Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Apr. 11, 2010

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 13 May 2010 02:51

Antony to Pakistan: dialogue fine, but shut down terror camps

http://www.hindu.com/2010/05/13/stories ... 301400.htm

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 13 May 2010 03:38

^^^^
When every one house out of ten is a terror camp - the home of a jihadi - how to shut them all down?

Karna_A · Post by **Karna_A** » 13 May 2010 04:17

TSP has singlehandedly made the famous Benjamin Franklin Quote as wrong:
"The only things certain in life are death and taxes."

The only thing certain in TSP life is @Home Death or @Foreign Jail.

TSP passport all over the world has become the kiss of death. It starts at enhanced questioning and ends at extensive and sometimes broad cavity search.

Why should the resourceful Baluchis, hard-working Mohajirs/Sindhis and big-hearted Pathans be subjected to this when all this is due only because of Pakjabis?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 13 May 2010 04:29

Their best is not good enough

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=238700

Thus, today the Annual Confidential Reports of all government officers require the reporting officer to indicate whether the officer being reported on is a good Muslim. That Pakistan’s greatest hypocrite, Ziaul Haq, a declared accessory to a (judicial) murder, was responsible, says it all. In Pakistan, the murderer and his victim, the robber and the robbed, all seek His help, which is understandable, but what is not is how one of them expects to retrieve his property while the other make off with it at the same time, and all with God’s help. Needless to say, in a society which places prime importance on a man’s religious obligations rather than those to his fellow men or the state, which is the case in Pakistan, turmoil will prevail. Especially if each sect believes that any other interpretation of the Sharia is heretical, nay, beyond the pale of Islam. Our clerics wrangle for religion, fight for it, and die for it, anything but live for it. They prefer to politicise Islam rather than make politics Islamic.Of the 33,000 madressahs which are functioning today, only 13,000 are registered. The rest operate largely unmonitored and unsupervised, free to teach what they wish, even though education is the soul of a society. Of course, not all of them are churning out potential recruits for the Taliban, but many do, because 11,000 students annually emerge from madressahs with nothing else but the ability to recite the Quran by heart. Their intellect "is perfectly and permanently preserved at the stage of boyhood." Well-developed bodies and underdeveloped minds. ( Gustaph, nasamajh Munafqueen) nama In any case, as a great teacher once said, "What is the use of transmitting knowledge if the individual’s total development lags behind?" What, indeed, one may ask, is the point of being able to read if one is unable to distinguish what is worth reading?
In this regard, it is not that this government has no plan, it does not even know where to begin.The government claims that it is doing its best, but clearly its best is not enough. And neither the politicians nor the military can do it on their own. The government cannot tackle the extremists by itself as the police, though brave, are decrepit. And the military needs help to mobilise public support. The two must, therefore, come together. Perhaps one way to start would be the formation of a government of national unity.

The writer is a Ahmadi ambassador. Email: [email protected]

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 13 May 2010 04:37

Munna hai tuu, Mera Poodle Hai tuu
Taaalibano ki ankho ka Taara hai tuu
http://www.brecorder.com/latestindex.ph ... t_id=11405

Obama praises Pakistan's anti-militant push
WASHINGTON (updated on: May 12, 2010, 21:46 PST): US President Barack Obama said Wednesday he was ‘encouraged’ by Pakistan's anti-extremist efforts, but warned the operation to flush out militants would take time.
‘I think what you have seen over the last several months is a growing recognition that they have a cancer in their midst,’ Obama said. ‘I am actually encouraged from what I have seen from the Pakistani government over the last several months.‘But just as it's going to take some time for Afghanistan's economy, for example, to fully recover from 30 years of war, it's going to take some time from Pakistan, even if there is a will, to find a way in order to effectively deal with these extremists in areas that are fairly loosely governed from Islamabad."You know, part of what I've been encouraged by is Pakistan's willingness to start asserting more control over some of these areas. But it's not going to happen overnight," Obama said.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 13 May 2010 04:39

Seems to me as though as an Islamic state, Pakistan is failing in asserting its Islamic state monopoly of saying what Islam is or at least its monopoly on what Jihad is.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 13 May 2010 04:40

Jihadi infrastructure
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... ucture-250

Copies of computerised national ID cards and alien registration cards belonging to Afghan nationals and local supporters of the Jaish-i-Muhammad were also confiscated by law-enforcement officials from the mosque. The material seized in the raid, carried out in the wake of the failed Times Square bomb plot, included speeches of Jaish leader Masood Azhar ( Kurbani Ka Bakra) the banned outfit’s literature as well as donation receipts. The mosque was also maintaining data on Jaish cadres. This compels us to ask why the government takes action against jihadi groups only when there is pressure from abroad?

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 13 May 2010 05:21

Prem wrote:
Of the 33,000 madressahs which are functioning today, only 13,000 are registered. The rest operate largely unmonitored and unsupervised, free to teach what they wish, even though education is the soul of a society. Of course, not all of them are churning out potential recruits for the Taliban, but many do, because 11,000 students annually emerge from madressahs with nothing else but the ability to recite the Quran by heart.

I hope Hilaly Sahib updates the numbers. 11000 graduates from these 13000 (assuming he is focussing on registered ones only) seems quite a low level of productivity. Or is it madressah math in action? Wonder if the rest 20000 are more productive. If they are it will become a case for remaining out of the registration loop.

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 13 May 2010 05:27

<deleted> Kenop has come up with the same doubt that i had

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 13 May 2010 05:51

Rupesh wrote:<deleted> Kenop has come up with the same doubt that i had

Doubt not the numbers as one Paki is 1/10 of a kaffir and Pakistan is the Land of Believers. The real doubtful part is the author has doubted the validity of the Book which contain all that science try to teach . The man need to be pusnihed per pure Sharia procedure.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 13 May 2010 05:54

Mahendra wrote:Pakbarian propagandoo video against Bollywood

I like the way he Raps about it. Apparently Rap is halal

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 May 2010 06:17

kenop wrote:
a_kumar wrote: AK based groups??
JeM operates from the area Pukistan calls Azad Kashmir

Why not just indicate the side you are on by saying PoK?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 May 2010 06:25

Gagan wrote:Long term, I think that Kiyani has promised the US and China that he will direct the Jihadi terrorists towards India.

He can promise anything. Those nations are proven idiots when it comes to Pakis, but this IMO will no longer work. Those articles about the GeNext jihadis was an eye opener. Compared with them the old fogeys of the LeT toeing the RAPE-army line seem like shy blushing brides.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 13 May 2010 06:48

Abdullah Hussain Haroon (Paki Amby to UN) speaks to CBS in the following video , About Sahzad , Hillary Clinton, .his nephew, maximum number of AQ donor to USA and other random things ...
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6471329n
(20 min video, watch first few minutes or more if you want)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 May 2010 06:53

kenop, we don't refer to Pak Occupied Kashmir in terms you use. Is there difficulty on referring to it as POK?

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 13 May 2010 07:23

Gagan wrote:Long term, I think that Kiyani has promised the US and China that he will direct the Jihadi terrorists towards India.

That is always the strategy. West always wanted to shift Jehadi forces from ME to India so that West-Israel and Oil can live peacefully while India bleeds.

Here is what I tried very crudely posted in TSP thread during February.

Though, some stalwarts on this forum disagree, I am of the firm opinion that talking to Pakistan has everything to do with apeasing Indian muslims. From 2004 onwards, every terror hit only helped Muslims moving towards INC. Some think here that Indian Muslims have moved on since 1947 and Pakistan is not a factor in their lives but I respectfully disagree.

Off cource there is no doubt that US also want India talking to Pakistan for a different but similar reason.

Both domestically and internationally if we go back in a time machine to 1980s ( my favorite period of analysis) and early 1990s, I believe we have answers regarding why US wants us to talk to Pak and why INC also wants to talk to Pak.

Internationally
* Jihadi factory is busy with anti-Isreal and anti-Russia operations. Kashmir was third in the priority hence India did not face the entire factory output
* Both the West ( US and Western Europe) milked cheap Oil from middle east using the favorable regimes while these regimes in collusion with west funded the entire factory.
* First problem - Some of the factory became job-less to an extent after Rubin and Arafat made a deal.
* Second problem - End of cold war released all the factory employees

At this time the best visible thing available for Islamic factory was Kashmir. Using Robin Raphel etc., they decided to make all the factory employed against Kashmir and which is also direct interest to our western neighbor. West failed and there was a time-lag to make Kashmir fight equivalant to that of Israel or Russia. Meanwhile unemployed factory employees turned their guns on the west which is called as alkeeda.

Bush wanted to confront it and change the world order in a different way. The Dems admin still has confidence that they can return back to golden 80s and make Kashmir as next employable area for all the Jeehadis. It is this thought process where they want to see good Taliban, someone equivalant to Zia (in Kiyani) and then operationalize the factory slowly in Kashmir. Here is where even Saudi's importance in solving Afghan problem comes into picture.

The challenges:
1) Western Europe is not keen in this rollback to 1980s as they are getting equivalant free oil from Russia.
2) There are no strategies for US regarding how to keep the non-pasthun areas of Afghan happy in this factory-restart deal

India domestically
* In 1980s Muslims voted to INC as a single block. Apeasement of those days is multi-fold at micro/macro level.
* Even post 1965 and 1971, INC had to do a rope trick to get alienated Muslim vote into its fold. 1971 was easy because of Bangla Muslims. Post 1965, INC lost a lot of seats and Indira was also dependent on Left to survive ( INC split also is the reason)
* The first anger of Muslims was visible when Ayodhya temple was opened by Rajiv. It did not move away totally.
* It started moving away after India started diplomatic relations with Israel
* It got wiped out when Babri collapsed

From 2004 onwards, INC did all the manoverabilty it can do after every terror attack. Most of us blame Shivraj patil as dumb etc. but his non-decision making is the real reason for Muslims to beleive that their past glory will be returned only if INC comes back to power and not Mulayams and Left. The approach is very simple as they show every apeasement openly with (1) stop Afzal hanging (2) Never allow arrests from sleeper cells and on top of that protect them (there are several examples) (3) Open channels with Pak (aman-ki-asha types). It paid rich dividends at elections.

In their onward march on this pursuit - Mumbai blasts and IPL types are just hurdles. They have the will power and they will march on with slight delays.

Kashmir burning and once in a while terror attack on India are very convinient things for US, Pakistan and Indian ruling congress party. All these three entities will keep trying to achieve that. The only challenges they will face are certain game changing events that happened in late 90s and the first decade of 21 century.

For US: Kashmir burns so that jehadis are having fulltime job and also 9/11s may not repeat and Middle Eastern kingdoms will survive
For Pak: Can be united using Islamic takleef and jeehad for Kashmir could be uniting factor
For INC of India: Every Terror attack will give them oppurtunity to show to IMs that how loyal they are to them by not taking action on any criminal even though they are caught red handed. Few people here and there dead is not going to change anything in India. Soldiers are anyway paid to die. Few Unnikrishnans are alway expendable. There are Padma awards and Ashok chakras for such folks.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 13 May 2010 07:29

Interior minister Rehman Malik corruption and land grab cases

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 13 May 2010 07:57

kenop wrote:11000 graduates from these 13000 (assuming he is focussing on registered ones only) seems quite a low level of productivity. Or is it madressah math in action? Wonder if the rest 20000 are more productive. If they are it will become a case for remaining out of the registration loop.

Rupesh wrote:Kenop has come up with the same doubt that I had

There are various estimates. There are 1.5 to 1.7 million students in over 13000 madrassahs (by c. 2007) according to Al-Wafaq-ul-Madaris. This is a joint body of five main seminaries’ boards of Berelvis, Ahl-i-Hadith, Shias, Deoband and Jamaat-eIslami and is the ultimate regulator of madrasseh; by the own admission of the Madaris, since the 9/11 attacks and the UN resolution in 2001, the madrassahs have grown from 6761 to 11221 by circa 2005 and to 13000 by circa 2007. Dr. Hasan Askari Rizvi, the noted political and defence analyst estimates 20000 madrasseh not counting the rudimentary ones which do not offer schooling, while the unofficial count of madrassahs is as high as 40000.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 May 2010 08:29

Has anyone noticed that the image of a jihadi in US is now Paki whereas right after 9/11 it was Arab.

Earlier it as Muslim. Now its Paki.

In a way the poison is perceived to be Paki.

Very puranesque!

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 13 May 2010 08:42

That is a great observation Ramana garu. Effectively it is a Win for the muslim world and in the short term should be encouraged. If Obama has conceived it like this all the more kudos to him and his team.

We need to encourage this view. Pakistan is the primary reason for the world's (mis) perceptions of Islam and Muslim world. How the hell can Pakistan be appointed to be the leader of Muslim world? We need make more intellectual investment to develop and spread this line of thought. It is in the interest of muslim world to isloate Pakistan and show them their true place...in gutter.

derkonig · Post by **derkonig** » 13 May 2010 08:53

Paki cricketers are mentally retarded...
http://www.cricbuzz.com/cricket-news/26 ... rded--Alam

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 13 May 2010 08:55

It is just me or others too are noting that the kill rate of the national bird has increased significantly since the past few(couple?) weeks. If this continues, Pak is/will be losing a golden opportunity to earn the blood money (precious dollars from US) for killing its own citizens.

For now, given that Pak Army is resisting doing it itselves and (co)incidentally the domestic voilence (IEDs) coming down suggests that there is an agreement. But given that US is doing reasonable job I wonder how long Pak will keep its side of bargain with the beards.

I suspect Pak Army joins the fray shortly realizing that they are losing their beards anyway, why not collect some money by doing the honors itself.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 May 2010 08:56

Satya_anveshi wrote: We need to encourage this view. Pakistan is the primary reason for the world's (mis) perceptions of Islam and Muslim world. How the hell can Pakistan be appointed to be the leader of Muslim world? We need make more intellectual investment to develop and spread this line of thought. It is in the interest of muslim world to isloate Pakistan and show them their true place...in gutter.

Correct. The islamic republic of Pakistan claims to represent Islam and lays claim to be the only country set up as a home for Muslims. Since Pakistan encourages terrorism and trains terrorists - that must be an Islamic requirement. How would I know unless other Muslims clearly tell me that terrorism and Islam are not one and the same. If Islam does not mean terrorism, how come Islamic countries do not condemn Pakistani actions as unislamic? Until that happens I will keep on thinking that Islam means terrorism.

I wrote this in 2005:
An attack on Pakistan is an attack on Islam

One question that stems from Pakistani actions is whether much of what is done is really Islamic or not. This is a question that should be answered by Islamic scholars from other Islamic nations. In the absence of widespread Islamic condemnation that Pakistan has been misusing or misinterpreting Islam, it can only be assumed that Pakistani claims to ownership of Islam are genuine and legitimate, and that claims of such ownership are tacitly acknowledged and supported by other Islamic nations, who are clearly aware of Pakistan ’s claim to Islam.

This question of whether Pakistani behavior is truly Islamic has even greater impact on Pakistan itself, and the so-called “Islamic world” at large. Pakistani leaders can hardly claim that the actions of their nation are not Islamic because doing so would mean giving up their claim on Islam and also losing the freedom the “Islam card” gives Pakistan , so that it can continue to break all norms of international behavior without fear of condemnation or retribution.

But while Pakistan lays claim on Islam, the picture of Islam that is emerging from Pakistan is not one of an egalitarian religion of peace, but that of an intolerant faith at war with everyone else. This is the new “Pakistan-sponsored image” of Islam, which can only be changed by the community of Islamic nations, who surely must have the concern and interest to do this. Cleaning up the image of a “Violent and vengeful Islam” that has been effectively promoted by Pakistan cannot come from non-Islamic states. It shows no signs of coming from within Pakistan . That responsibility lies with Islamic states. The non-Islamic world can only stand by and watch.

And this from 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-35hzc8PQ4

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 13 May 2010 09:02

Pakistan and Times Sq.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/13/opini ... istof.html

People with links to Pakistan have been behind a hugely disproportionate share of international terror incidents over the last two decades: ...

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 13 May 2010 09:09

shiv wrote: Why not just indicate the side you are on by saying PoK?

I was not trying to indicate anything about sides I am on. Just wanted to indicate the geographical area.
My last post on this particular point.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 13 May 2010 09:24

shiv wrote:If Islam does not mean terrorism, how come Islamic countries do not condemn Pakistani actions as unislamic? Until that happens I will keep on thinking that Islam means terrorism.

I wrote this in 2005:
An attack on Pakistan is an attack on Islam

One question that stems from Pakistani actions is whether much of what is done is really Islamic or not. This is a question that should be answered by Islamic scholars from other Islamic nations. In the absence of widespread Islamic condemnation that Pakistan has been misusing or misinterpreting Islam, it can only be assumed that Pakistani claims to ownership of Islam are genuine and legitimate, and that claims of such ownership are tacitly acknowledged and supported by other Islamic nations, who are clearly aware of Pakistan ’s claim to Islam.

This question of whether Pakistani behavior is truly Islamic has even greater impact on Pakistan itself, and the so-called “Islamic world” at large. Pakistani leaders can hardly claim that the actions of their nation are not Islamic because doing so would mean giving up their claim on Islam and also losing the freedom the “Islam card” gives Pakistan , so that it can continue to break all norms of international behavior without fear of condemnation or retribution.

But while Pakistan lays claim on Islam, the picture of Islam that is emerging from Pakistan is not one of an egalitarian religion of peace, but that of an intolerant faith at war with everyone else. This is the new “Pakistan-sponsored image” of Islam, which can only be changed by the community of Islamic nations, who surely must have the concern and interest to do this. Cleaning up the image of a “Violent and vengeful Islam” that has been effectively promoted by Pakistan cannot come from non-Islamic states. It shows no signs of coming from within Pakistan . That responsibility lies with Islamic states. The non-Islamic world can only stand by and watch.
And this from 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-35hzc8PQ4

I have read it and seen the video before Shiv ji. Absolutely brilliant!

Obviously, India has been talking about this but given that we are an aggrieved party people misinterpret our take. Which are the other nations that can talk about this openly and whose interest lie in aligning with us in this regard?

I think this is a serious enough mission in itself that our MEA and other institutions along with folks like us should play more active role. Nothing punctures Pakis more than "their own" talking them down. It is essential to increase the so called "moderates" in Pakistan and ignite debates in their media openly. Currently they are doing it rarely/superficially and incoherently.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 May 2010 09:24

kenop wrote:
shiv wrote: Why not just indicate the side you are on by saying PoK?
I was not trying to indicate anything about sides I am on. Just wanted to indicate the geographical area.
My last post on this particular point.

Do you believe that the part of kashmir in Pakistan's hands is "Azad"(Free) Kashmir and Indian J&K is not free - i.e occupied Kashmir.

1) Do you not know?
2) Do you just not care?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 May 2010 09:45

Satya_anveshi wrote:
Obviously, India has been talking about this but given that we are an aggrieved party people misinterpret our take. Which are the other nations that can talk about this openly and whose interest lie in aligning with us in this regard?

India cannot talk about it officially until a sufficient mass of Indians start talking about it.

We recognise Pakistan as a nation state and have diplomatic relations with the Islamic republic of Pakistan. Pakistan claims to represent the Muslims of the subcontinent and trains terrorists in training camps who fight in Islamic militias. Is there anything wrong in reaching the conclusion that Islam means militias who kill other people and who will kill us if they had a chance.

If islam does not mean this why is Pakistan doing it? Is Pakistan unislamic?

Who am I to judge whether Pakistan is unislamic or not? Surely Islamic scholars should be able to say whether Pakistani actions are unislamic or not? Now show me a few Islamic scholars who say that Pakistani actions are unislamic? As long as Islamic scholars in India and other Muslim countries are happy that Pakistani actions are Islamic, it only means that Islamic tanzeems and lashkars to kill innocent people as Pakistan does is part of islam. If not, I would like to see a few Islamic scholars with the balls to say that Pakistan's use of terrorism in Islamic lashkars is unislamic.

Does Islam encourage cowardice among its scholars?

It is clear to most of us that Pakistan's use of Islam as an excuse for violence and terrorism survives on the cowardly silence of Islamic scholars all over the world. Is it really cowardice, or are these scholars happy about some things that Pakistan does in the name of Islam and unhappy about other things and would prefer to remain non committal and uncritical of Pakistan? If that is the case then they need not complain when Islam is accused of violence and murder. They can continue to keep their mouths shut and remain silent and non committal while the rest of the world learns about Islam from Pakistani actions. No?

Rahul Shukla · Post by **Rahul Shukla** » 13 May 2010 10:01

N-cooperation with Pakistan in tune with IAEA safeguards: China (TOI)

"The cooperation is subject to safeguards and the supervision of the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). It is in compliance with respective international obligations of the two countries," Jiang Yu, a spokeswoman for China's foreign ministry said.

dada · Post by **dada** » 13 May 2010 10:03

Some BRF members are talking about surgical strikes on terror camps in Pk.
But What exactly is it going to achieve ?
Please note that in any training camp, it is the group of instructors(who select,groom,train, evaluate performance of these terrorists) that should be targeted. Watch any relevant video available on youtube. We need to eliminate these "teachers" & their sponsorers first. Plz focus on these chaps first. The Physical Infrastructure even if destroyed can be recreated within days.

Focus on the "mental-cultural infrastructure" first. Silent Covert approach is more appropriate.
Practically 100% of these terrorists are coming from Southern-Western Paki Punjab Districts. very few or negligible from other parts of pk.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 13 May 2010 10:07

shiv wrote:Surely Islamic scholars should be able to say whether Pakistani actions are unislamic or not? Now show me a few Islamic scholars who say that Pakistani actions are unislamic?

There have been attempts by Indian Muslim scholars now and then as evidenced from this post here. Obviously we need to roll this up as part of bigger and a consistent strategy otherwise these voices will remain un-heard. More importantly, what I am trying to say, is that narrative of global muslim nations speaking against paki version needs to be established and spread. We need more vocal muslim states/scholars/media that can speak against pakislam. IMO that cannot happen in vacuum.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 May 2010 10:14

Satya_anveshi wrote:
shiv wrote:Surely Islamic scholars should be able to say whether Pakistani actions are unislamic or not? Now show me a few Islamic scholars who say that Pakistani actions are unislamic?
There have been attempts by Indian Muslim scholars now and then as evidenced from this post here. Obviously we need to roll this up as part of bigger and a consistent strategy otherwise these voices will remain un-heard. More importantly, what I am trying to say, is that narrative of global muslim nations speaking against paki version needs to be established and spread. We need more vocal muslim states/scholars/media that can speak against pakislam. IMO that cannot happen in vacuum.

Dead right. And that vacuum must be eliminated and we must protect the rights and physical security of a Muslim scholar who may put himself in danger by speaking out against Pakistan and its use of Islam as a tool for murder. If such a scholar is attacked for condemning Pakistani use of violence - it will only add to the evidence that Islam means violence.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 13 May 2010 10:31

While trolling, I found this out there. Nothing new in this for us but at a different level found it refreshing coming from an apparently a muslim.

Word for word and phase for phase has been written on this forum. Solution part in this article is interesting and worthy of consideration for the powers that be.

Pakistan is Already an Islamic State Ali Eteraz (online) - April 30, 2009 (about year old but still very relevant)

For a long time I believed that rather than deletion the better option was that of dilution. Under this approach, one would add more liberal interpretations of Islamic law into the mix to soften the hard-line wahhabi version that has dominated since Zia ul Haq’s time. Such an approach would use “good” or humane Islam to defeat “bad” or inhumane Islam. The hope would be that over time these moderate views would become mainstream.

The dilution strategy was on display in 2006 when reformers from the CII successfully argued that various elements of Pakistan’s Islamic criminal law were simply “un-Islamic.” At the time I thought this was a great move. By purportedly using Islam to thwart the hard-liners, the reformers were able to pass legislation that undermined the Hudood Ordinances and benefited many women.

I no longer ascribe to the dilution strategy. Not because it does not sometimes work but because it does nothing to challenge the essential flaw in Pakistani society: the state currently empowers citizens on the basis of their relationship to Islam rather than upon their status as “people” of Pakistan—an entity that is national and political and should not be defined by religion. The paramount purpose of a state is to guarantee political equality between its citizens, whether they are devout Muslims, non-practicing Muslims, heretical Muslims, or non-Muslims. The dilution strategy is a pragmatic approach that is unfair to those who are non-believers; not to mention unjust to those conservatives who do not wish to practice Islam progressively. Pakistan needs a document that extends itself to all Pakistanis.

Fadel believes that constitutional Islamization of the sort that Pakistan underwent is actually an intermediate phase in the longer project of democratizing Muslim majority societies. He believes that the next step is the erection of a “non-Islamic constitution that religiously committed orthodox Muslims could endorse in good faith.”

While Fadel has not made any explicit proposals with respect to Pakistan there is no shortage of men and women in the country who can take this important project further. The grand bargain that Pakistan needs today requires a neutral constitution that gives full political equality to all.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 13 May 2010 10:50

The artificial Hunza lake may burst in a few days

Thousands of villagers in the north of the country risk losing their homes to a lake formed by a landslide that could burst its banks within days, officials warned on Wednesday.

Possible disaster also threatens the popular tourist resort of Gulmit on the main Karakoram Highway linking Pakistan with China, part of which has already closed, they said.

About 1,700 people have been forced to flee their homes after floods swept through Ayeenabad and Shishkat villages in the district of Hunza, wiping out dozens of houses.

“We are expecting water from the 15 kilometre-long lake to reach the spillway by May 27,” local official Asif Bilal Lodhi told AFP. Lodhi, who heads the local Disaster Management Authority, said preparations have been finalised to shelter around 18,000 people from villages in Hunza and Gilgit districts who could be affected.

A spillway, being built by army engineers to avert possible disaster, will take an estimated two more weeks to complete.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 13 May 2010 11:00

shiv wrote:Dead right. And that vacuum must be eliminated and we must protect the rights and physical security of a Muslim scholar who may put himself in danger by speaking out against Pakistan and its use of Islam as a tool for murder. If such a scholar is attacked for condemning Pakistani use of violence - it will only add to the evidence that Islam means violence.

If we do it on wide enough basis, there is no need to ensure physical protection of these men. Further, by doing it at a larger scale and consistently, people will get time to internalize this. There is no need to test whether Islam is this or that, there is simply need to steer the boat in a desirable direction. If we are claiming to be the biggest victim of pakislam even as we have largest segment of peaceful practicing men, it is our call IMO. India and Indians should lead this and make it happen. Period. If we have to leverage or develop relationships to achieve this, so be it and we should undertake this project.

arun · Post by **arun** » 13 May 2010 11:08

Robert Grenier, former CIA chief of station in Islamabad and former director of CIA's Counter Terrorism Centre, on the adverse fallout on US relations with the Islamic Republic of Pakistan caused by the failed Islamic Terrorism attempt to car bomb New York’s Time Square by Pakistani origin Shahzad Faiasal.

I am not so sure that there will be any such adverse fall out.

The initial bellicose comment by US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton of there being “very severe consequences” for the Islamic Republic of Pakistan if an Islamic Terrorist attack on the US was traced back there has been watered down ('Hillary Clinton did not warn Pak of severe consequences')

In addition the largest patron for the Islamic Republic of Pakistan within the US Government, the US Military, is always there to settle things down for its client ( U.S. military tries to reassure Pakistan amid Times Square probe).

As in the past, expect that we will shortly be hearing of the supply of F-16 fighter aircraft, Anti Aircraft Missiles, Frigates, Anti Ship Missiles, Anti Submarine Warfare aircraft and such like military equipment which have very little conceivable application for combating terrorism being granted to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan to assuage the US slight:

UPDATED ON: Wednesday, May 12, 2010. 13:07 Mecca time, 10:07 GMT

Ominous signs for US-Pakistan ties

By Robert Grenier

This is going to turn out badly.

I have watched with some surprise, and with growing concern, the reactions of Americans to the string of revelations concerning the Pakistani links of Faisal Shahzad, the alleged would-be car bomber of Times Square. …………………

………………………… the Shahzad affair has heightened US suspicion of both Pakistani motives and Pakistani resolve in resisting extremism and militancy.

Pakistani policy toward militant groups of various stripes is far too complicated, far too ambiguous, and far too finely calibrated to ever gain clear US support.

Pakistani willingness to tolerate on its territory Afghan insurgent groups through whom it might hope to exert influence in that country has gained a certain measure of grudging, sullen tolerance from US officials, but will never find real US acceptance.

Pakistan's reluctance to move too aggressively against its many current and potential enemies at once - particularly in North Waziristan - while at times understandable to official American eyes, will always generate the nagging suspicion that at any given moment, Pakistan can, and should do more. ………………………

Al Jazeera

arun · Post by **arun** » 13 May 2010 11:25

abhishek_sharma wrote:Antony to Pakistan: dialogue fine, but shut down terror camps

http://www.hindu.com/2010/05/13/stories ... 301400.htm

Has not our Defence Minister heard that his boss and our Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh has declared at Sharm El Sheikh that talks with the Islamic Republic of Pakistan are independent of Pakistani action or inaction regards terrorism

kenop · Post by **kenop** » 13 May 2010 11:53

shiv wrote:
Do you believe that the part of kashmir in Pakistan's hands is "Azad"(Free) Kashmir and Indian J&K is not free - i.e occupied Kashmir.

1) Do you not know?
2) Do you just not care?

My mistake. Please accept my apologies.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 13 May 2010 12:00

a lot of spin given by the commentator in this article.

Obama deflects criticism of Pakistan

WASHINGTON: US President Barack Obama said on Wednesday that his administration was working with both Pakistan and Afghanistan to break down some of their old suspicions and bad habits.

==

My suggested solution to US/NATO for the Af-Pakistan problem is as follows (which I was thinking while at potty - yes, this is one of those potty thoughts)

Even as US and NATO screw up Af-Pak thoroughly and sustain low-medium intensity turmoil in other parts of Pakistan (over the next decade), we need to encourage media/intelligencia/legal and friendly communities to re-think Paki project.

After defeating fundamentalism thoroughly, we need to carve Af-Pakistan into three zones ( hey..this is favorite NATO strategy anyway).

a) Green Zone - Honestly peaceful Islamic religious segment; promise aid for these types to establish institutions that study paleontology to 7th - 10th century glorious Islam; This would be modern day Darul-Islam; Anyone wanting to gain PhDs or wanting to live/breath Islam can go here and settle; Density of this Afpak region will have to be up 3-5 times with inflows from other parts of sub-continent mainly folks from India who may have been missing purity all these years; This region will have no need for arms /ammunition/ fundamentalism and allowed else the heads of the heads of this constituency will literally roll. Every street corner will have quotes from Quran ensuring people get more than their daily dose of islam.

b) Red Zone - Honestly “liberal and democratic” segment; This area can practice and keep any religion/caste/sex/cattle/pet/education of their choice. Density of this region can remain same as is today but out-flows to the Green/White Zone to be compensated with inflows from other parts of sub-continent; quota can be established for India, Pakistan, Sri-Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal etc. This region will strive to get back to their modern day sub-continental essence in alignment with western democracies and value system.

c) White Zone - Honestly Non-Islamic segment; this area can practice any religion other than Islam; This is to give opportunity for folks who are fed up of Islamism and want to make a fresh start; Other than that folks from this region can keep any religion/caste/sex/cattle/education of their choice. Density of this region of the Af-pak will also remain same but will be made entirely of in-flows from other regions such as India, SL, Nepal, Bhutan, Burma etc. This segment/region will strive to live/study and rediscover the glorious non-Islamic past of this region.

Those wanting to threaten others, practice fundamentalism and keep arms will have already destined to Black zone that is Jahannum or should be sent there. Otherwise, people can freely move from one zone to other.

India can volunteer to administer funds for these three zones and will be a net donor towards this project. Majority Saudi and IOC funds will go to Green Zone. Majority of US/UN funds will go to Red zone. Remaining funds with additional Indian funds will go to White zone.

This way, Af-Pakistan region will have genuine opportunity to be the land of pure even when it is at not at conflict with the civilized world.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 13 May 2010 14:20

ramana wrote:Has anyone noticed that the image of a jihadi in US is now Paki whereas right after 9/11 it was Arab.

Earlier it as Muslim. Now its Paki.

In a way the poison is perceived to be Paki.

Very puranesque!

arabs will get relief,even iranians will be happy to donate whatever burden they have being a muslim nation ,to oblige to sunni wahabi duties
pakis had actually stopped american beast killing other muslim ummah by offering themselves,..
its a feat in itself ,jinnah's pakistan is very near to achieve its mission.