the towed 155mm 52cal howitzer requirement. It is intended that the company will become a national centre of excellence for design, development, manufacture, final assembly, integration and test of artillery systems in support of the Indian Army’s Field Artillery Rationalisation Plan and upgrade programme for artillery.

great news, lets hope that they fulfill the mandate.

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 10 May 2010 22:17

It seems as though the A-100 smerch copy is now in tsp's arsenal.....some message boards have stories of 14 regiments of these each with 20 launchers....how far is this true ? Is this an exaggeration ?

Whatever it is, why are we satisfied with puny numbers of pinaka/smerch. Only 62 smerch launchers is very small.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 May 2010 00:08

ramdas wrote:It seems as though the A-100 smerch copy is now in tsp's arsenal.....some message boards have stories of 14 regiments of these each with 20 launchers....how far is this true ? Is this an exaggeration ?

Whatever it is, why are we satisfied with puny numbers of pinaka/smerch. Only 62 smerch launchers is very small.

Let them first get 14 number of launchers....14 Regiments, yeah sure.

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 11 May 2010 00:19

Prasun Sengupta talks of a deal signed in 2008 end by TSP for 36 launchers. He says it is an initial deal. Some were revealed in the recent TSP exercises. So 36 launchers seems to be what they will get - about 2 regiments.

Regarding Pinaka, have further orders been placed beyond the initial 2 regiments ? DRDO was hoping for an eventual order of 12 regiments.

Shiv Aroor's blog quotes our DG Artillery saying that upg. of 130mm to 155mm has been completed. How many guns is that ? 180 ? Or 550 ?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 May 2010 01:01

^^^Take what Prasun Chorgupta writes with bucket load of salt. With the perpetual bhikhari status of PA, they will need Chinese to finance the deal. Did they even demonstrate a battery worth of firing by these systems during the excercise? Or even some ISPR snaps?

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 11 May 2010 01:15

yes, ISPR snaps of one A-100 AFAIK....finance will always come from unkil/panda...

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 12 May 2010 07:56

CII Artillery Seminar: "Less than 1% of Indian ammunition is precision guided"

.....................

Pointing to this background on May 10 at CII's 3rd International Seminar on Artillery Technology, Brig (Retd) Gurmeet Kanwal, Director, Centre for Land Warfare Studies pointed out that the U.S. has since invested in precision guided munitions (PGMs) and so they today represent 80% of munitions used in war. Defense update states that in Operation Iraqi Freedom which started in 2003 "Around 66% of US munitions and up to 85% of RAF munitions used during OIF were precision guided, either by Global Positioning Systems (GPS) or by laser or both. This demonstrates a huge leap forward in capability since the 1991 conflict, when the proportion of precision guided munitions was around 30% of US and 18% of RAF weapons were guided." In an earlier presentation, General V.K. Singh, Chief of the Army Staff, PVSM, AVSM, YSM, ADC said that "Gone are the days when during an artillery attack, the safest place to be was at the target."

Given the increasing importance of artillery Brig. Kanwal said that it is shocking to note that less than 1% of India's munition stockpile is precision guided. He said that despite India's decisive victory in Kargil 1999 being attributed, in part, to Indian artillery superiority with the Bofors guns, the Indian Army has failed to modernise its artillery regiments. While hinting at the DPP 2008 as being part of the blame, people 8ak spoke to said that it is also the fault of the Indian army. If it was purely a Ministry of Defence (MoD) and procurement process issue, why is it that the Navy is constantly rolling out new ships with the latest technologies when it has to operate under the same conditions?

Brig. Kanwal stated that picking up the slack in artillery modernisation is urgent because according to him there is an 80-90% probability that India's next war will be in the mountains and a 60-70% probability that it will remain restricted to the mountains. Explaining this he said that deep strikes in to India's neighbouring territories would risk flying over (secret) nuclear installations which would initiate a retaliation that would escalate the war to a level undesirable to either country.

Totalling US$8 billion, India has possibly the largest military modernisation program in the world.............

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 May 2010 09:29

ramdas wrote:yes, ISPR snaps of one A-100 AFAIK....finance will always come from unkil/panda...

That is what I was refering to...how come they did not even show battery worth of them in case they have 36 units? This from a country which never hesitates from any H&D enhancing exercise?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 May 2010 09:52

the A100/Smerch sized stuff appears a bit unwieldy for moving around with armour divs x-country . methinks they will be used for
attacking building of enemy armour/logistics from a defensive posture where they dont have to move around much, instead
shuttle between a network of prepared and protected sites. those huge rockets also need big reload vehicles and supply chain
to storage sites.

for India, Pinaka and upg-Grad fits the bill nicely for a strike corp/IBG type thing; while "corps artillery" and "indep artillery division(s)" tasked with
deeper and more strategic attacks could use Smerch?

imo we should org our indep artillery formations with a mix of Smerch, Prithvi, Shourya, Nirbhay with shourya & nirbhay get to IOC and retire prithvi in
batches then.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 12 May 2010 09:59

Viv S wrote: Thanks for the article, but I'm still in the dark. Does the IA have DU rounds in its inventory?

No.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 12 May 2010 10:05

asprinzl wrote:Singapore seperated from Malaysia in 1965 and became a new nation. To train their military and to arm them they first approached India. India too had a small arms industry and due to British heritage which is similar to what the Singaporeans inherited, they wanted Indian expertise in training their soldiers and Indian technicians to help setting up small arms fabricating workshops. Unfoftunately, India turned down the singaporean request.

Indian refused because of the Chinese. Chinese were moving on to Bhutan for the training and defence agreement etc. It was decided India will keep to itself and China will not meddle in S Asia.

I know this because the person who was selected to head to Singapore told me so.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 12 May 2010 10:08

Singha wrote:
<SNIP>

for India, Pinaka and upg-Grad fits the bill nicely for a strike corp/IBG type thing; while "corps artillery" and "indep artillery division(s)" tasked with deeper and more strategic attacks could use Smerch?

imo we should org our indep artillery formations with a mix of Smerch, Prithvi, Shourya, Nirbhay with shourya & nirbhay get to IOC and retire prithvi in batches then.

Corps Artillery has nothing Strategic about it...another Artilley Brigade to be deployed as and when required. However, given the scarce nature of assets like GRAD-21 and Smerch or Pinaka, the same will be centralized in Corps Artillery Brigades - to be deployed on required axises.

From what little I understand about Artillery Divisions - they are more or less on the same line as you've put. Amalgamation of brigades with 105/130/155mm+Rocket Artillery Regiments. To be deployed to re-inforce a sector in defence or offense. The new ACCCS will be a great asset in allowing for quick integration of assets with forward formations. If you remember, the pics of new Pinaka which appeared on Livefist had the Artillery Division badge on them. As for Brahmos/Nirbhay, I'm a bit confused. These are "Strategic Assests" and may be held in Independent Missile Groups reporting directly to AHQ. Or regiments of one of the Brigades in Artillery Division manage these assets. Allows for easier C3.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 May 2010 10:17

One thing I don't get is why wasn't the Krasnopol made in OFB for use in the plains? As I mentioned a few pages ago the issue of inaccuracy is in high altitude regions where the thin air develops high lift in the supersonic regime. This shouldn't be problem in the plains. Besides once the sensors are made they can be adapted for use on other ordnance.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 May 2010 14:29

With the availability of HP GLONASS signal we can develop a cheaper 155 mm smart round of "Excalibur " type with a typical CEP of < 5 m with probably nothing more than a small UAV on air to provide target info.

Krasnopol typically needs some one to constantly lase the target which may be less than ideal solution in some scenarios.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 12 May 2010 16:38

Yes a desi version of excalibur should be developed , but that would require manufacturing shells of such high quality .
Though we need a desi version of gps (24) as well,but for the time being ,purchasing a few thousand of them will be good . Inertial guidance could also work ?
It can actually make a diwali on LoC,when we do precision strikes without crossing the fence .
It is interesting that pakis may get excaliber in baksheesh,they already have copperhead,

Russia developed its own version of Copperhead, Krasnopol, and sold some to India. During a 1999 war with Pakistan, high in the Himalayan mountains, Krasnopol proved very useful in taking out enemy bunkers, without causing avalanches or destroying the few pathways up the steep hills. The Indians paid about $40,000 for each Krasnopol shell (two thirds what the Copperhead was supposed to cost), and found it a good investment. This encouraged the American developers of the next generation smart shell, Excalibur, which already had several years of design and research invested.

sachin_b_k · Post by **sachin_b_k** » 12 May 2010 17:18

The article "India too late in artillery modernisation" referenced in one of the replies to this forum sums up the pretty sorry state of the Indian artillery. What is interesting to note is that this present condition is due to the "P"olitical selfish game played by Mr V "P" Singh. Otherwise India would have went on to add a few hundred Bofors as repeat order and our artillery would have been pretty much OK. The interesting part is that we have a new Army chief with an artillery background who wants to "K"orrect the situation and his name happens to be Mr V "K" Singh!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 May 2010 00:52

sachin_b_k wrote:The article "India too late in artillery modernisation" referenced in one of the replies to this forum sums up the pretty sorry state of the Indian artillery. What is interesting to note is that this present condition is due to the "P"olitical selfish game played by Mr V "P" Singh. Otherwise India would have went on to add a few hundred Bofors as repeat order and our artillery would have been pretty much OK. The interesting part is that we have a new Army chief with an artillery background who wants to "K"orrect the situation and his name happens to be Mr V "K" Singh!

Last I checked, 2 Rajput was part of an Infantry Regiment. When did the Rajputs get the fetish of calling themselves Gunners? Bl@#*% PR guys.....they had me fooled

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 14 May 2010 03:29

Artillery Gun Trials from month-end

sum · Post by **sum** » 14 May 2010 08:53

Juggi G wrote:Artillery Gun Trials from month-end

The number of times this headline has appeared in the papers(since the 90s) must have exceeded even my post count on BR!!!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 May 2010 08:58

need to lease a C-17 to fly in the tea and britannia marie biskoots too.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 14 May 2010 09:01

Do we have a will to defend the country? Defence acquisitions in India are a joke - a cruel joke which may one cost us our freedom!

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 20 Jul 2010 17:45

as I have said before unless an army chief goes public and resigns in disgust nothing will change in the arty front.

obviously the gunner chief did not care enough.

or maybe they think they have it covered some other way (doubtful)

vina · Post by **vina** » 20 Jul 2010 17:47

Any reasons why DRDO never ventured into Howitzers?

Oh. I am glad they don't . If the experience with the armor guys with the Arjun wasn't enough and armor is one of the more "modern" arms of the IA. The artillery guys are more hidebound and will be even tougher to work with.

negi · Post by **negi** » 20 Jul 2010 17:50

Can we file an RTI petition for this farce ? Specifically seeking information with regards to the following :

1. How many trials are needed vs how many already done ?
2. Time and Money spent on this tamasha.
3. Estimated time to seal this deal ?

Finally is there a provision in our hajaar page constitution to take Gobmint to court for this tamasha ?

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 20 Jul 2010 19:27

Any reasons why DRDO never ventured into Howitzers?

Thanks God for small mercies! Else Kargil would be a Pakistani District while we went around blaming burst barrels and autofrettage.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 20 Jul 2010 19:37

Avik - Get your figures and facts correct....

Ever heard of pinaka... It was used with great success during the Kargil war 1999...

And just for you info, it was developed by DRDO...

And u see... Kargil continues to be Indian Territory...

Mods - Apologies if felt rude, please feel free to delete in that case.

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 20 Jul 2010 20:06

nrshahji,
Thank you for showing me the true path and err..the true 'facts'.

There are such things called 155 mm, 130 mm howitzers. There are also such things called BM 21's. Pls compare the volume and effectiveness of fire provided by them vis-a-vis IMG/IFGs and Pinaka.Maybe , we can have a discussion then.

While you are at it, pls find out why there was a delay in launching the assault on Batalik and Drass.

About being rude, no worries, the less facts we know, generally the more bluster we are!

All for Indian made, but lets be realistic....

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Jul 2010 20:15

nukavarapu wrote:<SNIP>Any jingoe can explain whats the complexity involved. For the time being lets discuss about self-propelled/armored howitzers. I feel they would be lesser complex compared to 155mm towed and 155mm ultra-light.

errr Sirji, the Tracked or Wheeled Howitzer is nothing but the same 155mm gun mated to a chassis.....so if you can solve the howitzer problem....rest is comparatively a cakewalk. The key is the gun.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 20 Jul 2010 21:17

I cannot comment on the technical challenge bit involved in developing a howitzer.

But which weight are you referring to? The gun comes first and then the SP Arty platform. So, weight in this case is not an issue. The gun on Arjun is bound to be lesser in weight as compared to a howitzer gun (minus the rest of zing-bang for towed gun).

In case you're referring to the ULWH (M-777) being purchased from USA, those were developed especially for expeditionary forces. The earlier howtizer used by US Army and Marines was found to heavy and not suitable for light, expeditionary forces. The challenge there was weight and managing the recoil - iirc, that gun has titanium used in construction. And btw, it is 155/39 Caliber weapon - the planned purchase is for 155/52 Caliber weapon - for both the SP and towed version.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 20 Jul 2010 21:24

arey bhai.. agar sub kuch india mein hi bana loge to neta ki roti maari jayegi...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jul 2010 01:19

The challenges are the barrel and the recoil system aka the train. The barrel issue is wear and tear. Recoil system again has to transfer the force to the ground and thus has to be heavy to absorb and transfer the force. Titanium etc is exptic solution and adds to the cost.

OFB did make a 155mm but it was too heavy. I dont know what effort was put to reduce its weight.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 Jul 2010 02:26

What we did make was the Indian Field Gun (IFG) - 105mm..this has been the mainstay of Indian Field Regiments. We also tried to make Light Field Gun and we did make it..but is was anything but light (for its weight class).

As for the metamorphosis - that is Soltam supplied upgradation kit for M-46 130mm guns to 155mm caliber...there have been mixed reports about its performance...but last I heard IA went in for more kits after the intial 180 (and sorting out of teething troubles). This is the reason OFB was/is involved but not DRDO.