LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 13 May 2010 11:04

Why is this childish discussion allowed on this forum?
No one knows any of the facts, but all are ready to pass judgments.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 May 2010 11:07

^^^what he says.

sum · Post by **sum** » 13 May 2010 13:37

Finally spotted the "mythical" LCH today!!!

Sure is a beauty in the sky..

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 13 May 2010 20:45

smpratik wrote:@Mr chetak
Actually both are, its also important to know how the aircraft performs when loaded.

smpratik ji,

The power train is common to the ALH.

They know pretty much in advance how much load can be carried, which pylon can be stressed how much and at what points. The fittings are all bought out items and only a few companies make them.

There are fairly narrow limits of CG that can be allowed for flight. The loads and their positions are usually predetermined and the mix varies on the mission profile as well as threat perception.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 13 May 2010 20:49

vipins wrote:
A white chetak and a sarang team dhruv is making lots of rounds around golfcourse area for past 2-3 days.Also saw a LCA took off with loud sound some 3-4 days back.It was carrying 2 white drop tanks .That was the first time I saw a LCA in realty.

The show that is being put up for saint antony reputedly involves the Sarang team, LCAs, Sukhois and what not.

The LCH is to make a demure appearance in this mela type atmosphere.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 13 May 2010 20:51

Rahul M wrote:^^^what he says.

There are already dissenting voices in HAL, albeit muted at present.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 13 May 2010 20:58

sathyaC wrote: weight is very important as their will lot changes in the AC as it makes turns with wrights

just what on earth does this mean ?

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 13 May 2010 21:02

guy i saw a LCH fallowed by 2 ALH 2 day near HAL airport
i have my one of my friends place their right next 2 the airport compound
taking my SLR their on 21st !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 13 May 2010 21:09

Kartik wrote:
sathyaC wrote: weight is very important as their will lot changes in the AC as it makes turns with wrights
just what on earth does this mean ?

when u have extra weights on any AC they might behave different, ie turn angle , time speed Ext, AC's overall response will be different with extra weights that y they test it with weights and dumb bombs missiles

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 May 2010 21:11

Kartik wrote:
sathyaC wrote: weight is very important as their will lot changes in the AC as it makes turns with wrights
just what on earth does this mean ?

You need to learn about the history of aviation. The wrights made the first aircraft. Any new aircraft is like the first aircraft made by wrights. Please lurk on BRF a bit.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 13 May 2010 22:07

AdityaM wrote:Why is this childish discussion allowed on this forum?
No one knows any of the facts, but all are ready to pass judgments.

AdityaM ji,

Facts and information is available if one knows where to look. Only hassle is that we are discussing a classified project in an open forum.

The trait of being circumspect and prudent is best because panwallas have to be protected or they quickly cease to be panwallas. ( and friends as well )

No one will leave a traceable trail in an open forum by quoting chapter and verse. There are many members and lurkers here from HAL itself who are are privy to facts in real time.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 14 May 2010 09:02

Well the first prototype is meant to test the safety of the aircrafts, this is what we all agree to. So my point (you may also call it speculation too) is that won't it be like testing for safety when the pylons are simulating weight. I mean the behavior of the aircraft is different when loaded so it does make a sense to test the aircraft at different weights.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 May 2010 09:23

smpratik wrote:it does make a sense to test the aircraft at different weights.

It makes perfect sense, but it will be done thoroughly and in a sequence that is decided by the testers. The prototype will have a lot of dummy systems. Even the stub wings are likely to be dummies that do not have the fittings required to carry munitions. All the spaces for avionics will be filled with monitoring equipment or ballast.

It would be easy to carry a few dummy munitions to make jingos happy, but that would mean zilch. First the aircraft has to fly within a restricted weight range and prove that it can do everything required at that weight. Note that weight keeps on reducing with every minute of flight (due to burning of fuel) and the balance also changes because of movement and shifting of fuel in tanks. Once the behavior of the aircraft is proven in this respect other things will be added for further tests. Don't expect a munition to be fired for at least 2 years. Someone wake me up if the LCH fires a live round before 2012.

Sagrawal · Post by **Sagrawal** » 14 May 2010 12:49

The LCH just took off from HAL Helicopter division. It flew a circle and landed in less than 3-4 minutes before I can take any pictures. I wonder why such a small sortie..

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 14 May 2010 13:54

because it saw you trying to take pics

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 14 May 2010 17:19

smpratik wrote:Well the first prototype is meant to test the safety of the aircrafts, this is what we all agree to. So my point (you may also call it speculation too) is that won't it be like testing for safety when the pylons are simulating weight. I mean the behavior of the aircraft is different when loaded so it does make a sense to test the aircraft at different weights.

Using your logic, why not just load the aircraft internally with sandbags of different weights?

Why do you need " weights " hanging out in the air flow?

If you maintain the weight and balance limits as specified by the designers what super duper thing are you going to achieve by testing aircraft at different weights?

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 14 May 2010 19:00

@Mr Shiv and Mr Chetak
I got it confirmed from my source who is actually on the LCH project and he said that the dummies are for simulating aerodynamics and weight but the weight is more important because they have simulated the aerodynamics in the WT.

@Mr Shiv
Exactly right, extensive simulation will take place later on. I dont expect the LCH ZP 4601 to fire missiles, that will take place from the 2nd prototypes onwards a good 1.5-2years from now.

@All
First official flight postponed to 23rd, check out my blog for more:
http://angle-of-attack.blogspot.com/201 ... ed-to.html

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 14 May 2010 21:22

smpratik wrote: the dummies are for simulating aerodynamics and weight

What dummies?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 14 May 2010 21:43

sathyaC wrote: when u have extra weights on any AC they might behave different, ie turn angle , time speed Ext, AC's overall response will be different with extra weights that y they test it with weights and dumb bombs missiles

with all due respect, please lurk around a bit and see what the level of discussions on this forum are..just how dumb do you think the rest of BRFites are ? have you seen any of our other discussions that made you think that you need to inform people that adding weight will make an object behave differently ? And in the process making up terms like "time speed Ext" ?

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 14 May 2010 22:04

Kartik wrote:
sathyaC wrote: when u have extra weights on any AC they might behave different, ie turn angle , time speed Ext, AC's overall response will be different with extra weights that y they test it with weights and dumb bombs missiles
with all due respect, please lurk around a bit and see what the level of discussions on this forum are..just how dumb do you think the rest of BRFites are ? have you seen any of our other discussions that made you think that you need to inform people that adding weight will make an object behave differently ? And in the process making up terms like "time speed Ext" ?

with all due respect I was lurking in BR from 2005 and BRF 2006 registered only now when i thought i can make some kind of contribution, i do know the level of discussions over hear, i was just replying to a earlier post that's it......
it not time speed, but time and speed, it was mistake on my end

i think it makes scenes now

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 15 May 2010 08:34

shiv wrote:
smpratik wrote: the dummies are for simulating aerodynamics and weight
What dummies?

Missiles attached to the pylons, don't know the technical term for it.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 15 May 2010 09:06

smpratik wrote:
smpratik wrote: the dummies are for simulating aerodynamics and weight
shiv asked: "What dummies?"

smpratik wrote: Missiles attached to the pylons, don't know the technical term for it.

That is exactly the point I was trying to make sir when you opted to misunderstand. Could you point me to any url or photograph that says the LCH is carrying real or dummy munitions on its wings? The LCH prototype carries no missile or munitions dummies on its wings. So where the question of weight or aerodynamics of dummies on pylons? It is carrying an obvious dummy targeting pod in its nose as well as an authentic looking gun.

In a normal helicopter the weight in the cabin can be varied. This would be limited in the LCH for lack of cabin space. The weights of avionics are simulated by ballast or by telemetry or monitoring equipment. I already said that.

So what exactly are you talking about?

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 15 May 2010 20:05

shiv wrote:
That is exactly the point I was trying to make sir when you opted to misunderstand. Could you point me to any url or photograph that says the LCH is carrying real or dummy munitions on its wings? The LCH prototype carries no missile or munitions dummies on its wings. So where the question of weight or aerodynamics of dummies on pylons? It is carrying an obvious dummy targeting pod in its nose as well as an authentic looking gun.

In a normal helicopter the weight in the cabin can be varied. This would be limited in the LCH for lack of cabin space. The weights of avionics are simulated by ballast or by telemetry or monitoring equipment. I already said that.

So what exactly are you talking about?

Shiv Sir, I am talking about missiles payload simulation. I have seen images of LCH with dummy missiles attached to its pylons however I am not allowed to post those images on the web if it was than I would have done it long time back on my blog. But I am not sure if its flying with them or not. Saw them attached to the pylons and the aircraft was stationery on the ground.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 May 2010 06:36

smpratik wrote: Shiv Sir, I am talking about missiles payload simulation. I have seen images of LCH with dummy missiles attached to its pylons however I am not allowed to post those images on the web if it was than I would have done it long time back on my blog. But I am not sure if its flying with them or not. Saw them attached to the pylons and the aircraft was stationery on the ground.

I have actually photographed LCH models in Aero India with dummy munitions - but none of the photographs of the flying LCH have shown munitions and I saw none on the two occasions I saw the LCH being test flown over the golf course. For the last 48 years no aircraft has flown overhead when I am outdoors without stopping me in my tracks and making me search for the aircraft in the sky. I am always on the lookout for aircraft type and any unusual detail.

What I am writing here may or may not apply to you personally, but it is in reference to the various posts that have asked for a quick appearance of an LCH with weapons. I have nothing against the idea of the LCH being test flown with dummy munitions or dummy weights. But no matter how much you simulate an aircraft you need to fly it before you can confirm that its actual behavior matches (or differs from ) its predicted behavior from computer simulations. That means any aircraft, including the LCH needs to be test flown under all design conditions of weight and payload.

But what typically happens is that when an aircraft is first test flown it is not flown with every payload and every feature that it is supposed to have. The prototype is often an extremely "dumbed down" machine that will never be anywhere near the final configuration. The difference between an aircraft and an armed Maruti Gypsy is that the aircraft has the requirement of being able to fly first with or without payload. Since payloads themselves and testing of payloads is both complex and extensive, it makes sense to NOT complicate the issue by testing initially with no significant payload other than any items that are integral to the designed aerodynamic characteristics.

If you must test an aircraft with a payload and without a payload. It makes sense to test it without the payload first for a simple "God forbid" reason. If you fly a complex and non dumbed down prototype first and an accident or failure occurs, the analysis of that failure and corrective measures are much more difficult if the aircraft is more complex. That means if you are testing an aircraft with a payload under its wings and some failure occurs (God forbid) you will not know whether the failure occurred because of some problem with the payload or because of a problem unrelated to the payload. This unnecessary complexity can be avoided by simply not adding any extra complexity and testing the aircraft thoroughly in its dumbed down prototype format and when that is proven, you upgrade by increasing weight or payload and repeat all the tests you did with the dumbed down bird and compare the results of the two as well as comparing with the expected results from simulation.

In short this takes time.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 16 May 2010 11:01

@Mr Shiv
What you are talking makes perfect sense and I am not saying that your logic is incorrect. I am saying what I have been told and what I have seen. I live in Suburban Mumbai you don't find that many thing flying over head here, I haven't even seen the LCH for real either. But my source has shown me a image of LCH with weapons on it. I had a chat with him just a few minutes ago and he confirmed to me that the LCH has flown with its full load of 2 MBDA Mistral missiles, Nexter turret gun, 19 FZ rockets, RWR,LWR and MWR. It going to do the same on 23rd too(You can go and see it with your own eyes, I wish i could). Plus these weapons aren't dummies either(which I thought before), they are real but the LCH can fire it because the fuses are removed. LCH can just jettison them.

IMO they are starting the testing with combat configuration because the basic configurations is already tested and passed on the Dhruv. This means that they will receive the IOC and FOC earlier than we estimated.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 16 May 2010 11:30

smpratik wrote:@Mr Shiv
What you are talking makes perfect sense and I am not saying that your logic is incorrect. I am saying what I have been told and what I have seen. I live in Suburban Mumbai you don't find that many thing flying over head here, I haven't even seen the LCH for real either. But my source has shown me a image of LCH with weapons on it. I had a chat with him just a few minutes ago and he confirmed to me that the LCH has flown with its full load of 2 MBDA Mistral missiles, Nexter turret gun, 19 FZ rockets, RWR,LWR and MWR. It going to do the same on 23rd too(You can go and see it with your own eyes, I wish i could). Plus these weapons aren't dummies either(which I thought before), they are real but the LCH can fire it because the fuses are removed. LCH can just jettison them.

IMO they are starting the testing with combat configuration because the basic configurations is already tested and passed on the Dhruv. This means that they will receive the IOC and FOC earlier than we estimated.

Fair enough - but looking at pictures of this prototype it appears to me that they have not even fitted the thick bulletproof glass on the cockpit that I would expect in a combat helicopter - I am expecting that will change. And all those munitions are of no use if the nose mounted designator is a dummy which it is. And if a real designator is fitted in the nose they would have to slave it to cockpit electronics and helmet mounted sights, which cannot be done unless you replace the dummy in the nose with the real thing. So to me it appears that there is a long way to go.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 16 May 2010 11:42

No doubt we have to go a way, the first prototype is barely a month old. Lets wait till 23rd because by than I suppose more info will come out.

From the images, the cockpit of LCH looks complete and neat with multiple MFD's.

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 May 2010 14:25

smpratik wrote:@Mr Shiv
What you are talking makes perfect sense and I am not saying that your logic is incorrect. I am saying what I have been told and what I have seen. I live in Suburban Mumbai you don't find that many thing flying over head here, I haven't even seen the LCH for real either. But my source has shown me a image of LCH with weapons on it. I had a chat with him just a few minutes ago and he confirmed to me that the LCH has flown with its full load of 2 MBDA Mistral missiles, Nexter turret gun, 19 FZ rockets, RWR,LWR and MWR. It going to do the same on 23rd too(You can go and see it with your own eyes, I wish i could). Plus these weapons aren't dummies either(which I thought before), they are real but the LCH can fire it because the fuses are removed. LCH can just jettison them.

IMO they are starting the testing with combat configuration because the basic configurations is already tested and passed on the Dhruv. This means that they will receive the IOC and FOC earlier than we estimated.

^^^ Amazing news if the Chaiwallah was not pulling your leg..

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 17 May 2010 11:25

sum wrote:
smpratik wrote:@Mr Shiv
What you are talking makes perfect sense and I am not saying that your logic is incorrect. I am saying what I have been told and what I have seen. I live in Suburban Mumbai you don't find that many thing flying over head here, I haven't even seen the LCH for real either. But my source has shown me a image of LCH with weapons on it. I had a chat with him just a few minutes ago and he confirmed to me that the LCH has flown with its full load of 2 MBDA Mistral missiles, Nexter turret gun, 19 FZ rockets, RWR,LWR and MWR. It going to do the same on 23rd too(You can go and see it with your own eyes, I wish i could). Plus these weapons aren't dummies either(which I thought before), they are real but the LCH can fire it because the fuses are removed. LCH can just jettison them.

IMO they are starting the testing with combat configuration because the basic configurations is already tested and passed on the Dhruv. This means that they will receive the IOC and FOC earlier than we estimated.
^^^ Amazing news if the Chaiwallah was not pulling your leg..

it is true that the LCH is flying with Nexter turret gun and other Munitions, more over it was followed by ALH but it was flying quite far behind LCH, i saw it myself .

Only a 15ft Rd that divides my office and the HAL airport compound, more over my office is on the second floor much higher than the airport compound so i have a birds eye view of the airport

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 May 2010 11:30

LCH was in the air again a few mins back - over the varthur lake area and flying towards HAL from east.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 17 May 2010 11:39

Saw that for the first time in close. Since I was driving couldnt take snaps

I was late to office so this I could see it clearly. It seems there is always a white helicopter observing the LCH flight

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 May 2010 11:48

there a "lil bird" type white heli , with a very tall rotor mast for long in HAL now. not sure if HAL owns or it some pvt helicopter school.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 17 May 2010 11:56

Singha wrote:there a "lil bird" type white heli , with a very tall rotor mast for long in HAL now. not sure if HAL owns or it some pvt helicopter school.

It is owned by HAL - rotary wing flying academy (was).. Now called HATSOFF IIRC.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 17 May 2010 11:56

Whatever happened to the video someone promised?

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 17 May 2010 12:10

Neela wrote:Whatever happened to the video someone promised?

Burried for now till they release an official video

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 17 May 2010 12:37

At least please post some pictures here, or share it on email.

Vikram W · Post by **Vikram W** » 17 May 2010 13:36

shiv wrote:
smpratik wrote:@Mr Shiv
What you are talking makes perfect sense and I am not saying that your logic is incorrect. I am saying what I have been told and what I have seen. I live in Suburban Mumbai you don't find that many thing flying over head here, I haven't even seen the LCH for real either. But my source has shown me a image of LCH with weapons on it. I had a chat with him just a few minutes ago and he confirmed to me that the LCH has flown with its full load of 2 MBDA Mistral missiles, Nexter turret gun, 19 FZ rockets, RWR,LWR and MWR. It going to do the same on 23rd too(You can go and see it with your own eyes, I wish i could). Plus these weapons aren't dummies either(which I thought before), they are real but the LCH can fire it because the fuses are removed. LCH can just jettison them.

IMO they are starting the testing with combat configuration because the basic configurations is already tested and passed on the Dhruv. This means that they will receive the IOC and FOC earlier than we estimated.
Fair enough - but looking at pictures of this prototype it appears to me that they have not even fitted the thick bulletproof glass on the cockpit that I would expect in a combat helicopter - I am expecting that will change. And all those munitions are of no use if the nose mounted designator is a dummy which it is. And if a real designator is fitted in the nose they would have to slave it to cockpit electronics and helmet mounted sights, which cannot be done unless you replace the dummy in the nose with the real thing. So to me it appears that there is a long way to go.

I observed a cobra helicopter here in boston and went up to the crew to ask them if the cockpit glass was light artillary proof. To my surprise , I was told that it was just an acrylic glass and not bullet proof. Instead they have put some armor around the pilots seat and face , which looked to me like a smarter solution to keep the weight down.

sum · Post by **sum** » 18 May 2010 15:39

LCH is putting up a Aero-India like show today....really lucky that got a ringside view.

Truely a Beautiful and super agile bird.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 18 May 2010 15:41

sum wrote:LCH is putting up a Aero-India like show today....really lucky that got a ringside view.

Truely a Beautiful and super agile bird.

Hope your cameras got a good lens

nishu · Post by **nishu** » 18 May 2010 15:57

guys check this out its so cool http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/8426 ... dongro.jpg