Indian Military Aviation

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Singha
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Singha »

with a bare 9 sea harriers at best Viraat can repel LRMP a/c (harpoon armed) or serve as a protective screen against maritime strike a/c attempting to hit india shore targets or ships to a limited degree.

she is certainly not and never was a "strike carrier" that can take the war to any enemy with a substantial airforce.

"strike carriers" need to have a much bigger airwing to provide CAP sorties for the fleet , escort a/c and strike a/c all at the same time. ADS2 will be our entry into the club.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by narayana »

why not lease half a dozen f-35s? for 3 yrs or so
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Nihat »

Singha wrote:with a bare 9 sea harriers at best Viraat can repel LRMP a/c (harpoon armed) or serve as a protective screen against maritime strike a/c attempting to hit india shore targets or ships to a limited degree.

she is certainly not and never was a "strike carrier" that can take the war to any enemy with a substantial airforce.

"strike carriers" need to have a much bigger airwing to provide CAP sorties for the fleet , escort a/c and strike a/c all at the same time. ADS2 will be our entry into the club.

ADS-1 will also be sufficiant for the task of a strike carrier I suppose, a fleet of 30 Mig-29's fully armed and loaded packs quite a punch.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shiv »

narayana wrote:why not lease half a dozen f-35s? for 3 yrs or so
Starting from what year?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Rupak »

Sea Harriers and its derivitives have extremely high attrition rates. If you look at USMC, as well as figures of other operators, one gets a sense of difficulties encountered with these jets. Apparently the trickiest part, and the bit where most crashes occur is during transition from forward flight to vertical flight and vice-versa.

All in all the the LUSH is an excellent trials platform for systems that will mature once the Naval LCA comes online (radar, avioinics, EW, displays and weapons) as well as providing the Navy will a real life laboratory to evaluate the effectiveness of this package. So it's money well spent.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Singha »

Nihat,

one of the key limitations of ADS sized carriers (incl Cavour) is they rely on ski jumps and apparently cannot launch and recover ac at the same time (pls correct me if wrong).

in comparison one of the supercarriers can launch 4 a/c within every few mins using 2 waist cats and 2 fwd cats. or use the 2 fwd cats
and still recover planes in the rear (allegedly...though nobody talks of what happens if wires are missed and plane needs to go around)

in any case, 4 cats sure mean more surge sorties and redundancy.

also without fixed wing AWACS , they only have KA31 radar pickets or land based phalcons for cover - not good for a platinum asset.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Rupak »

Singha
Simulteneous launch and recovery is a function of size and layout, not ski-jump vs CTOL.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shiv »

Singha wrote: in comparison one of the supercarriers can launch 4 a/c within every few mins using 2 waist cats and 2 fwd cats. or use the 2 fwd cats
and still recover planes in the rear (allegedly...though nobody talks of what happens if wires are missed and plane needs to go around)
GD the takeoffs are oblique, so that if the aircraft has to ditch the carrier will not go over it.

the simultaneous landings are in the long axis (aft to fore) of the ship and if they miss they do another chukker.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Rahul M »

but in smaller VTOL carriers the take-off is along the long axis.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shukla »

Indian MOD issues RFI for 60 man-portable target designators
The Indian MOD has issued an RFI to procure 60 light weight portable target laser designators(LWPTD) to carry out laser designation missions by the Indian Air Force (IAF). The LWPTD are to be man-portable. The last date for responding to the RFI has been fixed for May 25
Technical requirements: Configuration should be man portable and have LRF, Laser Designator compatible with a NATO laser kits including Pave way and Griffin Laser kits. Laser Designation LOS range upto 10 km. Should have capability selectable PRF codes from 0 to 20 pps. TI Sight Should have good optical cameras with adequate Field of View for recognition of combat vehicles and troops. Position fixation Capability to fix own position and give locations of target systems with high degree of accuracy. Life Total Technical Life of more than 10 years.

Companies such as Thales, a global leader in defence electronics and several Israeli firms manufacture target designators.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shiv »

Rupak wrote:Sea Harriers and its derivitives have extremely high attrition rates. If you look at USMC, as well as figures of other operators, one gets a sense of difficulties encountered with these jets. Apparently the trickiest part, and the bit where most crashes occur is during transition from forward flight to vertical flight and vice-versa.

All in all the the LUSH is an excellent trials platform for systems that will mature once the Naval LCA comes online (radar, avioinics, EW, displays and weapons) as well as providing the Navy will a real life laboratory to evaluate the effectiveness of this package. So it's money well spent.
What the F-35 brochure does not say is the temperatures that will be reached on the deck surface of an Indian ship as it does a vertical landing. The Harrier used to carry a ton (or something) of water to inject into the exhaust to reduce temperatures. The F-35 has some other cooling mechanism that I read about recently - can't recall where. But it was too hot - at least initially.

Click
The initial culprit is the MV-22 tiltrotor, but the big concern is the STOVL F-35B, which is due on deck after 2012. With nacelles tilted and rotors turning, hot exhaust from the Osprey's engines is buckling the decks, and Navy studies warn repeated buckling will cause deck failure at 40% of planned ship life. F-35B exhaust plumes are expected to have a "severe thermo-mechanical impact" on the structure and non-skid surface of the flight deck.
<snip>
ONR is looking for thermal management technologies that can keep the deck surface temperature below 300ºF when exposed to MV-22 exhaust plumes for 90 minutes before takeoff, and F-35B exhaust plumes for 2 minutes when landing. And cooling the deck is not enough - any solution has to be compatible with the deck's non-skid coating. It also has to be affordable and capable of being installed below deck or retrofitted above deck.
But Amerika is our friend. They will solve the problem for us.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Carl_T »

I don't think that is true, the STOVL F-35 isn't meant for the Navy, I think that goes to the USMC. Navy flies the F-35C which doesn't have the lift fan.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shiv »

Carl_T wrote:I don't think that is true, the STOVL F-35 isn't meant for the Navy, I think that goes to the USMC. Navy flies the F-35C which doesn't have the lift fan.
Carlgaru - I don't think anyone flies the F 35 yet other than the design test team. But surely the VTOL F-35 cannot be leased for 3 years by the Indian Navy as suggested can it? India has no marine corps. Only the Indian Navy would need it and it would burn a hole right through Viraat's deck and through Indian pockets.

I have a reason for stressing the F 35s problems. That is an aircraft that is not yet in service but has caught th imagination of the enthusiast public among Indians. i see that as a threat. A propaganda victory even before an aircraft comes into service is putting stars in the eyes of people who will be tomorrows decision makers among Indians. At that future date people will wonder where American power comes from. Well here it is - an American product is loved and desired by Indians years before it enters service. The F-35s lure reminds me of Aurangzeb's famous pluralism.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by NRao »

The exhaust temp from the F-35 will prevent it from being deployed in most cases, since it will need a special runway material (NOT talking of naval usage). This is not the case with the Harriers.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Carl_T »

shiv wrote:
I have a reason for stressing the F 35s problems. That is an aircraft that is not yet in service but has caught th imagination of the enthusiast public among Indians. i see that as a threat. A propaganda victory even before an aircraft comes into service is putting stars in the eyes of people who will be tomorrows decision makers among Indians. At that future date people will wonder where American power comes from. Well here it is - an American product is loved and desired by Indians years before it enters service. The F-35s lure reminds me of Aurangzeb's famous pluralism.
Don't disagree with you, I was just pointing at the article, and it points at the problems of the STOVL version, which I don't believe is meant to be used on carriers, the naval variant I imagine wouldn't have those problems as the exhaust wouldn't point down.

For India even getting the Naval version may not be realistic for the IN as I don't think we have Nimitz sized nuclear ACs. I did not realize that the F-35 was that widely admired, I always thought it was the choice thrust upon the USN and USAF. That and I don't see why we need $100M stealth fighters for the Navy when Mig-29s/NLCAs would do very well.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by NRao »

Check DTI Page 40 "Quality time", tail end on F-35 recs for runway.

(And just for kicks also note the previous para about a land based runway with capability to hook naval F-18s!!!)
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Rahul M »

if IN goes for a 5-gen carrier-borne fighter, which it eventually will, the most likely options are the naval FGFA and/or AMCA.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by NRao »

Rahul M wrote:if IN goes for a 5-gen carrier-borne fighter, which it eventually will, the most likely options are the naval FGFA and/or AMCA.
And, the IAF is also set.

I just do not see a F-35 fit for India. Something drastic has to happen for the F-35 to pay a visit.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by jaladipc »

^^^

My bets would be on Navalised FGFA.If we look at the PAK-FA itself is ready for take off in less than 300m runway.Any catapult assisted take-off will make it much more viable for carrier operations. With its payload and long flight range, is a must to be considered bird.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shiv »

NRao wrote:Check DTI Page 40 "Quality time", tail end on F-35 recs for runway.

(And just for kicks also note the previous para about a land based runway with capability to hook naval F-18s!!!)

:shock: Good catch!!!
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by NRao »

shiv wrote:
NRao wrote:Check DTI Page 40 "Quality time", tail end on F-35 recs for runway.

(And just for kicks also note the previous para about a land based runway with capability to hook naval F-18s!!!)

:shock: Good catch!!!
Actually, I am very impressed with what the Iraq and A'sthan wars have done for US thinking at a granular level (NOT at "Af-Pak Policy" or a General P crap level). Some of the solutions provided are really refreshing.

Shiv,

BTW, you can subscribe - free - to that magazine. Dunno about delivery within India. (If you have time check out the stuff about Chinese hacking, :) and the trimaran LCS ship under trials.)
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Juggi G »

Defence Ministry Copter Deal Faces Another Hurdle
The helicopter model offered by Eurocopter was unable to perform high altitude hover-out-of-ground-effect (HOGE).
The problem with ROE’s Kamov was that the engine to be fitted on Kamov 226T will be Arrius 2G1 which is not yet certified.
While Agusta Westland, was facing serious problems with the MoD due to misunderstanding on a nomenclature issue.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Juggi G »

Craig Alpert
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Craig Alpert »

Attack helicopter evaluation trials likely in summer
With the Indian Air Force embarking on modernisation, the skies over different parts of the country will witness yet another high-profile test with evaluations of attack helicopters due to start this summer.

Seeking to get off the mark, Boeing is fielding the AH-64D Apache helicopter for the trials, Dean Millsap, regional director, Asia Pacific International Business Development, told a group of visiting Indian journalists here.

Mr. Millisap said an IAF team was due to arrive in the United States and thereafter dates for the trials in different weather conditions would be finalised. Boeing is among the international companies that responded to the Request for Proposal (RFP) issued by the IAF last year for supply of 22 attack helicopters.

These will replace the Russian-made attack helicopters being operated by the IAF. Boeing is also offering Chinooks, its tandem rotor, twin engine, heavy lift twin rotor helicopters. The deal is estimated to be around $ 2 billion.

The Boeing representative told the journalists, after a tour of the facility where Chinooks are manufactured, that in the case of Apache, India would get the Block 3 helicopter, the same version that was being acquired by the U.S. Air Force.

Since 1984, over 1,700 Apache attack helicopters have been manufactured and Block 3 came on the assembly line last year equipped with improved target detection, increased situational awareness and survivability. One of the features, he said, was connectivity with unmanned aerial vehicles.

The present-day Apache helicopters can perform multimissions, including with fire-and-forget missiles, auxiliary fuel tanks, air-to-air missiles, crashworthy structure, advanced sensors, advanced targeting sight and integrated electronic maintenance.

Boeing is also augmenting its manufacturing facility to meet its orders by ramping up production from 4.5 Chinooks a month to six by 2011. The company is in the race for 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft and has completed a set of trials.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by ShauryaT »

shiv wrote: What the F-35 brochure does not say is the temperatures that will be reached on the deck surface of an Indian ship as it does a vertical landing. The Harrier used to carry a ton (or something) of water to inject into the exhaust to reduce temperatures. The F-35 has some other cooling mechanism that I read about recently - can't recall where. But it was too hot - at least initially.
I think it is the novel second fan that is used, which brings in cool air from the atmosphere or at least that is what I remember from a documentary on it. I am not a toy specialist, so someone may pitch in to correct. Thanks.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Carl_T »

~deleted~
Last edited by Carl_T on 14 May 2010 20:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by SKrishna »

Carl_T wrote:The F-35 variant that has a fan is not supposed to be used on ships...afaik.
Thats the version that will fly from British Carriers and US Marine ships..
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Carl_T »

Hmm...in that case, why are there different variants for USN and USMC instead of both using the same STOVL version if they are both carrier capable?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by SKrishna »

^^^

The USN variant is CATOBAR but British only operate STOVL carriers (the new QE carriers are also STOVL) so one variant for the USN and other with lift fan for US Marines and British NAVY (Thats why the British got involved in the project canceling the Naval variant of Typhoon afaik)
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Carl_T »

I mean to ask, why wouldn't the USN use a STOVL version? Would it not make takeoffs and landings easier for pilots?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Viv S »

Carl_T wrote:Hmm...in that case, why are there different variants for USN and USMC if they are both carrier capable?
The F-35B has a bigger emphasis on CAS than the F-35C. Also, the USMC will want to use of landing pads created by engineering elements close to the frontline. Basically serving in the role not very different from attack helicopters. It will replace the Harrier II and Hornet.
I mean to ask, why wouldn't the USN use a STOVL version? Would it not make takeoffs and landings easier for pilots?
Reduced payload and range. The USN carrier wing's first priority is fleet air defence.
Last edited by Viv S on 14 May 2010 22:31, edited 2 times in total.
SKrishna
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by SKrishna »

STOVL landings are not at all easy. Any Harrier pilot would vouch for that (its the most difficult aircraft to handle) Many Harriers have been lost while landing (even IN ones)... Any ways USN operates massive CATOBAR carriers so they would not think of STOVL. That's only a British fetish :wink:
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by NRao »

USMC expect to use it in "forward bases" - close to the fight as opposed to ships, etc. (Ref the latest DTI issue on Harriers in A'stan - sharing a base with others (which can take an hour to fuel up) vs. establishing a "forward base" (fuel up in 20 min or less) AND save on transit time between base of station. At such bases they do not use the V part as much as we would like to think.)
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shiv »

NRao wrote:USMC expect to use it in "forward bases" - close to the fight as opposed to ships, etc. (Ref the latest DTI issue on Harriers in A'stan - sharing a base with others (which can take an hour to fuel up) vs. establishing a "forward base" (fuel up in 20 min or less) AND save on transit time between base of station. At such bases they do not use the V part as much as we would like to think.)
Long ago it was envisaged that Harriers would be used near the frontline in case of a Soviet attack on Europe just as they are being used in Afghanistan.

But anyhow - this is the Indian Aviation thread so I will not post what I am thinking here.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by NRao »

I think you should post what you think (I say this with no intentions of getting you into trouble).

However, the thinking that whatever the West/Soviets/Russians make and use is good enough for India is a misguided mind. IMHO of course. And, we know only so much about what has been changed in say the MiG-21 - there are a few items that even the Russians are not privy to in the Indian MiG-21. I suspect this thinking is fueled by the total lack of progress within India (ratio of what India can do vs. what it has done), but modifications are a totally diff ball game.

WRT Harriers, were they not conceived as "jump jets" for front-line deployment? IIRC long back there was this thinking that these jets could even land in god forsaken places and pop-up to surprise the enemy - when sensors were rather weak as compared to today.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by sathyaC »

Engine Trouble may put Mig-27 for early retirement
http://idrw.org/?p=1666
Indian Air force is considering retiring major fleet of mig-27 by 2015, as per reports almost half the squadrons strength will be “stood down” by 2015 .Fatal accident which have taken place recently all has been attributed to defects of R-29 engines, initial air force investigation has found major flaw in fourth line at the overhaul stage which is done by Hindustan Aeronautics limited.

Poor serviceability and design defects had forced IAF to ground all Mig-27 Squadrons after a Squadron leader was killed in February crash, sudden loss of power in low pressure turbine blades of the aircraft was reason behind the crash.

Mig-27 along with Jaguar aircraft still forms a major chuck of Strike fleet of Indian Air force; recently around 40 aircrafts were upgraded to Darin-II standards which sport a new navigation-and-attack avionics package, electronic warfare suite developed by the state-owned Defence Research & Development Organisation.

Initially Darin-II upgrade package also included Engine upgrade, a single modern AL-31 engine that powers the Su-30 MKI was supposed to power Mig-27, and a single Mig-27 from IAF fleet was integrated and successfully tested in Russia by MiG-MAPO group, the original manufacturers of the MiG series of aircraft with an AL-31 engine but for some reason the plan never materialized.

It might come has a boom to Tejas MK-1 Program since Air force might consider ordering more Tejas Mk-1 from the current order of 40 jets due to early retirement been given to Mig-27 , while air force will maintain other fleet of Mig-27 with it till end of 2020 .
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by sathyaC »

IAF pulls Kiran Mk.I from Retirement
http://idrw.org/?p=1664
Grounding of HPT-32 which is used for Stage I training and shortage of Kiran Mk.II has forced Indian air force to bring back Kiran Mk.I from retirement, initially inducted in 1968 Kiran Mk.I were retired and kept in store after more powerful Kiran Mk.IA and Kiran Mk.II was introduced in late 70’s, while trainee pilots only fly 20 hours each on Kiran Mk.I and then they move to Stage-II Training in Hakimpet which now involves Kiran Mk.IA, while Stage-III is been done on Kiran Mk.II or Hawks, pilots fly 200 hours in Stage-III ,while Trainee pilots batched for Hawks get 25 % training on Hawk Simulator and then at FTW (Fighter Training Wing) they get more 75 hours on Supersonic jets mostly Mig-21 before they are move to operational squadrons.

Delays in procurement of Hawk jets and then manufacturing them and also delays caused by changes in ASR for IJT-36 which will eventually replace Kiran Mk.II forced IAF to bring Kiran Mk.I from Retirement. Emergency plan to bring back Kiran Mk.I from Retirement was done since IAF has the largest trainee pilot’s batch this time (300 Trainee pilots) in decades.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by sathyaC »

Russia to develop “Stealth” combat Helicopters
http://idrw.org/?p=1662
Russian State Media has reported that Russia is planning to develop a Stealthy Attack Helicopter, Andrei shibitov, chief executive officer of the Russian Helicopter company said that “we are working on a concept of a 5th generation combat Helicopters which will be invisible to radars and will have good maneuverability to take on fighter aircraft in combat ” .

US Army with Boeing and Sikorsky had started similar program for development of a Stealthy helicopter code named RAH-66 Comanche, program was canceled in 2004 before it entered production. And only two prototypes were ever built, still Comanche had stealth design and internal weapons bay just like 5th generation fighter aircraft’s have in them.

Russian concept is still a concept and no funds have been sanctioned by Russian Defence ministry yet
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Craig Alpert »

sathyaC wrote:Engine Trouble may put Mig-27 for early retirement
http://idrw.org/?p=1666
Indian Air force is considering retiring major fleet of mig-27 by 2015, as per reports almost half the squadrons strength will be “stood down” by 2015 .Fatal accident which have taken place recently all has been attributed to defects of R-29 engines, initial air force investigation has found major flaw in fourth line at the overhaul stage which is done by Hindustan Aeronautics limited.

Poor serviceability and design defects had forced IAF to ground all Mig-27 Squadrons after a Squadron leader was killed in February crash, sudden loss of power in low pressure turbine blades of the aircraft was reason behind the crash.

Mig-27 along with Jaguar aircraft still forms a major chuck of Strike fleet of Indian Air force; recently around 40 aircrafts were upgraded to Darin-II standards which sport a new navigation-and-attack avionics package, electronic warfare suite developed by the state-owned Defence Research & Development Organisation.

Initially Darin-II upgrade package also included Engine upgrade, a single modern AL-31 engine that powers the Su-30 MKI was supposed to power Mig-27, and a single Mig-27 from IAF fleet was integrated and successfully tested in Russia by MiG-MAPO group, the original manufacturers of the MiG series of aircraft with an AL-31 engine but for some reason the plan never materialized.

It might come has a boom to Tejas MK-1 Program since Air force might consider ordering more Tejas Mk-1 from the current order of 40 jets due to early retirement been given to Mig-27 , while air force will maintain other fleet of Mig-27 with it till end of 2020 .
Call it a blessing in disguise! But if the above is indeed true, then ALL YELL SEE YAY!!!
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by karan_mc »

I think its a calculated risk taken by IAF , MMRCA will be coming in and Tejas and along with MKI will feel the slot for retiring Mig-21 and Mig-27 ,BUT and a big BUT if MMRCA or MKI goes out of schedule even for some years then Extra Tejas may be ordered
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