Kargil War Thread - VI

[rohitvats]

He is trying to save his skin after the Brigadier Devinder Singh verdit.

Our media, will as usual, have field day in playing up one against the another. And you might very well have a Navy or IAF officer (more so IAF) coming out with an article in some time upbraiding the Army on this and that.

[atreya]

This "we did not win the war" is simply a strategy of the Lt. Gen to divert attention from himself. He must have been receiving flak from all sides and thought, "why not drop a bombshell, so that people look the other side". If we don't fall for this trick, he'll next be claiming that there was never a Kargil war. As Airavat's post shows, his true opinion about his juniors is betrayed in that interview after the war.

[anirban_aim]

Strategic loss

Lt Gen (retd) Kishen Pal, who headed the Srinagar-based 15 Corps during the 1999 conflict, told television channel NDTV in an interview broadcast on Sunday that he had never been convinced that India had won.

Bandicoot and the Hamid duo of Pak will be orgasming right now. Paki media is going to have a field day with this.

I wonder if it'll be haraam to post some of those links here?? Mods??

Somebody ought to ask KP why he was caught with his pants down claiming 45 intruders, but may be then he will run for the intelligence reports fig leaf.

I wonder what this would be doing to the morale of the junior officers, and cadets right now in the academies??

Is this not a mockery of the sacrifices of all those who died

Well is it just me or does KP really look like Kaul reincarned minus the polictical links

[Philip]

Ramanna has a crucial point to make.Why did the Pakis when the boot was on the other foot and when the whole scheme began to unravel flee to the PRC for consultations and support? That is when we supposedly intercepted their commns. and unwisely told the US about it.Such an intel coup could've been milked for years! One must never forget that to the PRC,Pak is its assault force against India.Why then despite all the chaos of Pak's Islamist terrorism and internal chaos it continues to expans Pak's nuclear arsenal and bomb making potential with further reactor and missile transfers? The common goal of the PRC and Pak ,the military minds at least,was to cut India down to size AND the NDA govt. represented by the pro-India BJP in power for the first time.This was another '62 but this time executed by the Pakis,proxies for the PRC.The PRC cannot openly challenge India at the moment as it pretends to be peaceful reaping in economic rewards from western investors.It thus uses ever-ready proxy Pak to do its dirty work.Pak's reward is more military aid at "friendship rpices",especially nuke and missile tech.

Gen.Bandicoot's boldness in executing Kargil has never been satisfactorily answered.It appears that he had the nod from the PRC but never expected such a successful counter-offensive from India and choked because he never took his air force and navy into full confidence,allowing the IN on the threshold of strangling his entire logistic suplly chain from abbroad especially petro supplies.

[manjgu]

phillip.... pl dont call it a crucial point... its a conspiracy theory. In the absence of evidence even circumstantial it does not hold much weight. even the brightest strategic minds have not alluded to such a possibility.

while this theory looks interesting it is at best a theory unless well supported by more than conjectures. when mushy was in china, they had their tails up...did not look like he had to flee to china..

[peter]

Ramanna has a crucial point to make.Why did the Pakis when the boot was on the other foot and when the whole scheme began to unravel flee to the PRC for consultations and support? That is when we supposedly intercepted their commns. and unwisely told the US about it.Such an intel coup could've been milked for years!

Are you suggesting India has better snooping capabilities then uncle sam? Besides it is Pakistan's fervent hope that when they attack India China should follow suit. Has'nt happened yet. Who knows about the future?

[ShauryaT]

Ramana's point about an outside hand, most likely PRC behind Kargil will come out some day. Not only for Kargil, but I suspect the entire AQK network was under PRC's patronage. Never forget who's designs were being peddled in Libya.

Western Intelligence has little about PRC dealings (technical capabilities notwithstanding) and even less so, where it does not directly concern them.

[peter]

Lt Gen (retd) Kishen Pal, who headed the Srinagar-based 15 Corps during the 1999 conflict, told television channel NDTV in an interview broadcast on Sunday that he had never been convinced that India had won.

[..]

Well is it just me or does KP really look like Kaul reincarned minus the polictical links

http://www.tehelka.com/story_main13.asp ... lt_the.asp

What can one make out of this KP interview? Was no one interested in taking a hard decision?

[ramana]

http://www.tehelka.com/story_main13.asp ... lt_the.asp

What can one make out of this KP interview? Was no one interested in taking a hard decision?

Q&A

COUNTERPOINT

‘HQ felt the situation was not serious’

Lt Gen Krishan Pal was the man on the front during the Kargil war as 15 Corps commander. Excerpts from an interview he gave to Vikram Jit Singh:

Gen Malik has said he did not agree with you that intruders were jehadis?

The perception from Prague is going to be different (Gen Malik was in Europe from May 11-21, 1999). I will come out one day on what exactly was said by whom. I never said jehadis only. My assessment was very clear and I gave it in writing. I have nothing against Gen Malik. He has his own conscience to answer. Why did he go abroad? Is he trying to say that he went abroad because of my assessment that the situation is not serious? Did he not have Military Intelligence and other agencies to check? The Northern Army commander was there, does he not apprise the chief?

Why did you underplay the intrusion initially, describing it as a local situation that would be tackled locally?

That was meant to bolster our boys. Was it required for me to say we were in a soup? But there were deliberate attempts made to say my estimates show nothing. My wife was on the operating table in Pune but I cancelled my leave and flew back on May 6, 1999. Evidently I knew the situation was serious. But for the chief to go out of the country at that juncture, he has to justify his stand. Within 24-72 hours, I mobilised the forces. They were moved fast, even without acclimatisation. Yes, there were casualties initially because of the weather. As far as my statement on ‘local situation’ is concerned, the operations were dealt with the resources available locally, ie with the 15 Corps.
‘My wife was ill, yet I flew back. But for the chief to go out of the country... he has to justify his stand’
Air Marshal Patney has accused the army of underplaying intrusions and yet demanding the IAF’s help…

Is it some doctrine that the IAF will come in only when there is an all-out war? Patney is the recipient of the Sarvottam Yudh Sewa Medal. He was sitting in Delhi. What role did he play? There is need to verify what the IAF actually did. There are two mission reports: one by the IAF pilots and the other by observers and ground troops. You will get to know where they dropped their bombs. The IAF was in a World War II mode. They wanted a mission package: bombers to be escorted by fighters. But the IAF has not trained, they had no knowledge of the terrain.

Lt Gen (retd) YM Bammi’s Kargil: The Impregnable Conquered quotes you as saying that there were only 45 militants in the Batalik sector while the divisional and brigade commanders said 400-600…

This is not my version. How did he come to know I said 45 militants. The divisional and brigade commanders were exaggerating to show how difficult the operations were. But I am not the one to exaggerate. What was the basis of the 400-600 figure? Nobody knows what the actual level was. We say so many nli battalions came in, but out of each of these battalions how many troops did actually come in? Despite all this talk of 400-600 intruders, we were able to overcome the intrusions in Batalik with just 2-3 battalions.

When did you learn the intruders were Pakistani soldiers?

It was clear by May 17-18. The situation got clearer when our choppers were shot down. We said on May 19 that we have no doubt, seeing scale of operations, it is supported by the Pakistani army. The subsequent captures showed it was the nli that had come in.

You have been criticised for underplaying the intrusion to cover up for your assessment failure.

It was the duty of those higher up to alert me, give more troops. It is not the Corps commander who makes the assessment. My job is to fit assessment to operational perspectives. My task is to use assessments from army hq, Military Intelligence, ground troops, the raw, ib. The assessments are not mine, they are of the hq. The operational directive to me from the hq was to evict the intruders in a week. But I told (then Vice-Chief) Chandrashekhar on May 14, that it would take a month just to deploy forces. He said it was too long. The assessment of the hq was that situation was not serious. I kept telling them it was serious.

Intrusions were detected in the area of 102 Infantry Brigade before they were found in Batalik. Why were these kept a secret?

The whole picture was well known to everyone. The build-up started in Turtuk.

July 30, 2005

[Sanku]

Telehka has been doing one hatchet piece on Indian forces after the other, they go for easy pickings usually.

Its Lt Gen KPs turn now. That man should be court martialed, if not for his actions during Kargil, his nonsense now.

Perhaps the only thing he has to say is that he fought everyone single handedly and everybody else was ineffective.

Pah...

[Airavat]

Increasing tourism in Turtuk and Batalik

Over six months after Union Government lifted restrictions, four destinations of Ladakh region including Turtuk and Batlik, which attracted worldwide attention following Kargil war, have started becoming favourite destination of domestic as well as foreign tourists....

Since arrival of tourists will help improve the economic condition of inhabitants of these places, the Council has started educating people about the home stay scheme under which they get financial assistance of up to Rs one lakh for converting some portion of their residence to provide accommodation to visiting tourists, he said.

[negi]

Nice to see things come out in open instead of being brushed under the carpet in the name of national security and similar farce , it seems my observations about Kargil war and first posts on BRF on this topic were not too far from the truth .

[manjgu]

Mr Negi... pray what were your first words on kargil which have come out to be true. Looks like everybody is claiming some glory or other?? how wise the world is in hindsight !!

[peter]

Telehka has been doing one hatchet piece on Indian forces after the other, they go for easy pickings usually.

Its Lt Gen KPs turn now. That man should be court martialed, if not for his actions during Kargil, his nonsense now.

Perhaps the only thing he has to say is that he fought everyone single handedly and everybody else was ineffective.

Pah...

Lt. Gen. Krishan Pal's comments are not recent. They are from July 2005. Why would KP and others feel the need for Gen Malik to be present in the country? Why this acrimony over his Prague visit?

[Sanku]

Lt. Gen. Krishan Pal's comments are not recent. They are from July 2005. Why would KP and others feel the need for Gen Malik to be present in the country? Why this acrimony over his Prague visit?

I do not know, frankly, but I do know one thing, that my comments about Tehelka still stand despite those points as also the critisim of Lt Gen K Pal's recent comments on Kargil.

For a officer of that rank, this ruling comes as a severe chastisement. At least he could have refrained from spreading the muck in public.

[negi]

Mr Negi... pray what were your first words on kargil which have come out to be true. Looks like everybody is claiming some glory or other?? how wise the world is in hindsight !!

Well you can visit the Kargil archives , however to re-iterate I have always maintained that Kargil war was ill planned in fact iirc I once said it was a classic example of how not to fight a war. It is just that we have a chanakian excuse ready for every goof up.

[peter]

Lt. Gen. Krishan Pal's comments are not recent. They are from July 2005. Why would KP and others feel the need for Gen Malik to be present in the country? Why this acrimony over his Prague visit?

I do not know, frankly, but I do know one thing, that my comments about Tehelka still stand despite those points as also the critisim of Lt Gen K Pal's recent comments on Kargil.

For a officer of that rank, this ruling comes as a severe chastisement. At least he could have refrained from spreading the muck in public.

I feel there is more to it then what meets the eye. KP is in a corner. And a trial by media is on. Frankly it is a bit odd that Tribunal did not ask him for his opinion. Can we find a fault with what he has said in the tehelka interview about the state of affairs or his reasons for why he said what?

As a starter would somebody in the know confirm if his wife was really on the operating table?

Who recommended Devinder Singh for a Maha Vir Chakra?

[Sanku]

KP is in a corner. And a trial by media is on. Frankly it is a bit odd that Tribunal did not ask him for his opinion. Can we find a fault with what he has said in the tehelka interview about the state of affairs or his reasons for why he said what?

Peter thats why I said Tehelaka is always looking for easy pickings to run hatchet jobs on the reputation and credibility of Indian armed forces

KP should have realized that he his letting himself get played by others who may have different reasons for letting his voice be heard (after they have done their modulation of course)

[Vipul]

Capt Saurabh Kalia's torture by Pak army still not 'war crime'.

On June 9, 1999, NK Kalia had received the body of his son – Captain Saurabh Kalia – with evidence of torture by the Pakistan Army. Eleven years later, 62-year-old Kalia is still fighting for justice – he wants the act to be declared a war crime by the UN.

However, numerous letters to the Centre have failed to move the government to pursue the matter with the world body. Five other soldiers were tortured and killed along with Capt Kalia. "I am ashamed of being an Indian. The country has spineless leaders,"said Kalia.

"In order to declare a war crime, the ministry of defence needs to write to the ministry of external affairs, which then takes up the matter with the UN Human Rights Council. The council then refers the matter to the General Assembly, which can declare war crime. It then goes to the international court of justice. It is the ministry of external affairs that did not follow up the case with the UN," says Colonel (retd) SK Aggarwal, former judge advocate general (JAG) officer.

Pakistan army had captured Captain Saurabh Kalia of 4 Jat Regiment and five other soldiers on May 15, 1999 from Kaksar area of Kargil sector.

They were kept in captivity for over 22 days and subjected to unprecedented torture as evident from their bodies. The bodies were handed over to India on June 9,1999.

Moved by the torture meted out to his son by Pakistan army, Kalia launched a struggle to declare the act a war crime. Kalia wrote series of letter to then Minister for External Affairs Jaswant Singh.

[negi]

^ Why blame the gobermund only ? What did IA do to convey the same to GOI via the MoD ? All this when these guys yap about so called victory in Kargil . We are not even talking about war damages as yet.

[prahaar]

Negi, please read above "It is the ministry of external affairs that did not follow up the case with the UN".

[anirban_aim]

Recent piece by R Prasannan in the Week Magazine.

http://week.manoramaonline.com/cgi-bin/ ... Id=7341976

Brig. Devinder Singh was always the hero of Batalik.

Only a few months earlier he had played the ‘enemy’ in Batalik. In a wargame at Pal’s 15 Corps headquarters in early April, he had acted as Pakistan’s force commander (Northern Areas) and thrust a brigade-sized force into the area between Zoji La and Kargil. As a sideshow, he had also thrust a battalion-sized force into Batalik. He had found that he, as a Pakistani commander, could actually interdict the Srinagar-Zoji La-Kargil-Leh road. But Pal had summarily dismissed his projections as being unrealistic.

As the tribunal observed last week, Devinder “systematically recovered the ambushed patrols, contained the enemy intrusion and prepared the ground for evicting the intrusion, awaiting the availability of the requisite troops and other resources.” Malik’s book, From Surprise to Victory, recorded: “70 infantry brigade under Brig. Devinder Singh had arrived just in time to ensure that the enemy did not extend the intrusion to dominate the Leh-Batalik-Kargil road.”

But at that moment Devinder’s mind was on the immediate task. Following 5 Para’s failure, he took personal control of the operation and moved his headquarters into the battle area on June 19. Then he executed a brilliant tactical move.

On the night of June 18-19 he made a probing attack towards another feature which made the enemy think that he was targeting that feature. As a JAKLI column provided cover fire, Devinder’s men took 5203 by early morning of June 21. The brigadier who led from the front was wounded by a splinter. But instead of seeking the safety of a hospital, he went in for some first aid and insisted on being in command of his brigade. The next day, he made his moves to secure Junk Lungpa and other features which would take about a month.

While Devinder was leading his men from the front at China Nulla, something else was being done behind his back. In early July, Pal asked Budhwar to “position someone senior to co-ordinate in Yaldor sector,”

On July 4, when the battle of Khalubar was going on under Devinder’s brigade area, Colonel Lalit Rai of 1/11 Gurkhas, a Vir Chakra winner, wanted permission to make a tactical retreat from a position. Devinder, who was on the move, could not be contacted. Duggal granted permission.

Independent observers like Bammi have faulted both Duggal and Devinder on this. “Instead of permitting them to pull back...,” observed Bammi, “he [Duggal] could have sent a relief column by day from the reserve company of Grenadiers or Gorkhas, for evacuating casualties and supplying ammunition.”

Similarly, “considering that the attack on Khalubar Ridge was a vital one, Brigadier Devinder could be faulted for being away from his headquarters from 29th June to 4th July.” Bammi blames Budhwar, too. “As at that time only 70 Infantry Brigade was undertaking operations in 3 infantry divisional sector, the general officer commanding [Budhwar] could have personally taken charge of the situation, rather than inducting his deputy [Duggal], who was new to the area and the units.”

As Captain Amrinder Singh would record in A Ridge Too Far, “70 brigade, under Brigadier Devinder Singh, the first formation to be inducted on 3 May, had completed its tasks with distinction.” By August 8, the day on which he fought the last battle, Devinder had fought for 92 days during which time he had moved his tactical headquarters four times “in order to remain close to its forward units and to be able to feel the battle at all times.”

Most commentators, including Malik, have been all praise for Devinder. Even Bammi, who faults him for being too thick in the battle and thus be not contactable, said that Devinder “conducted the most crucial operations of Operation Vijay, in an area totally void of any infrastructure. He was allotted troops piecemeal, and was often under pressure to complete the task at the earliest, as the assessment of the enemy strength and intentions varied from few to four hundred infiltrators/militants to 800 Pakistan army soldiers. He had to plan, conduct and monitor operations on two widely separate and inaccessible subsectors along China Nullah and Junk Lungpa/Gragrio Nullah, and was often on the move.

“Besides these handicaps, interference and advice, lack of maps and air photos, lack of mutual understanding and rapport also affected the operations, initially. Yet, it is to the credit of his leadership and the sacrifice of his brave troops that 70 infantry brigade was the first to completely drive the enemy out from Indian territory, and inflicted maximum casualties on the enemy, and took maximum prisoners of war. Though given a daunting task in an area with which he was vaguely familiar, it is to Brigadier Devinder Singh’s credit that by the time the operations ended in July 1999, his troops had captured the complete area evicting nearly 800 Pakistani troops....”

he found that Pal had given credit for the Batalik victory to Duggal in his despatches. The despatches read: “Success in operations, particularly in last ten to twelve days came about by superimposing Brigadier Ashok Duggal, Deputy GOC 3 Infantry Division who positioned himself at Ganasok (up front) and ahead and helped in conduct of the operations.”

In the After Action Report (AAR), Pal had mentioned that Devinder was in charge only of the western flank of his area and that the eastern flank was headed by Duggal. There was problem in his annual confidential report (ACR), too, initiated by Budhwar and reviewed by Pal.

A shocked Devinder filed a statutory complaint against Pal’s despatches, contending that because of the differences in the assessment of war front, Pal was not very favourably motivated towards him. The ministry looked into the matter and expunged the remark about Duggal having been superimposed over him.

But the remarks in the AAR remained. As the case came up for hearing, Devinder’s immediate superior Budhwar’s views were sought by the Army. Budhwar gave his comments in writing: “Brigadier Devinder Singh was called back with operations along the western flank having been partially successful. On arrival back at Ganasok, Brigadier Duggal reverted back to Kargil. Both officers carried out the tasks assigned to them. Brigadier Duggal was not superimposed. He was temporarily given charge of the eastern flank to coordinate and assist deputy commander 70 Infantry Brigade in the conduct of operations and to take my directions.”

This made the tribunal conclude that “there was no question of superimposition of Brig. Ashok Duggal in the whole operation,” and order the Army to correct the AAR.

The tribunal was informed that Pal had shown bias against Devinder earlier, too. Pal’s ACR on Devinder for the period July 1996 to November 1998 had been set aside by the ministry. Similarly, the ministry also expunged nine of 16 points in the ACR pertaining to the period of war. Commented the tribunal: “When more than 50 per cent of the qualities written by... Krishan Pal has already been expunged, that means heart was taken out and what remained was the skeleton. In view of the fact that ...Krishan Pal was not favourably motivated towards petitioner, ...we ...cannot trust the report rendered by Lt-Gen. Krishan Pal as objectively written, with regard to the ACR for period in question. It is difficult to fathom the mind of the person who in a subtle manner spoils the ACR of the incumbent.... Accordingly, we direct the ACR from 11/98 to 06/99 should be expunged....”

The most significant was what history would record. The tribunal ordered the Army headquarters to ‘moderate’ paragraph 37 in the official Account of War in Kargil Volume III. The paragraph reads: “While commander 70 Infantry Brigade controlled operations on the western flank (Jubar Complex), deputy GOC 3 infantry division controlled the Stangba-Khalubar Ridge operations.” The tribunal has ordered this record also be corrected.

Will the Army appeal is what I want to see. The chink in the armor of the verdict will be the fact that the tribunal didnot call call KP to depose. The situation is intresting as all Kargil related chiefs have now retired.

After Gen. V.P. Malik, it was Gen. Padmanabhan who had been northern Army commander until three months before the war. He was in charge when the incursions started.

The next chief was Gen. N.C. Vij. He was director-general military operations during the war. Then came Gen. J.J. Singh, who was additional director-general military operations during the war. He compiled the Army HQ account of the war. He also compiled the AAR at each level—battalion, brigade, division, corps, command and Army HQ.

So will VKS will just let it pass since currently only KP has to bear the cross, but what if KP goes to court or betterstill writes a book claiming all and sundry were with him on this.

I think the response will be based on what the Army thinks will be the path of least resistance. I'll wait to see how this unravles further but I'm not holding my breath.

Here is a brief write up as told by Devinder Singh himself to the hack.

http://week.manoramaonline.com/cgi-bin/ ... Id=7341977

The verdict is a big relief for me and my brigade [70 Infantry]. Our victory in Batalik came after a lot of hardship and sacrifice. So we were horrified to find that the credit was being given to someone else [Brig. Ashok Duggal]. The After Action Report (AAR) said that someone had done our job.

Apart from Lt-Gen. Pal, who initiated the fudging, there was another level at Udhampur. Lt-Gen. H.M. Khanna, general officer commanding-in-chief (Northern Command), should have noticed and corrected the anomaly. But he did not do that. Obviously, he either connived with Lt-Gen. Pal or remained a silent spectator. The director-general of military operations, too, should have known. Obviously, there was a collusion or a silent acceptance of the fudging

[negi]

Negi, please read above "It is the ministry of external affairs that did not follow up the case with the UN".

Boss all this is hogwash, these things need to be settled immediately after the ceasefore was declared ; had the intent been there in the first place this issue should have been brought up with GOP even before we agreed to their demands of ceasefire.
The only reason this issue is still not resolved is either it was never brought up or we never were in the commanding position to dictate the terms i.e. Kargil like other Indo-Pak conflicts was a classic example of successful shoot and scoot tactics by the TSPA where they knew in the worst case they would end up loosing some men.


Come to think of it this is a JOKE, a ceasefire is declared when both the parties reach a consensus on the outstading issues and it is obvious the party having the upper hand (or the self proclaimed winner) dictates the terms of the settlement and IA has a say in these matters afterall it is they who were fighting it out on the ground.
If war crimes and other damages were not accounted for by the chai-pakora group then why cry foul and point fingers now ? And following it up with UN is even more funny (as if anyone cares).

Tomorrow MEA will update the issue "We have filed our complaint with the relevant UN body" then what ?

[Jagan]

negi,

across the world, when was the last time that any country paid war damages? especially in a stalemate?

[ramana]

The issue is declaring the torture of Lt Kalia and his men as a war crime based on Geneva protocoal. War damages is not the issue. I still have a copy of the autopsy report.

MEA in its love fest with US ignored the follow-up.


Still nothing prevents GOI from declaring that except the DDM and sold out politicians.

[negi]

Jagan saar you are absolutely right for in post WW-II era no bafoon has fought wars with the same adversary for as many as 3 times and managed a stalemate each and every time.
Yes war damages were not paid after the Falklands war or even the 1962 Indo-China war for each time the party with upper hand made territorial gains.

And btw from wiki

After the Gulf War, Iraq accepted United Nations Security Council resolution 687, which declared Iraq's financial liability for damage caused in its invasion of Kuwait. The United Nations Compensation Commission ("UNCC") was established, and US$350 billion in claims were filed by governments, corporations, and individuals. Funds for these payments were to come from a 30% share of Iraq's oil revenues from the oil for food program. It was not anticipated that US$350 billion would become available for total payment of all reparations claims, so several schedules of prioritization were created over the years. The UNCC says that its prioritization of claims by natural people, ahead of claims by governments and entities or corporations (legal persons), "marked a significant step in the evolution of international claims practice.

[Jagan]

I still have a copy of the autopsy report.
.

ramana, was it a public domain document? where can I find it?

in post WW-II era no bafoon has fought wars with the same adversary for as many as 3 times and managed a stalemate each and every time.
Yes war damages were not paid after the Falklands war or even the 1962 Indo-China war for each time the party with upper hand made territorial gains.

Apart from the Iraq example you gave me which is a complex situation (UN sanction, mulitnational force etc). there is no real precedent even among victors. Israel trounced its opponents all of the time but were they able to get any war reparations ?? anyway my point is - lets be realistic in our demands from the government and lets not blame it for 'failures' that are not really counted as failures

[ramana]

After hearing about the torture I wrote to Dr. Kalia expressing my sympathies at his loss. He in turn sent me the autopsy and post card with Lt Saurabh Kalia's picture.

BTW, I addressed it Dr. Kalia, F/O Lt. S. Kalia, Palanpur, Himachal Pradesh and was surprised to get his letter in 1999.

[negi]

Apart from the Iraq example you gave me which is a complex situation
(UN sanction, mulitnational force etc). there is no real precedent even among victors.

IRAQ example shows that one can claim damages as long as one wields the stick.

And coming to UK or China , why should they even ask for WAR reparations ? They both made huge territorial gains at the cost of a weaker country.

Talking about realistic demands and comparing our case with Israel imho you have already gone off to a tangent . Btw Israel still controls the Golan heights. (and we wonder how come the other day Israel did an equal equal with India )

What areas of TSP did we annex/capture ? (reclaiming lost territory does not count).

Btw I do not care much about war damages it was just an additional data point, Capt. Saurabh Kalia's case alone shows the incompetence and apathy of the powers at the helm.

[Jagan]

if anything I am arguing that these war reparations are a thing of past - and wont happen in the current world anytime soon. Even the Iraq thing you bought up - seems to be a one-off example. my arguement is simple - war damages have never been the norm. So why are you complaining about the Indian Government for this non-existent lapse? IMO its an untenable complaint against the govt. There are other bones to pick.

After hearing about the torture I wrote to Dr. Kalia expressing my sympathies at his loss. He in turn sent me the autopsy and post card with Lt Saurabh Kalia's picture.

Ramana thanks for the update.

[negi]

^ Well if this was about winning arguments , you never did specify first that IRAQ's case cannot be considered also why play with semantics ? A war is fought for a reason the victorious side usually opts for reparations when it is forced to release the captured territory, in 1962 Indo-China war is a classic example of the above in that case question of war reparations does not arise as the ceasefire was announced on PRC's terms (they got all of the Tibet), same with Israel capturing and controlling Golan heights , UK's case is different while it had no right over the Falkland Islands the Argentine misadventure gave them an opportunity to consolidate their hold over the territory . In all of the above cases the stronger party did not seek war reparations as not only did they make territorial gains but they had little or no moral standing to ask for one in the first place.

India sir is different we have never been the guilty party in each of our confrontations with the TSP , we had the advantage in 65 as well as in 1998 it is just that brass at the top chickened out plain and simple.Dhimmis and self appointed strategic experts can come up with excuse like US's 'xth fleet and stuff , but then I ask who was stopping the bunch of thumb twiddlers to sanction funds for an ICBM programme all this while , we had the deliverable back in 1974 had their been an ICBM in 1998 the dogs backing the TSP would have remained in their kennel.

[Prem]

After hearing about the torture I wrote to Dr. Kalia expressing my sympathies at his loss. He in turn sent me the autopsy and post card with Lt Saurabh Kalia's picture.

BTW, I addressed it Dr. Kalia, F/O Lt. S. Kalia, Palanpur, Himachal Pradesh and was surprised to get his letter in 1999.

I was under the impression they moved to proper Naya Nangal.

[Jagan]

^ Well if this was about winning arguments , you never did specify first that IRAQ's case cannot be considered also why play with semantics ? A war is fought for a reason the victorious side usually opts for reparations when it is forced to release the captured territory, in 1962 Indo-China war is a classic example of the above in that case question of war reparations does not arise as the ceasefire was announced on PRC's terms (they got all of the Tibet), same with Israel capturing and controlling Golan heights , UK's case is different while it had no right over the Falkland Islands the Argentine misadventure gave them an opportunity to consolidate their hold over the territory . In all of the above cases the stronger party did not seek war reparations as not only did they make territorial gains but they had little or no moral standing to ask for one in the first place

Actually I am not much into the semantics either - all i know is that war damages are passe and blaming the indian government for something like that is ludicrous. you ofcourse are entitled to think that view is ludicrious - to each his own.

India sir is different we have never been the guilty party in each of our confrontations with the TSP , we had the advantage in 65 as well as in 1998 it is just that brass at the top chickened out plain and simple.Dhimmis and self appointed strategic experts can come up with excuse like US's 'xth fleet and stuff , but then I ask who was stopping the bunch of thumb twiddlers to sanction funds for an ICBM programme all this while , we had the deliverable back in 1974 had their been an ICBM in 1998 the dogs backing the TSP would have remained in their kennel.

non kargil related response here http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 58#p885558

[AdityaM]

After hearing about the torture I wrote to Dr. Kalia expressing my sympathies at his loss. He in turn sent me the autopsy and post card with Lt Saurabh Kalia's picture.

Could you please share it over email? It will be kept private.

[ramana]

One can start from here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saurabh_Kalia

There is a Facebook page too.

[wig]

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2010/20100611/j&k.htm#3

“The very fact that Saurabh Kalia was tortured for so many days proved he did not divulge anything to the enemy about the Army’s positions and strength,” observes a senior Army officer, standing next to the long list of martyrs that includes Saurabh’s name also, at the Balidan Stambh near Bahu Rakh, Jammu.
But while a befitting memorial and supreme honour awaits Captain Saurabh, the people of the state have not forgotten his sacrifice. His name finds mention in the list of the martyrs.

The Army officer, who does not wish to be identified, had participated in the Kargil War. It was on June 9 that Saurabh’s mutilated body was handed over to his parents. The Army officer echoes the anguish of Saurabh’s parents that he wasn’t given a befitting honour and the Indian government did not pursue his torture as a case of war crime.

“His was an exemplary feat. If he had revealed anything, there was no need to torture him and four other soldiers, time and again,” the officer said."

Saurabh was only awarded a Sena Medal for his sacrifice. “Though, no one has any authentic information on what he revealed or not to the enemy, his prolonged torture tells the brave boy did not surrender to the enemy. His sacrifice should be acknowledged,” said the Army Officer.

[jamwal]

Candle light march in Hyderabad to pay tributes to the martyrs of Kargil war:

Venue: Necklace Road, opp MMTS Railway Station.
Date: 26th July (monday), on the eve of VIJAY DIWAS
Time: 6:30 PM to 8 PM

[sumeet_s]

Candle light march in Hyderabad to pay tributes to the martyrs of Kargil war:

Venue: Necklace Road, opp MMTS Railway Station.
Date: 26th July (monday), on the eve of VIJAY DIWAS
Time: 6:30 PM to 8 PM

damn..its in the evening.

Jamwal saar.. do you know any such sort happening in morning hrs in hyd. any memorial in hyd??

[chackojoseph]

This morning, I received a mail from Col Virender Thapar. Let me quote it to you

Kindly rememember those who won the day for us.

Col V N Thapar

Although the mail was to me a some other folks, but, its worth sharing.

Added later

I hope Congree too will wake up 10th anniversary of Kargil war, BJP workers to visit homes of the martyred

[jamwal]

sumeet_s

No idea.