Indian Military Aviation

[Pratik_S]

22 haan?
Which ones are in the race?

AH-64D Apache Longbow
Eurocopter Tiger
Agusta A129 Mangusta
Mi-28 Havoc
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 154013.cms

[shiv]

More ammo presents you with more time in battlefield meaning more time on station. That directly translate to more targets of opportunity.

Who is going to provide the extra fuel to carry a heavier weight for a longer time?

Also, why are you assuming that if you have less ammo pilots are willing to take risk and go into close range, at a risk of being hit, just because they can make accurate fire with less ammo?

Kindly do not attribute statements to me that I have not made. I only said it is training that counts. Having more ammo is useless if training does not allow that extra ammo to be put to good use. Here is what you wrote:

what relation does training has with ammunition on a chopper

Don't know about yanks,

Allow me tell you. In Vietnam they were beefier and had huge food requirements. The Viet Cong were thin and wiry (like the Japanese in WW2) and needed far fewer rations. But this is OT

War is never fair. Why fight in a way to make it easy for enemy? or do you think we learned this from US as well ?

If you don't want to make it easy for an enemy, you need to manage with what you have got rather than copying what the US has. Sorry you if feel touchy about that, but didn't you recommend that the helo should have lots of ammo and that pilot training is not important. Do you believe this will make things difficult for an enemy? I can't see how.

I am in disagreement with your assertion that lots of ammunition is important but that pilot training is not important.

[ShauryaT]

I will try to state in my own way what Shiv might be saying, he can pitch in to correct.

If you take his Vietnam example, what he is saying is the fact that in Vietnam the Americans lost about 50,000 personnel to the 7 figures? Vietnamese and Cambodians is moot, because at the end of the day, the Vietnamese achieved their objective at a cost, which was acceptable to them.

We can use Afghanistan or Iraq War I as another example, where the cost to achieve the goals set by its leaders, is acceptable and hence they develop strategies and tactics to compensate for the huge technological advantage that King Khan may enjoy.

So, instead of hankering for more powerful toys as King Khan has, live with what you have and develop your own toys, as per your own capabilities and requirements. These requirements do not have to be the same as those of King Khan.

Maybe the point is OT.

[vardhank]

22 haan?
Which ones are in the race?

AH-64D Apache Longbow
Eurocopter Tiger
Agusta A129 Mangusta
Mi-28 Havoc
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 154013.cms

Thanks mate.
Is the deal tied to the heavy-lift chopper one? or are they separate? Also (sorry, wish I'd found this earlier), hasn't Eurocopter withdrawn from the competition? Shame if it has - I believe the Tiger's very good.

[Sid]

-------
Who is going to provide the extra fuel to carry a heavier weight for a longer time?

Well now you are asking the right question Well in that case you design an aircraft which can carry such loads for longer periods of time.

If you don't want to make it easy for an enemy, you need to manage with what you have got rather than copying what the US has. Sorry you if feel touchy about that, but didn't you recommend that the helo should have lots of ammo and that pilot training is not important. Do you believe this will make things difficult for an enemy? I can't see how.
-------------
I am in disagreement with your assertion that lots of ammunition is important but that pilot training is not important.

saaarji, nowhere I have said pilot training is not important. On the contrary, I am trying to imply that less ammo cannot be compensated by better training of pilots.

Also, if you read about Ka-50/52 here is what it says

The Ka-50 is armed with a 2A42 quick-firing 30mm gun, which has an unrestricted azimuth and elevation range mounting for use against airborne or ground targets. The gun is equipped with 460 rounds of ammunition: two types being carried, high-fragmentation and explosive incendiary rounds and armour-piercing rounds. The pilot selects the type of ammunition in flight. The weight of the ammunition is 0.39kg each round, the muzzle velocity is 980m/s and the range is up to 4km. The gun provides an angular firing accuracy of two to 4mrad.

For such high caliber one can surely say such numbers are enough but look at its accuracy. With proliferation of SAM and other anti-aircraft weapons any pilot will try to use weapons from as far as possible (usually at max ranges) using terrain masking.

[shiv]

I am trying to imply that less ammo cannot be compensated by better training of pilots.

We are in agreement, but you have only evaded what I have been saying by switching the focus. More ammo is not compensation for poor training. Or poor tactics for that matter.

For such high caliber one can surely say such numbers are enough but look at its accuracy. With proliferation of SAM and other anti-aircraft weapons any pilot will try to use weapons from as far as possible (usually at max ranges) using terrain masking.

I will say what I have said again but I am not hopeful that you will read it, since you have not bothered to read my posts. However others might read what I type.

Even if a guy has 10,000 rounds only good training and Allah can stop him from firing off all 10,000 rounds from 'as far as possible (usually at max ranges)".

Your assertion "any pilot will try to use weapons from as far as possible (usually at max ranges)" is complete rubbish. How do you know that "any pilot" would do that? Only a pilot with poor training/morale/motivation would fire from as far as possible (usually at max ranges) and make it easy for the enemy (and safe for himself). If he is far enough even the curvature of the earth can protect him by terrain masking.

[shukla]

IAF asks AAI to relocate ILS

After months of discord over the commissioning of the Instrumentation Landing System, worth Rs 2 crore, the two agencies manning the airport are likely to face-off over another issue - the runway expansion by IAF.

Informed sources said the IAF is contemplating expansion of the runway on both sides, much to the annoyance of the AAI, which has described the move as “unwanted.” In a letter to Srinagar-based AAI director, the IAF commanding officer has sought “relocation” of the AAI-installed ILS Azimuth Antenna as the IAF was contemplating extension work on the runway by 300 meters on both sides, named as A-31 and A-13.

Sources said if the ILS were relocated, the AAI would run into losses as it has installed the equipment recently. “How can it be relocated? The IAF didn’t raise the issue when the AAI installed the ILS in November 2009. The AAI has spent lakhs of rupees on putting in place the necessary infrastructure for the ILS. The AAI has paid over Rs 20 lakh as the entry tax for ILS. So all that money is gone if it is relocated,” they said. The IAF, sources said, is seeking ILS relocation despite the fact that the airlines have expressed serious concern over the delay in its ommissioning.

“We can lose the ILS in case its commissioning is delayed anymore. Such equipments cannot be sought daily. And if it is not made functional, the authorities can seek its installation at some other airport where it may be needed,” they said.

[Pratik_S]

Generation 2.0: Akash Mk-2
IAF to receive Ground Based BrahMos-II Missiles by 2012

[Austin]

PHOTOS: More From India's Light Copter Competition Trials

[Bharadwaj]

PHOTOS: More From India's Light Copter Competition Trials

The kamov looks like a seriously rugged piece of kit-probably costs less than the Fennec too.

[Austin]

^^^ True but behold it may not win

[Kartik]

Some info on the Light Recon Surveillance Heli (RSH) competition going on. The info is from AW&ST.

Navy is in the market for 50 light utility helis, and the Coast Guard is looking for 30 platforms, a mix of medium and light models. RFIs on the programs were issued this month although in the case of the CG, this is the second effort to jump-start the procurement.

Eurocopter aims to leverage its experience with the trials from the last round, where it was disqualified due to not having sent the military variant.

Eurocopter briefings assert that the Fennec is the “only military certified and proven helicopter in its class.” The briefing doc contends that the Ka-226T remains a “prototype aircraft without military certification”, while the Agusta Westland AW119 is a civil design with no “military customer references”. (*that might explain why it was supposedly not invited for second round of flight trials per some other reports in the press)

Eurocopter also states that neither of its two competitors is in a position to meet the required delivery schedule: The request specifies that deliveries must begin 12 months from contract signature. With the bulk of the selected type to be built in-country, Eurocopter is also flagging its previous ties with HAL on the Alouette II and III production.

Responding to the EC claims, AW official said “That’s their opinion. At the end of the day, we have to demonstrate our products through a certain course and we intend to either meet or exceed all expectations.”

MoD sources say that there have been certain hiccups during technical and flight evaluations- flaws that could delay the process or in a worst case scenario, translate into yet another re-tender.

A naval variant of the Fennec is also a likely candidate for the IN project to replace the Alouette III/Chetak.

CG aims to issue the RFP by September 14. Looking to procure 14 twin-engine shore based helis for maritime surveillance, interdiction and SAR alongwith 16 light helos to cover the same tasks in the ship-borne role.

For the twin-engine requirement, Eurocopter is pitching the AS-565 Panther while Sikorsky has been offering alternatives, including the S-76.

The Indian Multi-role Helicopter remains a further prize, although this program envisions the ability to manufacture the selected type in country from the outset. Eurocopter and Agusta Westland are also rivals for this program, with Russia’s Kazan a contender too.

[Ashish J]

IAF to get first batch of Mi-17 helicopters by year-end
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/latest-n ... ar-end-362

New Delhi, May 20: India will receive the first of 80 Mi-17 transport helicopters from Russia by the end of this year, augmenting Air Force's capability to carry out missions in high-altitude areas and relief
operations. "The first batch of choppers will arrive here from Russia by the end of this
year and the remaining are likely to be inducted in phased manner in next four years," IAF officials told PTI here. In 2008, India had signed a deal with Russia to supply 80 Mi-17s to replace and augment its existing fleet of around 150 Mi-8 and Mi-17 medium-lift choppers, which have over five tonne load carrying capability and are also used to ferry troops and VIPs. The Air Force had felt the need of inducting more medium-lift choppers after a spate of natural disasters following the tsunami in December, 2004 and the heavy snowfall in Kashmir in 2005. Along with the induction of the new choppers, the IAF is also planning to upgrade over 50 choppers from its existing fleet of Mi-8s and Mi-17s. "This will enhance the life of these Russian-origin choppers by at least another ten years," they said. In the mountainous areas, Mi-17s have been used to ferry troops and carry loads up to heights of 18,000 feet along the Line of Control. The Mi-17s are deployed for tasks like ferrying troops, airdropping supplies, evacuating casualties, search and rescue, and ferrying VIPs. It can carry 15 fully equipped troops and some of these choppers have been equipped with 57 mm rocket pods and machine guns

My first post after a long time..

[shukla]

Light Helicopter Project Faces Uncertain Future

The Indian Defence Ministry is expected to yet again cancel the tender for acquiring 197 reconnaissance and surveillance helicopters for the Indian Army, due to certain inconsistencies in the recent trials. Although the cancellation of the tender for 197 helicopters is not confirmed, it seems the Indian Defence Ministry has noted certain shortcomings in the trials of the choppers.

The helicopter model offered by Eurocopter was unable to perform high altitude hover-out-of-ground-effect (HOGE).

The problem with ROE’s Kamov was that the engine to be fitted on Kamov 226T will be Arrius 2G1 which is not yet certified.

While Agusta Westland was facing serious problems due to some misunderstanding over some classification issue with the Defence Ministry.

And Agusta's issue is "misunderstanding over classification??" with MOD???? Boy! I so pray that this report is wrong... Indian Army can't afford another gazillion years....... Frustration city.....

[parshuram]

Not again .. I see goin it M777 way now FMS for bell copters

[Pratik_S]

If the deal goes down than it could be a blessing in disguise. LOH can win from this turn of events.

[shukla]

If the deal goes down than it could be a blessing in disguise. LOH can win from this turn of events.

The requirement is immediate or long overdue.. At least with this deal we are looking at 2yr-ish time frame (optimistically).. with the latter-god knows its going to be..

[Pratik_S]

If the deal goes down than it could be a blessing in disguise. LOH can win from this turn of events.

The requirement is immediate or long overdue.. At least with this deal we are looking at 2yr-ish time frame (optimistically).. with the latter-god knows its going to be..

Well I tend to be more optimistic and like I said before, HAL and other labs involved have done a phenomenal job in preparing the LCH so far in such a short time. If the deal goes off than it will obviously take 5yr-ish for the new deal to workout. So IMVHO if we can increase funding for LOH than it can be flying in 3* years time and in another 2* years we might see it with the IA and IAF.

[Kartik]

If the deal goes down than it could be a blessing in disguise. LOH can win from this turn of events.

Well I tend to be more optimistic and like I said before, HAL and other labs involved have done a phenomenal job in preparing the LCH so far in such a short time. If the deal goes off than it will obviously take 5yr-ish for the new deal to workout. So IMVHO if we can increase funding for LOH than it can be flying in 3* years time and in another 2* years we might see it with the IA and IAF.

I do not think that the HAL LOH design is that far along as to fit into the timelines that the IAF and IA are looking at in the short run- i.e. 1 year from date of contract signature which might be (if all goes well) a year or a year and half away..that means entry into service in 2.5 years as per the IAF requirements. the plan was always to induct the LOH into the IAF and IA after the foreign helo was fully delivered, so that would've given HAL at least 4-5 years extra (total 2.5+5 years) to perfect the LOH so it could start entering service.

IMO, the LOH actually will take quite a bit of work to get into service. a lighter single engined LOH design will need some significant changes as compared to how much was changed from the ALH to the LCH (for which much of the ALH systems, engine, transmission, gearbox were common). Ok, less dramatic OML changes maybe (although dimensions won't match) and maybe that has been finalised since they've shown some CAD models, but it will require a complete re-design of internal architecture, wiring, piping, to fit the smaller airframe and due to the single engine. Again, I'm just guessing that all this while, the Rotary Design Bureau in HAL has been working mostly on getting the LCH roll-out and resolving issues as they get the first prototype out and flying.

LOH could use the Shakti engine, but will definitely require a new transmission and gearbox and maybe even blades will need redesign. After all that is done and the LOH prototypes roll out, they'll still need to finish testing, certification and user trials, it will be another 2 years at least. the IAF may ask for some Cheetal upgrades to its Cheetahs to offset the delays' immediate effects but I don't suppose that the entire deal will go to the LOH.

Chetakji may be able to give more clarity on this though.

[Pratik_S]

I do not think that the HAL LOH design is that far along as to fit into the timelines that the IAF and IA are looking at in the short run- i.e. 1 year from date of contract signature which might be (if all goes well) a year or a year and half away..that means entry into service in 2.5 years as per the IAF requirements. the plan was always to induct the LOH into the IAF and IA after the foreign helo was fully delivered, so that would've given HAL at least 4-5 years extra (total 2.5+5 years) to perfect the LOH so it could start entering service.

IMO, the LOH actually will take quite a bit of work to get into service. a lighter single engined LOH design will need some significant changes as compared to how much was changed from the ALH to the LCH (for which much of the ALH systems, engine, transmission, gearbox were common). Ok, less dramatic OML changes maybe (although dimensions won't match) and maybe that has been finalised since they've shown some CAD models, but it will require a complete re-design of internal architecture, wiring, piping, to fit the smaller airframe and due to the single engine. Again, I'm just guessing that all this while, the Rotary Design Bureau in HAL has been working mostly on getting the LCH roll-out and resolving issues as they get the first prototype out and flying.

LOH could use the Shakti engine, but will definitely require a new transmission and gearbox and maybe even blades will need redesign. After all that is done and the LOH prototypes roll out, they'll still need to finish testing, certification and user trials, it will be another 2 years at least. the IAF may ask for some Cheetal upgrades to its Cheetahs to offset the delays' immediate effects but I don't suppose that the entire deal will go to the LOH.

Chetakji may be able to give more clarity on this though.

I am not saying that LOH will be very easy to complete, apart from the engine every thing else would need to be designed from scratch. But these guys now have experience and I am in contact with a few people related to Rotary Design Bureau and they certainly seem to be very motivated people.

What I am saying is that if the current deal goes off than to float a new tender, FET, paper works, Bureaucracy will consume almost the same time which will be required our our HAL guys to design,build and perfect the LOH. So "If" deal goes off than MoD should focus on LOH, provide more funds and forget about redoing the same thing 3rd time. Lets face it IA, IN and IAF are no getting anything new for 3-4 years "IF" the deal goes off.

[vic]

Delay will simply lead to more ALH orders! And orders for upgraded Cheetal or Chetan

[shukla]

Well I tend to be more optimistic

Its strange how that word 'optimism' would mean different things to different ppl.. for me, in this instance optimism would mean that these trials come through and the IA gets the best toy it long deserves.. These trials not working out (in favour of HAL or for whatever other reason) would be rather pessimistic to me.. there you go.. One mans optimism other mans pessimism

[Indranil]

But wouldn't the development/experience/upgrade of cheetal's come in handy for the LOH!

Actually when I read of a possible re-tender, my first reaction was the same as prateek's -> "HAL seize the opportunity". A heartfelt wish for HAL shot straight through my mind, "HAL, just convince those guys that they can wait for 2-3 more years and you can come up with a better,cheaper, indigenous copter. Come on guys. All throughout you have worked with no end, no order in sight, and have got only banter at the end, no matter how good a product you built and how many obstacles you scaled. And here you have a confirmed big order in sight. You can safely invest, because you know you can easily do it. Lobby, do whatever you want, don't let this opportunity go by"!

I know it is just a wish of a nationalist jingo, but still a wish!

P.S. This post is totally deletable and I leave it at the moderator's mercy. I controlled it for quite some time. Just couldn't hold it back any longer

[Singha]

limitations on engg resources could be felt as HAL is working on Dhruv-upg, WSI-Dhruv and LCH at same time. LOH being relatively cheap, its better to focus on these three more expensive products and then move on to a replacement for the Mi17 in collab with eurocopter or augusta.

[Sagrawal]

some aircraft is making airshow like moves over Bangalore sky. Did anyone see it? Please tell me which plane is it? I definitely heard LCA making noise however didn't see it making to the skies. Damm these clouds...

[Bharadwaj]

I wonder why the eurocopter bird failed on the hover out of ground effect. The only difference from last time is that the Fennec is the military variant. The kamov certification is a formality and should not be grounds for trouble. Would be nice if a altitude/payload chart of the dhruv was available...It could be a good stop gap solution.

[Singha]

well maybe the fennec has never been tested HOGE in S.america - the only other place with bases like Lehish.

[Pratik_S]

Its strange how that word 'optimism' would mean different things to different ppl.. for me, in this instance optimism would mean that these trials come through and the IA gets the best toy it long deserves.. These trials not working out (in favour of HAL or for whatever other reason) would be rather pessimistic to me.. there you go.. One mans optimism other mans pessimism

Well I will agree that optimistic would not be a accurate term to be used here. Basically I meant I am a Indigenous jingo. I think HAL can deliver top quality toys and trust me our boys in uniform have got the best toys almost every time. Our desi companies also have delivered top quality arms almost every time. If tomorrow we want to be a superpower than today we will have to accept delays and stuff. Think long terms than I think you will too support my thought .

[Pratik_S]

limitations on engg resources could be felt as HAL is working on Dhruv-upg, WSI-Dhruv and LCH at same time. LOH being relatively cheap, its better to focus on these three more expensive products and then move on to a replacement for the Mi17 in collab with eurocopter or augusta.

I think other wise, forget not HAL has already taken up the LOH project so they surely have plans for it. Dhruv-upgradation and WSI are nearing completion, atleast WSI is. So if the funding for it is improved than may be HAL can shorten its pre-production testing by producing more prototypes and by investing heavily in the production line they can churn out higher units per year.

[Kartik]

Found this link on Keypub forum to another forum where some poster posted some beautiful pics of the LUSH Sea Harriers in Dabolim, Goa.

LUSH Sea Harriers

enjoy them !

[Prasad]

From above link -

"they live at Arakkonam over by Calcutta"

I think that is next in line to our Bangalore, Kerala designation

[shukla]

X-post

India Embraces Defense Technology Road Map

The document glosses over New Delhi’s well-known requirement for fixed-wing aircraft (fighters and tactical and heavy-lift), while emphasizing the critical technologies the air force wants as part of its rotary-wing procurements.

The air force could sign deals for the acquisition of 150 helicopters in the next four years. Arguing that Indian airpower will progressively focus on air dominance and effects-based operations—until recently a vocabulary associated with the U.S. Air Force and Europe’s main air forces—the document underscores the need for day/night standoff strike, unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV) and unmanned combat air vehicles (UCAV) and an increased number of force-multiplier platforms such as airborne early warning (AEW) and tanker aircraft. The air force is also in the process of developing the capabilities provided by the A-50 Phalcon AEW aircraft, along with its Ilyushin Il-78 tankers.

the document also spells out the air force’s far-reaching surveillance and target-acquisition capabilities, including long-range battlefield surveillance, remote sensor systems and the ability to track cruise missiles from airborne platforms.

Improved air defenses are identified as a near-to-medium-term requirement, including an overhaul of India’s air defense ground environment. The military is looking to replace its obsolescent Soviet-era surface-to-air missile systems through programs with Israeli and European industry. The air force will look to acquire air defense weapons “from ground-based mobile platforms capable of engaging all kinds of projectiles-—rockets, mortar/ artillery, UAVs, missiles, fighter aircraft, helicopters, precision guided munitions and other stand off armament.”

[shukla]

An update on LUH competition and other helicopter purchases lined up..

New Delhi Rotary Ambitions Continue To Climb

[shukla]

IAF Sukhoi Fleet to be Equipped with Homemade Nirbhay Missiles

India’s ‘Nirbhay’ cruise missile is slated to be incorporated in the Suhkoi Su-30MKI Flanker strike aircraft, increasing the nuclear weapon capability of the Indian Air Force (IAF) beyond that of free-fall weapons only. The ‘Nirbhay’ will be the third indigenous weapon to equip the Su-30MKI besides the ‘Brahmos’ supersonic cruise missile and the ‘Astra’ medium-range air-to-air missile. The induction of the ‘Nirbhay’ cruise missile to the Suu-MKI Flanker aircraft will give the decisive edge the IAF needs in terms of long-range and strategic strike capability.

That would be a huge achievement...

[shiv]

A 1000 km range CM hanging from a Sukhoi puts all sorts of interesting targets within reach.

[karan_mc]

Nirbhay is mainly for Land based cruise missile its still a decade away from been inducted into air force has ALCM , if we keep BrahMos has the example for Nirbhay , Pj-10 aka BrahMos was first tested in 2001 and air launched Brahmos is still no where in sight ,air force should not be in hurry , Nirbhay was totally born due to Indian army requirement not air force . and is the Tubular Design of Nirbhay ideal for ALCM ? if you see Raad or German or British ALCM they have design similar to small uav ,some what i don't think it is ideal design for ALCM

[Pratik_S]

Nirbhay is mainly for Land based cruise missile its still a decade away from been inducted into air force has ALCM , if we keep BrahMos has the example for Nirbhay , Pj-10 aka BrahMos was first tested in 2001 and air launched Brahmos is still no where in sight ,air force should not be in hurry , Nirbhay was totally born due to Indian army requirement not air force . and is the Tubular Design of Nirbhay ideal for ALCM ? if you see Raad or German or British ALCM they have design similar to small uav ,some what i don't think it is ideal design for ALCM

The design of the Nirbhay-Air many be different from Land and naval version. The performance characteristics and the design of the Air version of Brahmos is also different from naval and land based versions. I guess the same 40 Su-30MKI's which will be equipped to carry Brahmos will carry Nirbhay.

I think the same, the Nirbhay is far from completion, the army will probably get it by 2016-17 so the Air Force will certainly have to wait longer. I suppose the IAF is not in a hurry.

[karan_mc]

Nirbhay is ideal for Army and Navy but some what doesn't fit IAF's role , if Air force requires ALCM then there should be different development for ALCM rather then simply sticking a conventional cruise missile under belly of sukhoi , 1000km is a over kill new ALCM should have 500 to 600 km range , and not a Tubular Design

[Jaeger]

^^Fascinating. What else did the JASSM brochure say?

Why is 1000km overkill, especially when we face AEW-supported Su-30s armed with R-77s and SD-10s, S-300s & derivatives with 150km+ ranges as well as an immense number of Tor and Crotale derivatives providing SR-SAM cover?

[Mihir.D]

From a poster on India-Forums Nirbhay will be available in MK1 and MK2 mods. Mk1 will be the tactical missile and will equip all present and future IAF fighters including MRCA and FGFA. It will have a range of 1200 KMs. The MK2 will be more of a strategic weapon with 2500KM range.

Now the point to ponder upon is the tactical applications/targets of a 1200KM missile and how Brahmos-2 and Nirbhay MK1 can be used in synch !!