Future Strategic Scenario for the Indian Subcontinent -II

[brihaspati]

People in general, wholescale did not adopt "Jainism" and "Buddhism" in teh classical claimed forms in respective texts from the theologians. I pointed out that the major adoptees, for both - and more so in Buddhism - were the urban classes of merchants, artisans and female entertainers. This division was true for Sindh too. We have strong evidence that the rural people and support base of the "non-Buddhist" Chachian kings of Sindh did fight against the invaders, but the invaders were helped by the mercantile classes of samanis - who did not live the acclaimed frugal and celibate lives claimed by Hinayana buddhism.

The samanis maintained the trade networks and actively provided resources and supplies to Qasims army. Urban merchant classes under Buddhists or some pretensions of monasticism - were more concerned about continued profits than the fate of their countrymen. A section of mercantile interests virtually sold off their society in the hope of mercantile profitability. Buddhism of that period probably was only responsible in providing all the right ideological covers to those elite who did not want to get involved in the dangerous business of protecting their people but rather help the marauders to extend their genocidic sway. The Buddhist preachings of high morality and restraint and ahimsa could be effective tools at the hands of elite propagandists to both justify their own inaction, collaboration with the vicious enemy, and preventing grassroots resistance buildup.

Exactly the same tactics perhaps still in use - and the reason why "Buddhist" ahimsa, "tolerance" for everything and anything (with some permanent exceptions), acceptance of all possible claims of all possible ideologies and philosophies and practices, is still being touted as the "Indic" way. It leaves the elite free to twist and turn to ensure material wealth and prosperity for personal consumption, share of political power, and free from any negative association connected to their virtual betrayal.

[RamaY]

Exactly the same tactics perhaps still in use - and the reason why "Buddhist" ahimsa, "tolerance" for everything and anything (with some permanent exceptions), acceptance of all possible claims of all possible ideologies and philosophies and practices, is still being touted as the "Indic" way. It leaves the elite free to twist and turn to ensure material wealth and prosperity for personal consumption, share of political power, and free from any negative association connected to their virtual betrayal.

B-ji, added with a narrow-minded explanation of karma-siddhanta; this selective application of Indicness, killed the individual motivation to strive towards social cohesion and well-being. It is very frustrating to see that Indian leadership is yet to realize this connection between individual thought process and national interests.

[naren]

Bji X-post. An interpretation of modern science under the shadow of J-C ethos.....



Link:
http://www.simplyvedic.org/html/literat ... nce-3.html

The practically employed time concept of the modern historical scientist, including the archaeologist, strikingly resembles the traditional Judaeo-Christian time concept. And it strikingly differs from that of the ancient Greeks and Indians.

This observation is, of course, an extreme generalisation. In any culture, the common people may make use of various time concepts, linear and cyclical. And among the great thinkers of any given period, there may be many competing views of both cyclical and linear time. This was certainly true of the ancient Greeks. It can nevertheless be safely said that the cosmological concepts of several of the most prominent Greek thinkers involved a cyclic or episodic time similar to that found in the Puranic literature of India. For example, we find in Hesiod's Works and Days (129-23406-201) a series of ages (gold, silver, bronze, heroic, and iron) similar to the Indian yugas. In both systems, the quality of human life gets progressively worse with each passing age. In On Nature (Fragment 17) Empedocles speaks of cosmic time cycles. In Plato's dialogues there are descriptions of revolving time (Timaeus 38 a) and recurring catastrophes that destroy or nearly destroy human civilisation (Po liticus 268 d ff). Aristotle said in many places in his works that the arts and sciences had been discovered many times in the past (Metaphysics 1074 b 10, Politics 1329 b 25) In the teachings of Pythagoras, Plato, and Empedocles regarding transmigration of souls, this cyclical pattern is extended to individual psychophysical existence.

When Judaeo-Christian civilisation arose in Europe, another kind of time became prominent. This time has been characterised as linear and vectorial. Broadly speaking, this time concept involves a unique act of cosmic creation, a unique appearance of the human kind, and a unique history of salvation, culminating in a unique denouement in the form of a last judgement. The drama occurs only once. Individually, human life mirrored this process; with some exceptions, orthodox Christian theologians did not accept transmigration of the soul.

Modern historical sciences share the basic Judaeo-Christian assumptions about time. The universe we inhabit is a unique occurrence. Humans have arisen once on this planet. The history of our ancestors is regarded as a unique though un-predestined evolutionary pathway. The future pathway of our species is also unique. Although this pathway is officially unpredictable, the myths of science project a possible overcoming of death by biomedical science and mastery over the entire universe by evolving, space-travelling humans. One group, the Santa Fe Institute, sponsor of several conferences on "artificial life," predicts the transferral of human intelligence into machines and computers displaying the complex symptoms of living things (Langton 1991, p.xv) "Artificial life" thus becomes the ultimate transfiguring salvation of our species.

One is tempted to propose that the modern human evolutionary account is a Judaeo-Christian heterodoxy, which covertly retains fundamental structures of Judaeo-Christian cosmology, salvation history, and eschatology while overtly dispensing with the scriptural account of divine intervention in the origin of species, including our own.

This is similar to the case of Buddhism as Hindu heterodoxy. Dispensing with the Hindu scriptures and God concepts, Buddhism nevertheless retained basic Hindu cosmological assumptions such as cyclical time, transmigration, and karma.

Another thing the modern human evolutionary account has in common with the earlier Christian account is that humans appear after the other life forms. In Genesis, God creates the plants, animals, and birds before human beings. For strict literalists, the time interval is short - humans are created on the last of six of our present solar days. Others have taken the Genesis days as ages. For example, around the time of Darwin, European scientists with strong Christian leanings proposed that God had gradually brought into existence various species throughout the ages of geological time until the perfected earth was ready to receive human beings (Grayson 1983). In modern evolutionary accounts, anatomically modern humans retain their position as the most recent major species to occur on this planet, having evolved from preceding hominids within the past 100,000 or so years. And despite the attempts of prominent evolutionary theorists and spokespersons to counteract the tendency, even among evolution scientists, to express this appearance in teleological fashion (Gould 1977, p. 14), the idea that humans are the crowning glory of the evolutionary process still has a strong hold on the public and scientific minds. Although anatomically modern humans are given an age of about 100,000 years, modern archaeologists and anthropologists, in common with Judaeo-Christian accounts, give civilisation an age of a few thousand years, and, again in common with Judaeo-Christian accounts, place its earliest occurrence in the Middle East.

I do not here categorically assert a direct causal link between earlier Judeao-Christian ideas and those of the modern historical sciences. Demonstrating that, as Edward B. Davis (1994) points out in his review of recent works on this subject, needs much more careful documentation than has yet been provided. But the many common features of the time concepts of the two knowledge systems suggest these causal links do exist, and that it would be fruitful to trace connections in sufficient detail to satisfactorily demonstrate this.

There's one important difference between Abrahamic societies and Dharmic societies - belief in reincarnation & Karma.

Dharmic:

* You are responsible for your actions
* The punishment/reward you receive in post-this-life is proportional to your actions
* Life is an unending cycle. The more Karma you create for yourself, the more entangled you are. Hence the highest ideal is to let go off your desires and aim for Moksha/Nirvana.

Abrahamic:

* You must do what your mullah tells you to do. Everything is fine as long as it is sanctioned by your mullah.
* Punishment/reward is disproportional and binary. You either goto heaven or hell.
* You only have one shot at this-life. You have an eternal after life in heaven or hell. Since God is infinitely compassionate and you are so special, God will be kind to you and may wink at your little sins (read genocide, slavery, rape) and give a free pass to eternal life in heaven.

Abrahamic view enforces a sense of desperation to milk the maximum out of this life. Thats why we see some of the most violent societies were spawned from Abrahamic system. Dharmic view gradually tones down the worldly desires and leads people to more philanthropic/idealistic life.

Then there's the new "scientific" view that life is an "accident" caused by freak occurrence in nature. Even this view enforces desperation.

[Prem]

My reverie just got broken with a lovely jingle. Can we have countdown to Dec 14, 2022 here. This one will be economic mark and then onward Dec14,2040 for restoring civilizational mark and by this time all wrongs amended.

[RamaY]

thanks for making it in our life times Prem-ji

[naren]

For a time Jainism also flourished in Maharashtra and Karnataka, under the Kadambas, Gangas, Hoysalas, and Chalukyas and a huge number of Jain shrines and pilgrimage centers are located here. But with the Turk invasion and establishment of the Bahmani Sultanate, Jainism lost its royal patronage and today only marginal communities follow this ancient faith here.

I think Jainism was very popular in TN/Kerala before Adi Shankara. They are called "samana"s in Tamil.

This literature is from Sangam period (600 BCE to 300 CE)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civaka_Cintamani

A king by the name of Caccantan loses himself in sexual enjoyment with his queen and inadvertently gives control of his kingdom to his corrupt minister Kattiyankaran. Kattiyankaran attacks Caccantan, and before the king dies he sends his now pregnant wife away on a flying peacock machine. {The wonderful imagination of our ancestors ! } Exiled in a cremation ground, she gives birth to Civakan, the titular character. Civakan grows up in a merchant's home and becomes the epitome of a Jain hero. He precedes through a number of adventures, marrying numerous women over the course of these events and all the while carrying on an affair with a dancing girl. Eventually, Civakan returns to take vengeance on Kattiyankaran, winning back the throne that is rightfully his. He then marries his eighth and final wife, a personification of omniscience. Soon after he becomes weary of worldly life and, after meeting with Mahavira, he renounces the world.[1]

[brihaspati]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ma ... ks-boycott
Afghan MPs threaten to boycott Hamid Karzai's Taliban peace talks plan

The peace jirga is being touted as one of the critical political events of the coming year. But privately many diplomats say it is likely to be a non-event, during which the delegates will struggle to agree on the hugely controversial issues involved, such as whether the Taliban should be invited to share power or whether the constitution should be amended.

Afghan politicians have also criticised the event for not being truly representative. "They are hand-picked by governors who were picked by the president. These representatives will simply say yes to whatever [Karzai] wants," said Fauzia Kufi, an MP from northern Afghanistan.

Western diplomats who have seen the list of 360 tribal leaders invited to represent the districts say there is a strong Karzai bias. One source said much of the delegation from the critical province of Kandahar will be led by Karzai's half brother and most members were on the president's re-election campaign team.

This should be seen in the light of
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... tan-policy

Liam Fox, the defence secretary, has called for UK troops to be pulled out of Afghanistan 'as soon as possible'. Photograph: Christopher Thomond for the Guardian

In 2006, the then defence secretary, John Reid, said the 3,000-plus British troops the Blair government agreed to deploy to Helmand province would be "perfectly happy" to leave "without firing a shot". The troops were there, he said, to help reconstruct Afghanistan.

Four years later, after the deaths of nearly 300 British troops there, the new defence secretary, Liam Fox, suggests we are not there to reconstruct Afghanistan at all. "We are not in Afghanistan for the sake of the education policy in a broken 13th century country," he told the Times on Saturday. We are there, he said, "so the people of Britain and our global interests are not threatened".

Their intelligence about the situation in southern Afghanistan was scandalously poor. When the soldiers got there, their commanders, fuelled perhaps by a thirst for glory, were persuaded by Afghan ministers and governors to scatter troops to small "forward operating bases" rather than concentrate on a few "ink spots", as classic counterinsurgency doctrine dictates.

Military commanders wanted more troops but defence chiefs did not argue sufficiently robustly with ministers, curiously reluctant to warn their political masters of the dangers they belatedly recognised. Much needed equipment – notably helicopters and armoured vehicles – were not ordered quickly enough and when they were they took a very long time coming. Britain's defence bureaucracy was slow to counter the effect of the Taliban's policy of laying improvised explosive devises (IEDs). The Ministry of Defence (MoD) seemed always to be playing catch-up.

British military commanders do not talk about victory, they do not talk even about success any more. The counterinsurgency against the Taliban and other groups cannot be effective, certainly not by British troops. US commanders, who now have twice as many troops in Helmand, want the British to concentrate on training Afghan forces – a key element of any exit strategy – rather than fighting insurgents.

Britain was not a "global policeman", said Fox, indicating perhaps where the forthcoming strategic defence review is heading.

What took us to realize almost instantaneously here, is taking so late for an "advanced" nation. Even the military strategy employed is now being criticized as dubious and unfit to deal with the Talebs. It reminds me of supposed laughter that was generated for my criticism of the same strategy from claimed but unknown experts. What intrigues me is if that posters comments were true, that military experts did find my comments laughable, what would they think now about this apparent subtle shift of entire blame on to military strategists? If the Indian army had to face the same enemy - Talebs say - would they have done differently from the British or the Americans? As far as my impression goes from that memorable interaction on the forum, there was full "support" for the methodology adopted by the "expeditionary force".

[naren]

British military commanders do not talk about victory, they do not talk even about success any more. The counterinsurgency against the Taliban and other groups cannot be effective, certainly not by British troops. US commanders, who now have twice as many troops in Helmand, want the British to concentrate on training Afghan forces – a key element of any exit strategy – rather than fighting insurgents.

Britain was not a "global policeman", said Fox, indicating perhaps where the forthcoming strategic defence review is heading.

yep. More appropriate title would be "global constable" *bam* thats for colonialism sahib

[naren]

It seems that many biradhers have the notion that Hinduism is against Buddhism. (ref the now deleted flame war in PRC econ thread)

I believe its better for India to form a dharmic axis rather than aligning with others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_reli ... _adherence

Abrahamic vs Dharmic:


I'd like to share my view on the similarities between Hinduism and Buddhism. Biradhers who disagree, pls feel free to put forward your views, may be in distorted history if not appropriate for this thread.

[ramana]

naren, In India Forum I started a thread in 2006 called Interfaith Dialog: Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism

Please read and add to the body of knowledge.

Thanks,

ramana

[naren]

^^^ Thanks for the link Ramana ji, will participate in that discussion.

[brihaspati]

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/ ... ghanistan/
May 26, 2010, 3:14 pm
Commander Cites Progress and Frustration in Afghanistan

General Carter, the commander of British forces in Marja and of NATO forces in southern Afghanistan, was effectively asking for more time to show results in Marja, where clashes between the Taliban and American, British and Afghan forces continue. In February, General Carter predicted that it would take three more months to determine if government efforts after the end of the fighting had won over residents.

Is it possible that the US actually withdraws even earlier than the summer 2011 declared target date? It can cite "improved ground conditions", a coming on board of "good Taleban" and strengthened "Afghan national forces"?

[brihaspati]

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64S0MI20100529
Taliban fighters seize district in east Afghanistan

KUNAR
Sat May 29, 2010 4:37am EDT

KUNAR Afghanistan (Reuters) - Taliban insurgents overran a remote district in eastern Afghanistan after days of heavy fighting in the area, a provincial police official said on Saturday. The battle erupted earlier this week in Barg-i-Matal district of mountainous Nuristan province, a remote area bordering Pakistan, when hundreds of Taliban fighters stormed the district center, said Qasim Payman, police chief of the province. "The police force in the area has tactically retreated from the district after days of fighting," he told Reuters, adding there were no signs of reinforcements despite repeated requests.
[...]
Taliban spokesman Zabihullah Mujahid said insurgents inflicted heavy casualties on Afghan police and villagers fighting them. In October 2009, Taliban insurgents killed eight American soldiers after storming their remote outposts in the Kamdesh district of Nuristan province.

U.S. forces announced plans to withdraw from the area as part commander General Stanley McChrystal's strategy to focus his forces on population centres. Since the withdrawal of foreign troops from Kamdesh and Barg-i-Matal districts, Afghan police say the area is under immense threat from insurgents infiltrating from Pakistan.

U.S. studies options for possible Pakistan attack: report

Sat May 29, 2010 12:13am EDT
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. military leaders are reviewing options for a unilateral strike in Pakistan if there is a successful attack on American soil tied to the country's tribal areas, The Washington Post reported in its Saturday edition.

The newspaper said senior U.S. military officials stressed a possible strike would only be considered under extreme circumstances such as a catastrophic attack that convinced President Barack Obama that the campaign using CIA drone strikes is not working.

The officials said airstrikes would be the most effective option in reducing the threat posed by al-Qaeda and other groups, but the United States must be careful not to damage its military relationship with Pakistan to a point where it cannot be repaired.

Two small but important clues as to how far the Obama admin is getting obstructed in its plans for AFG. The first news shows what happens when the western forces get tied up in formally showing the "cities" clean for the political posturing needed back at home soil to justify all the adventure and withdrawal. I think the pressure on the ground is more than what the Americans are admitting. The timeline for withdrawal and restoring Talibs in part share of government could be changed and brought forward.

[ramana]

Even if its the urban TSP, where RAPE like Shahzad are from, the US will strike the tribal areas for that is where they see their problems in Afghanistan originate.

[Bharath.Subramanyam]

Great discussion on Buddhism. Along time back Ramana had said in a thread:

"And one more request. Can you maplify the adi Sankara part. my brother has a saying "First come the sages and then the invaders follow" meaning the advent of sages weakens the body polity and drops resistance to invaders."

From that time onwards wanted to write about this. Usually in Indian circles we see lynch mobs which will attack if you question their version of history or belief. Now I hope this doesn't set those kinds of mobs on me!

i. The story of Gautama living a life without any knowledge of pain, death, sorrow etc is basically a later day hagiography. He was son of a King and in those days it was mandatory for a prince to undergo upanayana and start learning from a standard teacher the Vedas, sciences, humanities etc.

ii. Concept of Buddha doesn't start from Gautama. He himself says there were many Buddhas before me. Actually in Ramayana (only Valmiki's work is authentic & primordial), when Bharatha comes with the elders of Ayodhya to take Rama back to kingdom, there is a Rishi by name Jabali, who tries to use atheist arguments to bring Rama back to Ayodhya. There the word "Buddha" is used to denote an atheist or a mere intellect. Ramayana condems them.

iii. Gautama wanted to oppose animal sacrifice in Yagnas. But this is very simplistic. People will like to offer in Yagnas what they consume. Gautama doesn't say that monks should not eat meat. Buddhist bhikkus should eat whatever is offered in the biksha. The story is that he died after eating pork that was given to him in biksha. Gautama's sense of ahimsa can not be seen in any Buddhistic country. Every single Buddhistic country is highly meat eating. Instead of stopping animal sacrifice as he had thought, Buddhism made everybody in the society to have huge amounts of meat.

iv. Buddhists feel that if somebody else kills the animals, there is no sin. Also the meat can be eaten as already somebody has butchered it. Many Buddhistic countries imported butchers from other countries for this reason. Even in Tibet, the butchers are all Muslims.

iv. The first five disciples of Gautama in Deer Park of Varanasi (where he gave his first lecture - "Dhamma Chakra Pravathana") were Brahmins. All major Buddhistic pandits like Basabandhu, Nagarjuna (Sunyata), Ashwagosha, Dharmakeerthi were all Brahmins. There is a separate chapter called "Brahmana Vagga", which is Buddha's advice to brahmins.


v. Also early Tripitaka praises Vedic yagnas & Vedic gods. In Dhammapada, there is a chapter in which there is a conversation between Buddha and Brahma. Buddha has neither spoken against nor for Varnashrama dharma.

vi. Gautama was the first once to start a church (sangha). Church and a temple are different. Aim of a church is congregation of faithful and also proselytizing (to keep increasing the flock). He was first one to start the Monkhood (Sanyasa) for everyone. Earlier in Jainism, only some practitioners took to sanyasa and there was no mechanism to give Sanyasa to all (Sanyasa initiation ceremony etc). Also seeing Buddhism, the Jains also started copying the church model.

vii. In Veda Dharma there is no concept of church. Also there is no concept of Sanyasa. (Yes, in Vedic times - Sanyasa Ashrama was not present; it was a much much later day interpolation). Veda Dharma has only Brahmacharya, Grihasta & vanaprasta. There are totally some 700 rishis & rishikas (Yes!, women rishis who gave many parts of Vedas) in the Veda Samhitas (Rig, Yajur & Sama). Not even one of them is a sanyasi. All are married, having children, doing some job etc and yet giving the highest spiritual audition. Nowadays to justify their "sanyasa" stuff, the neo-vedantins & groups quote Brihadaranyaka upanishad and show Sage Yagnavalkya. But there also Sage Yagnavalkya says he is going away for sadhana and it doesn't mention Sanyasa.

viii. A general tendency to negate things in life starts in Indian society. Buddhism was also giving a “feel-good & feel easy” factor. A person has to join the sangha and take monkhood. That person will get food, medicine, cloths, shelter etc free. There is no need to work. Also in the Sangha , a person has to just close his eyes to be seen as meditating. There are no criteria for monkhood. Any body who desires is given.

ix. In comparison, in Veda Dharma a person has to undergo a strict learning process for many years. You have to keep doing rituals everyday so that sadhana is constant. Also you can’t negate the world and be oblivious to the surroundings.

x. Buddha sanghas got into all kind of vices. When the Pallava king in South writes a famous drama, he makes fun of the kind of vices that have become to be part of Buddha Sanghas.

xi. In a sense, Gautama cannot be called spiritualist because Buddhism denies the existence of spirit. Indian tradition started to view Buddhism as just questioning and debating without any spiritual sadhana. Some Hindu traditions wrote that Buddhism is all about confusing ordinary people with questions & ready made simplistic answers.

xii. In Vedic tradition, there is a concept of gradation. Even in sadhana, there are gradations. Person X might be good sadahak, but he could have less experience of the ultimate reality compared to Person Y. Same way Person Z can have more experience of the reality compared to Z. But if a person X thinks that he has seen the ultimate reality and starts a church/religion & combines it with easy life, lot of people will join it. In Vedic tradition, this was avoided as it is not dependent on one individual but the learned spiritual masters will come together and analyzes, discuss with each other. That’s how Kumba Melas originally started.


xiii. Another point to note is that Buddhism holds Dharma to be relative, while Vedic tradition holds Dharma as absolute. Many a times Brihaspati ji says that Indians have lost the tool to evaluate actions. I feel one of the reasons it happened is because of the thought of righteous conduct being relative. Also I feel the concept of Rashtra is absent in Buddhism as compared to Vedas. In Vedas, the people come together to form a Rashtra which includes all the animate & in-animate objects in the geographical boundary. Slowly the concept of Rashtra could have been destroyed and even if you invite or help any foreign forces, due to the thought of ‘Dharma being relative’, one could have justified it.


xiv. Also it seems Buddha sanghas had traders in it and there are inscriptions from Gupta age that talk of donations made by traders to viharas. Also there are inscriptions which talk about donations of statues and grants made by the bhikshus themselves to the monasteries. This is very interesting. This shows that the bhikshus had large wealth at their disposition.

xv. The places India lost out during 7th & 10th century are all places of Buddhistic influence (Gandhara – Kandhahar, Kabul – Zabul, Sindh etc). There is a story during Pushyamitra time that some Buddhist population in North West collaborated with invaders.


xvi. To counter Buddhism, Hindus did lot of work in intellectual arena, debated them etc. Many Buddhist monks reconverted to Vedic path also. This methodology was a very effective but at times it takes a lot of time as it depends upon persuasion, discussions, knowledge etc. It also is not dependent on individuals. There are no sanyasis from the Vedic tradition at this point.

During this period, may be due to the thought of cutting down the time in countering, Hindus also took over the monkhood methodology of Buddhism to have full time figures that the society will venerate and follow.

There is a general tendency in society to appreciate a person (whatever his/her qualification or skill) and venerate him as an Ideal if he says he leaves off everything and says he doesn’t own anything. I think the Hindus copied this model from Buddhism.

The Hindus did it with some differentiation; they didn’t give Sanyasa to everyone. Only a very selected few (one in a million) was given. Also there were no sanghas of monks. Each monk of Hinduism lived separately and did sadhana.


While the acharyas or Hindu leaders gave some kind of vitality back to the society, slowly over the time, general attitude that renouncing the world and running away from life is a great thing, sets in. Also negation of the world, kind of permeated into society.

Also the acharyas did some literature where they justified sanyasa using some pretexts, text torturing etc. So instead of being a short-time tactical response from Hinduism, Sanyasa became a part of tradition in Hinduism & got anidealistic status.

Also many of the stories on the acharyas were all very latter day inventions. For one acharya, the history was written by competing organizations in 18th century.


xvii. When the moral & spiritual leadership of the society is given to Monk who basically has a world negating ideology & who sits as a head of an organization which gets wealth & easy money without any work, that monk will not usually ask the society or guide the people to fight the invader.

[RamaY]

Good post Bharath.Subramanyam garu!

What we need to further strengthen the Arsha-samskriti is supporting civic and industrial structures. I was asking for posters thoughts for a longtime on the modalities of those structures such that the field-level structures can be scaled up to national levels.

[Prem]

Even if its the urban TSP, where RAPE like Shahzad are from, the US will strike the tribal areas for that is where they see their problems in Afghanistan originate.

Trick will be for India to START the action against Paki at the same time.

[brihaspati]

http://www.asianews.it/news-en/State-of ... 18551.html
» 05/31/2010 12:46
ISRAEL - TURKEY
State of alert throughout Israel. "Brink of war or new Intifada"
by Joshua Lapide

Toll from attack rises to 19 dead. Roads to the West Bank and the Gaza crossings closed. Access to Temple Mount mosques forbidden. Raed Salah, Palestinian leader of the northern Israel is seriously hurt. Arab and Israeli strikes in Gaza. Abbas declares three days of mourning and calls the Israeli operation "a massacre". Israel claims aid ships were "a provocation" with links to terrorism. Anti-Israeli demonstrations in Istanbul. Ankara withdraws its ambassador from Tel Aviv.
[...]
According to some Israeli analysts, the incident of the Gaza flotilla is likely to further exacerbate the relationship between Palestinians and Israelis, on the brink of a new, third intifada. An Israeli policeman, speaking to AsiaNews, confirmed the risk of a third intifada, but also added: "We are on the brink of war. There is a fear that Hezbollah front in Lebanon could be sparked again and that anti-Israel demonstrations spread throughout the world. "

Currently there are demonstrations in Turkey, especially Istanbul. The Foreign Ministry urged all Israelis leaving for Turkey to cancel their departure and said he will hold the Ankara government responsible for anything that could happen to Israelis on soil Turkish.

Today Ankara has recalled its ambassador from Tel Aviv.

All anti-Israel forces must be celebrating today. But this "running the blockade" has been planned for a long long time. I know that there are members of this "delegation" who are trained or qualified in social "sciences", including "professional historians". Some of them have been involved from within academia in lobbying for "pro-Palestine" anti-Israel activism. One of my first academic confrontations about history, especially subcontinental history started with members of such a support group for "Palestine".

This same population pretends that what they are driven by are "pure academic" interests and humanitarian concerns. However any criticism of their historical reconstructions are immediately, publicly, and very loudly denounced as "politically motivated". When I raised questions about Palestinian, Arab and Turkish Muslim role of anti-Semitism and typical Islamic Jihadism and riots or genocides in the lead up to 1948, the immediate redneck reaction was "oh dont give that bull**** of Islamic conspiracy". This is the same general support group that also organizes seminars on subcontinental issues where the main obsession appears to be how "assimilative, tolerant and non-militant" Hinduism was in the past and how recently "right-wing Hindu fascists" were "revising Hinduism" for their "sinister political agenda". They dismissed the plight of Kashmiri Pundits as propaganda, all records or claims by Islamists of iconoclasm, genocide, enslavement and ghazwas on non-Muslims of the subcontinent as propaganda or exaggeration. In fact I had a long running debate with someone who dismissed even the extent of atrocities by Pakis and their Muslim accomplices in 71. He wanted to say that what happened was negligible, dismissed all western historians finding support for factuality of genocide, and all others from the subcontinent finding similar "proof" as being politically motivated.

When I raised the issue as to why, if "others" talking history could be driven by "political motives", what made themselves - the professional historians - free of similar political agenda or motive, I was dubbed a "right wing" activist too. Without giving more details, several such groups are represented on the boats.

People here sympathetic towards the "Palestinian cause", do think of the possibility that - the motivations that drive anti-Israel and pro- Palestinian movements in non-Muslim social groups share a certain common underlying political and ideological agenda. Is it possible that those among such "sympathizers" coming from a Christian, European cultural background probably have a twisted and ancient anti-semitic strain masquerading under "humanitariansim"? and those coming from say Indian, "Hindu" background - are doing so from a hidden and twisted interpretation of Marxism?

Early Marxists use Christian, and New-testamental memes widely - especially the "activist" Engels.

Fall of Israel is strategically a disaster for India. Israel absorbs a lot of Islamic attention. Once they are free of that thorn in the side, their full loving hands will move towards India. Now, at this stage, any formation of an independent Palestinian state means one more step in the progress of Islamic Jihad. One more step towards eventual overrunning of Israel. One more point bolstering the confidence and clamour in Pakis about "Kashmir". And those talking of Turkey being a non-serious site for non-virulent Islamism and rather a "pretender" should also carefully watch what they say from now on. Their words may come back to haunt them in the future.

[Carl_T]

Now why would they move towards India? There are plenty of people they can pick fights with...They've had plenty of opportunity to mobilize en masse towards taking Kashmir by now, decades in fact. The only Islamists that truly care about Kashmir are in Pakistan, that is why TSP has to keep mentioning Kashmir along with Palestine as another legitimate cause for Islamic attention.

[Prem]

B sir jee,
ISrael cannot fall, if it does then it will take big chunck of Ummah with it . ISrael cant be neutralize with fake peace as both parties know the hellish "monotheistic godly" intentions of each other. And even if it falls , it will just provide us the oppertunity the clean the left out filthy neighborhood. Since they are gonna come after us afterward then israeli might as well move to india again with all of their strategic strength to add strength . But regardless ,my hunch is , soon there cometh epoch changing/making events which will wash out the Adhrama like the CS of BJ Bhutto. We will witness the new cherished era in our own life time. The rise of Indic is inevitable and like in past ,it will have special mission to accomplish . Looking back at the time line of Indics from 12th to 17th Century , onward to 20th and current 21st will culminate into the "right stuff" conclusion. Seems events will move at much faster pace after 2020-2030 time line. By this time the inning of all kind of Pseudos would have come to end in the land of Aryas.

[ramana]

Bji, Anti_Zionist, Pro Palestine all are different flavors of anti-Semitism. As Shakespeare said a rose by any name smells the same. Same way any flavor of anti-Jewish anti-Semitism is passed off as liberal protest.

I don't trust the derivative religions.

[Carl_T]

Bji, Anti_Zionist, Pro Palestine all are different flavors of anti-Semitism. As Shakespeare said a rose by any name smells the same. Same way any flavor of anti-Jewish anti-Semitism is passed off as liberal protest.

I don't trust the derivative religions.

Anti-Zionism when it exists in the ME is anti Semitism. Anti-Zionism when it happens in the west is a combination of neo-Marxism and Islam-love.

[brihaspati]

So how many Pakis were there in the flotilla - and what sort of peace they were aiming for?
http://www.thenews.com.pk/updates.asp?id=105833
FM calls on US to help recover Pakistanis after Israel raid

Updated at: 2140 PST, Monday, May 31, 2010

ISLAMABAD: Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi has called upon United States to use its influence for the recovery of Pakistani nationals who were aboard Freedom Flotilla. Interacting with media persons here on Monday, Qureshi said he has contacted Holbrooke on phone on the issue of recovery of Talat Hussain.

“Pakistan’s ambassador to Jordam, Oman, Lebano and European Union have been asked to collect information about whereabouts of Pakistanis. The foreign minister said that an emergency meeting of the OIC should be called to slam deadly Israeli raid that killed up to 19 pro-Palestinians peace activists.

About Talat’s safety, he said the government has not been able to collect any information in this connection.

[brihaspati]

Frankly, where does a starving siege economy desperaetly short of essentials for life - actually not trade out what little gold they have for food etc., but find money to buy more?
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2010/0 ... -gaza.html

Gold boom in Gaza (updated)

From Al Arabiya:

Gaza's borders are closed and its economy in shambles, but the glittering alleys of the territory's centuries-old gold bazaar are packed with young brides to be. The market has experienced an unlikely renaissance in recent years as Gaza's Hamas rulers have championed weddings and Israeli closures have crippled the local economy, making gold an attractive investment.

"Not only have we not been hurt by the Israeli blockade, but our business has actually gotten better," gold merchant Iyad Basal says as people cram into his crowded family-run shop. "We have not stopped working since the blockade because the gold comes to us through smuggling and Hamas encourages marriage," he adds.

Others have jewelry brought in through the Erez pedestrian crossing with Israel, which is usually open to foreign journalists, aid workers and Palestinians with special permits. Hamas has encouraged marriage by holding mass weddings, running a matchmaker service for war widows and other poor girls and giving financial support to thousands of young men hoping to settle down.

[Sanku]

Brihaspati Mahodaya, in line with your prior expectations.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/259096/The- ... roots.html
The grass has now grown deep roots

Chandan Mitra

Personally, campaigning for the BJP, not much of a factor in West Bengal yet, was a satisfactory experience because I was surprised by the level of acceptability the party has suddenly acquired. Everybody expects the CPI(M)’s iron-grip over the State to collapse in a year from now, thereby opening up the field for more players. Defeatism is writ large on the face of the CPI(M) cadre and many musclemen who prospered under its rule for over three decades are rapidly jumping ship and swimming across to Trinamool’s welcoming galley. If the CPI(M) collapses in a big way, as widely predicted in the aftermath of the 2011 poll, I believe parties like the BJP, which at one point polled 11.6 per cent of the popular vote, will gain a foothold in the State where it has never won a Lok Sabha seat since 1952, when Bharatiya Jana Sangh’s founder Syama Prasad Mookerjee and another BJS candidate were elected to Parliament.

[ramana]

Caste has become a cast in many of the states by way of regional parties.

[Prem]

The fall of Red was predicted right here on the Forum: After passing the Nuke deal , it was obvious Indian political lanscape will be reshaped to suit certain interests . In this case , Red going dead is good for India .

[Sanku]

The fall of Red was predicted right here on the Forum: After passing the Nuke deal , it was obvious Indian political lanscape will be reshaped to suit certain interests . In this case , Red going dead is good for India .

No it is its possible repercussions that Brihspati was talking of in particular.

[ramana]

Don't write off the red yet. There might be tactical alliances to keep them in power.

[Prem]

Red as tool to enhance Indian intrests, international bargaining position is good but not as an Independent force working to undercut Indian economic growth of which they have have shown the tedency many time. If nationalisic powers gain in Bengal at the cost of Red then it cant be bad for Desh.

[Brad Goodman]

The fall of Red was predicted right here on the Forum: After passing the Nuke deal , it was obvious Indian political lanscape will be reshaped to suit certain interests . In this case , Red going dead is good for India .

More than the political red which is as worse as Laloo Mulayam Mayawati or Karunanidhi in its actions I am worried about the intellectual red the romila thapar kind of snakes we have been nurturing in our DNA. Unless we can perform a complete chemotherepy to get rid of WKK commies from our midst we can never really get to the roots of our culture. These guys are worst than McCulay himself.

[brihaspati]

The "reds" were going down definitely - this was my prediction before the election of 2009. But the main issues here I will recall again and request everyone to think deeply on. I had written in details as to why - which particulars and peculiarities of "parliamentary left" organization would ensure this. But at this critical stage of India's existence, what is important is the impact and ramifications into the future.

(1) I have held from early 2009, that Bengalis can be highly subversive politically, and they will or can overturn established regimes overnight. They did so in the late 60's, they did it again in 77. This time around, they would vote for TMC because they wanted to make sure that there was a tie-up with the dynasty at the centre so that the Congress did not play its shortcut regional politics of arrangements with regional satraps whereby dynasty enjoys power at the centre and the regional satraps do what they want.

Once the Congress centre backup was ensured they would almost overnight crash the regime. In the late 90's I had an intense debate in some committees where I had predicted that it will take another decade for the fall to manifest. The muscle and "electorally efficient" comrades then favourites of mid-range leadership would begin to abandon ship and change sides. People will suddenly vote on the others side. I was the lone voice at that level, because the majority thought as the "boss" thought. Bosses were limited by their regional origins, their polishing at the hands of previous bosses also limited by their regional origins, so a comprehensive understanding and feeling for entire India was lacking. These bosses were typically from student movements based at the unis - and lived in a world (and still do) of their own dreaming. So it was impossible that they would understand the trends in Bengal.

(2) However, the Congress's main aim is to keep the Bengalis weak at national political level (nothing personal - same probably goes for any region the ND clique thinks is potentially challenging, Andhra, Maha, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu). They hope to weaken both Left and MB through a war of attrition so that as in the past, some tired faction would run to Delhi. This is why, the Congress will not want the Left to be wiped off completely.

(3) MB is trying to pre-empt the process in her own aggressive way. But this is from her long activist experience which she is yet to transition from. Problem is it is critical that she maintains the veneer of Congress central tie-up - especially a visible rapport with SG. The Bengalis would want to be assured that the Centre was not going to backhand MB and support the Left covertly. But I feel the critical "crossing the Rubicon" has already been done by the majority of the electorate there. So, short of massive EVM "malfunction" Left is going to be history for a short while. This is a subtle hint for those tempted to pray for such "malfunctions" not to do so - the Bengalis appear to have a long memory, and the Congress's behaviour with its favourite leaders and the merry dance under SSR during the Emergency is yet to be forgotten.

(4) MB can yet change directions, and BJP should not give up wooing her. Such wooing may not appear to be successful immediately, but will strengthen MB's hands against the Cong and the Left.

(5) MB, cannot afford right at the moment to be siding with saffron. All three aspirants think - or have been led to think - that they are kaput without Islamist vote. All three will compete with each other in promising more to Muslims in WB. This is the real danger in WB.

(6) Once the Left falls, and all three join pandering to Islamic votes, the international and internal move towards destabilization of the Gangetic plains will have a field day. When the Left falls, think again who will fill the vacuum. Islamist underground will strengthen together with the Maoists. They will also be joined by disillusioned radicals from within the current "Left".

(7) None of the three above has the vision, understanding or political postures to withstand the Islamist+Maoist threat in WB. This is both a tragedy as well as opportunity for the Right. But this will take another 10 to 15 years to manifest fully.

[Pranav]

IMO, western elites would like to have a stable two-party scenario in India, with both parties controlled by them. There seem to be elements of the BJP that would be happy to fall in line, but the BJP is not an entirely tamed entity. It seems that Sushma Swaraj would be acceptable, but the RSS faction as represented by Gadkari is not.

See Does India Still Need a Hindu Nationalist Party? - http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... list_party

What we are likely to see is a gradual cutting down of regional Satraps through manipulation of electoral machinery, and also efforts to change the complexion of the BJP.

Note that when 13 parties recently wrote to the EC expressing no-confidence in EVMs, the BJP was not one of the signatories. As per Chaiwallah, inside the BJP, Sushma seems to be pro-EVM.

At this point of time, the regional parties still have enough clout to force a change. But one would imagine that many regional Satraps live in terror of their illicit foreign assets being exposed. In another 10 years they may be reduced to irrelevance.

Another major trend is the proliferation of controlled media in vernacular languages.

[brihaspati]

I agree that some external interests will be keen to see a two party system which will be easier to control.
But I see that there is going to be problem because India will now be the contest field of battle between three external forces - the Islamist Jihadis, the Christian Evangelical Jihadis, and Communist Jihadis. Behind each are one or more countries or groupings based in such countries and perhaps even covert linkages to the secret services of those countries. Ecah of them are using the ideological excuse as a cover for their respective business, and global imperialist ambitions or interests.

In the presence of such competition, they are likely to try and hold on to regional power bases, and fight central control. So if any force is "represented" at the centre, factions within the same broad ideology opposed to the one holding central seat of power will encourage all possible means for the regional power where they are present or already have a stake, to fight for greater independence within the framework of the nation.

So both Islamist and Communist Jihadis in WB will support MB. In AP, EJ's will support whoever promises to be a likely candidate unacceptable to the centre. Should not be surprised if NCP makes good showing in Maha in certain regions. Etc.

[Pranav]

x-post from Indian interests thread.

Same old problem of chicken and egg. If correct leadership only can create the correct system which only can create the correct leadership, neither correct leadership nor correct system can ever be.

This is a classic problem of transition of societies from one system to another. Nowehere in the world it has been achieved democratically. Transitions of societies always take place under dictatorial conditions. That dictatorship could be that of an individual, or a party, or even an external force. The key factor is that the dictatorial entity wants to change the system and it is not dependent on the major portion of the system it wants to change, for its power to change the system.

Every histroical change one can think of as proper examples of profoundly changing systems, will always throw up this "dictatorial" angle.

Not necessarily B ji. Consider Turkey, which has transitioned from being controlled by a secular Military (allegedly dominated by the Donmeh crypto-Shabbatian sect), and allied with Israel and the US, to a more traditionalist government more reflective of the Anatolian peasantry and conservative middle classes.

But the key thing for peaceful change is a genuine democracy, which cannot be guaranteed under an electronic voting regime.

A prime example of how unpopular and undemocratic governments can sustain themselves for decades is the Iranian theocracy.

Would strongly recommend this book: Hostage to Khomeini by Robert Dreyfuss (1980). Available for download at http://www.archive.org/download/Hostage ... ostage.pdf

It is well known that the overthrow of the democratic Mosaddegh govt in 1953 was sponsored by western elites. This book describes how the overthrow of the Shah, and the installation of Khomeini too, was supported by the same forces.

This book is particularly valuable for its close-up look at the techniques of revolution - provoking unrest, mass manipulation via the media, creation of economic crises, how the loyalty of key persons in the armed forces was turned, how uncooperative personnel were assassinated, how arms depots were captured, and how even those that cooperated with the revolution were liquidated in its aftermath.

Also useful are the insights it offers into the mindset of the western elites.

There are many similarities between the Indian political elites of today, and the feckless regime of the Shah of Iran.

[ramana]

Great resource. Thanks, ramana

[svinayak]

It is well known that the overthrow of the democratic Mosaddegh govt in 1953 was sponsored by western elites. This book describes how the overthrow of the Shah, and the installation of Khomeini too, was supported by the same forces.

This is very important one. The same force wanted overthrow of Shah and the main reason which is not even mentioned anywhere was that he wanted to trade oil in currency other than dollar and he may wanted to support the soviet union.

[ramana]

The good thing for the TPS is its multisectarian country wtih no single mullah as a leader. Hafiz Saeed is minor thug. Does he have US Links?

[brihaspati]

The recent fiasco in the "Gaza adventure" throws up in sharp light the current tomfoolery that is being played on Asia. Since the fall of USSR there was a temporary lull in pandering to Islamist violence from the west. Within that space, the Jihadis consolidated and turned their attention from Russia towards their real objectives in Asia - Israel and India. They intensified their campaign against India with Jammu and Kashmir, and their rocket/bombing campaigns against Israelis, from both within Lebanon and the Gaza strip.

Their real ambitions is for global domination, and the real long term targets for Islam - militant Jihad and Ghazwas to convert, loot, rape and take over non-muslim majority nations. This became clear to the racially and colour blinded ideology of the west only when the Jihadis turned their attention directly to pricking the west, as part of their global strategy to tie down western forces away from any protective interest the west may develop for Israel and India.

The calculations were quite clear and as consistently seen in the tactics of Islamist groups ranged against their Asian targets.

(1) Carry out terroristic outrages against both military and civilians of Israel and India, so that the military of these nations are forced to react. Use the terror attacks to stimulate survivor instincts within the civilians in the hope that they will create political pressure on their governments not to retaliate. Use the internationally conformed limitations within which national armies have to work as a tactical field advantage.

(2) Pressurize muslims living within the territory of these nations to take sides, which in the ultimate analysis has always been historically proved to be on the position that "jihad cannot or should not be opposed violently" by Muslims anywhere. In every situation of war or conflict where Islamism has taken up arms to subjugate non-muslims among them or beside them, the Muslim population has never ever really taken any effective steps to resist such Jihadi outrages on non-Muslims. In ME, in now Pakistan occupied western India, or in then East Pakistan now Bangladesh in 1971, large Muslim populations which apparently showed all outward forms of communal amity did not do anything to stop Jihadi outrages on non-Muslims and in many instance took advantage of the situation to possess land, wealth and women of non-Muslims. This practice is consistent with the basic line of Islamist expansion as formulated in their core texts.

(3) Simultaneously carry out a publicity campaign among western nations - especially those in academia and media who for various reasons have had anti-establishment fantasies all the while being sustained by the establishment. There have always been a toying undercurrent with Marxist thinking in the west, especially in the British universities beginning in the post war radicalism phase of 60's. Probably this was maintained out of two tactical considerations by the authorities - as a honey trap to confine radical intellectuals so that they did not go out to do more damage in the outer world, and at the same time work as a captive experiment where the Leftist thought process could be observed and manipulated. Problem with this game is that it basically creates a reward system for radicalism and anti-establishment sentiments which over time will draw more and more opportunist political activists who will use this legitimacy to carry out their personal political agendas.

The Islamists used this sympathetic base from within the western establishment. It was natural that with the fall of the USSR and an overtly nationalistic and dictatorial redefinition under Putin the western establishment radicals were without a cause to champion. This they now found in championing the cause of supposedly repressed Islamic communities under Israel and India.

(4) To drive home the Islamist representation of reality, Islamists selectively targeted western institutions with violence. Having placed a pro-Islamist radical western sympathy base among the very vocal academia, media, NGO's, charities etc, such targeting could be used to pretend that all this was because the west was not doing enough to destroy Israel and India or dismember these countries so that the Jihadis could occupy the dismembered portions. The general risk avoidance of the civilian populations of prosperous economies would ensure that there would be a backlash against any government retaliation.


(5) Once the western core of governments or regimes realized the new trends, the policy formulated was perhaps two pronged : give the Jihadis a new target of shifting attention towards Russia in chechnyia and adjoining muslim dominated areas sensitive for Russian security, and towards Eastern Turkmenistan currently under Chinese occupation. Simultaneously, overt pressure would be put on both India and Israel to concede more towards Islamist demands. It is possible that the first hesitant and obviously confused (read secret intense debate and therefore indecision) implementation of this policy was in the Balkans with the ultimate creation of a Muslim homeland within Europe.

(6) The success of the Croatian case showed the Jihadis the way forward, and they now know almost all the manipulative strings that they can use to pressurize the west into conceding more and more Islamist homelands carved out of non-Muslim dominated areas, from where they will launch more and more Jihadi campaigns.

The western strategists are losing this game. It is crucial that Israel and Indian people do not get confused by the manipulative propaganda and representations of Islamists and their non-muslim sympathizers, and see to it that regimes capable of resisting western pressures are put in government.

The national armies and even special intervention forces have to work under international forms and restrictions that will be stringently applied by Islamists and their sympathizers for their ulterior motives. In both countries there should be targeted erasure of the sources of support for Jihad, or all anti-state terror under forces that do not officially exist. Forces which also have strong ideological indoctrination to add that extra armour to manipulation. Forces which do not exist and therefore are free of formal restrictions of so-called one-sided humanitarianism.

[brihaspati]

Afghan jirga agrees on peace moves with Taliban
http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/Af ... 27129.html

Eshaq Gailani, a member of parliament and a strong supporter of Mr. Karzai's former presidential rival Abdullah Abdullah, who boycotted the jirga also did not attend, despite his invitation as a parliamentarian. He says the jirga's declaration focuses too much on old points, such as freeing so-called political prisoners from jail and removing names from a United Nations embargo list.
[...]
Haroun Mir with Afghanistan's Center for Research and Policy Studies agrees with Gailani and points to a requirement in the resolution that it be part of the agenda at next month's international conference in Kabul.
[...]
He says that in the previous conference on Afghanistan held in London, Mr. Karzai requested $1 billion for his Taliban reintegration project, but countries only committed $150 million. By using the jirga resolution, Mir says President Karzai wants to pressure donors to get more money.The resolution calls for the formation of an Afghan commission to lead the peace effort with insurgents who do not have foreign ties. Several times during the jirga, speakers reached out to the Taliban and the rival insurgent faction of Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, Hezb-e-Islami.

So the timeline is coming forward.