Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 25 May 2010 18:56

On the Merkava Topic : These are IDF Stats on how their tanks faired

The IDF employed several hundred tanks in combat. According to official reports, about ten percent were hit by various threats. Less than half of the hits penetrated. In overall assessment, the potential risk to crewmen would have been much higher, if the tank would be of a conventional design. A colonel commanding an armored brigade, which bore the brunt of battle, mentioned in an interview that during the war that hundreds of antitank missiles were fired on his unit and in total only 18 tanks were seriously damaged. Of those, missiles actually penetrated only five or six vehicles and according to statistics, only two tanks were totally destroyed, however, both by super-heavy IED charges.

http://defense-update.com/analysis/lebanon_war_3.htm

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 25 May 2010 20:27

I recall reading about armor packages for the Leopard that offer some degree of protection from top attack missiles and rockets. I'm hoping that research in this area picks up in India. Why is the Merkava such an issue? It actually did quite well in 2006.

A Sharma · Post by **A Sharma** » 27 May 2010 03:52

DRDO Newsletter June 2010

Comparative trials between MBT Arjun and T-90 tanks were held during 15 February to 12 March 2010, to evaluate the utilisation strategy by the Indian Army. The evaluation parameters were firepower, mobility, maintainability,and medium fording. The trials were conducted in four phases.

Phase I: This was conducted at 180 Armoured Brigade, Bikaner. Acceleration, turning radius, stab performance, ergonomics, static fuel consumption, and serviceability and mean time to repair werechecked for various subsystems of the tanks.

Phase II: This was conducted at Hisar, Haryana.Check was made for medium fording capability.

Phase III: This was conducted at Mahajan Ranges,Rajasthan. Bridge crossing, night driving, maximum speed on cross-country and on hard ground, tilt driving, firing of primary and secondary ammunition,firing at night with thermal imagers (TI), consistency,rate of fire, thermal signature, TI capability and firing of small arms and Air Defence (AD) Gun were compared. In this phase, approximately 100 rounds were fired and 150 km of mobility run was completed by each of the 14 MBT Arjun tanks.

Phase IV:This was conducted at Ranjitpura, Rajasthan. Mobility in the desert and tactical cruising range were evaluated by running three tanks each for additional 150 km.
MBT Arjun displayed its capabilities and successfully passed all the trials.

An indigenous data logger for transmission control system of MBT Arjun has been developed by Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment(CVRDE), Chennai.The data logger is integrated to production series MBT Arjun, and data logging has also been carried out successfully.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 27 May 2010 04:20

Surya wrote:Its just amazing how many unrelated diversions have been brought in this thread

MOD, then smoothbore commonality, now Kornet and what it can do to Merk

keep going

Have you noticed the rush to denigrate "Western" design tanks, specifically the Merkava? It is an attempt to bring "guilt by association": prove that Merkava is bad using some carefully selected data points, then conclude that Western design philosophy tanks are all bad. The final step would be Arjun is a Western type design, so automatically, by association, its bad as well! Of course, actual data points against the Arjun cant be found, hence the indirect approach...

All while maintaining a deafening silence with respect to the T90s... no discussion at all as to how they would perform in the environment that Merkava operated in...

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 May 2010 09:06

^^^^^^ Even Army called in Israelis to evaluate Arjun Tank. Every rational person knows the worth of Merkava.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 May 2010 09:20

merkava is said to have equivalent of 300mm of protection in turret top to better safeguard against top attack projectiles. however a good part of the turrent on merkava is sloping from both top and bottom and is likely considered the front while the part behind the MG back to the end of turret ring is called the "top" - a relatively small area compared to more conventionally shaped turrets like M1 or ajun.
http://www.militarypictures.info/d/159- ... vaMk3c.jpg

relatively the merkava turret looks much further back compared to other tanks , due to front engine. give them some headroom to mount
L55+ cannons without the big stick protruding too far out.
http://armour.ws/wp-content/uploads/200 ... hel-01.jpg

sunny_s · Post by **sunny_s** » 27 May 2010 13:43

Two pics from the recent comparitive trial between Arjun & T-90

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 May 2010 14:02

good to see the babies who tore the t90 a new one lol. hope better res pics emerge of the trials.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 27 May 2010 14:25

Tanaji wrote:
Surya wrote:Its just amazing how many unrelated diversions have been brought in this thread

MOD, then smoothbore commonality, now Kornet and what it can do to Merk

keep going
Have you noticed the rush to denigrate "Western" design tanks, specifically the Merkava? It is an attempt to bring "guilt by association": prove that Merkava is bad using some carefully selected data points, then conclude that Western design philosophy tanks are all bad. The final step would be Arjun is a Western type design, so automatically, by association, its bad as well! Of course, actual data points against the Arjun cant be found, hence the indirect approach...

All while maintaining a deafening silence with respect to the T90s... no discussion at all as to how they would perform in the environment that Merkava operated in...

Man you guys are really touchy, see a monster under every stone.

This is a Armored vehicle thread btw, not a "Make Arjun sound good by beating on T 90" thread -- for one Arjun does not need that, it will run on its own merits.

Secondly -- not everyone sees the world in monochrome of you are with T 90 or with Arjun -- it possible to have a discussion on matters without even considering either of the Tanks.

As it happens, T 90s would (or should) never be used in the way Merkava's were used -- in fact even Merks should never have been used -- the discussion blows clear holes in the mythical superiority of some tanks. Just as the stingers blew a whole in the superiority of Heli Gunships and it use.

The point remains -- tanks are all well and good -- but their success and failure is intimately wedded to their use models. Always.

One vs one tank battles happen only in discovery channels, in real world a swarm of Churchill's takes down a panther or a tiger.

With all due respect people have to grow up and look beyond the simplistic discussion that has been the norm on this thread of some folks.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 27 May 2010 14:51

although I am not expert, I feel the wishy washy and "reluctant" use of airpower and tanks on hezbollah didnt cut a good picture. there were foot units that rested in israel during the day and crossed over for nightly patrols. war cannot be waged by half measures or weekend mode troops. in the end neither did they manage to come to grips with large units of hezbollah nor could sanitize the territory.

witness how the americans went into iraq - they had a job to do and a brief to rip apart anything that came in front regardless of collateral damage, cost or ugliness. they took their beatings but overwhelming use of artillery, tanks, IFVs and air support broke the back of the iraqis.
villages were totalled because some random sniper took a shot at a passing convoy, artillery sat around pounding iraqi towns which showed any resistance and they'd have torn apart falluja brick by brick had not POTUS stepped in and called it off for image makeover purposes.

israel should have occupied southern lebanon to get any ROI?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 27 May 2010 15:10

^^^

Yea to Singha.... Either do it the Indian way, boots on ground etc.. or do it the old Israeli/US way.

This half way here half way there was a total disaster for the Israeli's

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 29 May 2010 18:56

The Reason People should join facebook

Courtesy: Sandeep Unnithan
Cover Image for an upcoming feature in India-Today

60 Arjuns of the 43 Armoured Regiment pictured for the first time in one photo.. (There is that 60 tank brick again!)

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 May 2010 19:06

The arrangement of Arjuns in the picture is too uniform for me. Seems photoshopped.

There is only one block copied thrice.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 29 May 2010 19:13

good catch rohit.. (edited) I can make out if its three blocks photoshopepd thrice, there are definietely cloned elements in the tank tracks there.

I better tell sandeep before it goes on the cover..

Added: he said its a lead picture for a story.. not a cover..

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 May 2010 19:16

Even the front section of pic is different from the rear section.

But rest assured, if Arjun performance in lauded in Indian media and that too Indian Today, the situation would sure have completed 180 degree turn...from 90s and 2000 bashing of Arjun and DRDO in Indian media, to one of their flagship products actually making it to front cover of India today, is a real long journey.

If the generally ignorant media starts singing peans about local product, then it means that technically the product has really arrived.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 May 2010 19:29

at least we can see 18 at one place.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 29 May 2010 19:53

Not just the uniformity , even the red dots like things are exactly at the same place

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 May 2010 21:09

IMO, those 'red dots' are Guidons of the 43rd AR.

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 29 May 2010 21:37

shiva or any one in BRF in Bangalore who pass through the HAL airport rd notice a tank that is being painted and parked out side the ASC center opp Commando Hospital, if any one has noticed it can u pliz let us know what tank it is

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 May 2010 21:52

^^^Vijayanta

PS: Its Command Hospital.
Cheers

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 29 May 2010 23:14

CVRDE busted for passing offthe fake picture

They still claim 35 tanks in the picture that are supposed to be original.. debatable till we see a high res version.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 29 May 2010 23:29

In middle formation, gap between 2 tanks in 2nd row seems comparatively less when compared to tanks in adjacent formations

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 May 2010 23:31

no more than 18 real tanks. can't see how it can be 35.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 30 May 2010 03:11

^^^^
Less than 18 if you ask me. In each of the blocks of tanks, look at the left and right columns of each block and note they look like mirror images of each other.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 30 May 2010 03:21

that would bring the total down to 14.. just what an Armoured Squadron is made of ..

closer look - the first tank does look different.. the gun angle

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 30 May 2010 05:26

Well, regardless, if you look from far away and squint, the pic looks nice and threatening. Mission accomplished.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 30 May 2010 09:35

welcome back Vivek it is long since I see one of your positing

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 30 May 2010 17:36

Those 10 tanks in the middle section of the formation look real,rest of them on the two side columns are p.s.ed, not part of the original picture.

ashthor · Post by **ashthor** » 30 May 2010 17:42

the middle section is original....the other outer sections are same they are flipped. the right section has been flipped and pasted on the left side.

arijitkm · Post by **arijitkm** » 31 May 2010 12:03

[quote="sunny_s"]Two pics from the recent comparitive trial between Arjun & T-90

This is my first post.The above picture posted by sunny_s.also there is the same picture on http://idrw.org/?p=1840[/url][/img] with a caption "Arjun tank demonstrating its ability to drive thorough a water channel which was 5-6 feet deep ,feature not available in T-90 tank". if anyone can enlighten me about the deep diving feature of T-90.
Thanks.
arijitkm

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Jun 2010 18:19

a chankian question. what made the NATO tank designers shift from 105mm to 120mm ?

when the T72 came online, followed by T80 @ 125mm, NATO figured they needed better armour and they got it by
virtue of chobham technology.

but if the idea was to deal with the new soviet tanks, what advantage does a 120mm give?
APDS are sub caliber darts and the same apds sabot in diameter and length should be able to be
sheathed in a 105mm case or 120mm case. the muzzle velocity of a next-gen 105mm could
have been made same as the eventual 120mm. americans dont even carry a hesh round which
presumably being fatter could carry few grams more explosive.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 01 Jun 2010 19:39

Singha wrote:a chankian question. what made the NATO tank designers shift from 105mm to 120mm ?

Heee Heee

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 01 Jun 2010 20:10

Paramilitary to get new weapons, vehicles

As part of its plan to arm paramilitary troops, including those operating in Naxal-hit areas, with high-tech weapons, government has sanctioned procurements of armoured and bullet proof vehicles besides arms valuing nearly Rs 300 crore. The Union Home Ministry in the last one month has sanctioned 119 TATA Light Armoured Troop Carriers (LATC) worth Rs 49.90 crore and 98 bullet proof Mahindra Rakshaks and three LATCs at a cost of Rs 37.97 crore, Home Minister P Chidambaram told reporters today.The ministry has also approved procurement of night vision devices for rifles at a cost of Rs 184.80 crore, besides 146 automatic grenade launchers and 47,030 grenades are also been bought from a Russian firm Rosoboron Export at a cost of Rs 22.95 crore. Laser range finders is also being procured from Fotono, a Slovenian firm at a cost of Rs 1.33 crore.In all, procurements amounting to Rs 296.95 crore has been approved by the ministry, Chidambaram said. Besides the above mentioned items, in the last two months alone, the Home Ministry has given sanction to a number of modernisation programmes of paramilitary forces, including procurement of 59,000 light-weight bullet-proof jackets.Official sources said

CRPF, BSF NSG, ITBP are being re-equipped at breakneck speed with new weapons, bullet-proof jackets, riot gear and armoured vehicles. The NSG has recently placed an order of over 800 state-of-the-art SIG rifles, something which certain other forces are also looking at.Last month, the MHA sanctioned procurement of 378 automatic grenade launchers and related ammunition at a total cost of Rs 37.83 crore. It also sanctioned procurement of 34,377 carbines for the BSF at a cost of Rs 137.51 crore.The CISF, which guards airports, nuclear plants and other sensitive installations, already uses Glock pistols and will also procure 1,000 more such weapons at a cost of Rs 2.5 crore,

http://idrw.org/?p=1866#more-1866

vic · Post by **vic** » 01 Jun 2010 23:11

DELETED.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 01 Jun 2010 23:47

^^^Why is this post here?

vic · Post by **vic** » 02 Jun 2010 01:27

rohitvats wrote:^^^Why is this post here?

because

DELETED

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 02 Jun 2010 02:04

vic wrote:
rohitvats wrote:^^^Why is this post here?

because
DELETED

Good sir, the topic of this thread is Armored Vehicles Discussion Thread. Is any item in the news article posted by you pertinent to the purpose of this thread? Hence, the question.

vic · Post by **vic** » 02 Jun 2010 10:36

If you are admin then delete it and if not lump it!

negi · Post by **negi** » 02 Jun 2010 10:54

Singha wrote:a chankian question. what made the NATO tank designers shift from 105mm to 120mm ?

Gurudev if my knowledge of chronology of major developments in armor is correct then RU first came out with 100mm rifled gun for T-55 during WW-II, Khan and munna adopted 105mm L7 for Centurions and M-60s, RU came up with T-62 - 115 mm smooth bore (RU introduced first large caliber SB for tanks), British came up with Chieftain -120mm rifled gun , RU introduced T-64 with 125 mm SB gun , Khan and Germany tied up for MBT-70 armed with Rheinmetall AG's 120mm SB gun.

khukri · Post by **khukri** » 02 Jun 2010 11:00

vic wrote:If you are admin then delete it and if not lump it!

Oh come on - he asked a polite and relevant question. This issue has nothing to do with armoured vehicles and belongs in another thread - where you have posted it btw!

There's no need to be offensive!